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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Sept 16, 2021 10:48:52 GMT -5
In the broken code arc so far, squirrelflight has to choose between the safety of her mate or choose the safety of the clans (as well as the possible return of starclan). Killing bramblestar might possibly not work, yet the clans can't just sit around while ashfur keeps starclan from them. It is also a possibility that bramblestar will never return to his body again, meaning that keeping him alive might be useless.
I'm curious to hear what you would do in this situation if you were squirrelflight.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 16, 2021 14:18:47 GMT -5
squirrelflight was the most selfish in her life when she chose her mate over the clans like that. she kept whining about "nooo dont kill my mate, what about MY feelings?" even though everyone kept getting hurt and stressed over her indecision. she never gives anyone other options or alternatives, either they cater her feelings or they dont do anything at all..like wtf what kind of selfish crap is this? she is the worst in TBC by far for always being "me me me what about MY feelings? who cares if you people lost kin because of the imposter, *i* cant lose MY mate! WAAH!"
even HAWKWING knows to put the clan first above others. why can't squirrelflight ever know this fact? she should have accepted the possibility of losing bramblestar for the GOOD OF ALL THE CLANS and come up with many alternate solutions, even ones that involve killing bramblestar's body. but NO. she doesn't do this. instead, she cries about how big a victim she is when she's NOT the only one suffering in the arc.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Sept 16, 2021 14:25:30 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ Yeah, I can see it as selfish. But I do understand where she's coming from, accepting the death of her mate must be a hard decision. I mean, If bramblestar was still alive would he ever forgive her for letting the cats kill him? But then again, she is making a selfish decision by choosing to keep his body alive and wasting Shadowclan herbs. It kinda makes me wonder what bramblestar would do in this situation. But thanks for your input, I love to hear others idea's.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 16, 2021 14:32:12 GMT -5
squirrelflight was the most selfish in her life when she chose her mate over the clans like that. she kept whining about "nooo dont kill my mate, what about MY feelings?" even though everyone kept getting hurt and stressed over her indecision. she never gives anyone other options or alternatives, either they cater her feelings or they dont do anything at all..like wtf what kind of selfish crap is this? she is the worst in TBC by far for always being "me me me what about MY feelings? who cares if you people lost kin because of the imposter, *i* cant lose MY mate! WAAH!" even HAWKWING knows to put the clan first above others. why can't squirrelflight ever know this fact? she should have accepted the possibility of losing bramblestar for the GOOD OF ALL THE CLANS and come up with many alternate solutions, even ones that involve killing bramblestar's body. but NO. she doesn't do this. instead, she cries about how big a victim she is when she's NOT the only one suffering in the arc. I wouldn't say most of her life. When she lied about the three, it was to protect Leafpool, and she's genuinely concerned about Bramblestar's feelings as well as protecting her clan. Squirrelflight just has a really weird way of "trying to do the right thing". I suppose her actions always takes a risk, which ends up hurting someone else all the time. I don't like her that much, but she hasn't "always" been selfish. I would say it was probably a little bit selfish to lie to Bramble about the three, since we have no evidence saying she wanted to protect him, but she did that for her sister, not herself. I don't even care about Squirrelflight. She's selfish often, yes, but not *all the time*. But, most of her actions when it comes to "doing the right thing" always ended up hurting or betraying someone. She really hurt Hollyleaf, she chose the Sisters over her Clan, hurt Bramblestar multiple times too. Even if she didn't mean to, she still hurt a lot of cats without thinking ahead of what she's doing. And yes, before someone says so, that I'm aware Hollyleaf made her own choices in the end and chose to feel the way she felt, but, Squirrelflight was still a big part of her mental illness, and Bramblestar and the rest of the clans were pretty hurt by her choices too. I feel like the writers handle her in a really weird way tbh. But that's just me. I understand that she genuinely believes it's the right thing to do, but a lot of her choices were very poor.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 16, 2021 14:54:49 GMT -5
squirrelflight was the most selfish in her life when she chose her mate over the clans like that. she kept whining about "nooo dont kill my mate, what about MY feelings?" even though everyone kept getting hurt and stressed over her indecision. she never gives anyone other options or alternatives, either they cater her feelings or they dont do anything at all..like wtf what kind of selfish crap is this? she is the worst in TBC by far for always being "me me me what about MY feelings? who cares if you people lost kin because of the imposter, *i* cant lose MY mate! WAAH!" even HAWKWING knows to put the clan first above others. why can't squirrelflight ever know this fact? she should have accepted the possibility of losing bramblestar for the GOOD OF ALL THE CLANS and come up with many alternate solutions, even ones that involve killing bramblestar's body. but NO. she doesn't do this. instead, she cries about how big a victim she is when she's NOT the only one suffering in the arc. I wouldn't say most of her life. When she lied about the three, it was to protect Leafpool, and she's genuinely concerned about Bramblestar's feelings as well as protecting her clan. Squirrelflight just has a really weird way of "trying to do the right thing". I suppose her actions always takes a risk, which ends up hurting someone else all the time. I don't like her that much, but she hasn't "always" been selfish. I would say it was probably a little bit selfish to lie to Bramble about the three, since we have no evidence saying she wanted to protect him, but she did that for her sister, not herself. I don't even care about Squirrelflight. She's selfish often, yes, but not *all the time*. But, most of her actions when it comes to "doing the right thing" always ended up hurting or betraying someone. She really hurt Hollyleaf, she chose the Sisters over her Clan, hurt Bramblestar multiple times too. Even if she didn't mean to, she still hurt a lot of cats without thinking ahead of what she's doing. And yes, before someone says so, that I'm aware Hollyleaf made her own choices in the end and chose to feel the way she felt, but, Squirrelflight was still a big part of her mental illness, and Bramblestar and the rest of the clans were pretty hurt by her choices too. I feel like the writers handle her in a really weird way tbh. But that's just me. I understand that she genuinely believes it's the right thing to do, but a lot of her choices were very poor. hm, i do tend to exaggerate when it comes to squirrelflight becaue of my open bias against her, so i apologize for that. however, i feel like tons of fiction do that now a days, when the heroes feel like they can do whatever they want without consequence because "we're the good guys" even when, from another perspective, their actions are clearly immoral and/or selfish and would be seen as bad guys by other characters. this is what i feel like they're been doing with squirrelflight.
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Post by cable on Sept 16, 2021 20:58:47 GMT -5
i think squirrel is a good character. from a writing perspective, her flaws come from a reasonable place- she went through a lot of trauma at a young age, and while she chose to go on that journey, she was young, and i doubt she actually realized what such a thing would entail. making friends who would be torn away from her by clan traditions, witnessing feathertails death and being helpless to stop it, being lied to and told she was infertile before her sister turned to her for help with a lie of massive proportions, attempting to save moonlight and her kits just to lose her sister in the process... to me, it seems that shes always desperate to have the power to help others, but things keep going wrong for her, whether because of her lack for foresight or circumstances outside her control.
that being said, i understand why she made the decision she did. this would be an extension of that flaw. she wants to save everybody, and cant look at it from a pragmatic point of view. killing bramblestar is technically the safer option. even if it doesnt work, it denies ashfur that body, and arguably gives bramblestar some of his dignity back. but squirrel doesnt want the pragmatic angle, because from her perspective, thats one more person she cares about that she wasnt able to save.
i think its very hard to answer the above question because people want to look at it as a “killing bramblestar, this character” question, as opposed to the idea of genuinely having to guarantee the death of somebody you love when there might he hope for them. i genuinely dont think i could do that.
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Post by kells on Sept 16, 2021 22:21:53 GMT -5
Squirrelflight makes complete sense for not wanting to kill her mate??? It's selfish, yes, but just because it's for the greater good doesn't mean she should be okay with killing her lover
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 16, 2021 22:29:34 GMT -5
Squirrelflight makes complete sense for not wanting to kill her mate??? It's selfish, yes, but just because it's for the greater good doesn't mean she should be okay with killing her lover wanda in infinity war finally came to terms with sacrificing her love for the greater good, so why can't squirrelflight? i already know some will aruge that "not all characters will react the same" but still...the greater good is the greater good.
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Lesbian
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Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 16, 2021 23:02:08 GMT -5
Squirrelflight makes complete sense for not wanting to kill her mate??? It's selfish, yes, but just because it's for the greater good doesn't mean she should be okay with killing her lover wanda in infinity war finally came to terms with sacrificing her love for the greater good, so why can't squirrelflight? i already know some will aruge that "not all characters will react the same" but still...the greater good is the greater good. Wanda enslaved an entire town for a long time and got pats on the back instead of being made to actually face consequences. There was no real greater good. She’s not really equal to Squirrelflight whose mate’s life is still on the line. Edit: Furthermore, the stakes were amazingly higher in Infinity War than in Warriors. Squirrelflight’s decision doesn’t spell certain doom for trillions of life on earth. They just won’t see StarClan again, and while that sucks, it’s StarClan’s fault in the first place for the entire mess.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 16, 2021 23:10:45 GMT -5
wanda in infinity war finally came to terms with sacrificing her love for the greater good, so why can't squirrelflight? i already know some will aruge that "not all characters will react the same" but still...the greater good is the greater good. Wanda enslaved an entire town for a long time and got pats on the back instead of being made to actually face consequences. There was no real greater good. She’s not really equal to Squirrelflight whose mate’s life is still on the line. Edit: Furthermore, the stakes were amazingly higher in Infinity War than in Warriors. Squirrelflight’s decision doesn’t spell certain doom for trillions of life on earth. They just won’t see StarClan again, and while that sucks, it’s StarClan’s fault in the first place for the entire mess. not really what i was trying to say (im bad at making good comparisons tbh. it made more sense in my mind). im more focused on the selfishness of squirrelflight in that situation in TBC. im just sick of people glorifying squirrelflight's selfishness. her wants and needs arent the only thing that matters in the story, or at least they shouldnt be so idk why all of TBC is treating it as if it is...it's insanity to me.
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Lesbian
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Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 16, 2021 23:12:17 GMT -5
Wanda enslaved an entire town for a long time and got pats on the back instead of being made to actually face consequences. There was no real greater good. She’s not really equal to Squirrelflight whose mate’s life is still on the line. Edit: Furthermore, the stakes were amazingly higher in Infinity War than in Warriors. Squirrelflight’s decision doesn’t spell certain doom for trillions of life on earth. They just won’t see StarClan again, and while that sucks, it’s StarClan’s fault in the first place for the entire mess. not really what i was trying to say (im bad at making good comparisons tbh. it made more sense in my mind). im more focused on the selfishness of squirrelflight in that situation in TBC. im just sick of people glorifying squirrelflight's selfishness. her wants and needs arent the only thing that matters in the story, or at least they shouldnt be so idk why all of TBC is treating it as if it is...it's insanity to me. Okay but bringing up a character from a vastly different franchise doesn’t really carry your point, especially when said character is x5 worse and more selfish than Squirrelflight could ever dream of.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 16, 2021 23:13:29 GMT -5
not really what i was trying to say (im bad at making good comparisons tbh. it made more sense in my mind). im more focused on the selfishness of squirrelflight in that situation in TBC. im just sick of people glorifying squirrelflight's selfishness. her wants and needs arent the only thing that matters in the story, or at least they shouldnt be so idk why all of TBC is treating it as if it is...it's insanity to me. Okay but bringing up a character from a vastly different franchise doesn’t really carry your point, especially when said character is x5 worse and more selfish than Squirrelflight could ever dream of. nah agree to disagree because squirrelflight is insanely selfish and i wont move my stance on that.
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Lesbian
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Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 16, 2021 23:17:29 GMT -5
Okay but bringing up a character from a vastly different franchise doesn’t really carry your point, especially when said character is x5 worse and more selfish than Squirrelflight could ever dream of. nah agree to disagree because squirrelflight is insanely selfish and i wont move my stance on that. And that’s fine. Squirrelflight IS selfish. And honestly? Good for her.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 16, 2021 23:19:01 GMT -5
nah agree to disagree because squirrelflight is insanely selfish and i wont move my stance on that. And that’s fine. Squirrelflight IS selfish. And honestly? Good for her. i dont wanna go back and forth and turn this into an argument, but i will just say one more time: i dont like it when people glorify selfishness. it's not a good look. thats all. thanks for the discussion.
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Lesbian
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sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 16, 2021 23:22:19 GMT -5
And that’s fine. Squirrelflight IS selfish. And honestly? Good for her. i dont wanna go back and forth and turn this into an argument, but i will just say one more time: i dont like it when people glorify selfishness. it's not a good look. thats all. thanks for the discussion. And that’s fine if you don’t like it. But Wanda and Squirrelflight’s selfishness is why I like their characters, so, yeah. Don’t really care if if it’s not a good look lmao. Girlboss.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 16, 2021 23:25:36 GMT -5
I would've let my mate die if I were her, however hard it would've been, but I understand why she was so hesitant.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 16, 2021 23:48:06 GMT -5
to me, it seems that shes always desperate to have the power to help others, but things keep going wrong for her, whether because of her lack for foresight or circumstances outside her control. that being said, i understand why she made the decision she did. this would be an extension of that flaw. she wants to save everybody, and cant look at it from a pragmatic point of view. Yeah, most of Squirrelflight's actions are rooted in trying to help other cats, the exact opposite of selfishness, but the problem is that once she makes up her mind about something, it usually becomes difficult to change it, even if it ends up causing trouble for everyone else. And even in this specific instance, she's still thinking of her leader and mate, but the risk is too great. There is, after all, such a thing as being too selfless and loyal, and selfishness and selflessness can sometimes overlap, which one can argue is the case here. It's very much a "needs of the many vs. the needs of the few" situation.
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Post by Rainsplash on Sept 17, 2021 5:08:59 GMT -5
Annoying, very annoying. I get it's going to be hard to be the one to decide whether if you're going to kill your family but she was so frustrating. Every time the Clans would actually try to do something she'd be like "Noooo what if Bramblestar comes to harm because of that????" and just, everyone says "hmmm... yeah we should totally keep Bramblestar!" Squirrelflight doesn't suggest an alternative and just disagrees against almost everything.
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Aroace
#ffa100
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 17, 2021 5:36:20 GMT -5
It's understandable for Squirrelflight in wanting to to not loose the true Bramblestar because she loves him and wishes him to be back at her side. That being said, it possibly endangers the future of all Clans so in that regard this is not the right decision to make.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 17, 2021 7:01:13 GMT -5
I don't know, man. Killing Bramblestar might be the right thing for everybody, but being forced to murder your loved one is asking too much of Squirrelflight. If I had to kill the person I was closest to in order to save the world, I may not have the courage and selflessness to do it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 9:27:14 GMT -5
Her actions were selfish. This is why she shouldn't be deputy, or leader, because when you're in those positions of authority, your CLAN should come first. They are your responsibility, and Squirrelflight was selfish for putting her needs above them in a continuously frustrating situation. How many more cats would have to suffer at the claws of a lunatic just so Squirrelflight could cling to the dead corpse of her husband? Not to mention she was even willing to commit treason at one point too. She literally wasted no time in running off after the meeting to go and free Brashstar, despite EVERYTHING he's done up to that point. The fact that two cats, generations younger than her, had to physically stop her and talk her down from it just shows how immature, irresponsible and selfish Squirrelflight was. Her thinking with her emotions to the point that she can't make compliant judgments is not qualities of someone who should be in a position of authority. Cats were suffering and wanted justice, and she was willing to deny them that just for the sake of her own needs and wants. Her trying to free Brashstar is the equivalent of a foolish army lieutenant attempting to release an unhinged and murderous war criminal just because they're married.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Sept 17, 2021 9:36:21 GMT -5
Exactly what others have said. If i were Squirrelflight, i wouldn't have the courage to kill- yes, you heard it right- take the life of my closest loved one to save the Clans. While it may be selfish, she's being asked too much. That probably would traumatize her for life. She would also bear too much guilt inside her. Of course she would try to pursue more ways to do it instead of having to kill her mate.
Also, of course the other Clans would keep asking her to kill him. It's so easy for some cats to say that since they aren't close to him.
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Post by Katanaheart on Sept 17, 2021 9:45:39 GMT -5
I wonder if Ashfur had succeeded in killing Sparkpelt if her tune would have changed and she’d be more willing to see that killing Bramblestar for the lives of the many, was the better option.
Clan life has always valued the Clan over singular lives and Squirrelflight can’t just decide that the other families who lost kin are worth less than her mate.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 17, 2021 10:12:14 GMT -5
Lionblaze was sure ready to kill his father(‘s body). I mean Bramble and Lion aren’t ever written as very close to each other in the books though.
I don’t think anybody knew what would happen, like if you kill “Bramblestar” and the imposter gets forced out then real Bramblestar would return to his body? Or was Bramblestar already long dead at that moment? If she killed “Bramblestar”, I don’t think it would be killing the real Bramblestar, and then she would have to figure out how to free his spirit form from the Dark Forest so he could return.
To be honest, knowing what we know now, I think Squirrelflight made the right choice even if it was based on selfishness. If they kill “Bramblestar”, couldn’t Ashfur just return to his body after a while? Unless they completely destroyed Bramblestar’s body which I don’t that was part of their plan. Also, with Ashfur in Bramblestar’s body, they know where Ashfur is and would be able to figure out what he did to StarClan easier, which was one of Shadowsight’s reasons to be on the “save Bramblestar” side.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 17, 2021 11:14:38 GMT -5
Squirrelflight cannot keep holding back after time and time of failure and countless deaths and suffering of everyone else. At some point, as the deputy and temporary leader of your clan, you need to start to put your entire clan into consideration as well as innocent cats who suffer from your refusal to stop the body of your mate. Hell, she doesn’t even have to be the one to kill him. Let another leader do it, but sooner or later you have to not stop it.
This affects more than just her and her love life. It’s tragic and painful, but she needs to accept that it’s time to let him go if it means preventing the deaths of countless others.
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