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Post by Chicken on Sept 14, 2021 11:43:07 GMT -5
Out of all the minor "villains"/cats who temporarily went down the dark path, before redeeming themselves, who do you find the least redeemable? I know Hollyleaf isn't exactly considered a temporarily villain but she tried to kill a medicine cat, so I'm putting her on here.
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Sept 14, 2021 11:47:23 GMT -5
Brokenstar. Just Brokenstar.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 14, 2021 11:48:39 GMT -5
Brokenstar. Just Brokenstar. Agreed, but he's a major villain who wasn't actually redeemed
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 14, 2021 12:12:10 GMT -5
Leopardstar or Needletail (she might have been redeemable, but given she still won't take any accountability, no)
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 14, 2021 13:04:43 GMT -5
Onestar! One of his "wrongdoings" found and killed him. Thanks Darktail!
(Clear Sky is also still horrible despite his "redemption".)
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 14, 2021 13:31:02 GMT -5
i voted clear sky. his "redemption" was rushed and so stupid. it didn't feel genuine or earned, so all the things he did? makes HIM the least redeemable in my eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2021 13:39:27 GMT -5
I think the least redeemable non-villain character to me probably has to be bramblestar. the way he treats squirrelflight is very hard to read, and he was literally willing to let one of the sisters die just to put squirrelflight in her place.
it’s especially bad because, unlike the characters on this list, it’s not even fun to read about him. there’s not much the erins could do at this point to redeem him.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 14, 2021 14:15:54 GMT -5
Anyways...I'm thinking Onestar. Leaving a clan to die out from sickness and intentionally keeping them from their saving grace just because you don't want to pay child support is just...messed up. Even more so because he still blamed ShadowClan for everything he pretty much caused. Leaving kits, queens and elders to die is just....ugh.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 14, 2021 16:25:45 GMT -5
On this list, Blackstar... he was Brokenstar’s biggest ally, was loyal to Tigerstar, and let Sol get a foot hold to throw the clans into chaos. Not to mention he slaughtered Stonefur like he was a dying animal and he killed Rosetail who I think was an elder.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Sept 14, 2021 16:56:39 GMT -5
Breezepelt. He fought against his Clan and all the Clans in the Great Battle. At least the other Dark Forest trainees (that survived, at least) fought for the Clans once they realized what was really going on. But Breezepelt fought against the Clans and didn't seem to care about anything aside from his own petty revenge.
I can understand why a lot of people voted Onestar, too, and I definitely dislike him and the way he turned (tbh it felt very sudden and didn't make much sense with his character - a novella or something about his transition from regular warrior to being thrust into leadership would be interesting to get a better understanding of his thinking). But from what we do know about why he changed, it's almost understandable. Yes, he did turn his back on a longtime friend, but to be fair, he had to put his own Clan first and show them that he would be a strong leader for his Clan. He wanted to stop his Clanmates and the other Clans from seeing WindClan as weak and just ThunderClan's pawn. So while I don't agree with his behavior and find it reprehensible, I think that does slightly redeem him.
I would've argued that Leopardstar's behavior was unredeemable until we got her POV in her SE - I think, if we're being honest, it's a lot easier to find these characters redeemable when we have their POV of the situations in which they made their terrible choices.
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Post by kells on Sept 14, 2021 17:15:03 GMT -5
Speaking in terms of person rather than character, I'd say Clear Sky
He is an ableist, slimy, cowardly and overall really, really dumb person. He humiliated his followers and brother, (metaphorically) spat on the face of the other brother who saved him and his group (and suffered the rest of his life with asthma), killed and starved his own kind in a camp that had so much food it started rotting. He left his followers to die, degraded the "usefulness" of his group and even considered trying to kill the kits he orphaned. The amount of emotional and physical abuse this guy put on others always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and his PTSD was no excuse for his behavior
It does not help that the books just mopped over this with the most terrible redemption arc I've ever seen. The second for me would be Brokenstar and Breezepelt, I don't think it can get slimier than these guys
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Post by Chicken on Sept 14, 2021 17:45:00 GMT -5
Speaking in terms of person rather than character, I'd say Clear Sky He is an ableist, slimy, cowardly and overall really, really dumb person. He humiliated his followers and brother, (metaphorically) spat on the face of the other brother who saved him and his group (and suffered the rest of his life with asthma), killed and starved his own kind in a camp that had so much food it started rotting. He left his followers to die, degraded the "usefulness" of his group and even considered trying to kill the kits he orphaned. The amount of emotional and physical abuse this guy put on others always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and his PTSD was no excuse for his behavior It does not help that the books just mopped over this with the most terrible redemption arc I've ever seen. The second for me would be Brokenstar and Breezepelt, I don't think it can get slimier than these guys Oh jeez! Clear Sky is way worse than I remember
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Sept 14, 2021 17:49:10 GMT -5
Onestar, no question. (And I'm surprised that not more of the Bramble Bad gang is on this thread yet)
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Post by Chicken on Sept 14, 2021 17:50:52 GMT -5
I think the least redeemable non-villain character to me probably has to be bramblestar. the way he treats squirrelflight is very hard to read, and he was literally willing to let one of the sisters die just to put squirrelflight in her place. it’s especially bad because, unlike the characters on this list, it’s not even fun to read about him. there’s not much the erins could do at this point to redeem him. I think it was more than him just trying to "put Squirrelflight in her place." I mean, it's not like they just dealt with rogues who nearly wiped out a whole clan and severely hurt another to the point where they closed their borders for a little while, or like they had just held hostage his mate/deputy and the leader of another clan or anything.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 14, 2021 18:24:29 GMT -5
I think the least redeemable non-villain character to me probably has to be bramblestar. the way he treats squirrelflight is very hard to read, and he was literally willing to let one of the sisters die just to put squirrelflight in her place. it’s especially bad because, unlike the characters on this list, it’s not even fun to read about him. there’s not much the erins could do at this point to redeem him. I think it was more than him just trying to "put Squirrelflight in her place." I mean, it's not like they just dealt with rogues who nearly wiped out a whole clan and severely crippled another to the point where they closed their borders for a little while, or like they had just held hostage his mate/deputy and the leader of another clan or anything. Also, Bramblestar really had no reason to help the Sisters tbh, Squirrelflight went behind his back yet again, and put their clan in danger because of her selfishness...Bramblestar shouldn't have to struggle between protecting his clan and having to put up with his own deputy's disobedience. She really should have been demoted after that stunt imo.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 14, 2021 19:31:19 GMT -5
I think the least redeemable non-villain character to me probably has to be bramblestar. the way he treats squirrelflight is very hard to read, and he was literally willing to let one of the sisters die just to put squirrelflight in her place. it’s especially bad because, unlike the characters on this list, it’s not even fun to read about him. there’s not much the erins could do at this point to redeem him. Putting Squirrelflight in her place had nothing to do with it. When Bramblestar gives his reasoning, it's entirely driven by his fear of defying Starclan's will and of offending Tigerstar. He wasn't just thinking that this will really make Squirrelflight suffer. I think it's cowardly of him to be so cowed by Tigerstar, but let's not act like this was some kind of power move over Squirrelflight.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 14, 2021 20:16:49 GMT -5
I think the least redeemable non-villain character to me probably has to be bramblestar. the way he treats squirrelflight is very hard to read, and he was literally willing to let one of the sisters die just to put squirrelflight in her place. it’s especially bad because, unlike the characters on this list, it’s not even fun to read about him. there’s not much the erins could do at this point to redeem him. Putting Squirrelflight in her place had nothing to do with it. When Bramblestar gives his reasoning, it's entirely driven by his fear of defying Starclan's will and of offending Tigerstar. He wasn't just thinking that this will really make Squirrelflight suffer. I think it's cowardly of him to be so cowed by Tigerstar, but let's not act like this was some kind of power move over Squirrelflight. I agree with this. The Sisters were strangers to the clans, so for all they knew, they're like The Kin, and they were recently attacked and many of their Clanmates have been killed by them. Squirrelflight decided to sneak off without Bramblestar's permission and was eventually kidnaped along with Leafstar. To the clans, the sisters pose a threat -- not to mention they also permanently damaged a ShadowClan warrior as well, pissing off Tigerstar. I understand that the sisters weren't trying to cause drama and didn't want to start a war, though. But the clans aren't too trusting when it comes to strangers, so it's really only natural that Bramblestar wouldn't want to heal Sunrise. I don't like how Bramblestar handled it, but I understand that he didn't want to upset his clan by saving an enemy that Squirrelflight took in, when she knew that the clans didn't even like them in the first place. Bramblestar's actions really don't have anything to do with Squirrelflight. But I won't push this any farther by making this a SquirrelBramble war, but I definitely agree with you and understand why Bramblestar doesn't want to heal Sunrise. It's not because he wants to "control" Squirrelflight, but because he didn't want to upset his ancestors, and he wanted to protect his clan. They were an enemy according to the clans. It was a risk to heal Sunrise. Nobody liked the Sisters. To be honest, I feel like a lot of people forget that Bramblestar actually did try to keep the peace for a long time between Squirrelflight and the Sisters. He didn't want war between them or the clans. He was just a clan leader doing his job, but was put under a lot of pressure because of Squirrelflight.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2021 21:43:35 GMT -5
I think the least redeemable non-villain character to me probably has to be bramblestar. the way he treats squirrelflight is very hard to read, and he was literally willing to let one of the sisters die just to put squirrelflight in her place. it’s especially bad because, unlike the characters on this list, it’s not even fun to read about him. there’s not much the erins could do at this point to redeem him. I think it was more than him just trying to "put Squirrelflight in her place." I mean, it's not like they just dealt with rogues who nearly wiped out a whole clan and severely crippled another to the point where they closed their borders for a little while, or like they had just held hostage his mate/deputy and the leader of another clan or anything. tbf, I feel like any leader who outright refuses to listen to their deputy (especially when said deputy is arguing against letting an innocent cat die) is not a good sign for a leader? also, an important point in a romantic relationship is treating your partner as an equal and listening to their ideas. in the book it feels like bramblestar is immediately assuming the worst of squirrelflight and dismissing her ideas also, I don’t think this was your intention but I’d highly appreciate it if you found an alternative for the word “cr*ppled”, it’s a version of a word that has been used against me and people like me multiple times and it doesn’t really have a place in a conversation about funny cats living in the woods (I know that being hurtful wasn’t your intent, I just felt like I should let you know)
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 14, 2021 21:49:26 GMT -5
I think it was more than him just trying to "put Squirrelflight in her place." I mean, it's not like they just dealt with rogues who nearly wiped out a whole clan and severely crippled another to the point where they closed their borders for a little while, or like they had just held hostage his mate/deputy and the leader of another clan or anything. tbf, I feel like any leader who outright refuses to listen to their deputy (especially when said deputy is arguing against letting an innocent cat die) is not a good sign for a leader? also, an important point in a romantic relationship is treating your partner as an equal and listening to their ideas. in the book it feels like bramblestar is immediately assuming the worst of squirrelflight and dismissing her ideas squirrelflight is the one refusing to listen TO HER LEADER. not her mate. her LEADER. she's the one going around thinking she's rigth and no one else is allowed to say otherwise. squirrelflight went around pushing her solution as the ONLY solution, damn everyone else who wants to solve it another way. that's the point. squirrelflight was the one putting pressure on bramblestar, not the other way around. can we all agree to disagree at this point because i dont like seeing bramblestar constantly being demonized out of proportion like this. i have nothing else to add.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 14, 2021 21:54:29 GMT -5
I think it was more than him just trying to "put Squirrelflight in her place." I mean, it's not like they just dealt with rogues who nearly wiped out a whole clan and severely crippled another to the point where they closed their borders for a little while, or like they had just held hostage his mate/deputy and the leader of another clan or anything. tbf, I feel like any leader who outright refuses to listen to their deputy (especially when said deputy is arguing against letting an innocent cat die) is not a good sign for a leader? also, an important point in a romantic relationship is treating your partner as an equal and listening to their ideas. in the book it feels like bramblestar is immediately assuming the worst of squirrelflight and dismissing her ideas also, I don’t think this was your intention but I’d highly appreciate it if you found an alternative for the word “cr*ppled”, it’s a version of a word that has been used against me and people like me multiple times and it doesn’t really have a place in a conversation about funny cats living in the woods (I know that being hurtful wasn’t your intent, I just felt like I should let you know) I apologize for my poor word choice, I edited it. And yeah, Bramblestar should have let them heal Sunrise, but in his mind, she wasn't innocent, and he had every right to believe that. Also, when it comes to being mates, yeah, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight are equals, but when it comes to the clan, they're not. He is the leader, he is above her in rank, which means, they're not equal in this instance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2021 21:55:13 GMT -5
tbf, I feel like any leader who outright refuses to listen to their deputy (especially when said deputy is arguing against letting an innocent cat die) is not a good sign for a leader? also, an important point in a romantic relationship is treating your partner as an equal and listening to their ideas. in the book it feels like bramblestar is immediately assuming the worst of squirrelflight and dismissing her ideas squirrelflight is the one refusing to listen TO HER LEADER. not her mate. her LEADER. she's the one going around thinking she's rigth and no one else is allowed to say otherwise. squirrelflight went around pushing her solution as the ONLY solution, damn everyone else who wants to solve it another way. that's the point. squirrelflight was the one putting pressure on bramblestar, not the other way around. can we all agree to disagree at this point because i dont like seeing bramblestar constantly being demonized out of proportion like this. i have nothing else to add. not looking for an argument, and happy to agree to disagree here! I might make my own separate thread/post talking about the balance of leadership and a romantic relationship and why it’s probably not a good idea to have a leader/deputy duo be mates, I think it could be a fun topic of discussion for a later time!
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 15, 2021 8:29:30 GMT -5
Moonlight. She was so stubborn in the last moments of her life, even endangering her kits' lives for the sake of stubbornness and pride. That was gross to read about.
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Post by kells on Sept 15, 2021 13:59:20 GMT -5
Moonlight. She was so stubborn in the last moments of her life, even endangering her kits' lives for the sake of stubbornness and pride. That was gross to read about. Wasn't she really close to having them? It's not really safe for a queen to be wandering around out in the open in an unestablished territory to have kits, it makes 100% sense they wouldn't want to leave their own territory just because someone else wanted it
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Sept 15, 2021 16:07:11 GMT -5
Needletail kept blaming other cats even after she died, so she's one of the least redeemable in my eyes.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 16, 2021 6:36:20 GMT -5
Moonlight. She was so stubborn in the last moments of her life, even endangering her kits' lives for the sake of stubbornness and pride. That was gross to read about. Wasn't she really close to having them? It's not really safe for a queen to be wandering around out in the open in an unestablished territory to have kits, it makes 100% sense they wouldn't want to leave their own territory just because someone else wanted it Yes, but Moonlight herself didn't even worry about her own kits or think she was endangering them. All she said was "I'm not going anywhere" and "They (the Clan cats) shouldn't have come here". If it's anything we've learned about Moonlight in that book is that she's stubborn, willful, and proud, caring more about the Sisters' rights and less about her kits' safety. Time and time again she is seen not backing down, endangering her unborn kits. But I do agree with you in that there wasn't much she could do while giving birth, so I'll restate my opinion: Moonlight was irredeemable in my eyes because she was so obstinate and proud to the point of potentially risking her campmates' and kits' lives. Maybe not while outright giving birth, but definitely when she was pregnant. She could have easily moved a little farther away instead of sitting stubbornly in the middle of a growing war with huge groups of hostile cats.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 16, 2021 8:14:18 GMT -5
Wasn't she really close to having them? It's not really safe for a queen to be wandering around out in the open in an unestablished territory to have kits, it makes 100% sense they wouldn't want to leave their own territory just because someone else wanted it Yes, but Moonlight herself didn't even worry about her own kits or think she was endangering them. All she said was "I'm not going anywhere" and "They (the Clan cats) shouldn't have come here". If it's anything we've learned about Moonlight in that book is that she's stubborn, willful, and proud, caring more about the Sisters' rights and less about her kits' safety. Time and time again she is seen not backing down, endangering her unborn kits. But I do agree with you in that there wasn't much she could do while giving birth, so I'll restate my opinion: Moonlight was irredeemable in my eyes because she was so obstinate and proud to the point of potentially risking her campmates' and kits' lives. Maybe not while outright giving birth, but definitely when she was pregnant. She could have easily moved a little farther away instead of sitting stubbornly in the middle of a growing war with huge groups of hostile cats. I actually just finished reading the scene. Moonlight only cared about her Sisters' pride at the time. She said she and the Sisters won't be bullied. Squirrelflight and Leafstar both warned her that the clans are threatening to attack her. She also disrespected Tree more than once by calling him "Earth" and mocked him for living clan life. I still think it was cruel of Tigerstar to refuse to wait for a mother to give birth to her kittens, but at this point leaving was for the best even if she was about to give birth. But she still stayed knowing the consequences.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 16, 2021 8:33:41 GMT -5
Also, Tom. He may have saved Sparrow Fur from One Eye, but he's still my least favorite character in the series.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 16, 2021 12:21:43 GMT -5
Also, Tom. He may have saved Sparrow Fur from One Eye, but he's still my least favorite character in the series. I COMPLETELY forgot about him!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 12:26:52 GMT -5
Also, Tom. He may have saved Sparrow Fur from One Eye, but he's still my least favorite character in the series. I definitely forgot about him, but yeah tom sucks!
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Sept 17, 2021 7:52:23 GMT -5
Needetail imo.
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