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Post by Aqua on Oct 11, 2021 12:47:39 GMT -5
Character Topic: Ivypool.
Ivypool's story started off of both sisters getting along and feeling excited at the thought of becoming warriors. Shortly after this, Dovekit started to hear things from far away, and scenting things at a distance like the fire in the camp. When they both became apprentices, Dovepaw was really good at hunting, and cats like Blossompaw preferred Dovepaw over Ivypaw because of her powers. This made Ivypaw feel jealous of her sister, and she started to train in the Dark Forest because Hawkfrost lied to her, promising one thing that Ivypaw wanted the most: to become better than her sister, a great warrior for her clan.
Ivypaw began to train with Hawkfrost, meeting new cats in the Dark Forest. Her jealousy grew worse over time and she stopped talking to her as much. She was getting bullied by Blossompaw, which only made her insecurities worse because of Blossompaw's comparison. She trusted Hawkfrost. Hawkfrost gave her the attention and praise that Ivypaw needed, and she continued to train there and became stronger because of the Dark Forest training.
Ivypaw eventually caught Dovepaw with Tigerheart and Tigerheart used Ivypaw as a tool to get herbs from Jayfeather so he can save Littlecloud's life. Ivypaw was angry at Dovepaw for this, for telling a ShadowClan cat about the precious catmint the clan hardly had. She was angry at her sister and angry at Tigerheart about the herbs and being held hostage.
But then, Ivypaw discovered that Hawkfrost and Tigerstar were lying to her. They didn't care about her feelings; they only cared that she was jealous, and used that insecurity against her, picking at it and manipulating it until she drove herself farther away from her sister, convincing herself she's doing this for the sake of her clan and for wanting to be better than her sister. When she realized the truth about their true intentions, Ivypaw told Dovepaw, and both sisters told Jayfeather and Lionblaze. The three asked Ivypaw to spy for the clans because she was stuck there and the Dark Forest trusted her as one of them, and Ivypaw agreed to this promise to report everything she learned.
After Ivypool got her name, she grew closer to Dovewing and they were finally getting along after she understood why Dovewing was the "special" one in her clan. Dovewing had confessed her powers to her sister, and Ivypool finally understood that Dovewing was born with a special prophecy to save the clans. Ivypool still continued to train in the Dark Forest, but she did it for her sister and the clans. She continued to train there.
Ivypool began to report to Firestar before the Great Battle started about everything she learned, and she also convinced the trainees to fight for the clans, going against the Dark Forest. Hollyleaf sacrificed her life to save Ivypool's, and she and Brambleclaw avenged the black warrior's death by killing Hawkfrost.
Ivypool eventually returned to regular clan life after the Great Battle. In DS, she helped the clans understand why the trainees wanted to be in the Dark Forest, and they were forgiven for it. Ivypool lived her life with ThunderClan and her sister once more, no longer worrying about the Dark Forest or the Great Battle, having a happy life with her family and sister. She overcame her own insecurities, understood that Dovewing was involved with a special prophecy, and helped the three understand what was going on in the Dark Forest.
Later in the series after the Dark Forest events, Ivypool began to grow fond of a character named Fernsong. They both flirted for a while and hunted, and had a conversation of having kits together. Ivypool hesitated for a little while, then accepted having a litter with him.
Ivypool eventually caught Dovewing seeing Tigerheart again, and was angry at her for returning to him and breaking the warrior code and lying to her clan. She tried to tell Dovewing to stop seeing Tigerheart, but Dovewing didn't listen. Ivypool got angry at her sister for this and stopped talking to her, calling off Tigerheart's treatment toward Dovewing in Tigerheart's Shadow. Dovewing had disappeared for several moons, with Ivypool and her clan thinking she was dead. When Dovewing returned, Ivypool was happy to see her, and both sisters shower off their new litter of kits together. But Dovewing told her sister that she wanted to leave for ShadowClan, which disappointed Ivypool greatly. Ivypool understood that Dovewing wanted to be with her family, but she will always be disappointed in her sister for betraying her clan and leaving them for Tigerheart.
Ivypool continued to live her life and accepted Dovewing moving to ShadowClan with Tigerheart. She has a family of her own, along with Birchfall and Whitewing.
So what do you think? This all came from my own head and memory of Ivypool's moments with her clan, and I'm not including her moments with Tigerheart in OotS as much, or her moments with Bristlefrost in TBC, because I feel they aren't very significant to mention.
For me personally, while there's others done so much better than Ivypool, she's fine. Ivypool is a decent character with an okay backstory, even if jealousy is a little overdone in many other books. She's rather predictable, but a character like this in the warriors series, I think Ivypool is decent. Her character and her story does have some issues, but they're pretty minor compared to other characters.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 11, 2021 12:52:06 GMT -5
shes not a bad character. there’s just not a lot to her, imo.
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Post by cable on Oct 11, 2021 12:54:48 GMT -5
from a writing perspective? shes fine. kind of above average for this series, actually. id have to re-read oots for a more in-depth opinion, but shes p good from what i recall.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 11, 2021 13:08:31 GMT -5
Yes, she is. Although some of Ivypool's story in regards to the DF spying could have definitely been expanded on.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 11, 2021 13:29:03 GMT -5
shes not a bad character. there’s just not a lot to her, imo. Yeah. She's okayish compared to the others, like Jayfeather and Hollyleaf. She really didn't have that many chapters in her story, whereas Dovewing had plenty of chapters more to her character than Ivypool. Maybe I'll count how many she had. Curious now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 13:36:51 GMT -5
Yes
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Post by Aqua on Oct 11, 2021 13:40:02 GMT -5
I just counted: Ivypool has around 20 chapters in Omen of the Stars, including some lines in BrS, TBC, DS, and possibly other books, but she's rarely shown.
That's... so little compared to Dovewing's moments she's had in the books. No wonder Ivypool's story isn't all that fantastic, wheras they could've done so much more with Dovewing's growth, considering she had way more moments than Ivypool. What a waste. Now I'm curious about how many chapters Dovewing has had compared to Ivypool, lol. Maybe I'll do that later.
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Aroace
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Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 11, 2021 13:55:23 GMT -5
I just counted: Ivypool has around 20 chapters in Omen of the Stars, including some lines in BrS, TBC, DS, and possibly other books, but she's rarely shown. That's... so little compared to Dovewing's moments she's had in the books. No wonder Ivypool's story isn't all that fantastic, wheras they could've done so much more with Dovewing's growth, considering she had way more moments than Ivypool. What a waste. Now I'm curious about how many chapters Dovewing has had compared to Ivypool, lol. Maybe I'll do that later. I still think that the OotS arc had way too many perspectives crammed into it. Jayfeather, Lionblaze, Dovewing, Ivypool and Flametail for a few chapters was just overcrowded. If they had not given Flametail any sort of PoV and given that time to develop Ivypool further instead it already could have helped at least a little. Each of the six books has either four or even five point of views (in Night Whispers) shoved in there and this was not even spread out all that fairly. I think if one ignores Flametail's chapters, Ivypool and Lionblaze are the ones with less spotlight in terms of their own viewpoint, if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 11, 2021 14:05:58 GMT -5
I just counted: Ivypool has around 20 chapters in Omen of the Stars, including some lines in BrS, TBC, DS, and possibly other books, but she's rarely shown. That's... so little compared to Dovewing's moments she's had in the books. No wonder Ivypool's story isn't all that fantastic, wheras they could've done so much more with Dovewing's growth, considering she had way more moments than Ivypool. What a waste. Now I'm curious about how many chapters Dovewing has had compared to Ivypool, lol. Maybe I'll do that later. I still think that the OotS arc had way too many perspectives crammed into it. Jayfeather, Lionblaze, Dovewing, Ivypool and Flametail for a few chapters was just overcrowded. If they had not given Flametail any sort of PoV and given that time to develop Ivypool further instead it already could have helped at least a little. Each of the six books has either four or even five point of views (in Night Whispers) shoved in there and this was not even spread out all that fairly. I think if one ignores Flametail's chapters, Ivypool and Lionblaze are the ones with less spotlight in terms of their own viewpoint, if I'm not mistaken. I agree, they had way too many chapters crammed in Omen of the Stars. I feel like they should have only used Jayfeather, Dovewing, and Ivypool the most, while Lionblaze should've been a minor character at best since he was never really significant in the books. Dovewing's and Ivypool's stories could've improved so much if they had more significant moments related to the prophecy and their character growths. Take out the Tigerheart drama and give Ivypool more chapters. They would've been a lot more interesting.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 11, 2021 14:20:42 GMT -5
I still think that the OotS arc had way too many perspectives crammed into it. Jayfeather, Lionblaze, Dovewing, Ivypool and Flametail for a few chapters was just overcrowded. If they had not given Flametail any sort of PoV and given that time to develop Ivypool further instead it already could have helped at least a little. Each of the six books has either four or even five point of views (in Night Whispers) shoved in there and this was not even spread out all that fairly. I think if one ignores Flametail's chapters, Ivypool and Lionblaze are the ones with less spotlight in terms of their own viewpoint, if I'm not mistaken. I agree, they had way too many chapters crammed in Omen of the Stars. I feel like they should have only used Jayfeather, Dovewing, and Ivypool the most, while Lionblaze should've been a minor character at best since he was never really significant in the books. Dovewing's and Ivypool's stories could've improved so much if they had more significant moments related to the prophecy and their character growths. Take out the Tigerheart drama and give Ivypool more chapters. They would've been a lot more interesting. Or they could have cut out Ivypool's story arc entirely and given the three prophecised cats enough time to shine. Dovewing should have gotten more development and chances to use her powers instead of just her romance arc with Tigerheart. Jayfeather would have more time to spy on the dreams of other cats. And Lionblaze deserved more than just his overdramatic storyline with Cinderheart or killing only an unimportant DF cat (Shredtail) in the final battle. He could have been the spy as well. For example, if Mapleshade had decided to visit him in his dreams after hearing about his "wasted potential in their cause" from a disappointed Tigerstar, he had no chance of going against her seeing as it was said how even Tigerstar was afraid of Mapleshade in one book of the arc (can't properly remember which one). When it comes to the "sisterly conflict" plot, the authors have since reused this trope with Twigbranch and Violetshine while also having a bit of it with Leafpool and Squirrelflight previously during the time of the forbidden CrowLeaf days. I'm sure we'll see another one soon enough. Of course, this means Ivypool has no importance to the series but it was simply a fanon idea in the first place.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 11, 2021 14:33:33 GMT -5
I agree, they had way too many chapters crammed in Omen of the Stars. I feel like they should have only used Jayfeather, Dovewing, and Ivypool the most, while Lionblaze should've been a minor character at best since he was never really significant in the books. Dovewing's and Ivypool's stories could've improved so much if they had more significant moments related to the prophecy and their character growths. Take out the Tigerheart drama and give Ivypool more chapters. They would've been a lot more interesting. Or they could have cut out Ivypool's story arc entirely and given the three prophecised cats enough time to shine. Dovewing should have gotten more development and chances to use her powers instead of just her romance arc with Tigerheart. Jayfeather would have more time to spy on the dreams of other cats. And Lionblaze deserved more than just his overdramatic storyline with Cinderheart or killing only an unimportant DF cat (Shredtail) in the final battle. He could have been the spy as well. For example, if Mapleshade had decided to visit him in his dreams after hearing about his "wasted potential in their cause" from a disappointed Tigerstar, he had no chance of going against her seeing as it was said how even Tigerstar was afraid of Mapleshade in one book of the arc (can't properly remember which one). When it comes to the "sisterly conflict" plot, the authors have since reused this trope with Twigbranch and Violetshine while also having a bit of it with Leafpool and Squirrelflight previously during the forbidden romance of CrowLeaf days. I'm sure we'll see another one soon enough. Of course, this means Ivypool has no importance to the series but it was simply a fanon idea in the first place. No. Ivypool was supposed to be somewhat important to the story because of her spying. Even though she didn't do much to some readers, in canon, she does a lot for the three, so I feel she's supposed to have a PoV because of her importance. They really messed up Dovewing's arc because she was supposed to be important for the prophecy, but instead of focusing on that and her own growth, they forced most of her chapters to spend her time with Tigerheart more than her own growth and focus on the prophecy. Ivypaw is actually a good example of this. She started off as focusing on her own growth and insecurities, which is connected to the prophecy, and it'll later on focus on overcoming those insecurities and helping her clan spying instead. She's a really good character to me because Ivypaw's story focuses on the point of the plot and her own growth. I don't like her behavior and I still think she was an ass as a paw, but honestly? She was a great character until she got her warrior name. Dovewing's chapters needed to be focused on her low self-esteem and insecurities about her sister, not Tigerheart. Her most significant moments were related to him and that's.. disappointing to most readers, even those who like her. People like Dovewing because of her insecurities and flaws and growth as a character, she does have growth, it's just related to Tigerheart and her pointless romance instead of the actual thing that's supposed to be important to her character, which would be the prophecy and her sister. I really wish the books focused on the sisters bonding because of the prophecy instead of quarreling. A lot of their moments together were really annoying, with Ivypaw doing immature things out of spite, and Dovepaw acting terrible to her and taking out her emotions on her sister because of Tigerheart. There's so much the Erins could've done for them, but they wasted it on Tigerheart! This is stuff they could've done for these characters instead of fighting over stupid drama related to Tigerheart: 1. Make Ivypool a villain. They could've made her become so manipulated that she would've turned on her clan and Dovewing. She was so focused on her jealousy that she didn't even want to leave the Dark Forest despite knowing it was bad, so I can see this happening. 2. Make Dovewing focus on the prohecy and have her spy in the Dark Forest while Ivypool was awake. It's really stupid that she discovered she can hear them at the last minute. 3. Tigerheart can help spy for them. Because apparently he told Ivypool that he was spying for them, if he had to be in there at all, maybe he could've helped Dovewing and Ivypool report some information? He can tell Dovewing during their nightly meetings together and Dovewing could've reported this to Ivypool if she missed anything. I really think it would've been interesting if these three actually worked together instead of quarreling because of their codebreaker. 4. Dovewing should've focused on her insecurities. She always blamed herself for a cat's death and felt bad because Ivypool was jealous and tried to mend their relationship. The writers should've tried to focus her character trying to find happiness within her clan, instead of pinning after more romance with Bumblestripe and Tigerheart. There's a lot they can do. But they wasted everything on Tigerheart. I can probably list so much more, but these were the ideas they could've done with these three that came to my mind, lol. And typing all of this... it makes Tigerheart such an annoying character to me because his existence alone makes things worse. ShadowClan collapsing, Ivypool and Dovewing quarreling, the catmint thing, etc. Seriously.
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Aroace
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Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 11, 2021 14:56:18 GMT -5
Or they could have cut out Ivypool's story arc entirely and given the three prophecised cats enough time to shine. Dovewing should have gotten more development and chances to use her powers instead of just her romance arc with Tigerheart. Jayfeather would have more time to spy on the dreams of other cats. And Lionblaze deserved more than just his overdramatic storyline with Cinderheart or killing only an unimportant DF cat (Shredtail) in the final battle. He could have been the spy as well. For example, if Mapleshade had decided to visit him in his dreams after hearing about his "wasted potential in their cause" from a disappointed Tigerstar, he had no chance of going against her seeing as it was said how even Tigerstar was afraid of Mapleshade in one book of the arc (can't properly remember which one). When it comes to the "sisterly conflict" plot, the authors have since reused this trope with Twigbranch and Violetshine while also having a bit of it with Leafpool and Squirrelflight previously during the forbidden romance of CrowLeaf days. I'm sure we'll see another one soon enough. Of course, this means Ivypool has no importance to the series but it was simply a fanon idea in the first place. No. Ivypool was supposed to be somewhat important to the story because of her spying. Even though she didn't do much to some readers, in canon, she does a lot for the three, so I feel she's supposed to have a PoV because of her importance. They really messed up Dovewing's arc because she was supposed to be important for the prophecy, but instead of focusing on that and her own growth, they forced most of her chapters to spend her time with Tigerheart more than her own growth and focus on the prophecy. Ivypaw is actually a good example of this. She started off as focusing on her own growth and insecurities, which is connected to the prophecy, and it'll later on focus on overcoming those insecurities and helping her clan spying instead. She's a really good character to me because Ivypaw's story focuses on the point of the plot and her own growth. I don't like her behavior and I still think she was an ass as a paw, but honestly? She was a great character until she got her warrior name. Dovewing's chapters needed to be focused on her low self-esteem and insecurities about her sister, not Tigerheart. Her most significant moments were related to him and that's.. disappointing to most readers, even those who like her. People like Dovewing because of her insecurities and flaws and growth as a character, she does have growth, it's just related to Tigerheart and her pointless romance instead of the actual thing that's supposed to be important to her character, which would be the prophecy and her sister. I really wish the books focused on the sisters bonding because of the prophecy instead of quarreling. A lot of their moments together were really annoying, with Ivypaw doing immature things out of spite, and Dovepaw acting terrible to her and taking out her emotions on her sister because of Tigerheart. There's so much the Erins could've done for them, but they wasted it on Tigerheart! This is stuff they could've done for these characters instead of fighting over stupid drama related to Tigerheart: 1. Make Ivypool a villain. They could've made her become so manipulated that she would've turned on her clan and Dovewing. She was so focused on her jealousy that she didn't even want to leave the Dark Forest despite knowing it was bad, so I can see this happening. 2. Make Dovewing focus on the prohecy and have her spy in the Dark Forest while Ivypool was awake. It's really stupid that she discovered she can hear them at the last minute. 3. Tigerheart can help spy for them. Because apparently he told Ivypool that he was spying for them, if he had to be in there at all, maybe he could've helped Dovewing and Ivypool report some information? He can tell Dovewing during their nightly meetings together and Dovewing could've reported this to Ivypool if she missed anything. I really think it would've been interesting if these three actually worked together instead of quarreling because of their codebreaker. 4. Dovewing should've focused on her insecurities. She always blamed herself for a cat's death and felt bad because Ivypool was jealous and tried to mend their relationship. The writers should've tried to focus her character trying to find happiness within her clan, instead of pinning after more romance with Bumblestripe and Tigerheart. There's a lot they can do. But they wasted everything on Tigerheart. I can probably list so much more, but these were the ideas they could've done with these three that came to my mind, lol. And typing all of this... it makes Tigerheart such an annoying character to me because his existence alone makes things worse. ShadowClan collapsing, Ivypool and Dovewing quarreling, the catmint thing, etc. Seriously. I agree but also at the same time disagree with you on that. Because the OotS arc was supposed to be about or mainly focus on the three prophecised cats which are Jay, Lion and Dove. I still think it might have either been a good idea to cut out Ivypool's story and focus more on them or replace both Jayfeather's and Lionblaze's PoV entirely with Dovewing, Ivypool and maybe Tigerheart if he's actually helpful instead of a distraction (I still hate him though). Jayfeather and Lionblaze should continue to be important characters as well seeing as they didn't have as much to do during the arc or battle as they could have had (especially Lionblaze who was overhyped with his powers only to be completely underused). But alas, this is merely wishful thinking and the reality in canon will remain unchanged. The point is that Dovewing and Ivypool needed more development than what they got instead during the OotS arc. Or, and I'm aware as to sounding like song on repeat right now, have neither Dovewing nor Ivypool be important in the story and just make Hollyleaf the third cat to begin with. The only reason why she was robbed of it is "because the authors couldn't come up with a power" which sounds like a rather lazy excuse to me. Hollyleaf could have had Dovewing's power of hearing or be able to persuade cats to do her bidding. The possibilities were there.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Oct 11, 2021 18:32:33 GMT -5
Yes, Ivypool has a well-developed personality for someone who wasn't really part of the main plot of OOTS.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 17, 2021 10:42:19 GMT -5
Bump
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