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Post by scarletflames on Nov 2, 2021 0:32:31 GMT -5
I haven't read Leopardstar's Honor yet, but I've read TPB, Mistystar's Omen, and ASiR, and am beginning to read Blackfoot's Reckoning.
I dislike Leopardstar because of how she handled the Stonefur situation. Even though in Mistyatar's Omen, Mistystar forgave her and viewed her as a mother figure, and even though she apologized to Feathertail in ASiR, I still cannot bring myself to like Leopardstar or forgive her. I understand she wasn't the one who killed Stonefur, but she made no attempt to defend him. If she stood up for Stonefur (and by extention, Featherpaw and Stormpaw), I'd consider it honorable and the right thing to do from an ethical standpoint. I understand this could lead to Tigerstar turning against her and taking all of her lives, then attacking those cats anyway. But I would consider that outcome better than the leader of Riverclan doing nothing to stop her deputy from getting murdered... because he refused to kill Riverclan apprentices.
Blackfoot's actions that day were terrible, but I feel less harsh towards him in that situation. As a reader, I have an easier time forgiving him. It felt like Blackfoot has less power than Leopardstar in that situation, even though he was the one who carried out the war atrocity, Leopardstar was the one who gave him permission to do so. Plus, a clan leader's word is law, and Tigerstar was leader of Shadowclan. With Tigerstar ordering him to attack Stonefur, and Leopardstar allowing it to happen, he was ordered by one leader, and enabled by the other. It doesn't make his actions right, but I find it easier to understand.
It's a little hard for me to wrap my head around the fact Mistystar, Feathertail and Stormfur all forgave Leopardstar, but not Blackstar. I understand Leopardstar directly apologized to all of them, and made amends, but I feel she was just as guilty, if not more so, than Blackfoot that day.
Comparing what I've read of Blackfoot's Reckoning so far, with how Blackfoot was treated, with ASiR and Mistyfoot's Omen with how Leopardstar was treated, it seems like Leopardstar was more easily respected and trusted. It's a bit confusing for me, since I hold Leopardstar and Tigerstar more responsible than Blackstar. Maybe I have an unpopular opinion on this matter? So I decided to make this poll. I'm going to vote "I couldn't forgive either" (most likely would be my reaction), and "I'd only forgive Blackstar" (2nd most likely reaction).
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 2, 2021 0:38:46 GMT -5
I would be more willing to forgive Blackstar. Technically, his only loyalty was to Shadowclan. Leopardstar was supposed to protect her own clan as leader...and she failed 10x over and it led to cats dying.
On top of that, I like that Blackstar is never completely forgiven by those he DID wrong. It feels more realistic than Leopardstar almost immediately being forgiven by everyone but Feathertail (she took awhile and rightfully so)
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Post by cable on Nov 2, 2021 0:39:52 GMT -5
i think the issue i have with leopardstar is that even tho she always says she regrets being terrible, she continues to act terrible given the chance. she wanted to flee from scourge and firestar had to strongarm her into fighting him in tpb. she refused to leave despite twoleg expansion and put her clan at risk in tnp. she joined the assault on thunderclan for literally no reason that included a direct attack on the camp in pot. she behaved selfishly over the drought in oots. blackstar at least was more agreeable in tnp and stood by thunderclan in pot, and didnt argue much against sending warriors out to get rid of the dam in oots. even if hes had his faults and is shady, he feels more like he actually tried to reform and wasnt just paying lipservice to the reader.
edit: also, what ottersplash said. leopardstar had more responsibility towards riverclan and had more power, and ls didnt do her any favors on her pov during stonefurs death. her internal dialogue was so rancid in that moment. and blackstar was generally held more accountable than leopardstar, who was forgiven completely.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2021 0:41:18 GMT -5
Blackstar
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Nov 2, 2021 1:41:37 GMT -5
I really want to forgive Leopardstar, I really do...
I feel like Leopardstar's Honor gave her a better storyline, and it made me really like her, but I can't forgive her. It's not that I hate her, but she should have actually shown change. Blackstar is a very obvious 'I will forgive you'. He was loyal to ShadowClan and his leaders, and when he became leader, he was a good one. He really had character development, unlike Leopardstar.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 2, 2021 5:27:11 GMT -5
Well her SE only showed her from the start, to her climb toward her horribly dark and ambitious actions, and then the regret that followed. It didn't exactly show her full redemption (which was shown somewhat already in the main series), so it probably didn't sit well with fans in a "good light". Personally I enjoyed her SE though. But with that being said, I feel like this poll is going to easily be one-sided, simply with Blackstar popular in general, he's always been more favored over Leopardstar in the fandom after all, regardless of his crimes.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Nov 2, 2021 7:45:54 GMT -5
I agree. And maybe it comes from reading Blackfoot's Reckoning, but I find Blackfoot a lot more forgivable. Yes, he did a lot of horrible things - stealing kits from ThunderClan's nursery, helping drive WindClan out, helping to murder Stonefur. And these are all awful, there is no excuse for that. But at the same time, he was acting under the orders of his leader. He was, technically, following the warrior code, in the most awful way - "The word of the Clan leader is the warrior code". And he thought he was doing what was best for ShadowClan. No, that certainly doesn't excuse his actions, but it makes me willing to give him a second chance. And then, once Blackstar became leader of ShadowClan, he really changed his ways. No, he wasn't a perfect leader (the whole Sol fiasco), but at least he was a generally good leader for ShadowClan - and the first one they'd had in a long while.
Leopardstar, on the other hand, should never have surrendered her Clan to Tigerstar to begin with. She had a choice. Had she never combined forces with Tigerstar, there's a good chance a lot of the bad things from TPB never would have happened. I do enjoy Leopardstar's Honor, but it doesn't make her actions any more forgivable. She should have listened to Mudfur from the beginning, she should've trusted her medicine cat's guidance. And when she realized Tigerstar was beginning to take over control from her, she had the opportunity to back out. Yes, it would've been risky, but it would've been possible - surely ShadowClan and RiverClan were an even match for each other. The only time I can understand her being truly afraid of Tigerstar and standing with him despite what she was thinking is when BloodClan joined them at Fourtrees the day TigerClan confronted ThunderClan and WindClan. But even after the battle with BloodClan and Tigerstar's demise, Leopardstar still continued to make bad choices. By that point, she should've known that there need to be four Clans, but she is still reluctant to leave the forest territories in TNP. She allowed Hawkfrost to get out of control and boss her around a bit once they reached the lake territories, driving Stormfur and Brook out of RiverClan - likely because Hawkfrost reminded her of Tigerstar.
I find both of their actions despicable, but ultimately, I agree that Blackstar is significantly more forgivable than Leopardstar. When it comes down to it, Leopardstar had a lot more ability to get out of the situation than Blackstar, and ultimately I feel like Blackstar was truly redeemed, whereas Leopardstar's redemption is a lot hazier.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Nov 2, 2021 8:48:48 GMT -5
Being the person I am, I wouldn't be able to forgive either.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2021 11:35:05 GMT -5
I honestly don't think Blackstar should be forgiven simply because he wasn't in power. Leopardstar's se shows that she had almost no power in tigerclan either, so while she is at fault for joining with tigerstar, she and blackstar are about equally accountable for me. Blackstar also willingly followed brokenstar twice. Additionally, I find that people ignore the Sol thing when talking about Blackstar as a leader.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Nov 2, 2021 17:28:04 GMT -5
I honestly don't think Blackstar should be forgiven simply because he wasn't in power. Leopardstar's se shows that she had almost no power in tigerclan either, so while she is at fault for joining with tigerstar, she and blackstar are about equally accountable for me. Blackstar also willingly followed brokenstar twice. Additionally, I find that people ignore the Sol thing when talking about Blackstar as a leader. That wasnt exactly a bad/sinful/unforgivable thing he did by losing faith in StarClan imo. He isnt the first leader to do so...and Sol is extremely manipulative
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 2, 2021 18:12:02 GMT -5
I don't think I'd be able to forgive either cat completely but I would probably tolerate Blackstar a lot more.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Nov 2, 2021 21:21:13 GMT -5
As a reader I can forgive them both. As an in-universe cat I would have a hard time forgiving either.
That being said, Blackstar is far more redeemed than Leopardstar in my eyes, for a lot of the reasons people have already said. Additionally, I feel like Blackstar's novella did a way better job of portraying his regret than Leopardstar's did hers? Like Leopardstar seems to think she was just another one of Tigerstar's victims and like she had no agency in the situation, whereas Blackstar, who had less agency than her*, admits "yeah, I could have just not done that". And that makes a ton of difference to me.
*Not saying Blackfoot had zero agency, just that he had less than Leopardstar
But also, Leopardstar is a good character, not in spite of but because of her floppy redemption, ironically. She's realistic and complex, and her redemption not being perfect and the fact that she's still kind of shitty even though she's technically regretful of her mistakes makes her a good character, even if she's a bad person (cat).
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 3, 2021 11:23:18 GMT -5
I agree with Skypaw13 on the matter of me being able to forgive Leopardstar and Blackstar as a reader but not if I was a character in the series they effected with their crimes (Stonefur, Mistyfoot, Stormfur, Feathertail mostly). That being said, I'm rather neutral on both of them now but still hope Stonefur never forgives either of them fully.
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