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Post by Aqua on Oct 5, 2021 19:18:12 GMT -5
Here's what confuses me when people defend Mapleshade's actions for lying to her clan. I understand that Frecklewish didn't help by believing that Birchface is the father, but, in the end, it's Mapleshade who allowed to let her clan believe in the lies, and I genuinely believe that everyone else had every right to be angry with her about this. Do I like the fact that she was exiled? No. Mapleshade didn't deserve to be exiled, but I understand why her clan acted the way they did. They were grieving over a well respected warrior, and Mapleshade took advantage of this and didn't care about their feelings. It feels like to me that Mapleshade was selfish for breaking the warrior code and lying to her clan and taking advantage of their feelings like this. She didn't see what she did was wrong by lying to them, and threw the pity card by acting like she didn't deserve what happened to her. I really don't understand why people defend this, whereas they get mad at Leafpool, Dovewing, Yellowfang and Bluestar and other cats for lying to their clans and sometimes even doing worse things, but Mapleshade has a lot of people defending these actions for hurting these cats.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 5, 2021 19:22:23 GMT -5
i think its bc the way her novella is written, it makes u sympathize and see her side way more. thats why i think its really risky giving villains their stand alone stories. it makes people agree with them even though we know they go on to do awful things that make them a villain.
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Post by cable on Oct 5, 2021 19:37:35 GMT -5
i dont blame any cat who lied about their kits so mapleshade isnt a unique case for me.
mapleshade faced the most dire consequences of all those cats, and this ended in the death of her kits. the punishment so deeply outweighed the crime that people tend to sympathize.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 19:38:27 GMT -5
She also gets points for being like the only female villain. She's treated as a 'girlboss'
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 5, 2021 19:39:11 GMT -5
No one defends Mapleshade for lying.
What we're actually saying is that her lying shouldn't equal to her not having a fair trial and being treated without leniency. She and her kits were judged mostly on the fact that Appledusk was her mate and the father of her kits. And none of them deserved to have been treated the way they were. Exiled? Sure. But being persecuted and attacked, chased out into a storm, and then later left to drown is truly scummy on ThunderClan's part, especially if they're supposed to be the "morally justified" ones in this situation. Their actions were heavily biased.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 5, 2021 19:50:15 GMT -5
She really doesn't deserve it.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 5, 2021 20:07:22 GMT -5
i think its bc the way her novella is written, it makes u sympathize and see her side way more. thats why i think its really risky giving villains their stand alone stories. it makes people agree with them even though we know they go on to do awful things that make them a villain. Not necessarily. Like everything in literature, it all depends on how it's written. With Mapleshade specifically, the problem wasn't that she was sympathetic, but that everyone else wasn't, so people side with Mapleshade by default. This is completely different from, say, Tigerclaw's or Scourge's stories, where their actions aren't really praised. Vicky even puts a disclaimer saying at the beginning of TRoS saying that Scourge's actions shouldn't be glorified. What the fandom does with this is a completely separate thing (granted, the fact that they were Firestar's enemies long before their stories were written and we knew nothing about Mapleshade's victims probably helps as well). And it's a completely different genre, but another example I like to give is from one of my favorite book series. Basically in her own prequel, it's revealed that the villain is so desperate to be loved after having such a horrid childhood that she's willing to murder, conquer, and brainwash for it. Here's the thing, though: her victims, including the main one in her story, are all treated sympathetically and the prequel makes it clear that even in her own PoV, the villain is wrong no matter how many times she tries to justify her actions. Mapleshade, though? Again, her victims aren't treated in the best light. You can say it's because she's the main PoV, but this doesn't work, either, otherwise we'd have to apply that logic to every single piece of work in existence. Everyone is the hero of their own story, but there are limits. And she can't be an unreliable narrator either since she at no point ever tricks the reader, unless you count the whole "my kits want me to commit murder" thing, but that seems more like an in-universe thing anyway, not necessarily for the audience. Compare this to when Dovewing thought Firestar made it out of his final fight with Tigerstar okay, but then it turned out he didn't. That's an unreliable narrator right there. Tl;dr, the problem isn't the characters, it's the writing. Hope this made sense!
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Post by plaggy on Oct 5, 2021 21:00:04 GMT -5
This is something similar to Darkstalker from WOF. Some people defend him (justify SOME of his actions) or feel sympathy because of his abuse he got from his father.
I dont know I usually feel that is dangerous when they try to sympathize with villains too much.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 5, 2021 21:05:19 GMT -5
This is something similar to Darkstalker from WOF. Some people defend him (justify SOME of his actions) or feel sympathy because of his abuse he got from his father. I dont know I usually feel that is dangerous when they try to sympathize with villains too much. Like I said in my earlier post, it's really more of a problem with the writing, not the characters. In the case of Darkstalker, no one in-universe ever justifies his actions all throughout except for Darkstalker himself, and whenever another character tries to do it, they're clearly treated as being in the wrong for it or don't have the full story. If fans try to justify his actions even despite this, then that's a completely different issue from the story itself doing it and should be treated as such.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 6, 2021 0:26:27 GMT -5
it doesn't have to be 100% for or against a cat though
Most people here who "defend" Mapleshade point out that her crimes were Dark Forest worthy. No one is denying that. What people are arguing is that she is ALSO a victim. You can be a perpetrator and victim at the same time.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Oct 6, 2021 9:17:52 GMT -5
The only thing I defend her with is that she was treated extremely harshly, especially in contrast to Leafpool. I don't defend her lies, but I do think she was very heavily (and rather unfairly) punished for it all.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 6, 2021 11:44:39 GMT -5
No one has defended her on the forums in a very long time. I haven't seen unironic Mapleshade defense in a very long time, not even on Youtube.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 6, 2021 13:16:24 GMT -5
No one is defending her crimes but rather sympathise with how badly she was treated by her Clan and mate.
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