#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 5, 2021 17:47:14 GMT -5
But I also still don't understand why Rowanstar was suddenly such a weak leader in AVoS even though he was doing fine previously in Bramblestar's SE. I've always theorized it was precisely because of his portrayal in BrS that things went so wrong. Because the thing is, he actually wasn't doing fine. He was clearly trying his best, but think about it: he became leader when Blackstar died during a flood, his Clanmates were starving, and he couldn't even defeat a bunch of kittypets and badgers without ThunderClan's help, without even asking them for it, and also had to ask ThunderClan to let him borrow one of their medicine cats to care for Dawnpelt. To a prideful Clan such as ShadowClan, they would've no doubt seen Rowanstar as weak and the apprentices would've adopted this mentality. Something like this doesn't usually happen overnight. It festers. And eventually, it boils over.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 5, 2021 17:52:18 GMT -5
But I also still don't understand why Rowanstar was suddenly such a weak leader in AVoS even though he was doing fine previously in Bramblestar's SE. I've always theorized it was precisely because of his portrayal in BrS that things went so wrong. Because the thing is, he actually wasn't doing fine. He was clearly trying his best, but think about it: he became leader when Blackstar died during a flood, his Clanmates were starving, and he couldn't even defeat a bunch of kittypets and badgers without ThunderClan's help, without even asking them for it, and also had to ask ThunderClan to let him borrow one of their medicine cats to care for Dawnpelt. To a prideful Clan such as ShadowClan, they would've no doubt seen Rowanstar as weak and the apprentices would've adopted this mentality. Something like this doesn't usually happen overnight. It festers. And eventually, it boils over. Now that I think about it you totally have a point with that. Still sad to see though and doesn't change how I feel about ShadowClan being in the wrong during this situation. Rowanstar didn't even stand a chance to prove himself.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 5, 2021 17:57:11 GMT -5
I've always theorized it was precisely because of his portrayal in BrS that things went so wrong. Because the thing is, he actually wasn't doing fine. He was clearly trying his best, but think about it: he became leader when Blackstar died during a flood, his Clanmates were starving, and he couldn't even defeat a bunch of kittypets and badgers without ThunderClan's help, without even asking them for it, and also had to ask ThunderClan to let him borrow one of their medicine cats to care for Dawnpelt. To a prideful Clan such as ShadowClan, they would've no doubt seen Rowanstar as weak and the apprentices would've adopted this mentality. Something like this doesn't usually happen overnight. It festers. And eventually, it boils over. Now that I think about it you totally have a point with that. Still sad to see though and doesn't change how I feel about ShadowClan being in the wrong during this situation. Rowanstar didn't even stand a chance to prove himself. Oh, definitely! If my theory's correct, then he was practically doomed from the start and it's a shame he never got the chance to prove himself.
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 5, 2021 17:58:28 GMT -5
The issue is that these Shadowclan cats clearly wanted to fight and be awful and be allowed to bully anyone they felt like. Rowanstar had no chance to even try and become a stronger leader because literally nothing he did would ever be good enough. He tries being peaceful, treated like he’s weak because of it. He tried being aggressive and planning to fight like his Clanmates had wanted so badly. Then he gets called aggressive and a fool for ever considering bringing his Clanmates to fight.
The fact that the Shadowclan cats basically watched with glee and malice as Rowanstar was hurt by Darktail and driven out of his own Clan showed me that they literally wanted to be no better than rouges. Then they cry and whine about being in a group of murderous rouges that they willingly joined??? And then they blame the same cat who did try to mend everything and was honestly the only one actually trying? It was so frustrating, and it baffles me that Rowanstar still loved and forgave them all and blamed everything on himself after his own Clanmates beat him down and refused to ever even let him try anything to lead the Clan better. He was doomed from the start and I will never forgive the writers for doing that crap.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 5, 2021 19:09:47 GMT -5
I understand all sides. Rowanstar wasn't a very good leader, but he didn't deserve the terrible treatment he got from the other warriors. Scorchfur's horrible bullying didn't help either, and Needletail was awful for blaming Rowanstar for her problems she caused.
But, at the same time, if Rowanstar actually listened to what his warriors needed, this wouldn't have happened. I truly believed that they didn't respect him enough because of this. Rowanstar was angry at Bramblestar for helping him instead of feeling grateful, he disrespected Tawnypelt for wanting help from her brother, didn't bother asking the warriors to take better care of Littlecloud, refused to listen to one of them when they warned him about the apprentices getting into their heads and basically told them to "deal with it", and probably other things. His clan had every right to lose respect for him because it felt to me he cared more about his own pride than the lives of his warriors. I'm not saying he's a bad cat, but that's how it felt to me when I reread AVoS, and I understand why some of his warriors followed Darktail.
However, this doesn't mean that their treatment toward him was okay. Rowanstar still cared about his clan, even if he only cared about his pride more than his warriors. It's been shown in the books. But, in the end, I think I'm siding with no one here. They were all at fault for ShadowClan's collapse, and it didn't help that Tigerheart left his clan to find Dovewing either.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 22, 2021 10:52:33 GMT -5
Next one up!
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Post by Aqua on Oct 22, 2021 13:19:04 GMT -5
Dovewing was scared for her kits' safety. I understand why she left. She tried to talk to Ivypool and Tigerheart, but Tigerheart didn't know how to support her, and Ivypool was too angry at her to talk. Dovewing's only other option to deal with this was to talk to another Clanmate, which would only reveal that she was seeing Tigerheart. And considering the clans went through a lot recently because of Darktail, I can understand why she felt scared. She isn't the only one who felt the same fears for her safety. Cats became kittypets because of the damage Darktail has done. While her choice to leave was pretty cowardly and hurt many cats, I understand her, and in the end, it's her life and her choices. Dovewing shouldn't feel obligated to stay with her clan and "owe" them anything. Dovewing's allowed to leave or stay, and if leaving was the right thing to do for herself, then I suppose it was. She just wanted to keep her kits safe, and she was pretty happy with the guardian cats. She eventually returned to the clans, explained to her birth clan why she's leaving, and moved to ShadowClan.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2021 13:26:46 GMT -5
*takes a deep breath and then exhales*
I think that Tigerheart was right to leave and should have done so much sooner than he actually did in the books, Dovewing should have told someone she was expecting kits (Ivypool or Jayfeather), Dovewing should have moved to ShadowClan if she didn't think their kits were safe in her birth Clan and she was also right to leave and should have done so way sooner.
*inhales and then catches breath again*
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Post by Aqua on Oct 22, 2021 13:46:07 GMT -5
*takes a deep breath and then exhales* I think that Tigerheart was right to leave and should have done so much sooner than he actually did in the books, Dovewing should have told someone she was expecting kits (Ivypool or Jayfeather), Dovewing should have moved to ShadowClan if she didn't think their kits were safe in her birth Clan and she was also right to leave and should have done so way sooner. *inhales and then catches breath again* The thing is that around the time Ivypool wanted nothing to do with her. Dovewing tried to talk but Ivypool wouldn't. Dovewing really didn't have anyone to talk to without revealing the secret to her Clanmates. It's pretty cowardly, but I get it.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2021 13:49:39 GMT -5
*takes a deep breath and then exhales* I think that Tigerheart was right to leave and should have done so much sooner than he actually did in the books, Dovewing should have told someone she was expecting kits (Ivypool or Jayfeather), Dovewing should have moved to ShadowClan if she didn't think their kits were safe in her birth Clan and she was also right to leave and should have done so way sooner. *inhales and then catches breath again* The thing is that around the time Ivypool wanted nothing to do with her. Dovewing tried to talk but Ivypool wouldn't. Dovewing really didn't have anyone to talk to without revealing the secret to her Clanmates. It's pretty cowardly, but I get it. I know and find it more sad than cowardly. She should have told Jayfeather or Alderheart though (probably not Lionblaze). I'm sure they wouldn't have said anything if Dovewing had asked them to keep it a secret. And they also could have checked her over to see if the kits are healthy and calm down some of her anxiety as a mother.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 22, 2021 13:53:30 GMT -5
The thing is that around the time Ivypool wanted nothing to do with her. Dovewing tried to talk but Ivypool wouldn't. Dovewing really didn't have anyone to talk to without revealing the secret to her Clanmates. It's pretty cowardly, but I get it. I know and find it more sad than cowardly. She could have told Jayfeather or Alderheart though (probably not Lionblaze). I'm sure they wouldn't have said anything if Dovewing had asked them to keep it a secret. And they also could have checked her over to see if the kits are healthy and perhaps calmed down some of her anxiety as a future mother. She really didn't have anyone to talk to. Not many cats understood her, and sometimes I felt even Ivypool couldn't understand her in a way. She was always angry at Dovewing breaking the warrior code and that's how she always saw her crimes, that she was disloyal to her clan instead of seeing it as seeing someone she loved. She didn't understand how she felt until she had a family of her own with Fernsong. I'm not saying this to bash Ivypool, but Dovewing just didn't have anyone to share her fears, which is likely the reason why she left in the first place. She tried to talk, but no one was there for her. I've always pitied Dovewing and her loneliness in ThunderClan, tbh.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2021 14:06:27 GMT -5
I know and find it more sad than cowardly. She could have told Jayfeather or Alderheart though (probably not Lionblaze). I'm sure they wouldn't have said anything if Dovewing had asked them to keep it a secret. And they also could have checked her over to see if the kits are healthy and perhaps calmed down some of her anxiety as a future mother. She really didn't have anyone to talk to. Not many cats understood her, and sometimes I felt even Ivypool couldn't understand her in a way. She was always angry at Dovewing breaking the warrior code and that's how she always saw her crimes, that she was disloyal to her clan instead of seeing it as seeing someone she loved. She didn't understand how she felt until she had a family of her own with Fernsong. I'm not saying this to bash Ivypool, but Dovewing just didn't have anyone to share her fears, which is likely the reason why she left in the first place. She tried to talk, but no one was there for her. I've always pitied Dovewing and her loneliness in ThunderClan, tbh. Once again, I know and this is why I suggested Jayfeather or Alderheart (the medicine cats). I'm well aware that Dovewing was lonely in ThunderClan which is why it's good for her that she is now happy in ShadowClan.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 22, 2021 16:04:41 GMT -5
She really didn't have anyone to talk to. Not many cats understood her, and sometimes I felt even Ivypool couldn't understand her in a way. She was always angry at Dovewing breaking the warrior code and that's how she always saw her crimes, that she was disloyal to her clan instead of seeing it as seeing someone she loved. She didn't understand how she felt until she had a family of her own with Fernsong. I'm not saying this to bash Ivypool, but Dovewing just didn't have anyone to share her fears, which is likely the reason why she left in the first place. She tried to talk, but no one was there for her. I've always pitied Dovewing and her loneliness in ThunderClan, tbh. Once again, I know and this is why I suggested Jayfeather or Alderheart (the medicine cats). I'm well aware that Dovewing was lonely in ThunderClan which is why it's good for her that she is now happy in ShadowClan. There's no way Jayfeather would understand Dovewing's fears. Remember how he felt about Leafpool and Squirrelflight. But I feel Alderheart would be more understanding because of his crush on Velvet, and how gentle he was with her when she came back.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2021 16:08:42 GMT -5
Once again, I know and this is why I suggested Jayfeather or Alderheart (the medicine cats). I'm well aware that Dovewing was lonely in ThunderClan which is why it's good for her that she is now happy in ShadowClan. There's no way Jayfeather would understand Dovewing's fears. Remember how he felt about Leafpool and Squirrelflight. But I feel Alderheart would be more understanding because of his crush on Velvet, and how gentle he was with her when she came back. I guess so. And at the end of the day, this is all just speculation and what really matters is that Dovewing is now happy and feels safe/at peace in ShadowClan. Good for her, honestly.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 22, 2021 18:17:06 GMT -5
There's no way Jayfeather would understand Dovewing's fears. Remember how he felt about Leafpool and Squirrelflight. But I feel Alderheart would be more understanding because of his crush on Velvet, and how gentle he was with her when she came back. I guess so. And at the end of the day, this is all just speculation and what really matters is that Dovewing is now happy and feels safe/at peace in ShadowClan. Good for her, honestly. Yeah, honestly, when people debate and say things like "Dovewing wanted approval from her sister!" How do we really know that's what Dovewing wanted? What if Dovewing wanted to just talk to her about her dream because she was scared? We didn't have her PoV Tigerheart's Shadow, so we're all just guessing what she thinks and judging her by her actions instead of what she truly believes/thinks she does for herself and others. It's why I defend her so much. People always side with her sister so much without trying to understand her PoV because they're mad she's breaking the code, seeing Tigerheart all the time, blah blah, it genuinely feels like they don't try to understand her PoV most of the time. I used to be really defensive because of this. I don't care as much now because debating goes in circles, but grabbing small details from books and then from their own speculations aren't "facts/canon"; to me whatever's said from a characters mouth or beliefs are canon, not just because a person believes and made up a theory about a character if you understand what I mean. So when people say "you're wrong/that's not a fact" I don't listen to those kind of debates cause that's just a personal opinion, doesn't mean it's true in the books unless there's actual evidence.That was a lot to ramble on lmao, sorry. And I'm not saying this to be a jerk or whatever, but it's why I don't really like to debate anymore honestly. I'll enjoy a conversation now and then like how I'm talking to you, but when it comes to debating, it's annoying, people treat their opinions as "true facts" when it's all just a personal opinion in the end. It becomes frustrating. And I know some people are gonna be mad at me and say "This topic isn't about Ivypool". I just don't care.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Oct 22, 2021 18:21:59 GMT -5
She really didn't have anyone to talk to. Not many cats understood her, and sometimes I felt even Ivypool couldn't understand her in a way. She was always angry at Dovewing breaking the warrior code and that's how she always saw her crimes, that she was disloyal to her clan instead of seeing it as seeing someone she loved. She didn't understand how she felt until she had a family of her own with Fernsong. I'm not saying this to bash Ivypool, but Dovewing just didn't have anyone to share her fears, which is likely the reason why she left in the first place. She tried to talk, but no one was there for her. I've always pitied Dovewing and her loneliness in ThunderClan, tbh. Once again, I know and this is why I suggested Jayfeather or Alderheart (the medicine cats). I'm well aware that Dovewing was lonely in ThunderClan which is why it's good for her that she is now happy in ShadowClan. I personally Doubt that’s She truly , Fully Happy with her Decision to move to Shadowclan , Otherwise why would she be So bitter and Spiteful Towards Thunderclan after she was told she couldn’t Waltz into camp Unhindered whenever she felt like it . If she was Fully committed to leaving Thunderclan, don’t think it wouldn’t of surprised and Shocked her near as badly as it did . I honestly don’t think she even really Pensively mauled over the Idea of leaving , until she foolishly went and got pregnant and Forced herself into the situation of either Revealing her whole Ghastly Affair with Tigerheart, potentially being penalized like Squirrelflight and Leafpool or taking the Easier , though Piteous Option of Running away to avoid her Dilemma . All in all I don’t perceive that’s she Gained as much , or achieved Happiness like a lot of people claim she has . As she still to my recollection has Zero Friends in ShC aside from Maybe tawnypelt , and that’s mostly because she’s Tigerhearts mother . I’ve can’t Remember any Interaction she’s Had with anyone in ShC outside of Tigerheart And her Kits that’s been Amiable or Friendly . So really she’s about in the same spot as before . She’s gained a douchebag for a mate , while in exchange lost all her kin , parents , her sister , and any chance of her and Ivypool’s Kits to get to know one another , unless of course they Reform the Code in ASC to allow those who have kin in other Clans the Leeway to be able to cross borders and have visitation rights , which I could see Dovewing being a strong Advocate for making that change happen , since she’s Clearly at least somewhat Regretting losing her Connection to her Family imo . Now to put in my Opinion on this poll. Obviously I think these Idiots should of never gotten back together at all, but since they did . Dovewing should of told someone , I mean she has plenty of kin besides her Sister . I mean could confided in Birchfall, whitewing ,Alderheart,Jayfeather,leafpool, Squirrelflight , cloudtail, brightheart , Bramblestar even , heck even Graystripe since he’s been through similar trials , seriously she didn’t even make an Effort to find a Bettet solution . Far as Tigerhearts Worthless Carcass goes , just Wish he would of remained gone , or at least stayed dead in River of Fire . So I don’t really side with either on this case , they both handled it horribly .
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 23, 2021 6:57:30 GMT -5
I guess so. And at the end of the day, this is all just speculation and what really matters is that Dovewing is now happy and feels safe/at peace in ShadowClan. Good for her, honestly. Yeah, honestly, when people debate and say things like "Dovewing wanted approval from her sister!" How do we really know that's what Dovewing wanted? What if Dovewing wanted to just talk to her about her dream because she was scared? We didn't have her PoV Tigerheart's Shadow, so we're all just guessing what she thinks and judging her by her actions instead of what she truly believes/thinks she does for herself and others. It's why I defend her so much. People always side with her sister so much without trying to understand her PoV because they're mad she's breaking the code, seeing Tigerheart all the time, blah blah, it genuinely feels like they don't try to understand her PoV most of the time. I used to be really defensive because of this. I don't care as much now because debating goes in circles, but grabbing small details from books and then from their own speculations aren't "facts/canon"; to me whatever's said from a characters mouth or beliefs are canon, not just because a person believes and made up a theory about a character if you understand what I mean. So when people say "you're wrong/that's not a fact" I don't listen to those kind of debates cause that's just a personal opinion, doesn't mean it's true in the books unless there's actual evidence.That was a lot to ramble on lmao, sorry. And I'm not saying this to be a jerk or whatever, but it's why I don't really like to debate anymore honestly. I'll enjoy a conversation now and then like how I'm talking to you, but when it comes to debating, it's annoying, people treat their opinions as "true facts" when it's all just a personal opinion in the end. It becomes frustrating. And I know some people are gonna be mad at me and say "This topic isn't about Ivypool". I just don't care. No worries. I can completely understand that you are frustrated about this but most of the time, it is up to each individual fan of the series to form their own opinion on a character or make up their mind/change how they see them. So good on you for no longer wanting to waste energy and time debating someone who will only be able to form a new view on specific characters if they really even want to. Personally, I don't care if people hate Bramblestar, Squirrelflight, Lionblaze or Dovewing. What matters to me is that I'm still able to enjoy these characters with all of their flaws and sometimes questionable decision making.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 23, 2021 7:10:17 GMT -5
Once again, I know and this is why I suggested Jayfeather or Alderheart (the medicine cats). I'm well aware that Dovewing was lonely in ThunderClan which is why it's good for her that she is now happy in ShadowClan. I personally Doubt that’s She truly , Fully Happy with her Decision to move to Shadowclan , Otherwise why would she be So bitter and Spiteful Towards Thunderclan after she was told she couldn’t Waltz into camp Unhindered whenever she felt like it . If she was Fully committed to leaving Thunderclan, don’t think it wouldn’t of surprised and Shocked her near as badly as it did . I honestly don’t think she even really Pensively mauled over the Idea of leaving , until she foolishly went and got pregnant and Forced herself into the situation of either Revealing her whole Ghastly Affair with Tigerheart, potentially being penalized like Squirrelflight and Leafpool or taking the Easier , though Piteous Option of Running away to avoid her Dilemma . All in all I don’t perceive that’s she Gained as much , or achieved Happiness like a lot of people claim she has . As she still to my recollection has Zero Friends in ShC aside from Maybe tawnypelt , and that’s mostly because she’s Tigerhearts mother . I’ve can’t Remember any Interaction she’s Had with anyone in ShC outside of Tigerheart And her Kits that’s been Amiable or Friendly . So really she’s about in the same spot as before . She’s gained a douchebag for a mate , while in exchange lost all her kin , parents , her sister , and any chance of her and Ivypool’s Kits to get to know one another , unless of course they Reform the Code in ASC to allow those who have kin in other Clans the Leeway to be able to cross borders and have visitation rights , which I could see Dovewing being a strong Advocate for making that change happen , since she’s Clearly at least somewhat Regretting losing her Connection to her Family imo . Now to put in my Opinion on this poll. Obviously I think these Idiots should of never gotten back together at all, but since they did . Dovewing should of told someone , I mean she has plenty of kin besides her Sister . I mean could confided in Birchfall, whitewing ,Alderheart,Jayfeather,leafpool, Squirrelflight , cloudtail, brightheart , Bramblestar even , heck even Graystripe since he’s been through similar trials , seriously she didn’t even make an Effort to find a Bettet solution . Far as Tigerhearts Worthless Carcass goes , just Wish he would of remained gone , or at least stayed dead in River of Fire . So I don’t really side with either on this case , they both handled it horribly . While I agree that Tigerheart/star is a waste of valuable space and that him and Dovewing should have never gotten (back) together (same with Bramblestar and Squirrelflight to be honest), I'm not able to agree with you on the stance that she isn't happy in ShadowClan as she is shown to have made up her mind and we also haven't had her PoV ever since the bonus scene of Shattered Sky in AVoS, so all her actions and words since then are perceived from an outside perspective (Tigerheart/star, Tawnypelt and Shadowsight).
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Oct 23, 2021 15:37:28 GMT -5
I personally Doubt that’s She truly , Fully Happy with her Decision to move to Shadowclan , Otherwise why would she be So bitter and Spiteful Towards Thunderclan after she was told she couldn’t Waltz into camp Unhindered whenever she felt like it . If she was Fully committed to leaving Thunderclan, don’t think it wouldn’t of surprised and Shocked her near as badly as it did . I honestly don’t think she even really Pensively mauled over the Idea of leaving , until she foolishly went and got pregnant and Forced herself into the situation of either Revealing her whole Ghastly Affair with Tigerheart, potentially being penalized like Squirrelflight and Leafpool or taking the Easier , though Piteous Option of Running away to avoid her Dilemma . All in all I don’t perceive that’s she Gained as much , or achieved Happiness like a lot of people claim she has . As she still to my recollection has Zero Friends in ShC aside from Maybe tawnypelt , and that’s mostly because she’s Tigerhearts mother . I’ve can’t Remember any Interaction she’s Had with anyone in ShC outside of Tigerheart And her Kits that’s been Amiable or Friendly . So really she’s about in the same spot as before . She’s gained a douchebag for a mate , while in exchange lost all her kin , parents , her sister , and any chance of her and Ivypool’s Kits to get to know one another , unless of course they Reform the Code in ASC to allow those who have kin in other Clans the Leeway to be able to cross borders and have visitation rights , which I could see Dovewing being a strong Advocate for making that change happen , since she’s Clearly at least somewhat Regretting losing her Connection to her Family imo . Now to put in my Opinion on this poll. Obviously I think these Idiots should of never gotten back together at all, but since they did . Dovewing should of told someone , I mean she has plenty of kin besides her Sister . I mean could confided in Birchfall, whitewing ,Alderheart,Jayfeather,leafpool, Squirrelflight , cloudtail, brightheart , Bramblestar even , heck even Graystripe since he’s been through similar trials , seriously she didn’t even make an Effort to find a Bettet solution . Far as Tigerhearts Worthless Carcass goes , just Wish he would of remained gone , or at least stayed dead in River of Fire . So I don’t really side with either on this case , they both handled it horribly . While I agree that Tigerheart/star is a waste of valuable space and that him and Dovewing should have never gotten (back) together (same with Bramblestar and Squirrelflight to be honest), I'm not able to agree with you on the stance that she isn't happy in ShadowClan as she is shown to have made up her mind and we also haven't had her PoV ever since the bonus scene of Shattered Sky in AVoS, so all her actions and words since then are perceived from an outside perspective (Tigerheart/star, Tawnypelt and Shadowsight). partially happy I’d say . She Obviously is still torn about leaving her Kin behind in Thunderclan , since she was very Openly Pleading to be able to Visit them later on after making her Decision , and was Taken aback when Bramblestar said she wouldn’t be able to if she left TC. And she’s clearly very Bitter about it , given her Very Snideful , Slanderous Remark she makes to Squirrelflight in Squirrelflights Hope . And with Major Portions of her Appearances in TBC being her mostly Lounging around Tigerhearts Den and not interacting with any of the other Shadowclan Cats , makes it pretty glaringly obvious imo that she’s not fully accustomed and Content with her decision. If anything she’s merely Come to acceptance with her choices , and yes she has her Kits and Mate , but weighing in what she Lost to achieve her so-called happiness , and considering the fact that she’s such a Compassionate and Sensitive Cat , and clearly Valued her family , even with the rough Patches , she’s lost Far more then She’s Gained in return , and her position Is about the Same/Worse then it was in TC . And even though we haven’t had a PoV since her Bonus scene in Shattered sky , it’s pretty easy to Perceive her thoughts/perspective without them being written down , since she’s a pretty open-book Character , and has the same basic 2 reactions/emotions towards things , someone tries to Comfort/reassure or Console her or help her anyway , she Gets agitated/irritated And exclaims “I’m not some Kit , I don’t need your help blah blah etc” . Someone contradicts/disagrees with her opinion and tried to Reason with her , she usually deems it as Unfair , unreasonable and reacts with Rage/frustration and refuses to listen to others , insisting that she knows what’s she doing/ doesn’t need to be Coddled etc. and it’s fair to say that She’s Frustrated and feels it unfair that She’s Unable to make Blasphemous Choices/break Rules and not have to face consequences( and for the most part doesn’t) for her Reckless choices ,” cause no one understands me , so I shouldn’t have to follow Rules”. can’t Have your Cake and eat it too . My opinion Stands that she’s not perfectly Content with her Choice , and doesn’t feel fully at home in ShC , and still wishes she could have a paw in Both worlds .
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 23, 2021 15:49:25 GMT -5
While I agree that Tigerheart/star is a waste of valuable space and that him and Dovewing should have never gotten (back) together (same with Bramblestar and Squirrelflight to be honest), I'm not able to agree with you on the stance that she isn't happy in ShadowClan as she is shown to have made up her mind and we also haven't had her PoV ever since the bonus scene of Shattered Sky in AVoS, so all her actions and words since then are perceived from an outside perspective (Tigerheart/star, Tawnypelt and Shadowsight). partially happy I’d say . She Obviously is still torn about leaving her Kin behind in Thunderclan , since she was very Openly Pleading to be able to Visit them later on after making her Decision , and was Taken aback when Bramblestar said she wouldn’t be able to if she left TC. And she’s clearly very Bitter about it , given her Very Snideful , Slanderous Remark she makes to Squirrelflight in Squirrelflights Hope . And with Major Portions of her Appearances in TBC being her mostly Lounging around Tigerhearts Den and not interacting with any of the other Shadowclan Cats , makes it pretty glaringly obvious imo that she’s not fully accustomed and Content with her decision. If anything she’s merely Come to acceptance with her choices , and yes she has her Kits and Mate , but weighing in what she Lost to achieve her so-called happiness , and considering the fact that she’s such a Compassionate and Sensitive Cat , and clearly Valued her family , even with the rough Patches , she’s lost Far more then She’s Gained in return , and her position Is about the Same/Worse then it was in TC . And even though we haven’t had a PoV since her Bonus scene in Shattered sky , it’s pretty easy to Perceive her thoughts/perspective without them being written down , since she’s a pretty open-book Character , and has the same basic 2 reactions/emotions towards things , someone tries to Comfort/reassure or Console her or help her anyway , she Gets agitated/irritated And exclaims “I’m not some Kit , I don’t need your help blah blah etc” . Someone contradicts/disagrees with her opinion and tried to Reason with her , she usually deems it as Unfair , unreasonable and reacts with Rage/frustration and refuses to listen to others , insisting that she knows what’s she doing/ doesn’t need to be Coddled etc. and it’s fair to say that She’s Frustrated and feels it unfair that She’s Unable to make Blasphemous Choices/break Rules and not have to face consequences( and for the most part doesn’t) for her Reckless choices ,” cause no one understands me , so I shouldn’t have to follow Rules”. can’t Have your Cake and eat it too . My opinion Stands that she’s not perfectly Content with her Choice , and doesn’t feel fully at home in ShC , and still wishes she could have a paw in Both worlds . Then I guess we both have different stances on the topic of Dovewing's level of happiness and will have to agree to disagree on this matter.
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Post by Chicken on Oct 24, 2021 14:12:19 GMT -5
I think they were both wrong, but for the right reasons. Tigerheart left because he thought it would be the best thing for his clan, because he misinterpreted a sign, he was trying to put his clan first. Dovewing left because she honestly thought her kits would be in danger, and with how hostile the clans claim to be about forbidden relationships, can you blame her? Ideally, they both should have ended it, or moved clans long ago, but this isn't an ideal world. I don't think either are in the right or the wrong.
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Post by thewinterblaze on Oct 24, 2021 18:42:03 GMT -5
I think they were both wrong, but for the right reasons. Tigerheart left because he thought it would be the best thing for his clan, because he misinterpreted a sign, he was trying to put his clan first. Dovewing left because she honestly thought her kits would be in danger, and with how hostile the clans claim to be about forbidden relationships, can you blame her? Ideally, they both should have ended it, or moved clans long ago, but this isn't an ideal world. I don't think either are in the right or the wrong. This
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