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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 1, 2021 15:16:59 GMT -5
was discussing this with a friend and it made me think.
do any of the deputies earn their positions?
firestar was chosen because bluestar trusted him and not many others. but he was also a prophecy cat, so theres that to factor in too.
brambleclaw was part of the journey quest, but other than that, did he actually earn his deputyship? did firestar only choose him to show good faith to tigerstar's son?
tigerheart was a dark forest trainee/spy and didnt really do much else. plus, he was the leaders son too. but he later gets treated like cat jesus and was suddenly the ONLY cat able to take over shadowclan.
tawnypelt is in the same boat. she was the leader's mate so did she really earn it? she's not emotionally stable and prefers to run to her brother in thunderclan for help all the time, so i doubt she was chosen for her actual skills.
harespring was also a dark forest trainee and was most likely only picked to show good faith to the redeemed trainees.
squirrelflight was gifted deputyship from a silver platter just because her former mate wanted to apologize and show her he trusted her. i've always said this about this one in particular, but theres other ways to mend ur relationship without using an important clan position like that...
and i have no clue why crowfeather was picked. is it just because he's older and was also on the journey quest in TNP? why in the world was he picked?
we dont see much of reedwhisker or cloverfoot so we dont know if they earned theirs or not. but since reedwhisker is the leader's kit, like tigerheart, i'll assume he didnt truly earn his spot either.
what do u guys think about this observation? is it fair or unfair? i just thought this was interesting!
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 1, 2021 15:30:16 GMT -5
i think its a bit of an unfair observation because you’re kinda just guessing at/assuming the motivation for most of these. we dont know why crowfeather was picked, or have reason to believe firestar only picked brambleclaw is to “show faith” in him (?).
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Post by Chicken on Sept 1, 2021 17:24:57 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of this. In Mistystar's Omen, Reedwhisker seemed like one of the most hardworking and responsible warriors, so I think it could be said he earned it regardless of if Mistystar is his mother or not. As for Crowfeather, I think he made a good impression on Harestar in his SE, I remember them having a conversation or something. As annoying as he is, and how entitled and traitorous of a brat he is, he still had the most brains of pretty much anyone in that SE. I still don't think he deserves to be deputy though from that alone, or because he was handpicked by his DAD to go on the journey.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Sept 1, 2021 17:31:37 GMT -5
I think deputies do earn their positions. The leader knows that being a deputy is an important and difficult position and they're going to have to carefully select the cat they feel is best suited for it. The deputy-to-be obviously has some sort of character and personality traits they're known for to be selected- so they've earned it that way, by being a good warrior. Leaders usually don't choose their future deputy lightly.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Sept 1, 2021 19:39:23 GMT -5
I think it's a bit unfair of an observation.
Firestar - I can see why you would think he didn't earn his deputyship. It is true that he was the only cat Bluestar trusted at the time after Tigerclaw's betrayal. However, Firestar did prove his trustworthiness by saving Bluestar's life - he had been the one saying all along that Tigerclaw was the one who killed Redtail. He also went on a mission to drive out Brokenstar from ShadowClan while he was still an apprentice, and he went to rescue WindClan as a new warrior. Firestar did a lot to earn his deputyship. He was young, yes, but he earned his position and he proved time and time again that it was the right decision.
Brambleclaw - You seem to have forgotten that Leafpool received a sign from StarClan that Brambleclaw was meant to be the next deputy. Yes, Brambleclaw went on the journey to the Sundrownplace. But you're forgetting how huge of a thing that was. Without Brambleclaw (and the other cats who went on the journey), the Clans would have died. They never would have cooperated, they never would've gotten to the lake. Brambleclaw, above all the others, absolutely deserved his deputyship at the time.
Tigerheart - I can see your point with Tigerheart. I honestly despise him so it's hard for me to think of a good reason why he got deputy. But he had been shown, time and time again, that he was a strong, loyal ShadowClan warrior. So while it is suspicious that he was the leader's son, he probably did earn it and we just didn't have enough POV in ShadowClan to see it.
Tawnypelt - Tawnypelt had been a loyal ShadowClan cat from the moment she left ThunderClan to join them. Even after Tigerstar died and Firestar offered to allow her back into ThunderClan, she said that she just wanted to be a loyal warrior in her new Clan. Everything she did in ShadowClan was done to prove that she was a loyal ShadowClan warrior. She only went to her brother in ThunderClan when she knew her Clan was in desperate need of help but that Rowanstar was far too proud to ask for it. I think she, of all cats on the journey, deserved to be deputy of her Clan.
Harespring - Yes, I'm sure part of the reasoning for picking Harespring to be deputy was to show good faith to the Dark Forest trainees. We didn't see much of him while he was a regular warrior in WindClan, so we can't say for sure why he got picked. But we saw while he was deputy and while he's been leader that he is strong, loyal, and fair. So it's safe to assume that he had been like that as a warrior too, and that is likely the reason he got picked.
Squirrelflight - Squirrelflight being chose as deputy is, in my opinion, the most suspicious one. But at the same time, she had also always shown herself to be a strong and loyal warrior, so it's not surprising that she got picked. And after the Great Battle, how many other cats can we say were truly strong enough to take over as deputy after Firestar's death? Graystripe and Dustpelt were too old. Brackenfur and Cloudtail were both older than Bramblestar, so while they could've made good deputies, they wouldn't have lasted long in the role. Thornclaw was older than Bramblestar as well, and also far too aggressive. Whitewing wouldn't have made a good deputy, she was too soft. Maybe Lionblaze, but then the argument would've been that he was in the prophecy of three and that's the only reason he got it. There is nobody else who survived that could've been made deputy at the time.
Crowfeather - Listen, I agree that Crowfeather was a weird pick. But he was a strong and loyal warrior for his Clan, and we don't have enough POV in WindClan to know for sure whether he really deserved it or not.
Reedwhisker - I agree we don't have enough information about him to know whether he deserved it. From the authors' POV, his was likely the only name in RiverClan we'd recognize, so of course they'd pick him over someone nobody actually knew.
Cloverfoot - We saw enough of Cloverfoot during Alderheart's POV in ShadowClan during the last book in AVOS to know that she was a loyal ShadowClan warrior. She cared about ShadowClan and only wanted what was best for her Clanmates.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 1, 2021 19:42:51 GMT -5
For Tawnypelt and Crowfeather... they are one of the most senior warriors in their clan, therefore they have a lot of experience. Basically how Firestar decided to pick Whitestorm. So yeah I would say more experience means they have earned it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 1, 2021 19:45:02 GMT -5
I don't see how you can criticize Rowanstar for picking Tawnypelt and Tigerheart when they were literally the only cats who didn't betray him and go to follow Darktail. They were pretty much objectively the only correct choices based on that fact alone. Even if they were underqualified, he didn't exactly have much of a choice when it's choosing between them and cats who turned their back on him for a murderous rogue.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 1, 2021 20:26:05 GMT -5
For Tawnypelt and Crowfeather... they are one of the most senior warriors in their clan, therefore they have a lot of experience. Basically how Firestar decided to pick Whitestorm. So yeah I would say more experience means they have earned it. i dont think senior warrior automatically means leadership abilities. i feel like there should be more that a cat should be seen doing to be considered but thats just my opinion. it also bugs me because tawny, crow, and squirrel were all deputy at somepoint and theyr'e all from TNP. im just tired of seeing TNP get so much attention and relevance.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 1, 2021 20:45:49 GMT -5
You know, I've been thinking, and if you think about it, even before this, deputies weren't really earning it. Like, Crookestar was chosen because of that fake omen by Mapleshade with the scary squirrel or something? Brokenstar well...that really was nepotism. Tallstar, I can't say he didn't earn it, because they showed us nothing, he had a whole ass SE and they didn't even show us how a dude who ran away to kill another dude ended up becoming deputy. Like, I know Heatherstar knew he was going to leave, and that he didn't kill him, but I just want to know how he went from being this hotheaded guy who went off to go kill a guy to this level headed and hippie like guy that he is in the main series. I know with age, wisdom, and his journey or whatever, but I wanted to see it. Either way, even if the deputies don't exactly earn it sometimes, I think it's what they do with their position of power that matters in the long run, like Harestar might not have deserved it over other cats who didn't train in the DF, but he's been doing a great job with his clan so far.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 1, 2021 20:54:11 GMT -5
For Tawnypelt and Crowfeather... they are one of the most senior warriors in their clan, therefore they have a lot of experience. Basically how Firestar decided to pick Whitestorm. So yeah I would say more experience means they have earned it. i dont think senior warrior automatically means leadership abilities. i feel like there should be more that a cat should be seen doing to be considered but thats just my opinion. it also bugs me because tawny, crow, and squirrel were all deputy at somepoint and theyr'e all from TNP. im just tired of seeing TNP get so much attention and relevance. Eh... from personal experience, the most senior person is usually the best to go to because of the experience they culminated is extremely important. They would know how to handle situations way better than the average warrior based on their higher skill and knowledge. We really don’t get to see Tawnypelt and Crowfeather in action now, so these leadership abilities you think are not present are mostly “off screen”.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 1, 2021 20:56:49 GMT -5
rabbitWell, Nightcloud is more senior than Crowfeather and she's had two apprentices, which is less than Crowfeather, but not shabby. I think you've totally sold me on the idea of Nightcloudstar, but I kind of want her to get iced by the end of this arc too, but I do like the idea.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 1, 2021 21:02:38 GMT -5
rabbitWell, Nightcloud is more senior than Crowfeather and she's had two apprentices, which is less than Crowfeather, but not shabby. I think you've totally sold me on the idea of Nightcloudstar, but I kind of want her to get iced by the end of this arc too, but I do like the idea. I kind of like this idea too. She’s extremely strong-willed and loyal to her Clan honestly.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 1, 2021 21:04:25 GMT -5
rabbit Well, Nightcloud is more senior than Crowfeather and she's had two apprentices, which is less than Crowfeather, but not shabby. I think you've totally sold me on the idea of Nightcloudstar, but I kind of want her to get iced by the end of this arc too, but I do like the idea. I kind of like this idea too. She’s extremely strong-willed and loyal to her Clan honestly. Agreed! I think Nightcloudstar with Heathertail as her deputy could be interesting, but I think I'd rather see Leaftail, because Heathertail would be a little cliche and you could see it from a mile away. Leaftail though, they started off on the bad foot, so it could be an interesting dynamic, plus he seems to hold the code in pretty high regard, and he got angry at cats being disrespectful towards Kestrelflight, I think he could be a good contender honestly.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 1, 2021 21:40:22 GMT -5
I mean, a deputy is essentially the leader's right hand. Most of them have experience, but it makes sense that leaders would also choose the cats they trust the most? Rowanstar especially, given the rest of his clan sucks
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 1, 2021 21:45:46 GMT -5
I mean, a deputy is essentially the leader's right hand. Most of them have experience, but it makes sense that leaders would also choose the cats they trust the most? Rowanstar especially, given the rest of his clan sucks true i guess. just sucks that trust seems to equal bias. they only pick their obvious close kin, obvious close friends, former apprentices (they can only trust cats they personally mentored? how biased is that?), or mates (bramble handing squirrel deputyship on a silver platter just for relationship sake and not for the sake of the clan).
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 1, 2021 22:46:13 GMT -5
I mean, a deputy is essentially the leader's right hand. Most of them have experience, but it makes sense that leaders would also choose the cats they trust the most? Rowanstar especially, given the rest of his clan sucks true i guess. just sucks that trust seems to equal bias. they only pick their obvious close kin, obvious close friends, former apprentices (they can only trust cats they personally mentored? how biased is that?), or mates (bramble handing squirrel deputyship on a silver platter just for relationship sake and not for the sake of the clan). It makes sense though. If you were leading a clan, wouldn't you prefer to pick someone you'd trust with your life? Especially given the moment you die, they suddenly get power? Tigerstar is a good example of WHY you're careful with your deputy choice. They're only going to trust kin, close friends, and mates because those cats are less likely to betray/kill them. Especially when you're Bluestar (who has already had one deputy make an attempt on her life) or Rowanstar (whose entire clan casted him out)
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 1, 2021 22:58:06 GMT -5
true i guess. just sucks that trust seems to equal bias. they only pick their obvious close kin, obvious close friends, former apprentices (they can only trust cats they personally mentored? how biased is that?), or mates (bramble handing squirrel deputyship on a silver platter just for relationship sake and not for the sake of the clan). It makes sense though. If you were leading a clan, wouldn't you prefer to pick someone you'd trust with your life? Especially given the moment you die, they suddenly get power? Tigerstar is a good example of WHY you're careful with your deputy choice. They're only going to trust kin, close friends, and mates because those cats are less likely to betray/kill them. Especially when you're Bluestar (who has already had one deputy make an attempt on her life) or Rowanstar (whose entire clan casted him out) i wish they'd care more for the clan as a whole. it just feels like this topic is another example of the cats not having big social circles within their own clans. like they dont trust anyone else's ability to be deputy or future leader? idk how better to word what i mean by this topic.
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