|
Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 22, 2021 7:03:14 GMT -5
I dislike him. He does nothing but stir up tension by arguing or complaining.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 22, 2021 11:02:58 GMT -5
I feel like no one in this situation should get blame, Scorchfur, Rowanstar, Tawnypelt, none of them. They were all obviously not thinking clearly because of the heightened emotions, and they all thought they were on the right side from their perspective. When it comes to who is morally in the right, I agree that it's Rowanstar and Tawnypelt (minus the slapping situation, she's not morally right there, neither of them are), I'm not trying to absolve anyone by saying that no one should get any blame, I just think it's not that simple. I do agree with this. This is what I’m saying in general. The blame game is annoying in that even if everyone was wrong or right, nobody needed to say such blatantly nasty and unhelpful things in the situation. That’s why, even if I understand Scorchfur’s emotions, he shouldn’t have started conflict when it was obviously just to kick a dead horse. That’s why I hate him, not because he had criticisms, but because he clearly just wants to hurt an already immensely beat down cat. That is understandable, and I agree, I didn't even think about the fact that what he was saying might hurt Rowanstar's feelings, that does make him a huge jerk. I still like him though, because of the moments where he tries to do something good, and where he shows regret, shows me that there's more than just a jerk side to him, however, I can understand and respect the fact that you do not.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 22, 2021 11:21:33 GMT -5
I do agree with this. This is what I’m saying in general. The blame game is annoying in that even if everyone was wrong or right, nobody needed to say such blatantly nasty and unhelpful things in the situation. That’s why, even if I understand Scorchfur’s emotions, he shouldn’t have started conflict when it was obviously just to kick a dead horse. That’s why I hate him, not because he had criticisms, but because he clearly just wants to hurt an already immensely beat down cat. That is understandable, and I agree, I didn't even think about the fact that what he was saying might hurt Rowanstar's feelings, that does make him a huge jerk. I still like him though, because of the moments where he tries to do something good, and where he shows regret, shows me that there's more than just a jerk side to him, however, I can understand and respect the fact that you do not. I like Rowanstar, but even I would not argue that it is totally understandable that the clan would have issues with how he leads. He doesn’t want needless aggression if not needed, he isn’t blunt and demanding, he did depend on Thunderclan’s help in BRS, something Shadowclan clearly is to prideful to admit to so they think it’s weakness. Yes. He was not a perfect leader at all. But my issue is that even when he does try to fix what was broken, and tries to be amicable for the entire clan, there is no genuine solution or help being given. Scorchfur was very pointedly intending to hurt him without providing any kind of suggestion on how to fix a choice that he made. How can a leader even possibly attempt to do better or fix the issue when nobody is willing to even listen or offer a genuinely good solution to try? I genuinely can’t call Rowanstar a weak leader or cat for just being done with every cat he once thought as a Warrior or Friend utterly hating him for something he never chose or intended for the clan, and for trying to actually help Shadowclan. Of course the clan falls to crap, when every Warrior is only ever blaming him and not taking a single shred of blame for their own decisions. And at the end of it all, Rowanstar still blames himself entirely and doesn’t shoulder it off on the cats who willingly chose to break Shadowclan apart and follow blatantly obviously violent and dangerous outsiders. Scorchfur is the kind of person who enjoys hurting someone when they’re down and no decent deed or moment of him not being an ass makes up for beating someone when they’re down. Reading it makes me so angry to this day.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 22, 2021 11:23:20 GMT -5
That and his regrets mean nothing when he continues to be an ass and never once changes. To me, that makes him not genuine, which is even worse.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 22, 2021 11:25:18 GMT -5
That is understandable, and I agree, I didn't even think about the fact that what he was saying might hurt Rowanstar's feelings, that does make him a huge jerk. I still like him though, because of the moments where he tries to do something good, and where he shows regret, shows me that there's more than just a jerk side to him, however, I can understand and respect the fact that you do not. I like Rowanstar, but even I would not argue that it is totally understandable that the clan would have issues with how he leads. He doesn’t want needless aggression if not needed, he isn’t blunt and demanding, he did depend on Thunderclan’s help in BRS, something Shadowclan clearly is to prideful to admit to so they think it’s weakness. Yes. He was not a perfect leader at all. But my issue is that even when he does try to fix what was broken, and tries to be amicable for the entire clan, there is no genuine solution or help being given. Scorchfur was very pointedly intending to hurt him without providing any kind of suggestion on how to fix a choice that he made. How can a leader even possibly attempt to do better or fix the issue when nobody is willing to even listen or offer a genuinely good solution to try? I genuinely can’t call Rowanstar a weak leader or cat for just being done with every cat he once thought as a Warrior or Friend utterly hating him for something he never chose or intended for the clan, and for trying to actually help Shadowclan. Of course the clan falls to crap, when every Warrior is only ever blaming him and not taking a single shred of blame for their own decisions. And at the end of it all, Rowanstar still blames himself entirely and doesn’t shoulder it off on the cats who willingly chose to break Shadowclan apart and follow blatantly obviously violent and dangerous outsiders. Scorchfur is the kind of person who enjoys hurting someone when they’re down and no decent deed or moment of him not being an ass makes up for beating someone when they’re down. Reading it makes me so angry to this day. I agreed with you...?
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 22, 2021 11:30:53 GMT -5
I like Rowanstar, but even I would not argue that it is totally understandable that the clan would have issues with how he leads. He doesn’t want needless aggression if not needed, he isn’t blunt and demanding, he did depend on Thunderclan’s help in BRS, something Shadowclan clearly is to prideful to admit to so they think it’s weakness. Yes. He was not a perfect leader at all. But my issue is that even when he does try to fix what was broken, and tries to be amicable for the entire clan, there is no genuine solution or help being given. Scorchfur was very pointedly intending to hurt him without providing any kind of suggestion on how to fix a choice that he made. How can a leader even possibly attempt to do better or fix the issue when nobody is willing to even listen or offer a genuinely good solution to try? I genuinely can’t call Rowanstar a weak leader or cat for just being done with every cat he once thought as a Warrior or Friend utterly hating him for something he never chose or intended for the clan, and for trying to actually help Shadowclan. Of course the clan falls to crap, when every Warrior is only ever blaming him and not taking a single shred of blame for their own decisions. And at the end of it all, Rowanstar still blames himself entirely and doesn’t shoulder it off on the cats who willingly chose to break Shadowclan apart and follow blatantly obviously violent and dangerous outsiders. Scorchfur is the kind of person who enjoys hurting someone when they’re down and no decent deed or moment of him not being an ass makes up for beating someone when they’re down. Reading it makes me so angry to this day. I agreed with you...? I know. I was just adding on some thoughts. Not trying to argue or anything.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 22, 2021 11:35:50 GMT -5
I know. I was just adding on some thoughts. Not trying to argue or anything. Ohh okay! Sorry for misinterpreting your meaning, I worried, I agree with what you added on btw, the situation reminds me of a lot of IRL situations, where people complain and complain about something, but they never do anything about it, however, sometimes, nothing can be done about it, because if they went out and fought Onestar, and took the herbs without Rowanstar's permission, that would be breaking the code, because they would be trespassing on another clan's territory, and without the leader's word is the warrior code to back them up. Also, I just had a thought, I know it was a terrible and unmoral plan, but isn't Scorchfur suggesting they hold Twigpaw hostage for herbs kind of doing something?
|
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 22, 2021 11:50:18 GMT -5
I know. I was just adding on some thoughts. Not trying to argue or anything. Ohh okay! Sorry for misinterpreting your meaning, I worried, I agree with what you added on btw, the situation reminds me of a lot of IRL situations, where people complain and complain about something, but they never do anything about it, however, sometimes, nothing can be done about it, because if they went out and fought Onestar, and took the herbs without Rowanstar's permission, that would be breaking the code, because they would be trespassing on another clan's territory, and without the leader's word is the warrior code to back them up. Also, I just had a thought, I know it was a terrible and unmoral plan, but isn't Scorchfur suggesting they hold Twigpaw hostage for herbs kind of doing something? The issue here, which Crowfrost says later on, is that even with Twigpaw as a hostage, Onestar still did not budge on giving the herbs. Because when would Onestar ever care about Thunderclan’s apprentice and why would Thunderclan choose Shadowclan over just barging in and taking Twigpaw back from an ill-stricken Clan? Not to mention, Rowanstar was very sick at this point and wasn’t even informed of Twigpaw’s hostage situation until he was finally able to recover to be coherent enough to respond. They made that decision without his order, and when he was told about it, he stated specifically that holding Twigpaw hostage would solve nothing and that there was no excuse to act like rouges by taking a young apprentice hostage where she could fall sick too. Scorchfur also wanted to hold her hostage with pure malice in his voice. He wasn’t out here having to make some hard decision, he cruelly and vocally wanted to hold a cat hostage with malice in his eyes. At least with Crowfrost, he knew it was a difficult choice and didn’t feel good about giving it a try, and later on admitted that it was a bad idea. Scorchfur seemed to enjoy kidnapping Twigpaw beyond trying to help his clan.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 22, 2021 11:53:24 GMT -5
Ohh okay! Sorry for misinterpreting your meaning, I worried, I agree with what you added on btw, the situation reminds me of a lot of IRL situations, where people complain and complain about something, but they never do anything about it, however, sometimes, nothing can be done about it, because if they went out and fought Onestar, and took the herbs without Rowanstar's permission, that would be breaking the code, because they would be trespassing on another clan's territory, and without the leader's word is the warrior code to back them up. Also, I just had a thought, I know it was a terrible and unmoral plan, but isn't Scorchfur suggesting they hold Twigpaw hostage for herbs kind of doing something? The issue here, which Crowfrost says later on, is that even with Twigpaw as a hostage, Onestar still did not budge on giving the herbs. Because when would Onestar ever care about Thunderclan’s apprentice and why would Thunderclan choose Shadowclan over just barging in and taking Twigpaw back from an ill-stricken Clan? Not to mention, Rowanstar was very sick at this point and wasn’t even informed of Twigpaw’s hostage situation until he was finally able to recover to be coherent enough to respond. They made that decision without his order, and when he was told about it, he stated specifically that holding Twigpaw hostage would solve nothing and that there was no excuse to act like rouges by taking a young apprentice hostage where she could fall sick too. Scorchfur also wanted to hold her hostage with pure malice in his voice. He wasn’t out here having to make some hard decision, he cruelly and vocally wanted to hold a cat hostage with malice in his eyes. At least with Crowfrost, he knew it was a difficult choice and didn’t feel good about giving it a try, and later on admitted that it was a bad idea. Scorchfur seemed to enjoy kidnapping Twigpaw beyond trying to help his clan. That's true. I ways always confused on why they thought that would work, but ShadowClan has a history of being pretty naïve, also, they were probably pretty desperate and willing to try anything. I think from a writing standpoint though, it was to get ThunderClan involved in the drama between WindClan and ShadowClan, since they're the main protagonist clan.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 22, 2021 11:58:58 GMT -5
The issue here, which Crowfrost says later on, is that even with Twigpaw as a hostage, Onestar still did not budge on giving the herbs. Because when would Onestar ever care about Thunderclan’s apprentice and why would Thunderclan choose Shadowclan over just barging in and taking Twigpaw back from an ill-stricken Clan? Not to mention, Rowanstar was very sick at this point and wasn’t even informed of Twigpaw’s hostage situation until he was finally able to recover to be coherent enough to respond. They made that decision without his order, and when he was told about it, he stated specifically that holding Twigpaw hostage would solve nothing and that there was no excuse to act like rouges by taking a young apprentice hostage where she could fall sick too. Scorchfur also wanted to hold her hostage with pure malice in his voice. He wasn’t out here having to make some hard decision, he cruelly and vocally wanted to hold a cat hostage with malice in his eyes. At least with Crowfrost, he knew it was a difficult choice and didn’t feel good about giving it a try, and later on admitted that it was a bad idea. Scorchfur seemed to enjoy kidnapping Twigpaw beyond trying to help his clan. That's true. I ways always confused on why they thought that would work, but ShadowClan has a history of being pretty naïve, also, they were probably pretty desperate and willing to try anything. I think from a writing standpoint though, it was to get ThunderClan involved in the drama between WindClan and ShadowClan, since they're the main protagonist clan. Yes. That was the idea. But even then, that’s really nonsensical considering that Onestar has always given Thunderclan the middle finger and are arguably a healthier and stronger clan than Shadowclan. Bramblestar would not waste forces to invade Windclan when Shadowclan is the one that kidnapped their apprentice, not Windclan. I’m kind of shocked they didn’t just hide their scent with some plant and just sneak over to Windclan and steal some at night, you know, when Shadowclan is wide awake and the other clans tend to sleep? But nah, let’s find delight in kidnapping an apprentice. Drama, I guess.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 22, 2021 12:08:31 GMT -5
I do agree with this. This is what I’m saying in general. The blame game is annoying in that even if everyone was wrong or right, nobody needed to say such blatantly nasty and unhelpful things in the situation. That’s why, even if I understand Scorchfur’s emotions, he shouldn’t have started conflict when it was obviously just to kick a dead horse. That’s why I hate him, not because he had criticisms, but because he clearly just wants to hurt an already immensely beat down cat. That is understandable, and I agree, I didn't even think about the fact that what he was saying might hurt Rowanstar's feelings, that does make him a huge jerk. I still like him though, because of the moments where he tries to do something good, and where he shows regret, shows me that there's more than just a jerk side to him, however, I can understand and respect the fact that you do not. A good character isn't black-and-white and it's admirable how much Scorchfur cares for his family, but all that shows at best is that he's able to show basic decency. Even the worst people in history had loved ones, and while Scorchfur is no where near as bad as someone like Darktail, wanting to protect his kin doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. If it did, then we might as well excuse Clear Sky because his motivation stemmed from a desperation of making sure his group had enough to eat, or any other antagonist ever. Or in other words: Without the murder part in this case, of course. And it's perfectly reasonable that Scorchfur had grievances, but it's an entirely other thing when he's using his words to constantly beat his leader or deputy down, even mocking Rowanstar on at least one occasion, and it's even worse that he never seems to learn and thus never develops beyond a grouchy warrior with a soft side for his family. He remains static. It's pretty clear what his intent was, and it definitely wasn't to help. Had he presented his grievances in a more constructive manner and Rowanstar still wasn't listening, that'd be different and this isn't to say he was a perfect leader, but he was still clearly doing everything he could and his warriors still weren't pleased. It's really no wonder why he stepped down. At the end of DN, he's just broken. Not to mention, some of his complaints are pretty nonsensical at times, like with Tawnypelt. What exactly did he even expect her to do? Not stand by her leader? And what could she have possibly done to stop Darktail, especially when most of the Clan had already made their choice clear? And it gets sadder when she was the one who even vouched for him and the other traitors to return, and he still complains! And if even Sorchfur's own Clanmates had to call him out on his behavior, then there's clearly a problem.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 22, 2021 12:22:26 GMT -5
MoonblazerThat would have been a super good idea! You're right, it is dramatic lol, that's why I started calling this series a soap opera. 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵You're right. Especially about a lot of his complaints being nonsensical at times, his complaining is actually the reason for my current profile theme lol. My shadow status (thanks to Sandypaw for telling me that cool name for the status that you see when you hover over the pfp) says "My name represents how much I complain about this series." Also, you're right about even the worst people in history having a good side. And also about the ends don't justify the means.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 12:46:11 GMT -5
Didn't this man say the guy who murdered his daughter, almost murdered another and caused his son to defect and become a house cat would be a better leader than Rowanstar
|
|
|
Post by Numquam on Sept 22, 2021 13:47:08 GMT -5
He's pretty annoying
|
|
Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
|
Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Sept 22, 2021 17:21:47 GMT -5
Didn't this man say the guy who murdered his daughter, almost murdered another and caused his son to defect and become a house cat would be a better leader than Rowanstar So much for "caring about his family" lmfao
|
|