Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 18, 2021 12:40:22 GMT -5
First of all, I adore Whitestorm and personally wouldn't have anything against him actually being confirmed to be the father of Ferncloud and Ashfur or having been in a relationship with Brindleface because the thought of Thistleclaw as Ashfur's grandfather seemed fitting despite me also not liking the implication of "genetic evil".
When it comes to the assumption of Whitestorm in this instance pulling an Appledusk or Blizzardwing I just thought him to be in a poly relationship with both Brindeface and Willowpelt instead even though that is not confirmed (and probably not true). The fact that the other actual implied poly couples in the series which were Toadskip, Nettlespot and Poolcloud during Yellowfang's Secret and Smoky, Daisy and Floss in the TNP arc aren't good representation (Gray Wing, Turtle Tail and Slate or Graystripe, Silverstream and Millie would be much better rep) still makes me wish for such a dynamic to get focused on properly and in a healthy way somewhere soon in the near future of these books.
Lastly, either Runningwind or Darkstripe (who is also the half brother of Graystripe, Sootfur, Rainwhisker and Sorreltail) getting confirmed as the true father of Ashfur and Ferncloud would be an interesting idea as well. But I agree with Moonkitti that it doesn't really matter anymore or in the end because the first series cats were all underdeveloped and had rushed family trees overall anyways. We'll see if anything else concerning this matter turns up as canon information one day.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 18, 2021 12:53:11 GMT -5
I am watching the video now. I think she makes a lot of good points about how Whitestorm being the father of both Ferncloud and Sorreltail messes with genetic diversity, especially with how large their families are.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 18, 2021 12:54:29 GMT -5
Either poly, Brindleface just wanted kits and Whitestorm offered to become a surrogate, or the two actually were together and had an amicable breakup before he moved on to Willowpelt (especially considering her kits were born much later than Brindleface's were), assuming he's the father of her kits at all. And on that note, even the timeline itself is weird, since Ashpaw and Fernpaw should've been made apprentices at least not long after Cloudkit joined ThunderClan.
Either way, I highly doubt Whitestorm committed something as serious and dishonorable as infidelity. It simply wouldn't be in his character.
Aa far as genetics go, I just don't care at all. The series is already a mess with that, anyway.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 18, 2021 14:20:44 GMT -5
i'd rather have lionheart be the father of brindle's kits ash and fern. idk who else it could be but i dont like whitestorm being ash and fern's dad. whitestorm, in my mind, is the dad of ONLY sorrel, rain, and soot.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 18, 2021 15:21:07 GMT -5
i'd rather have lionheart be the father of brindle's kits ash and fern. idk who else it could be but i dont like whitestorm being ash and fern's dad. whitestorm, in my mind, is the dad of ONLY sorrel, rain, and soot. But that would be questionable for Lionheart's character instead as he was mates with Frostfur and fathered Brackenfur, Cinderpelt, Thornclaw and Brightheart before dying. I agree with Moonkitti that he had way less characterization than Whitestorm due to already getting killed off in the first book while Whitestorm died in the last of the arc but Lionheart is still portayed as a noble and honorable cat while getting shown as a StarClan ghost during the later main arcs or in other side material like Bluestar's Prophecy and Pinestar's Choice. My take on it is either a poly relationship involving BrindleWhiteWillow or Darkstripe as the father of Ashfur and Ferncloud just for fun.
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Bisexual
ravenmoon
"I'm smarter than you!" - Gary Smith
Pronouns: Any pronouns fine
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Post by ravenmoon on Sept 18, 2021 15:34:04 GMT -5
I already commented on the youtube video but,, in my headcanon Whitestorm is the bio father of Ashfur and Ferncloud but he wasn't mates with Brindleface. He was a donor male because Redtail was infertile.
That being said, I personally do not care if Whitestorm is the dad or not. The Erins do not care about genetics so I don't personally take genetics into consideration in arguments. I don't get why everyone's whining about it "rUiNiNg" Whitestorm when "fancanon" literally exists meaning you can take out and edit stuff to fit your headcanon :T Also Poly relationships exists, he could have also been mates with her but broke up before he got with Willow, or he could have just been a donor.
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Post by Rainsplash on Sept 18, 2021 18:45:44 GMT -5
I just push it for Redtail to be Ferncloud and Ashfur's father
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Post by kells on Sept 18, 2021 20:41:11 GMT -5
I've always preferred the old family trees, it made it seem like instead of a bunch of monogamy, most of the mates were actually just hook-ups, which felt much more realistic to me than every cat developing an overly anthropomorphized romantic subplot
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 18, 2021 20:48:21 GMT -5
I've always preferred the old family trees, it made it seem like instead of a bunch of monogamy, most of the mates were actually just hook-ups, which felt much more realistic to me than every cat developing an overly anthropomorphized romantic subplot i agree with this. this is why i have no problem for headcanoning lionheart as ash and fern's dad instead of whitestorm. for me, its more a story thing because i dont want whitestorm (and by extension, bluestar) be related to trashfur. but i dont care much about lionheart, so i donnt care if he was their dad instead. in my family trees, where i use headcanons or the theme of "if the prequels didnt exist and i made stuff up," i have cats have multiple mates while still keeping clear of the obvious mistakes like dustpelt being frost, brindle, and raven's brother, making him his mate's uncle...avoiding that kind of stuff could be very easy if they just had more logical family tree deicions, but nope...prequels always mess things up.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 18, 2021 20:52:57 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆Dustpelt being the younger brother of Frostfur and Brindleface makes absolutely NO sense, it doesn't take away any from the story for them to not be related, and the only thing it DOES add is that Dustpelt is now Ferncloud's uncle, who he was mates with in canon before the family tree was even decided.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 18, 2021 21:01:22 GMT -5
um. i always assumed it was a clan culture thing, and never say poly or cheating or whatever as an option. just that tomcats often fathered kits without necessarily being involved or long term mates with the mothers. it happened a lot in the first series, although they later shifted away from that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2021 21:05:52 GMT -5
Problem? Did people just forget everyone had multiple mates and litters in the first series
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 18, 2021 21:09:45 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ Dustpelt being the younger brother of Frostfur and Brindleface makes absolutely NO sense, it doesn't take away any from the story for them to not be related, and the only thing it DOES add is that Dustpelt is now Ferncloud's uncle, who he was mates with in canon before the family tree was even decided. dust and raven were never intended to be brothers anyways because they dont even interact or act like brothers. if they were supposed to be brothers all along, then dustpelt must have HATED his brother which makes him even more of a jerk in the first arc lmao frostfur and brindleface being sisters makes no sense to me because my logic is like "they dont look alike so i dont like it"
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Post by Chicken on Sept 18, 2021 22:26:11 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ Dustpelt being the younger brother of Frostfur and Brindleface makes absolutely NO sense, it doesn't take away any from the story for them to not be related, and the only thing it DOES add is that Dustpelt is now Ferncloud's uncle, who he was mates with in canon before the family tree was even decided. dust and raven were never intended to be brothers anyways because they dont even interact or act like brothers. if they were supposed to be brothers all along, then dustpelt must have HATED his brother which makes him even more of a jerk in the first arc lmao frostfur and brindleface being sisters makes no sense to me because my logic is like "they dont look alike so i dont like it" Idc about if they look the same, because IRL kits in the same litter can look drastically different. Like, there can be an orange cat and a black cat in the same litter, and as long as they're both toms, it'll be genetically correct. Plus, I'd be a bit annoyed if the parents looked the same, thus causing the children to look the same. With people it's that way too, I look nothing like my siblings, they're all broad with brown hair and brown eyes, whereas I'm lanky with black hair and green eyes, so it's all about the genetics from both parents.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 18, 2021 22:29:16 GMT -5
dust and raven were never intended to be brothers anyways because they dont even interact or act like brothers. if they were supposed to be brothers all along, then dustpelt must have HATED his brother which makes him even more of a jerk in the first arc lmao frostfur and brindleface being sisters makes no sense to me because my logic is like "they dont look alike so i dont like it" Idc about if they look the same, because IRL kits in the same litter can look drastically different. Like, there can be an orange cat and a black cat in the same litter, and as long as they're both toms, it'll be genetically correct. Plus, I'd be a bit annoyed if the parents looked the same, thus causing the children to look the same. With people it's that way too, I look nothing like my siblings, they're all broad with brown hair and brown eyes, whereas I'm lanky with black hair and green eyes, so it's all about the genetics from both parents. i guess so, but it bothers me because robinwing (ignoring her stupid ginger chest spot) is solid brown, and fuzzypelt is solid black, so like...where and why did their kits come out all wrong? at least ravenpaw came out black like his dad, but that's about it. dustpelt bring a brown tabby, and brindle being a gray (spotted) tabby? WHY? and WHITE? FROSTFUR BEING WHITE WITH *THESE* PARENTS? i hate it so muuuuuch!
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Post by Chicken on Sept 18, 2021 22:36:16 GMT -5
Idc about if they look the same, because IRL kits in the same litter can look drastically different. Like, there can be an orange cat and a black cat in the same litter, and as long as they're both toms, it'll be genetically correct. Plus, I'd be a bit annoyed if the parents looked the same, thus causing the children to look the same. With people it's that way too, I look nothing like my siblings, they're all broad with brown hair and brown eyes, whereas I'm lanky with black hair and green eyes, so it's all about the genetics from both parents. i guess so, but it bothers me because robinwing (ignoring her stupid ginger chest spot) is solid brown, and fuzzypelt is solid black, so like...where and why did their kits come out all wrong? at least ravenpaw came out black like his dad, but that's about it. dustpelt bring a brown tabby, and brindle being a gray (spotted) tabby? WHY? and WHITE? FROSTFUR BEING WHITE WITH *THESE* PARENTS? i hate it so muuuuuch! I wonder if her ginger chest would make her a tortie? But other than that, if she's a solid and Fuzzypelt is a solid, they can't have a tabby, though two tabbies could have a solid.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 18, 2021 22:37:29 GMT -5
i guess so, but it bothers me because robinwing (ignoring her stupid ginger chest spot) is solid brown, and fuzzypelt is solid black, so like...where and why did their kits come out all wrong? at least ravenpaw came out black like his dad, but that's about it. dustpelt bring a brown tabby, and brindle being a gray (spotted) tabby? WHY? and WHITE? FROSTFUR BEING WHITE WITH *THESE* PARENTS? i hate it so muuuuuch! I wonder if her ginger chest would make her a tortie? But other than that, if she's a solid and Fuzzypelt is a solid, they can't have a tabby, though two tabbies could have a solid. hmm i guess it could be simplified to make robin a chocolate tortie? and another one, swift and adder, both brown tabbies and they had wild kinds of kids too. black solid, torties, pale gray, etc. like wtf were the editors thinking making all of them related too?
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Post by Chicken on Sept 18, 2021 22:38:26 GMT -5
I wonder if her ginger chest would make her a tortie? But other than that, if she's a solid and Fuzzypelt is a solid, they can't have a tabby, though two tabbies could have a solid. hmm i guess it could be simplified to make robin a chocolate tortie? and another one, swift and adder, both brown tabbies and they had wild kinds of kids too. black solid, torties, pale gray, etc. like wtf were the editors thinking making all of them related too? I think they just come up with a design and just pull the family members out of a hat lol
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Post by tallshadowstar on Sept 19, 2021 16:46:27 GMT -5
I think that the issue with paternity really stems from the Erins not caring much about familial relationships in the first arc. TPB was only really concerned with who-fathered-who when it was relevant to the plot. In terms of cats who have explicitly named fathers within the books themselves, we have the following:
- Mistyfoot and Stonefur (Oakheart) - Featherpaw and Stormpaw (Graystripe) - Tawnypaw and Bramblepaw (Tigerstar)
There are also hints to paternity, such as with Willowpelt's litter, but these are relegated to short lines of dialogue like what was mentioned in the video. It's there, but it's not super relevant.
This formula of only revealing the father of a litter when the plot required it worked for the first arc, because romantic relationships were pretty few and far between. But it began to fall apart in TNP, when established characters began to take mates and reproduce; and then it imploded completely in PO3, when characters all had their respective mates clearly defined. For example, there was no reason to reveal who fathered Brindleface's kits, because she had never been shown being romantically involved with anyone. But it wouldn't make sense to not specify who fathered, say, Sorreltail's kits, because she was clearly shown to be with Brackenfur. And as we continue to get more and more prequel books focusing on the first arc and earlier, the Erins seem to want to bring the older generations' view on romance more in line with the modern for consistency's sake, even if it messes with genetics and character motivations.
I think this also speaks to increasing anthropomorphism within the series past the first arc. Warriors has always been xenofiction and the cats were never going to behave exactly like domestic cats (and nor should they), but the cats were much more cat-like within TPB. The modern books would never reference things like Rusty going to 'the cutter', for instance, and the cats don't just go 'mrrrrowwww' in lieu of dialogue anymore. In a similar vein, male domestic cats aren't involved with raising their litters, and the first series reflected this. In another example from the first arc, Whitestorm is hinted at being the father of Soot, Rain and Sorrel only a handful of times; Willowpelt, however, is consistently mentioned as their mother because she's the one raising them, not Whitestorm. But as the cats became more and more human in their behaviour, the concept of having the majority of male characters being completely uninvolved in their children's lives became less palatable. This isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing; just a way that the series has evolved with time.
As far as my own headcanons go, I like to pretend that Whitestorm was involved with Willowpelt, but covered for Brindleface after she had an extra-Clan relationship. This only ever came up when cats bugged Brindleface about parentage, so Ash and Fern never knew or cared about their dad. Willowpelt knew this and understood, as she herself had previously had litters sired by rogues. There's no evidence for this whatsoever, but it fits well with Whitestorm being an honorable guy and the lack of a canon dad for Graystripe and Darkstripe.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 19, 2021 18:52:48 GMT -5
I think that the issue with paternity really stems from the Erins not caring much about familial relationships in the first arc. TPB was only really concerned with who-fathered-who when it was relevant to the plot. In terms of cats who have explicitly named fathers within the books themselves, we have the following: - Mistyfoot and Stonefur (Oakheart) - Featherpaw and Stormpaw (Graystripe) - Tawnypaw and Bramblepaw (Tigerstar) There are also hints to paternity, such as with Willowpelt's litter, but these are relegated to short lines of dialogue like what was mentioned in the video. It's there, but it's not super relevant. This formula of only revealing the father of a litter when the plot required it worked for the first arc, because romantic relationships were pretty few and far between. But it began to fall apart in TNP, when established characters began to take mates and reproduce; and then it imploded completely in PO3, when characters all had their respective mates clearly defined. For example, there was no reason to reveal who fathered Brindleface's kits, because she had never been shown being romantically involved with anyone. But it wouldn't make sense to not specify who fathered, say, Sorreltail's kits, because she was clearly shown to be with Brackenfur. And as we continue to get more and more prequel books focusing on the first arc and earlier, the Erins seem to want to bring the older generations' view on romance more in line with the modern for consistency's sake, even if it messes with genetics and character motivations. I think this also speaks to increasing anthropomorphism within the series past the first arc. Warriors has always been xenofiction and the cats were never going to behave exactly like domestic cats (and nor should they), but the cats were much more cat-like within TPB. The modern books would never reference things like Rusty going to 'the cutter', for instance, and the cats don't just go ' mrrrrowwww' in lieu of dialogue anymore. In a similar vein, male domestic cats aren't involved with raising their litters, and the first series reflected this. In another example from the first arc, Whitestorm is hinted at being the father of Soot, Rain and Sorrel only a handful of times; Willowpelt, however, is consistently mentioned as their mother because she's the one raising them, not Whitestorm. But as the cats became more and more human in their behaviour, the concept of having the majority of male characters being completely uninvolved in their children's lives became less palatable. This isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing; just a way that the series has evolved with time. As far as my own headcanons go, I like to pretend that Whitestorm was involved with Willowpelt, but covered for Brindleface after she had an extra-Clan relationship. This only ever came up when cats bugged Brindleface about parentage, so Ash and Fern never knew or cared about their dad. Willowpelt knew this and understood, as she herself had previously had litters sired by rogues. There's no evidence for this whatsoever, but it fits well with Whitestorm being an honorable guy and the lack of a canon dad for Graystripe and Darkstripe. this is exactly the way I think of it, minus the headcanon. The depicted culture was just different in the first series. A great example is in PO3 (?) with Spiderleg becoming uncomfortable about having kits with Daisy, and various clanmates putting pressure on him to be an active father. Whereas in the first series, a father not being involved was relatively normal. See Frostfur, Willowpelt, Brindleface, Speckletail, etc. There was of course some toms who did get involved, like Tigerstar, Oakheart, Raggedstar. So that wasnt like “weird”. But it wasn’t necessarily expected unless the parents were committed mates, like Sandstorm and Firestar.
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