#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 27, 2021 12:19:52 GMT -5
I think we would have had a Mudstar.
But who would be his deputy though?
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Post by Chicken on Sept 27, 2021 12:25:59 GMT -5
Probably Webfoot. Also, if he had won, Crowfrost, Wasptail, and Kinkfur might still be alive, though maybe not Kinkfur, since she was an elder, and probably would have died in between arcs like Ratscar.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Sept 27, 2021 12:28:36 GMT -5
I think hawkfrost made a deal with mudclaw that if he won the rebellion he would make hawkfrost deputy, but mudclaw might have just double-crossed him. Maybe tornear if not hawkfrost
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 27, 2021 12:29:07 GMT -5
Probably Webfoot. Also, if he had won, Crowfrost, Wasptail, and Kinkfur might still be alive, though maybe not Kinkfur, since she was an elder, and probably would have died in between arcs like Ratscar. I think Mudclaw would have been a better leader than Onestar. Tallstar told Onewhisker to keep the peace and continue to be friends of ThunderClan. But Onestar went the wrong way and got angry against ThunderClan. I'm not saying Onestar was wrong, I'm just saying he could have handled it better.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Sept 27, 2021 12:31:31 GMT -5
Featherstar After he died he seemed to have a change in heart, so it possible he'd be less hostile towards the clans. It be interesting to see him as leader, and if tallstar really made the right choice.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 27, 2021 12:33:43 GMT -5
Probably Webfoot. Also, if he had won, Crowfrost, Wasptail, and Kinkfur might still be alive, though maybe not Kinkfur, since she was an elder, and probably would have died in between arcs like Ratscar. I think Mudclaw would have been a better leader than Onestar. Tallstar told Onewhisker to keep the peace and continue to be friends of ThunderClan. But Onestar went the wrong way and got angry against ThunderClan. I'm not saying Onestar was wrong, I'm just saying he could have handled it better. I think Onestar was extremely wrong, I understand that he was upset about Furzepelt dying, but he flat out refused to help when he very EASILY could have, even when he knew that kits were sick. He was willing to let a WHOLE clan die out.
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Post by cable on Sept 27, 2021 12:54:38 GMT -5
we already know who his deputy would have been, because he told us. it wouldve been hawkfrost, and then he’d help hawkfrost kill leopardstar and mistyfoot (or chase them into exile) so he could take over riverclan, as per the terms of their deal
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 27, 2021 12:55:32 GMT -5
we already know who his deputy would have been, because he told us. it wouldve been hawkfrost, and then he’d help hawkfrost kill leopardstar and mistyfoot (or chase them into exile) so he could take over riverclan, as per the terms of their deal But what if... Mudclaw got his nine lives and then betrayed Hawkfrost?
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Post by cable on Sept 27, 2021 12:57:08 GMT -5
we already know who his deputy would have been, because he told us. it wouldve been hawkfrost, and then he’d help hawkfrost kill leopardstar and mistyfoot (or chase them into exile) so he could take over riverclan, as per the terms of their deal But what if... Mudclaw got his nine lives and then betrayed Hawkfrost? and then what? face the repurcussions? hawkfrost had all of riverclan under his thumb by manipulating their medicine cat. he could easily organize war with windclan to get revenge.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2021 12:58:01 GMT -5
Hawkfrost
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 27, 2021 12:59:12 GMT -5
But what if... Mudclaw got his nine lives and then betrayed Hawkfrost? and then what? face the repurcussions? hawkfrost had all of riverclan under his thumb by manipulating their medicine cat. he could easily organize war with windclan to get revenge. Well RiverClan survived TigerClan and then shortly after that, the battle against BloodClan. Then they survived The Great Journey. Mothwing is a good medicine cat.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 27, 2021 12:59:16 GMT -5
We already know who Mudclaw would pick since part of the deal was for Hawkfrost to be deputized. Moreover, this was further contingent on Mudclaw then helping Hawkfrost conquer Riverclan later. We also know that he planned on executing Onestar and Ashfoot.
Anyway, I imagine a lot of cats might leave Windclan in the aftermath of his coup. Windclan actually doesn't like Mudclaw very much, as it turns out, and only a pawful of cats are noted to have supported him. Even less are going to like him after he murders two innocent cats and installs a Riverclan cat who's never had an apprentice as his deputy. Assuming Mudclaw keeps his promise to Hawkfrost, then he'll try to invade Riverclan next. However, a Windclan weakened by internal dissent and facing a unified front of other clans has slim chances of winning this battle, and I predict that we'll see Mudclaw end up getting Brokenstar's treatment and getting chased out by his own clan which is sick and tired of fighting battles for the sake of a foreign deputy. If Mudclaw decides not to honor his word with Hawkfrost, then Hawkfrost proceeds to murder him and something similar to the above happens. Even if we assume Mudclaw gets his nine lives(this is far from certain, I question whether the other clans would even LET him go to get them), we saw with Raggedstar that a stealth attack is sufficient to kill someone over and over. And Hawkfrost is much stronger than Mudclaw is.
Either way, things are a lot bloodier, uglier, and just generally nastier in general. It would be a very dark time with Hawkfrost as deputy.
Very unlikely given Tornear was straight up fighting Mudclaw in the big battle and wanted nothing to do with his rebellion. I doubt Tornear would accept a bloodmoney position like that given his stance beforehand.
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Post by cable on Sept 27, 2021 13:00:39 GMT -5
and then what? face the repurcussions? hawkfrost had all of riverclan under his thumb by manipulating their medicine cat. he could easily organize war with windclan to get revenge. Well RiverClan survived TigerClan and then shortly after that, the battle against BloodClan. Then they survived The Great Journey. Mothwing is a good medicine cat. hawkfrost has used mothwing to get his way in the past. theres no reason he couldnt pressure her into faking a dream where the aggressive new windclan leader (who by this point had murdered his previous leader and deputy for power) wanted to attack riverclan
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 27, 2021 13:02:24 GMT -5
Well RiverClan survived TigerClan and then shortly after that, the battle against BloodClan. Then they survived The Great Journey. Mothwing is a good medicine cat. hawkfrost has used mothwing to get his way in the past. theres no reason he couldnt pressure her into faking a dream where the aggressive new windclan leader (who by this point had murdered his previous leader and deputy for power) wanted to attack riverclan What if Mudclaw killed Hawkfrost? What then?
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Post by Chicken on Sept 27, 2021 13:03:45 GMT -5
hawkfrost has used mothwing to get his way in the past. theres no reason he couldnt pressure her into faking a dream where the aggressive new windclan leader (who by this point had murdered his previous leader and deputy for power) wanted to attack riverclan What if Mudclaw killed Hawkfrost? What then? I doubt a little WindClan cat could defeat a Tigerkin lol.
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Post by cable on Sept 27, 2021 13:03:48 GMT -5
hawkfrost has used mothwing to get his way in the past. theres no reason he couldnt pressure her into faking a dream where the aggressive new windclan leader (who by this point had murdered his previous leader and deputy for power) wanted to attack riverclan What if Mudclaw killed Hawkfrost? What then? hawkfrost was the superior fighter, and furher more training in the dark forest to learn forbidden techniques. i doubt mudclaw could beat him, and even if he did, the war still proceeds because now hes killed a cat seen as a loyal riverclan warrior for apparently no reason.
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 27, 2021 13:04:50 GMT -5
What if Mudclaw killed Hawkfrost? What then? hawkfrost was the superior fighter, and furher more training in the dark forest to learn forbidden techniques. i doubt mudclaw could beat him, and even if he did, the war still proceeds because now hes killed a cat seen as a loyal riverclan warrior for apparently no reason. So what your saying is there is no way to have a good ending?
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 27, 2021 13:05:40 GMT -5
hawkfrost has used mothwing to get his way in the past. theres no reason he couldnt pressure her into faking a dream where the aggressive new windclan leader (who by this point had murdered his previous leader and deputy for power) wanted to attack riverclan What if Mudclaw killed Hawkfrost? What then? I find it unlikely Mudclaw can win a fight with Hawkfrost, but assuming he succeeds this actually makes him look even WORSE. He was a backstabber before, but now he's backstabbing the people who helped him be a backstabber before. No clan will ever trust to deal with him in good faith anymore because he's clearly a liar and a traitor who you can't trust. Why trust Windclan when their leader murders even his own allies, let alone his enemies? Riverclan and Thunderclan would have every ground necessary to claim him a tyrant and simply refuse to deal with him, and that's not even counting how many Windclan cats might well hate him for it too.
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Post by cable on Sept 27, 2021 13:05:59 GMT -5
hawkfrost was the superior fighter, and furher more training in the dark forest to learn forbidden techniques. i doubt mudclaw could beat him, and even if he did, the war still proceeds because now hes killed a cat seen as a loyal riverclan warrior for apparently no reason. So what your saying is there is no way to have a good ending? pretty much! either mudclaw sticks to his deal and gives hawkfrost Infinite Power or he betrays hawkfrost and hawk either kills him, leaving windclan completely leaderless, or a war starts with riverclan
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 27, 2021 13:07:35 GMT -5
So what your saying is there is no way to have a good ending? pretty much! either mudclaw sticks to his deal and gives hawkfrost Infinite Power or he betrays hawkfrost and hawk either kills him, leaving windclan completely leaderless, or a war starts with riverclan Props to Hawkfrost for that scheme, he really has that "heads I win, tails you lose" level of plan going.
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Post by halogen on Sept 27, 2021 20:23:22 GMT -5
We already know who Mudclaw would pick since part of the deal was for Hawkfrost to be deputized. Moreover, this was further contingent on Mudclaw then helping Hawkfrost conquer Riverclan later. We also know that he planned on executing Onestar and Ashfoot. Anyway, I imagine a lot of cats might leave Windclan in the aftermath of his coup. Windclan actually doesn't like Mudclaw very much, as it turns out, and only a pawful of cats are noted to have supported him. Even less are going to like him after he murders two innocent cats and installs a Riverclan cat who's never had an apprentice as his deputy. Assuming Mudclaw keeps his promise to Hawkfrost, then he'll try to invade Riverclan next. However, a Windclan weakened by internal dissent and facing a unified front of other clans has slim chances of winning this battle, and I predict that we'll see Mudclaw end up getting Brokenstar's treatment and getting chased out by his own clan which is sick and tired of fighting battles for the sake of a foreign deputy. If Mudclaw decides not to honor his word with Hawkfrost, then Hawkfrost proceeds to murder him and something similar to the above happens. Even if we assume Mudclaw gets his nine lives(this is far from certain, I question whether the other clans would even LET him go to get them), we saw with Raggedstar that a stealth attack is sufficient to kill someone over and over. And Hawkfrost is much stronger than Mudclaw is. Either way, things are a lot bloodier, uglier, and just generally nastier in general. It would be a very dark time with Hawkfrost as deputy. Very unlikely given Tornear was straight up fighting Mudclaw in the big battle and wanted nothing to do with his rebellion. I doubt Tornear would accept a bloodmoney position like that given his stance beforehand. I got the sense that Mudclaw wasn't innately unpopular, he was quite liked by his Clan, it's just that believing he had a legitimate claim to leadership would mean believing that Onestar was lying and manipulating them and no one wants to believe that of a Clanmate (look how reluctant cats were to believe it about Tigerstar in TPB), so the general opinion was that Tallstar really did change the leadership and even if they all loved and respected Mudclaw as a deputy, he had to respect that. And that was before he even thought of murdering his Clanmates and overthrowing Onewhisker, at which point most WindClan cats were naturally disgusted whatever they had thought of Mudclaw before. I think it would have been quite an interesting tragic downfall type of arc for him upon becoming leader, where he gets what he wants only to realize that he has lost everyone's loyalty in the process, that he has not really proven Onestar and Firestar wrong but taken a leadership through violence that is really no leadership at all. He's overthrown by his Clan or he leaves the Clan himself knowing he has betrayed everything WindClan stood for.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 27, 2021 20:38:51 GMT -5
We already know who Mudclaw would pick since part of the deal was for Hawkfrost to be deputized. Moreover, this was further contingent on Mudclaw then helping Hawkfrost conquer Riverclan later. We also know that he planned on executing Onestar and Ashfoot. Anyway, I imagine a lot of cats might leave Windclan in the aftermath of his coup. Windclan actually doesn't like Mudclaw very much, as it turns out, and only a pawful of cats are noted to have supported him. Even less are going to like him after he murders two innocent cats and installs a Riverclan cat who's never had an apprentice as his deputy. Assuming Mudclaw keeps his promise to Hawkfrost, then he'll try to invade Riverclan next. However, a Windclan weakened by internal dissent and facing a unified front of other clans has slim chances of winning this battle, and I predict that we'll see Mudclaw end up getting Brokenstar's treatment and getting chased out by his own clan which is sick and tired of fighting battles for the sake of a foreign deputy. If Mudclaw decides not to honor his word with Hawkfrost, then Hawkfrost proceeds to murder him and something similar to the above happens. Even if we assume Mudclaw gets his nine lives(this is far from certain, I question whether the other clans would even LET him go to get them), we saw with Raggedstar that a stealth attack is sufficient to kill someone over and over. And Hawkfrost is much stronger than Mudclaw is. Either way, things are a lot bloodier, uglier, and just generally nastier in general. It would be a very dark time with Hawkfrost as deputy. Very unlikely given Tornear was straight up fighting Mudclaw in the big battle and wanted nothing to do with his rebellion. I doubt Tornear would accept a bloodmoney position like that given his stance beforehand. I got the sense that Mudclaw wasn't innately unpopular, he was quite liked by his Clan, it's just that believing he had a legitimate claim to leadership would mean believing that Onestar was lying and manipulating them and no one wants to believe that of a Clanmate (look how reluctant cats were to believe it about Tigerstar in TPB), so the general opinion was that Tallstar really did change the leadership and even if they all loved and respected Mudclaw as a deputy, he had to respect that. And that was before he even thought of murdering his Clanmates and overthrowing Onewhisker, at which point most WindClan cats were naturally disgusted whatever they had thought of Mudclaw before. I think it would have been quite an interesting tragic downfall type of arc for him upon becoming leader, where he gets what he wants only to realize that he has lost everyone's loyalty in the process, that he has not really proven Onestar and Firestar wrong but taken a leadership through violence that is really no leadership at all. He's overthrown by his Clan or he leaves the Clan himself knowing he has betrayed everything WindClan stood for. When I said unpopular, I only meant in terms of his claims to leadership. Plenty of cats still personally liked him, but there were very few actually willing to fight for his claim to leader within his own clan. Yeah, I think certainly it'd be an interesting scenario if he won and he's just left standing in the devastation he's wrought and feeling utter regret over it. If he's totally unable to derive any joy from it because his victory has pushed everyone else away. He might simply wander into the wilds like you said, or I could also see an alternative where he tries to fill the hole left in his heart by actually enthusiastically gunning for Riverclan in the desperate hope that conquest will fix things. There's a lot of different routes you would go with it, and it's a shame I have basically never seen the fandom do anything with it.
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