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Post by daurianwind on Sept 29, 2021 4:45:38 GMT -5
Are people forgetting he is a literal p3dophile? The main problem that this novel has been written long after, and it is clear what main point was to justify why good (or controversial) character what we see in Bluestar Prophecy was send to Dark Forest while other much more darker cats was not. It’s something like we for a long time have interesting characters with established personality and when years later we see retcon that completely ruin his character. It’s just isn’t fair and unbelievable.
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Post by andy on Sept 29, 2021 4:55:50 GMT -5
horrible person but a decent character. for very personal reasons i prefer to ignore spottedleaf's heart and consider it non-canon, but because that horrible book exists i'll say i'm neutral towards him rather than like to avoid people thinking im excusing really really horrible stuff.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 6:21:20 GMT -5
Strong and brave warrior, loyal and reliable clanmate, loving and caring friend to his mate, good father to his son and mentor to his apprentice. He deserves nine lives and Starclan not less than Bluefur. His only fault that we saw him from very prejudiced Bluefur’s point of view. Thistleclaw isn't really that loyal. He wanted to kill Oakheart, start battles against other clans, and eventually died in a pool of blood. He kicked Bluefur while she was pregnant, threatened to take Whitekit away from her because he thought she was being too "soft" on him, and did many other things. People only think he's a sweet guy because of Snowfur, but he really isn't that great to everyone else.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 29, 2021 6:48:12 GMT -5
Strong and brave warrior, loyal and reliable clanmate, loving and caring friend to his mate, good father to his son and mentor to his apprentice. He deserves nine lives and Starclan not less than Bluefur. His only fault that we saw him from very prejudiced Bluefur’s point of view. Thistleclaw isn't really that loyal. He wanted to kill Oakheart, start battles against other clans, and eventually died in a pool of blood. He kicked Bluefur while she was pregnant, threatened to take Whitekit away from her because he thought she was being too "soft" on him, and did many other things. People only think he's a sweet guy because of Snowfur, but he really isn't that great to everyone else. Tbh out of those jerk-moves, only kicking Bluefur is really disloyal. And a kick isn't really what it was either, he just shoved her. I don't think he knew she was pregnant either. Shoving someone in an argument isn't nice of course but it's not super disloyal either necessarily.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 6:51:19 GMT -5
Thistleclaw isn't really that loyal. He wanted to kill Oakheart, start battles against other clans, and eventually died in a pool of blood. He kicked Bluefur while she was pregnant, threatened to take Whitekit away from her because he thought she was being too "soft" on him, and did many other things. People only think he's a sweet guy because of Snowfur, but he really isn't that great to everyone else. Tbh out of those jerk-moves, only kicking Bluefur is really disloyal. And a kick isn't really what it was either, he just shoved her. I don't think he knew she was pregnant either. Shoving someone in an argument isn't nice of course but it's not super disloyal either necessarily. Around the time it was pretty obvious she was pregnant. The entire clan knew; there's no excuse. When a cat is heavily pregnant usually the entire clan knows by then. Even if it was just a shove, you really shouldn't do that around others who are pregnant.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 29, 2021 7:16:45 GMT -5
Tbh out of those jerk-moves, only kicking Bluefur is really disloyal. And a kick isn't really what it was either, he just shoved her. I don't think he knew she was pregnant either. Shoving someone in an argument isn't nice of course but it's not super disloyal either necessarily. Around the time it was pretty obvious she was pregnant. The entire clan knew; there's no excuse. When a cat is heavily pregnant usually the entire clan knows by then. Even if it was just a shove, you really shouldn't do that around others who are pregnant. It wasn't really obvious. Thrushpelt didn't know until Rosetail told him, Rosetail herself didn't know until Leopardfoot said so, and Sunstar made it sound like it was surprising he knew. If neither Thrushpelt or Rosetail would have known without someone telling them, then it's pretty clearly not obvious.
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Post by crowspirit on Sept 29, 2021 8:37:16 GMT -5
I really liked Thistleclaw when I first read Bluestarʼs Prophecy and I still don't think he was as bad as he's made out to be in this book in particular. In Spottedleaf's Heart he's trash of course, but I don't believe he's actually a ****phile. The book read more like him faking affection towards Spottedpaw to lure her into the Dark Forest. That's still horrible of course, but I don't believe it was actually ****philia. I really enjoyed his storyline and relationship with Snowfur, and that's why a part of me will probably always like him.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 9:57:39 GMT -5
Around the time it was pretty obvious she was pregnant. The entire clan knew; there's no excuse. When a cat is heavily pregnant usually the entire clan knows by then. Even if it was just a shove, you really shouldn't do that around others who are pregnant. It wasn't really obvious. Thrushpelt didn't know until Rosetail told him, Rosetail herself didn't know until Leopardfoot said so, and Sunstar made it sound like it was surprising he knew. If neither Thrushpelt or Rosetail would have known without someone telling them, then it's pretty clearly not obvious. It doesn't really matter. It's pretty obvious Thistleclaw doesn't like Bluefur either way, never respected her on patrols and gave her a hard time. So honestly, I can't really feel any reason to defend him for shoving her. There's no excuse for his behavior, and I'm leaving it at that.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 29, 2021 10:34:49 GMT -5
It wasn't really obvious. Thrushpelt didn't know until Rosetail told him, Rosetail herself didn't know until Leopardfoot said so, and Sunstar made it sound like it was surprising he knew. If neither Thrushpelt or Rosetail would have known without someone telling them, then it's pretty clearly not obvious. It doesn't really matter. It's pretty obvious Thistleclaw doesn't like Bluefur either way, never respected her on patrols and gave her a hard time. So honestly, I can't really feel any reason to defend him for shoving her. There's no excuse for his behavior, and I'm leaving it at that. If it doesn't matter whether he knew she was pregnant or not then why did you bring it up to begin with?
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5
It doesn't really matter. It's pretty obvious Thistleclaw doesn't like Bluefur either way, never respected her on patrols and gave her a hard time. So honestly, I can't really feel any reason to defend him for shoving her. There's no excuse for his behavior, and I'm leaving it at that. If it doesn't matter whether he knew she was pregnant or not then why did you bring it up to begin with? Cause I wanted to lol. There's really no reason behind it. Also I said "it doesn't matter" directly to him, not my post. Whether Thistleclaw knew she was pregnant or not because he shouldn't have done it in the first place. There's no excuse for it. Period. Frankly, I'm tired of people defending his awful behavior toward Bluefur. I don't understand people defending Thistleclaw for his terrible behavior toward Bluefur. He threatened to take Whitekit away, disrespected her during hunting patrols, threatened to kill Oakheart, and many other horrible things, the Spottedleaf thing included. He's a horrible person.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 29, 2021 11:43:04 GMT -5
Like before, SpH made me neutral. I'm more frustrated with how the Erins just did not know what to do with his character for years.
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Post by shnuky (in real life) on Sept 29, 2021 12:01:43 GMT -5
I voted "dislike" but honestly it's complex, I have a love-hate relationship with him. Love because, and I don't know why people say this is bad writing or inconsistent genuinely don't, he's always shown again and again to be a worse and worse cat since the start, he came out of the womb awful and got progressively more and more evil, there is no redeeming this guy and there's no question about it. I think that's wonderful, a great job on the Erin's part, he is disgusting and annoying and pure evil and a smelly old man and a bloodthisrty bastard clown and a saggy rotten mange-pelt. He is bad to the core, and I love it, and I hate him, and I love to hate him you know?? It's fun to point at him and go "there goes the ridiculous Thistleclaw! Everyone point and laugh and this old evil thing" and we do and it's great. I like to bully him, but sometimes I'd rather not see him sometimes it's a bit too much to swallow and too annoying and we put him in the garbage and leave there, we can come back and laugh at him later. I guess it's how I feel about Ashfur? But I hate Thistleclaw more and think Ashfur is funnier.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 29, 2021 12:51:42 GMT -5
If it doesn't matter whether he knew she was pregnant or not then why did you bring it up to begin with? Cause I wanted to lol. There's really no reason behind it. Also I said "it doesn't matter" directly to him, not my post. Whether Thistleclaw knew she was pregnant or not because he shouldn't have done it in the first place. There's no excuse for it. Period. Frankly, I'm tired of people defending his awful behavior toward Bluefur. I don't understand people defending Thistleclaw for his terrible behavior toward Bluefur. He threatened to take Whitekit away, disrespected her during hunting patrols, threatened to kill Oakheart, and many other horrible things, the Spottedleaf thing included. He's a horrible person. How can he "threaten to take Whitekit away" when Whitekit isn't even Bluefur's to begin with? The only thing he threatened was not allowing them to play together, but this was clearly toothless given Bluefur continued to work with Whitekit without any issues. Yeah, rest of the stuff isn't great, no one is saying it is.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 13:09:32 GMT -5
Cause I wanted to lol. There's really no reason behind it. Also I said "it doesn't matter" directly to him, not my post. Whether Thistleclaw knew she was pregnant or not because he shouldn't have done it in the first place. There's no excuse for it. Period. Frankly, I'm tired of people defending his awful behavior toward Bluefur. I don't understand people defending Thistleclaw for his terrible behavior toward Bluefur. He threatened to take Whitekit away, disrespected her during hunting patrols, threatened to kill Oakheart, and many other horrible things, the Spottedleaf thing included. He's a horrible person. How can he "threaten to take Whitekit away" when Whitekit isn't even Bluefur's to begin with? The only thing he threatened was not allowing them to play together, but this was clearly toothless given Bluefur continued to work with Whitekit without any issues. Yeah, rest of the stuff isn't great, no one is saying it is. But Whitekit is still Bluefur's family, even if he isn't hers. She's right when she said that he's kin. Thistleclaw was cruel about it, there's really no other way to say it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 29, 2021 13:11:43 GMT -5
How can he "threaten to take Whitekit away" when Whitekit isn't even Bluefur's to begin with? The only thing he threatened was not allowing them to play together, but this was clearly toothless given Bluefur continued to work with Whitekit without any issues. Yeah, rest of the stuff isn't great, no one is saying it is. But Whitekit is still Bluefur's family, even if he isn't hers. She's right when she said that he's kin. Thistleclaw was cruel about it, there's really no other way to say it. No one's saying he's not a jerk, the issue is over the degree of badness. Telling Bluefur that she only plays with Whitekit while he allows it is a jerk move. It's not however the same as "taking Whitekit away".
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 13:17:45 GMT -5
But Whitekit is still Bluefur's family, even if he isn't hers. She's right when she said that he's kin. Thistleclaw was cruel about it, there's really no other way to say it. No one's saying he's not a jerk, the issue is over the degree of badness. Telling Bluefur that she only plays with Whitekit while he allows it is a jerk move. It's not however the same as "taking Whitekit away". This is exactly what happens. Thistleclaw leaped down and faced her. “You know what your problem is, Bluefur? You’re soft. Soft on warriors from other Clans and soft on kittypets. I saw you talking to Oakheart at the Gathering. Do you care about your Clan at all?” “Of course I do!” Bluefur hissed. How dare he make her defend her loyalty?
"And I wasn’t exactly having a friendly chat with Oakheart!” “Well, I need more proof before I let you near Whitekit.” Thistleclaw headed back into the trees. Bluefur hurried after. “He’s my kin, too!” “You weren’t there when he needed you,” Thistleclaw snarled. “I was. Just keep away from him…or I’ll make you.”
He literally threatened her, I don't understand how this isn't a bad thing.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 29, 2021 13:30:10 GMT -5
No one's saying he's not a jerk, the issue is over the degree of badness. Telling Bluefur that she only plays with Whitekit while he allows it is a jerk move. It's not however the same as "taking Whitekit away". This is exactly what happens. Thistleclaw leaped down and faced her. “You know what your problem is, Bluefur? You’re soft. Soft on warriors from other Clans and soft on kittypets. I saw you talking to Oakheart at the Gathering. Do you care about your Clan at all?” “Of course I do!” Bluefur hissed. How dare he make her defend her loyalty?
"And I wasn’t exactly having a friendly chat with Oakheart!” “Well, I need more proof before I let you near Whitekit.” Thistleclaw headed back into the trees. Bluefur hurried after. “He’s my kin, too!” “You weren’t there when he needed you,” Thistleclaw snarled. “I was. Just keep away from him…or I’ll make you.”
He literally threatened her, I don't understand how this isn't a bad thing. No one is saying it isn't a bad thing, you're not listening to what I'm saying. I'm just talking about the degree of badness, not whether it is bad or not.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2021 13:40:43 GMT -5
This is exactly what happens. Thistleclaw leaped down and faced her. “You know what your problem is, Bluefur? You’re soft. Soft on warriors from other Clans and soft on kittypets. I saw you talking to Oakheart at the Gathering. Do you care about your Clan at all?” “Of course I do!” Bluefur hissed. How dare he make her defend her loyalty?
"And I wasn’t exactly having a friendly chat with Oakheart!” “Well, I need more proof before I let you near Whitekit.” Thistleclaw headed back into the trees. Bluefur hurried after. “He’s my kin, too!” “You weren’t there when he needed you,” Thistleclaw snarled. “I was. Just keep away from him…or I’ll make you.”
He literally threatened her, I don't understand how this isn't a bad thing. No one is saying it isn't a bad thing, you're not listening to what I'm saying. I'm just talking about the degree of badness, not whether it is bad or not. I suppose. We'll just have to agree to disagree about this, then.
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akiko
I am here to slayyy
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Post by akiko on Sept 29, 2021 17:16:49 GMT -5
To be honest, I feel like Bluestar just kind of brought his dislike of her on herself based on how she acted when they were younger. At the time, it really wasn't warranted, as she was just sorta rude and found him annoying simply because he was a bit of an energetic and slightly bossy kit. He was still a good cat when he was younger, specifically to Snowfur and his siblings, and I have my doubts he wasn't aware of the blue-grey cat's disdain for him.
Although there's nothing indicating what caused Thistleclaw to turn into a complete menace, we have to take into account three things: -Big events in his life -How other cats treated him -The time he spent in the Dark Forest
Anyway, back to the topic at hand: when Bluestar was still an apprentice, Thistleclaw was still a kit in the nursery. Bluepaw was often somewhat mean and grumpy toward him, finding young Thistlekit annoying for simply being a bit of a boisterous kit. He was nothing like Tigerkit or Brokenkit were when they were kits, more like how Berrykit or Birchkit had been. When he was a newer apprentice, he was just overly proud and cocky, which isn't out of the norm for nearly every apprentice. Snowpaw was lonely and spent time with the younger apprentice and Bluepaw was jealous even though she didn't spend much time with her sister at the time. It was still no reason to hate Thistlepaw. I'm willing to bet that he felt she may have been a threat to his relationship and he probably caught on fast that she didn't like him. Keep in mind that young Bluepaw was the narrator, and she often overexaggerated traits in cats she disliked within her mind. When Snowfur became a warrior, I'm guessing Thistlepaw's ambition to be a warrior alongside her grew along with his ambition to lead and protect the Clan. It is around then that he purposely begins to bother Bluefur for his own amusement, which I'm willing to guess is because he feel like she didn't respect him. Respect is obviously something he desired.
I'm guessing his grief in Snowfur may have deepened his dislike for Bluefur, turning it into hatred. He really did blame her for his mate's death and probably felt like she was trying to take everything away from him, hence why he was possessive of his son. It was irrational but I can imagine that was how he'd have thought. It was after her death that he really spiralled.
I'm trying to figure out just when he decided to train in the Dark Forest, so a novel of his own would be quite helpful. I'm guessing either as a young apprentice or around the time of Snowfur's death since Dark Forest cats like to prey upon the vulnerabilities of young cats during tough times. Either way, after that he knew he wanted to be an ambitious and unkind Dark Forest cat, as he pretty much said he didn't care about morals during Spottedleaf's Heart. Around that time in his life is when his morals just completely seem to go POOF into nonexistence. I'd have to reread the book to know his relationship with Spottedpaw better, however, since without remembering exact dialogue I cannot discern his intentions, whether it's to be her mate or just lure her into the Dark Forest lifestyle. A six-month-old cat is young enough for the Dark Forest cats to taint with their ways but old and technically considered an adult cat, meaning their bodies should be strong enough to take what they're throwing at them with their harsh training sessions. In another six months they will also be a warrior, so having apprentices on their side is beneficial, especially since the Dark Forest seems to have a thing for younger warriors becoming leaders and destroying the Clans with "youthful blood", lol.
Thistleclaw's ambitions and vulnerabilities are what turned him into the monster he became, in my opinion. Maybe he was even insecure when he was first with Snowpaw. I believe Bluepaw's initial disdain for this guy was unfair at first. I noted this last time I read Bluestar's Prophecy. She just seemed to antagonize him for no reason until he started doing it back. Snowfur wanted them to get along. I don't know if Thistlepaw was willing to at first but Bluefur was completely closed off to this idea.
There's nothing on what happened with Thistleclaw under Bluestar's leadership, other than that he died and was still bloodthirsty. I can assume by how he acts about the Dark Forest in Spottedleaf's Heart and while he's dead that he is absolutely about ambition and power, likely deciding to stay in ThunderClan because of Tigerclaw or something.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 5, 2021 16:47:09 GMT -5
Strong and brave warrior, loyal and reliable clanmate, loving and caring friend to his mate, good father to his son and mentor to his apprentice. He deserves nine lives and Starclan not less than Bluefur. His only fault that we saw him from very prejudiced Bluefur’s point of view. I wouldn't say he was a good mentor. He was noted to be rough with his apprentice. Not only that, but he also trained in the Dark Forest and knew exactly what he was doing, so he wasn't completely loyal, either. And even if you want to argue that he was only doing it for his Clan, he was still incredibly battle-hungry to the point of vowing to mark the borders with the blood of their enemies. Metaphor or not, the fact that he said it at all should say something. And it couldn't have been a front either, as Oakheart had already left. There is, after all, such a thing as too much loyalty. Every PoV is biased to an extent, but that can really only excuse so much. It'd be one thing if Bluefur had been a genuine unreliable narrator, but she wasn't, as nothing in her PoV ever indicates that she's wrong about Thistleclaw being as brutal as he'd been. His love for his family? Even the most despicable people in history weren't completely heartless. At best, his scenes with Snowfur simply show that he had standards.
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