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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 3:01:37 GMT -5
i just can't shake this opinion.
just caution: this is just my opinion (in the form of a rant), and im not looking to convince anyone of anything. i just want to see if anyone out there shares my opinion because i hardly ever see anyone else complain about graystripe like i do lol.
i really do believe that being with silverstream has ruined him for life. he abandoned his first and only apprentice and has never taken up another apprentice for the rest of his life. and as such, i feel like his wisdom in TBC is unearned. being old and retired doesnt make you leadership material or somehow "wise." graystripe didn't do anything with his life and it's just so dumb for TBC and his SE to make us believe he has earned any of this. he hasn't.
either firestar never saw graystripe as mentor material and has never given him another apprentice since he came back, OR graystripe is such a lazy and awful warrior that he just never bothered asking for another one or dropping hints. i know not all warrior want to mentor or anything, but still---doesn't it bother ANYONE else that he has never once mentored a single apprentice and all of a sudden, TBC is making him come off as some wise leader? or how brackenfur claimed graystripe taught him everything he knows? like how ridiculous is this? brackenfur owes his warriorship to firestar, not graystripe!
and graystripe is an awful father to his kits with millie too. and i say this with my full chest because you know why? BLOSSOMFALL. blossomfall's subplot was all about parenting. but only MILLIE'S. why is it only millie's parenting that she cares about? are we just supposed to assume graystripe was a good dad despite having no evidence of that? we saw how he was with feather and storm. he USED to be a good dad. but his fickleness with clan loyalty ruined his chances of staying a dad to feather and storm in riverclan so oh WELL, maybe he was never a good dad to begin with.
edit: blossomfall went to train in the dark forest because no one noticed her and she felt neglected and felt jealous of her sister as a result. so if graystripe was a good dad, why did she go to the dark forest to train? i swear no one has given me good reason to believe graystripe was a good dad. if he was, blossomfall WOULD NOT have gone to the dark forest to feel noticed or appreciated...
but back to blossomfall. blossomfall harps on ONLY MILLIE for being a bad parent, but what about graystripe? there's not a single word about graystripe being in his new kits' lives. NONE.
and im tired of people saying "well graystripe's a background character now, of course we wont see his every move." but how many times do the books just mention him in passing? like "[protag] sees graystripe and millie going out on a patrol/returning from a patrol" etc. they SHOW him sometimes doing SOMETHING, but it's almost NEVER with or about his kits lives.
where was graystripe when his son bumble needed love advice? surely someone who risked his life for love would want to advise his son on such a topic. where was graystripe visiting briarlight ON HIS OWN?
if graystripe is such a "good dad," why didnt the books MENTION him? they could have written such short sentences to SHOW US he was a good dad like "dovewing saw bumblestripe return to camp. she began walking towards him to talk, but she noticed graystripe was with him. were they talking about her? suddenly, dovewing felt guilt burn in her pelt." or something, idk. they could have had such little cameos here and there to SHOW US he was being a dad off screen. IT WAS SO EASY TO AND YET THEY NEVER DID IT.
i swear, graystripe stopped being likeable as early as book 2 in Fire and Ice. this is why im so adament that gray x silver ruined graystripe forever (at least for me).
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 11, 2021 3:06:27 GMT -5
I mean, the reason they don't show him being a good dad (other than in his SE) is because that's how these books work in general? There's a lot of relationships in the background that just don't...get focus? Poppyfrost and Jayfeather, Sorreltail and Leafpool...
I don't think it's proof he's a bad dad. It's proof the writing forgets about background characters.
I don't know. I heavily disagree. His wise personality comes from all the bad stuff he's been through and life experience. It makes sense he's learned from his mistakes.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 11, 2021 3:18:16 GMT -5
No, I completely get what you mean. I know it's probably petty, but I just can't shake Graystripe's behavior in the first arc no matter how hard I try. He's a good cat and an excellent deputy and GV even made me like him a bit, but at the same time, I just can't get over how awful he was during the whole Silverstream thing and that he became deputy way too soon, Whitestorm's dying wish or not.
As for him as a father, it really is more of a problem with the writing, but with OotS being an arc focused so much on family and how Graystripe literally does nothing during the scolding scene, it leaves a bad impression on the reader, regardless of he's actually a good one or not (and I don't see why he would be a bad one, but the point is, it feels weird).
But yeah, you have a point. Just being a background character isn't really a good excuse, especially when all three of his kits were supporting characters and it's possible to give a background character, well, character, while still not making them prominent (ex: Daisy). Again, it's weird. For example, it really wouldn't have been that hard having Graystripe take Brackenfur's place in trying to mediate the situation.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 3:25:08 GMT -5
No, I completely get what you mean. I know it's probably petty, but I just can't shake Graystripe's behavior in the first arc no matter how hard I try. He's a good cat and an excellent deputy and GV even made me like him a bit, but at the same time, I just can't get over how awful he was during the whole Silverstream thing and that he became deputy way too soon, Whitestorm's dying wish or not. As for him as a father, it really is more of a problem with the writing, but with OotS being an arc focused so much on family and how Graystripe literally does nothing during the scolding scene, it leaves a bad impression on the reader, regardless of he's actually a good one or not (and I don't see why he would be a bad one, but the point is, it feels weird). But yeah, you have a point. Just being a background character isn't really a good excuse, especially when all three of his kits were supporting characters and it's possible to give a background character, well, character, while still not making them prominent (ex: Daisy). Again, it's weird. For example, it really wouldn't have been that hard having Graystripe take Brackenfur's place in trying to mediate the situation. especially since his son was involved with a protagonist at the time too....like why? i would have paid money to see graystripe give his son love advice. but nope, nothing. im not asking for large passages dedicated to showing graystipe, but like i said, just sentences here and there to SHOW and IMPLY things with on screen actions!
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Post by crowspirit on Sept 11, 2021 3:45:50 GMT -5
You're definitely not the only one who hates Graystripe, many fans and also a lot of popular Warrior Cats youtubers dislike him. But I get where the hate is coming from, he was only good in the very first book in my opinion, after that his character went downhill.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 11, 2021 7:57:21 GMT -5
I'm neutral on Graystripe, but his actions in Fire & Ice annoyed me a lot because of his relationship with Silverstream. It's why I don't like him much as a character. But I don't think that "ruined" him. But, I do think the fans give him too much credit for being a "good dad". He's barely around his kits, and being in the background isn't an excuse. I can debate against this and say that Blossomfall and Millie are shown together more often again, telling us that they've forgiven each other, so why can't the authors show Graystripe around his new kits? Being a "background character" isn't a very good defense in my opinion. They have shown plenty of background cats like Daisy be a good parent. His kits are a significant part of his life and I'm a little disappointed it's not shown very often from his own PoV. He should have been there for Blossomfall when Millie yelled at her though, I agree. It said in the book that he was watching Millie screaming at her daughter and he didn't do anything to stop her, yet the fandom likes to crap on Millie for her mistakes and praise Graystripe for being a good father when he's literally done nothing. He was a good father to Feather and Storm, but that's about it. Graystripe pretty much annoys me as a character and I don't understand the big deal about him. He was irresponsible in F&I with his duties as a warrior, and he's barely there for his second litter with Millie. Do I think he's a good mate? Yes. I like Gray x Millie a lot, ESPECIALLY when they're elders. But other than that, I don't care for Graystripe that much. He's not interesting or that great of a parent.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 11, 2021 8:00:17 GMT -5
No, I completely get what you mean. I know it's probably petty, but I just can't shake Graystripe's behavior in the first arc no matter how hard I try. He's a good cat and an excellent deputy and GV even made me like him a bit, but at the same time, I just can't get over how awful he was during the whole Silverstream thing and that he became deputy way too soon, Whitestorm's dying wish or not. As for him as a father, it really is more of a problem with the writing, but with OotS being an arc focused so much on family and how Graystripe literally does nothing during the scolding scene, it leaves a bad impression on the reader, regardless of he's actually a good one or not (and I don't see why he would be a bad one, but the point is, it feels weird). But yeah, you have a point. Just being a background character isn't really a good excuse, especially when all three of his kits were supporting characters and it's possible to give a background character, well, character, while still not making them prominent (ex: Daisy). Again, it's weird. For example, it really wouldn't have been that hard having Graystripe take Brackenfur's place in trying to mediate the situation. I just realized my comment is almost exactly like yours lol. Sorry. Didn't mean to copy you. XD
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 11, 2021 8:17:31 GMT -5
No, I completely get what you mean. I know it's probably petty, but I just can't shake Graystripe's behavior in the first arc no matter how hard I try. He's a good cat and an excellent deputy and GV even made me like him a bit, but at the same time, I just can't get over how awful he was during the whole Silverstream thing and that he became deputy way too soon, Whitestorm's dying wish or not. As for him as a father, it really is more of a problem with the writing, but with OotS being an arc focused so much on family and how Graystripe literally does nothing during the scolding scene, it leaves a bad impression on the reader, regardless of he's actually a good one or not (and I don't see why he would be a bad one, but the point is, it feels weird). But yeah, you have a point. Just being a background character isn't really a good excuse, especially when all three of his kits were supporting characters and it's possible to give a background character, well, character, while still not making them prominent (ex: Daisy). Again, it's weird. For example, it really wouldn't have been that hard having Graystripe take Brackenfur's place in trying to mediate the situation. I just realized my comment is almost exactly like yours lol. Sorry. Didn't mean to copy you. XD It's fine lol!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 11, 2021 9:03:46 GMT -5
Personally I love him, but I get where you're coming from. I more or less feel the same way about Sandstorm. I can't shake her impressions in the first arc, and I never cared for the rest of her character.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
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BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Pretty busy irl so not online as much atm...
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Sept 11, 2021 9:11:43 GMT -5
I like Graystripe but he was certainly a bad mentor and I'm still convinced he likes his first litter of kits more than his second one (but there's no real proof to back up that claim though). He was also the worst in Fire and Ice but that's an opinion most fans (not all, of course) seem to share.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 11, 2021 9:43:24 GMT -5
While I don't hate Graystripe, I lean towards dislike on my neutrality of him.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 13:55:41 GMT -5
Aqua 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵i was just wondering what u guys think of the idea that if graystripe was supposed to be a good dad, then why did blossomfall train in the dark forest? like does that logic make sense? she trained in the dark forest for not feeling appreciated or seen, and also she hated herself for being jealous of her sister, right? so if graystripe was there for her behind the scenes, i dont think she'd go to the dark forest at all because she'd have at least one parent talking to her...
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Post by Aqua on Sept 11, 2021 14:05:01 GMT -5
Aqua 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵i was just wondering what u guys think of the idea that if graystripe was supposed to be a good dad, then why did blossomfall train in the dark forest? like does that logic make sense? she trained in the dark forest for not feeling appreciated or seen, and also she hated herself for being jealous of her sister, right? so if graystripe was there for her behind the scenes, i dont think she'd go to the dark forest at all because she'd have at least one parent talking to her... She trained in the Dark Forest because of Millie's bad parenting. It wasn't Graystripe's fault. But it's entirely possible that his absence made her feel even more unloved when her own father wasn't there for her back in SotM, when she needed him the most.
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Post by Numquam on Sept 11, 2021 14:13:50 GMT -5
It's really hard to say about his relationship with his kits since we rarely see any background interaction with characters in general. Sometimes we get a few vague implications or something gets brought up once, but that doesn't always happen unfortunately. This is especially the case for a lot of parent-child relationships in the clan.
I do think that Millie should've spent time with all her kits, and not just Briarlight, and iirc Millie did rudely brush off Blossomfall a few times which really wasn't okay. But I don't know how fair it is to pin one of the blames on Greystripe since we really don't know how much he interacted with her behind the scenes. It's very possible that the two interacted a bit, but the Erins just didn't show it.
I know it stings not getting attention from your parents, but I dunno her sister had a permanent disability while Blossomfall herself was a fully-abled warrior - I feel like most of the blame goes to herself, not really her parents. If she craved attention, she could've focused on her friendships with her clanmates.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 11, 2021 14:17:53 GMT -5
Aqua 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵i was just wondering what u guys think of the idea that if graystripe was supposed to be a good dad, then why did blossomfall train in the dark forest? like does that logic make sense? she trained in the dark forest for not feeling appreciated or seen, and also she hated herself for being jealous of her sister, right? so if graystripe was there for her behind the scenes, i dont think she'd go to the dark forest at all because she'd have at least one parent talking to her... I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. I mean, look at Breezepelt. He still had Nightcloud, for better or worse, and we all know how he turned out. Cinderheart tried to be there for Ivypaw, too, and we know both Birchfall and Whitewing love their kits immensely. And if you're familiar with psychology or true crime, things like this also happen in real life, so yes, it does make sense if you look at it a certain way. We also see in FE that Millie spoiled her kits (or at least did this with Blossompaw), as indicated by her getting angry at Squirrelflight after the latter scolded Blossompaw for climbing the Great Oak. No doubt this stemmed from Briarpaw nearly dying twice before she became paralyzed, which of course only grew worse after the fact. Even if we did see Graystripe getting involved, I'm not sure how much good that would've done. For all we know, he was trying to be there for her and it just wasn't working.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 14:29:11 GMT -5
Aqua 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 i was just wondering what u guys think of the idea that if graystripe was supposed to be a good dad, then why did blossomfall train in the dark forest? like does that logic make sense? she trained in the dark forest for not feeling appreciated or seen, and also she hated herself for being jealous of her sister, right? so if graystripe was there for her behind the scenes, i dont think she'd go to the dark forest at all because she'd have at least one parent talking to her... I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. I mean, look at Breezepelt. He still had Nightcloud, for better or worse, and we all know how he turned out. Cinderheart tried to be there for Ivypaw, too, and we know both Birchfall and Whitewing love their kits immensely. And if you're familiar with psychology or true crime, things like this also happen in real life, so yes, it does make sense if you look at it a certain way. We also see in FE that Millie spoiled her kits (or at least did this with Blossompaw), as indicated by her getting angry at Squirrelflight after the latter scolded Blossompaw for climbing the Great Oak. No doubt this stemmed from Briarpaw nearly dying twice before she became paralyzed, which of course only grew worse after the fact. Even if we did see Graystripe getting involved, I'm not sure how much good that would've done. For all we know, he was trying to be there for her and it just wasn't working. i see what u mean! i just thought it was interesting because nightcloud is smothering and indirectly or directly enabled breezepelt's behavior that already got him in the dark forest, but in my mind, graystripe was neglectful and didn't influence blossom in any which way. it's strange.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 11, 2021 15:20:39 GMT -5
I agree with you about Graystripe in Fire and Ice! I do think he did more good things than bad things all around though. As for the Blossomfall thing, a lot of times, people focus ONLY on the negative, and just don't see the positive sides of things when it's right there. Like for example, if I say hi to a group of friends, and all but one say hi back, I will be fixated on why that person didn't say hi back. It works outside of people too, like, I can have six good days out of a week, and one bad one, but I will only focus on that bad day. I think with the case of Blossomfall, Millie, and Graystripe, it could be like that. Because unlike Millie, Graystripe didn't really dote on Briarlight the way Blossomfall did, he was in his kits' lives equal amounts, from what we saw, he basically spent no time with them, but still, it was even all around. Millie however, understandably from her POV spent all her energy and focus on Briarlight. Sorry for the rambly post that probably made no sense XD.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 11, 2021 16:00:10 GMT -5
Graystripe’s Vow kind of disproves this far reaching headcanon that Graystripe was ever a neglectful father who loved one litter more than the other. He was very vocal in his SE that he was immensely proud of and loved all of his kits and both of his mates with equal ferocity. I understand disliking Graystripe for his actions in Fire and Ice, even though I feel as if people are a bit too harsh on this looooong grudge against him for his one book where he’s not a perfect Warrior who makes the best decisions.
But I’m kind of exhausted with this push of him being a bad father when there is absolutely 0 canon evidence of him neglecting any kit, and actual canon evidence of him loving all of his kits equally in his Super Edition. Because by this logic, nearly every background father is neglectful. We never see Whitestorm interact with Sorreltail. Is he a neglectful father? We never get scenes of Breezepelt with his daughters. Is he a neglectful father like his father canonically was? We never see scenes of Dewnose interacting with his kits. Is he a neglectful father? The argument just tires me because tbh it feels more to be that a dislike for his past character is clouding judgement and people are just assuming he’s garbage to his three kits.
Which, is odd, considering if Blossomfall felt neglected by Millie, why was she not so upset if Graystripe supposedly was the worst father ever and neglected her? Why is Graystripe never mentioned to be neglectful by his kits if he was ever supposed to be a bad father? If anything, this shows he was perfectly fine, because none of his kits have issues regarding him. Only Millie.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 16:20:41 GMT -5
Graystripe’s Vow kind of disproves this far reaching headcanon that Graystripe was ever a neglectful father who loved one litter more than the other. He was very vocal in his SE that he was immensely proud of and loved all of his kits and both of his mates with equal ferocity. I understand disliking Graystripe for his actions in Fire and Ice, even though I feel as if people are a bit too harsh on this looooong grudge against him for his one book where he’s not a perfect Warrior who makes the best decisions. But I’m kind of exhausted with this push of him being a bad father when there is absolutely 0 canon evidence of him neglecting any kit, and actual canon evidence of him loving all of his kits equally in his Super Edition. Because by this logic, nearly every background father is neglectful. We never see Whitestorm interact with Sorreltail. Is he a neglectful father? We never get scenes of Breezepelt with his daughters. Is he a neglectful father like his father canonically was? We never see scenes of Dewnose interacting with his kits. Is he a neglectful father? The argument just tires me because tbh it feels more to be that a dislike for his past character is clouding judgement and people are just assuming he’s garbage to his three kits. Which, is odd, considering if Blossomfall felt neglected by Millie, why was she not so upset if Graystripe supposedly was the worst father ever and neglected her? Why is Graystripe never mentioned to be neglectful by his kits if he was ever supposed to be a bad father? If anything, this shows he was perfectly fine, because none of his kits have issues regarding him. Only Millie. to me, graystripe's SE is just backpedaling to make it seem like he was good all this time even though there's barely any mentions of him doing anything good in the backgound (like i said, mere sentences of showing him in the background with bumble or blossom or anything would have sufficed. im not asking for much). his SE just feels like a huge backpedal. "see graystripe was good all this time, we just forgot to allude to that during the main series so here's a whole SE to compensate for our laziness." im pretty harsh on this topic, but its just how i feel and i cant shake how they dont even bother making people like me like graystripe. why focus on parents so much for blossomfall if they dont include the father, graystripe? i dont understand how we should just assume graystripe was a good dad if what little we were given doesnt prove it. he watches millie shout at blossomfall. there's no mention of graystripe visiting briarlight on his own without millie (dont they just mention millie whenever briarlight was mentioned? where's graystripe? did they forget they were his kits too? wouldnt surprise me since they did that infamous mistake of saying misty and stone were gray's kits lol). eithers its all bad writing which explains why cats now a days dont have fleshed out relationships (both platonic and familial), or graystripe was just never a good character to begin with and they didn't bother showing him in the background doing anything good. just mentioning him with his son or daughters would have sufficed, but i dont remmeber a single time he was mentioned in the background with them.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 11, 2021 17:01:37 GMT -5
Graystripe’s Vow kind of disproves this far reaching headcanon that Graystripe was ever a neglectful father who loved one litter more than the other. He was very vocal in his SE that he was immensely proud of and loved all of his kits and both of his mates with equal ferocity. I understand disliking Graystripe for his actions in Fire and Ice, even though I feel as if people are a bit too harsh on this looooong grudge against him for his one book where he’s not a perfect Warrior who makes the best decisions. But I’m kind of exhausted with this push of him being a bad father when there is absolutely 0 canon evidence of him neglecting any kit, and actual canon evidence of him loving all of his kits equally in his Super Edition. Because by this logic, nearly every background father is neglectful. We never see Whitestorm interact with Sorreltail. Is he a neglectful father? We never get scenes of Breezepelt with his daughters. Is he a neglectful father like his father canonically was? We never see scenes of Dewnose interacting with his kits. Is he a neglectful father? The argument just tires me because tbh it feels more to be that a dislike for his past character is clouding judgement and people are just assuming he’s garbage to his three kits. Which, is odd, considering if Blossomfall felt neglected by Millie, why was she not so upset if Graystripe supposedly was the worst father ever and neglected her? Why is Graystripe never mentioned to be neglectful by his kits if he was ever supposed to be a bad father? If anything, this shows he was perfectly fine, because none of his kits have issues regarding him. Only Millie. to me, graystripe's SE is just backpedaling to make it seem like he was good all this time even though there's barely any mentions of him doing anything good in the backgound (like i said, mere sentences of showing him in the background with bumble or blossom or anything would have sufficed. im not asking for much). his SE just feels like a huge backpedal. "see graystripe was good all this time, we just forgot to allude to that during the main series so here's a whole SE to compensate for our laziness." im pretty harsh on this topic, but its just how i feel and i cant shake how they dont even bother making people like me like graystripe. why focus on parents so much for blossomfall if they dont include the father, graystripe? i dont understand how we should just assume graystripe was a good dad if what little we were given doesnt prove it. he watches millie shout at blossomfall. there's no mention of graystripe visiting briarlight on his own without millie (dont they just mention millie whenever briarlight was mentioned? where's graystripe? did they forget they were his kits too? wouldnt surprise me since they did that infamous mistake of saying misty and stone were gray's kits lol). eithers its all bad writing which explains why cats now a days dont have fleshed out relationships (both platonic and familial), or graystripe was just never a good character to begin with and they didn't bother showing him in the background doing anything good. just mentioning him with his son or daughters would have sufficed, but i dont remmeber a single time he was mentioned in the background with them. Or…We never got his POV before and now we do? His SE doesn’t feel like backpedaling at all, to me at least. You say there’s no evidence to prove he was a good father, but that literally is the canon evidence that he was. It’s okay to not like canon moments, but to deny their existence is detrimental to the argument. There was 0 canon evidence that he was a neglectful father. No mention from his daughter who felt neglected of him. Blossomfall had 0 quarrel with Graystripe. Why? She would have mentioned him if she felt neglected. Not once ever did she. Meanwhile, there are scenes of him interacting with his kits. Scenes of him openly stating his love for his kits too. He’s very warm and loving when they’re born, gently welcoming them into the clan. He states how deeply he loves them when he becomes an elder. He’s super invested in Blossompaw’s warrior assessment and super proud when all of his kits pass the assessment, he tells Millie to relax when she frets over Briarlight playing with the new kits, saying that she should let their daughter have fun, and he also has scenes being stern when Blossomfall and Bumblestripe speak disrespectfully to senior warriors and are punished for it by having to collect feathers. That’s not really a neglectful father in my eyes. To claim there are no scenes of them together is kind of false, because reading through the book summaries with Graystripe, there are some scenes with him interacting with his kits as any father would…
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 17:12:24 GMT -5
to me, graystripe's SE is just backpedaling to make it seem like he was good all this time even though there's barely any mentions of him doing anything good in the backgound (like i said, mere sentences of showing him in the background with bumble or blossom or anything would have sufficed. im not asking for much). his SE just feels like a huge backpedal. "see graystripe was good all this time, we just forgot to allude to that during the main series so here's a whole SE to compensate for our laziness." im pretty harsh on this topic, but its just how i feel and i cant shake how they dont even bother making people like me like graystripe. why focus on parents so much for blossomfall if they dont include the father, graystripe? i dont understand how we should just assume graystripe was a good dad if what little we were given doesnt prove it. he watches millie shout at blossomfall. there's no mention of graystripe visiting briarlight on his own without millie (dont they just mention millie whenever briarlight was mentioned? where's graystripe? did they forget they were his kits too? wouldnt surprise me since they did that infamous mistake of saying misty and stone were gray's kits lol). eithers its all bad writing which explains why cats now a days dont have fleshed out relationships (both platonic and familial), or graystripe was just never a good character to begin with and they didn't bother showing him in the background doing anything good. just mentioning him with his son or daughters would have sufficed, but i dont remmeber a single time he was mentioned in the background with them. Or…We never got his POV before and now we do? His SE doesn’t feel like backpedaling at all, to me at least. You say there’s no evidence to prove he was a good father, but that literally is the canon evidence that he was. It’s okay to not like canon moments, but to deny their existence is detrimental to the argument. There was 0 canon evidence that he was a neglectful father. No mention from his daughter who felt neglected of him. Blossomfall had 0 quarrel with Graystripe. Why? She would have mentioned him if she felt neglected. Not once ever did she. Meanwhile, there are scenes of him interacting with his kits. Scenes of him openly stating his love for his kits too. He’s very warm and loving when they’re born, gently welcoming them into the clan. He states how deeply he loves them when he becomes an elder. He’s super invested in Blossompaw’s warrior assessment and super proud when all of his kits pass the assessment, he tells Millie to relax when she frets over Briarlight playing with the new kits, saying that she should let their daughter have fun, and he also has scenes being stern when Blossomfall and Bumblestripe speak disrespectfully to senior warriors and are punished for it by having to collect feathers. That’s not really a neglectful father in my eyes. To claim there are no scenes of them together is kind of false, because reading through the book summaries with Graystripe, there are some scenes with him interacting with his kits as any father would… no meaningful interactions when they were adults. im looking specifically for OotS because thats when the 3B's had a lot of relevance (bumblestripe was interacting with a protag, dovewing. blossomfall was in the dark forest, where the main conflict was. briarlight's accident and her friendship with jayfeather, etc.). when the 3B's become warriors, graystripe is with millie gazing proudly. that's not a direct interaction, just a mention of his actions toward them. that's fine. books later in the forgotten warrior: graystripe tells dovewing that blossom and bumble can go get feathers and tha they can keep doing apprentice duties. this isn't anything special either and it's such a distant thing to include. idk why this is what they chose to spend graystripe's interactions with his kits on. thats mainly it for OotS. the other times bumble is mentioned in graystripe's wiki page is when briarlight dies, and thats to be expected. so no there's no background evidence to show graystripe having menaingful, one sentence or mere mention appearances with his kits when his kits were most relevant (in OotS). his SE is backpedaling to me because they didn't build up to his actions before the SE came out. if they work on the main series and SE around the same time, why not tell the main series team to include more cameos of graystripe before hand to make his SE make sense.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 11, 2021 17:41:32 GMT -5
Or…We never got his POV before and now we do? His SE doesn’t feel like backpedaling at all, to me at least. You say there’s no evidence to prove he was a good father, but that literally is the canon evidence that he was. It’s okay to not like canon moments, but to deny their existence is detrimental to the argument. There was 0 canon evidence that he was a neglectful father. No mention from his daughter who felt neglected of him. Blossomfall had 0 quarrel with Graystripe. Why? She would have mentioned him if she felt neglected. Not once ever did she. Meanwhile, there are scenes of him interacting with his kits. Scenes of him openly stating his love for his kits too. He’s very warm and loving when they’re born, gently welcoming them into the clan. He states how deeply he loves them when he becomes an elder. He’s super invested in Blossompaw’s warrior assessment and super proud when all of his kits pass the assessment, he tells Millie to relax when she frets over Briarlight playing with the new kits, saying that she should let their daughter have fun, and he also has scenes being stern when Blossomfall and Bumblestripe speak disrespectfully to senior warriors and are punished for it by having to collect feathers. That’s not really a neglectful father in my eyes. To claim there are no scenes of them together is kind of false, because reading through the book summaries with Graystripe, there are some scenes with him interacting with his kits as any father would… no meaningful interactions when they were adults. im looking specifically for OotS because thats when the 3B's had a lot of relevance (bumblestripe was interacting with a protag, dovewing. blossomfall was in the dark forest, where the main conflict was. briarlight's accident and her friendship with jayfeather, etc.). when the 3B's become warriors, graystripe is with millie gazing proudly. that's not a direct interaction, just a mention of his actions toward them. that's fine. books later in the forgotten warrior: graystripe tells dovewing that blossom and bumble can go get feathers and tha they can keep doing apprentice duties. this isn't anything special either and it's such a distant thing to include. idk why this is what they chose to spend graystripe's interactions with his kits on. thats mainly it for OotS. the other times bumble is mentioned in graystripe's wiki page is when briarlight dies, and thats to be expected. so no there's no background evidence to show graystripe having menaingful, one sentence or mere mention appearances with his kits when his kits were most relevant (in OotS). his SE is backpedaling to me because they didn't build up to his actions before the SE came out. if they work on the main series and SE around the same time, why not tell the main series team to include more cameos of graystripe before hand to make his SE make sense. Look, I don’t know why the books didn’t cater specifically to you and your versions of ideal interactions between background characters. If nothing they do satisfies you, that is your opinion and I respect it, but it is absolutely not canon in the slightest that he was ever a neglectful father. Ignoring canon evidence is fine if you want to, but it’s still canon evidence blatantly in GV that he loves all his kits equally. The book is not backpedaling. The book is giving Graystripe a main character spotlight, which OOTS did not. He’s a background character and sadly they are not going to be focused on, but he still is shown loving his kits through their age changes. He doesn’t need to coddle his adult kits 24/7 to not be falsely accused of being a bad father. Yeesh. This fandom will go the mile to defend Crowfeather, and actually openly and canonically neglectful father, but will not stand for Graystripe to not interact with his grown adult kids in the background. I understand your personal opinion, I just really hope you don’t state these as hard borne facts, because the books disprove them.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 11, 2021 17:43:32 GMT -5
Moonblazer hit the nail on the head, there are some huge double standards when it comes to Graystripe’s parenting. These are the lines of logic that would have you believe everyone with little screen time is a bad parent.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 11, 2021 17:46:22 GMT -5
Moonblazer vectoring34agree to disagree then. im not looking to debate anyways.
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Post by Rainsplash on Sept 11, 2021 19:37:11 GMT -5
I just think the Erins forgot about the three B's father honestly.
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Post by Fernflower on Sept 11, 2021 20:59:35 GMT -5
Graystripe’s Vow kind of disproves this far reaching headcanon that Graystripe was ever a neglectful father who loved one litter more than the other. He was very vocal in his SE that he was immensely proud of and loved all of his kits and both of his mates with equal ferocity. I understand disliking Graystripe for his actions in Fire and Ice, even though I feel as if people are a bit too harsh on this looooong grudge against him for his one book where he’s not a perfect Warrior who makes the best decisions. But I’m kind of exhausted with this push of him being a bad father when there is absolutely 0 canon evidence of him neglecting any kit, and actual canon evidence of him loving all of his kits equally in his Super Edition. Because by this logic, nearly every background father is neglectful. We never see Whitestorm interact with Sorreltail. Is he a neglectful father? We never get scenes of Breezepelt with his daughters. Is he a neglectful father like his father canonically was? We never see scenes of Dewnose interacting with his kits. Is he a neglectful father? The argument just tires me because tbh it feels more to be that a dislike for his past character is clouding judgement and people are just assuming he’s garbage to his three kits. Which, is odd, considering if Blossomfall felt neglected by Millie, why was she not so upset if Graystripe supposedly was the worst father ever and neglected her? Why is Graystripe never mentioned to be neglectful by his kits if he was ever supposed to be a bad father? If anything, this shows he was perfectly fine, because none of his kits have issues regarding him. Only Millie. to me, graystripe's SE is just backpedaling to make it seem like he was good all this time even though there's barely any mentions of him doing anything good in the backgound (like i said, mere sentences of showing him in the background with bumble or blossom or anything would have sufficed. im not asking for much). his SE just feels like a huge backpedal. "see graystripe was good all this time, we just forgot to allude to that during the main series so here's a whole SE to compensate for our laziness." im pretty harsh on this topic, but its just how i feel and i cant shake how they dont even bother making people like me like graystripe. why focus on parents so much for blossomfall if they dont include the father, graystripe? i dont understand how we should just assume graystripe was a good dad if what little we were given doesnt prove it. he watches millie shout at blossomfall. there's no mention of graystripe visiting briarlight on his own without millie (dont they just mention millie whenever briarlight was mentioned? where's graystripe? did they forget they were his kits too? wouldnt surprise me since they did that infamous mistake of saying misty and stone were gray's kits lol). eithers its all bad writing which explains why cats now a days dont have fleshed out relationships (both platonic and familial), or graystripe was just never a good character to begin with and they didn't bother showing him in the background doing anything good. just mentioning him with his son or daughters would have sufficed, but i dont remmeber a single time he was mentioned in the background with them. I agree with you. When there's no evidence for or against Gray being a good parent, of course people are going to wonder if he's actually a good parent or not. He was once a character we knew practically everything about, so now that he's out of the spotlight it's weird not having as much info on him. Reading GV and hearing how much he loves his kits is nice but when you compare it to the fact that he wasn't even brought up in the scenes in OOTS that obviously were applicable to him, it feels kind of disingenuous. This is also why I'm so strongly against having so many characters in the Clans--too many characters, not enough pages for character development.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Sept 12, 2021 3:06:53 GMT -5
Moonblazer I completely agree with you when it comes to the pettiness of holding a grudge against Graystripe for his behaviour in Fire and Ice which happened ages ago both in the narrative and as this book came out almost two decades ago. It's just that I get annoyed at him all over whenever re-reading the series but thankfully this book is the second one and he improves again afterwards. I could never hate Graystripe for long though as he's way too iconic. You also made a really good point with the false notion that he loved his first litter more than his second one, which was something I thought at least a little bit due to him interacting so much with Stormfur and Feathertail in the first arc and so little with Briarlight, Blossomfall and Bumblestripe in the following arcs in comparison. But you are right that this is because Graystripe was no longer a major character and thus had way fewer scenes than before. His SE is one of the best ones, in my opinion and shows that he really does love his entire family equally. I was only able to read that book once when it got released last year because my hardcover version got destroyed and the paperback comes out next week (14th of September 2021). So my memories of certain details were kind of hazy at this point. Thank you for refreshing them.
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