Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 18, 2021 15:01:19 GMT -5
How Bright Guardian Akira sees it:
Sunnyfall's take on it:
The fact that three books which released this year focused on morally gray characters is very interesting to me even though I agree with both of the opinions above that Blackfoot's Reckoning and Leopardstar's Honor did a questionable job at portraying this concept in a well thought out way. Winds of Change at least did not excuse Mudclaw's behaviour or tried to make him out as being a secretly misunderstood hero.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 18, 2021 15:49:58 GMT -5
Mmmm. No. I'd say WoC did try to make Mudclaw seem somewhat more honorable than he was. And then tried to redeem him after he died.
I think Blackstar honestly has the best redemption as a character, but partially because he does things as Blackfoot under leader's orders. Does he do terrible things? Yes, but his duty was to Shadowclan and Brokenstar/Tigerstar respectively while Mudclaw and Leopardstar both nearly destroyed their own clans out of their pride and poor decision making. Probably why I find Blackstar to be more tolerable than the other two
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Post by cable on Sept 18, 2021 15:57:45 GMT -5
havent read leopardstars se so i wont comment there, but idk who woc was even for. it does nothing good for mudclaw if you did like him and makes him even more intolerable if you already didnt
blackfoots novella was actually p good, and thats not just me liking him. i feel like even as he tried to justify himself, that narrative framed it so that we knew he was just making excuses to ignore his feelings of guilt. it helps that, barring the sol incident (which i could write a brief analysis on why that was meaningful to his character too lol), blackstar usually was pretty reasonable and tried to do the what was best for his clan.
again, havent read leopardstars se so maybe thatll change my mind on her shrug
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 18, 2021 16:20:56 GMT -5
havent read leopardstars se so i wont comment there, but idk who woc was even for. it does nothing good for mudclaw if you did like him and makes him even more intolerable if you already didnt blackfoots novella was actually p good, and thats not just me like him. ifeel like even as he tried to justify himself, that narrative framed it so that we knew he was just making excuses to ignore his feelings of guilt, and it makes it more satisfying when he finally accepts what hes done and how hes hurt others. it helps that, barring the sol incident (which i could write a brief analysis on why that was meaningful to his character too lol), blackstar usually was pretty reasonable and tried to do the what was best for his clan. again, havent read leopardstars se so maybe thatll change my mind on her shrug If you hate Leopardstar, I don't think her SE will change much. It shows her doing...a lot
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 18, 2021 16:24:39 GMT -5
Mmmm. No. I'd say WoC did try to make Mudclaw seem somewhat more honorable than he was. And then tried to redeem him after he died. I think Blackstar honestly has the best redemption as a character, but partially because he does things as Blackfoot under leader's orders. Does he do terrible things? Yes, but his duty was to Shadowclan and Brokenstar/Tigerstar respectively while Mudclaw and Leopardstar both nearly destroyed their own clans out of their pride and poor decision making. Probably why I find Blackstar to be more tolerable than the other two I have to disagree with you on that. Mudclaw was shown to be even worse in his GN and also asked StarClan himself why he was allowed to join their ranks. While that's still not a good redemption by any means I guess it wasn't supposed to be. Blackstar suddenly became self aware in his novella even though previously being completely devoid of remorse during his worst scenes in the first arc screeching "Filth! Filth!" in regards to Featherpaw and Stormpaw and then telling Darkstripe to get a move on in killing Stonefur before doing it himself are scenes I will never be able to fully forgive or forget. Leopardstar isn't much better and the fact that she as well suddenly grew a backbone and conscience in her SE felt rather forced. I would have much preferred it if they both had stayed more "on the edge" so to speak instead of getting turned into cats that "meant well/were just following orders".
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 18, 2021 18:19:35 GMT -5
Mmmm. No. I'd say WoC did try to make Mudclaw seem somewhat more honorable than he was. And then tried to redeem him after he died. I think Blackstar honestly has the best redemption as a character, but partially because he does things as Blackfoot under leader's orders. Does he do terrible things? Yes, but his duty was to Shadowclan and Brokenstar/Tigerstar respectively while Mudclaw and Leopardstar both nearly destroyed their own clans out of their pride and poor decision making. Probably why I find Blackstar to be more tolerable than the other two I have to disagree with you on that. Mudclaw was shown to be even worse in his GN and also asked StarClan himself why he was allowed to join their ranks. While that's still not a good redemption by any means I guess it wasn't supposed to be. Blackstar suddenly became self aware in his novella even though previously being completely devoid of remorse during his worst scenes in the first arc screeching "Filth! Filth!" in regards to Featherpaw and Stormpaw and then telling Darkstripe to get a move on in killing Stonefur before doing it himself are scenes I will never be able to fully forgive or forget. Leopardstar isn't much better and the fact that she as well suddenly grew a backbone and conscience in her SE felt rather forced. I would have much preferred it if they both had stayed more "on the edge" so to speak instead of getting turned into cats that "meant well/were just following orders". I only mention Blackstar as following orders because it was never his job to keep cats safe or the clans in order - but Mudclaw was offered the deputy position again by Onestar and Leopardstar was Leopardstar. They DID have the responsibilities to their clans, which makes their actions worse. As for Blackstar, I don't think watering him down to just following orders is fair either. Blackstar is inherently a follower and easily swayed. We see that with Brokenstar and Tigerstar and again with Sol. And he's always kind of acknowledged as a shady but powerful leader while they try to paint Leopardstar as some sort of honorable and good leader after all she does
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Post by Rainsplash on Sept 18, 2021 18:54:07 GMT -5
meh on all three, but I enjoyed the books themselves. Though I feel like all three got their protagonists to be more noble than we saw in the main arcs.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 19, 2021 5:10:39 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you on that. Mudclaw was shown to be even worse in his GN and also asked StarClan himself why he was allowed to join their ranks. While that's still not a good redemption by any means I guess it wasn't supposed to be. Blackstar suddenly became self aware in his novella even though previously being completely devoid of remorse during his worst scenes in the first arc screeching "Filth! Filth!" in regards to Featherpaw and Stormpaw and then telling Darkstripe to get a move on in killing Stonefur before doing it himself are scenes I will never be able to fully forgive or forget. Leopardstar isn't much better and the fact that she as well suddenly grew a backbone and conscience in her SE felt rather forced. I would have much preferred it if they both had stayed more "on the edge" so to speak instead of getting turned into cats that "meant well/were just following orders". I only mention Blackstar as following orders because it was never his job to keep cats safe or the clans in order - but Mudclaw was offered the deputy position again by Onestar and Leopardstar was Leopardstar. They DID have the responsibilities to their clans, which makes their actions worse. As for Blackstar, I don't think watering him down to just following orders is fair either. Blackstar is inherently a follower and easily swayed. We see that with Brokenstar and Tigerstar and again with Sol. And he's always kind of acknowledged as a shady but powerful leader while they try to paint Leopardstar as some sort of honorable and good leader after all she does Blackfoot was also deputy of his Clan and got appointed to this position twice. Granted, neither of his leaders were ever really concerned with properly taking care of ShadowClan but this didn't really absolve him or Brokenstar and Tigerstar of their responsibilites. It just made them all be bad at their job and look much worse as individuals. That being said, I still despise Mudclaw and have a certain level of disdain for both Leopardstar and Blackstar as the latter two were made out to be far more honorable than they actually were during the first arc in their own books and not only remained leaders until dying but also went to StarClan despite all three of them having mediocre redemption arcs at best.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 19, 2021 16:36:41 GMT -5
Haven't watched the videos but felt like commenting on the Blackstar discussion.
Blackstar's novella is taking place post-epiphany, and the framing of the book is such that he's viewing his own memories through the lens of said epiphany-- so he feels a lot of guilt and remorse as the memories are played back to him. That doesn't change the (flawed) thought process he had behind his actions in the moment they were happening, which imo the book does a really good job at portraying as bad and not watering it down. It just means that as he's confronted with his sins, he has to reckon with them, hence the title of the book. This involves making justifications and excuses, yes, but that's a normal human reaction when confronted with your sins. And by the end of the book, he's moved past the excuses and recognizes that he did horrible things, some of which he won't be forgiven for. But it's that recognition and acceptance that makes him a far better character and person than Leopardstar, who at the end of the day still sees herself as a victim of circumstance.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 19, 2021 19:27:33 GMT -5
Haven't watched the videos but felt like commenting on the Blackstar discussion. Blackstar's novella is taking place post-epiphany, and the framing of the book is such that he's viewing his own memories through the lens of said epiphany-- so he feels a lot of guilt and remorse as the memories are played back to him. That doesn't change the (flawed) thought process he had behind his actions in the moment they were happening, which imo the book does a really good job at portraying as bad and not watering it down. It just means that as he's confronted with his sins, he has to reckon with them, hence the title of the book. This involves making justifications and excuses, yes, but that's a normal human reaction when confronted with your sins. And by the end of the book, he's moved past the excuses and recognizes that he did horrible things, some of which he won't be forgiven for. But it's that recognition and acceptance that makes him a far better character and person than Leopardstar, who at the end of the day still sees herself as a victim of circumstance. You've summed this up more beautifully than I could.
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