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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Sept 8, 2021 12:07:51 GMT -5
Squirrelflight, I think she is a lot more interesting and complex than Bramblestar who became a whole different character in the second arc. I don't hate Bramblestar, but I'm a big fan of Squirrelflight so this one is easy.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Sept 8, 2021 12:19:36 GMT -5
Just because Squirrelflight fans defend her, dosen't mean we are getting "tricked" by the narrative into beliving she's something great. We just happen to view the situation in a way that makes us understand her, then defend her, but we defentively aren't getting tricked by the narrative, it's just a matter of different opinions. In fact, just because we defend her, dosen't mean we worship her and ignore everything wrong she does. there's definately a more mature side to the squirrelflight fandom that do acknowledge her flaws, and thats obviously not the part people like me have issues with. its the ones who quote moonkitti's heavily biased video, and the ones who put down bramble in order to prop squirrel up, etc. there's sides like this to every fandom and character's fandoms. i just find it weird that not many people are willing to bring up the meta side of things, how the writers write her a certain way despite her actions (from another perspective) would be seen as wrong. idk how else to explain what i mean, but i wasnt attacking specific people on here. I honestly agree with you. I am a Squirrelflight fan, and I used to be a Bramblestar hater, until I reread the series recently and I finally could acknowledge that he isn't that bad at all. I am still not a big fan of him, but I definitely don't hate him anymore. I have never really been one of those Moonkitti stans who act like her opinion is the opinion of God (even though I definitely enjoy her videos, most of them are really funny), but I was definitely influenced by her biased analysis, and I'm happy I was able to form my own opinion after the reread. Squirrelflight is an extremely flawed character, and that makes her such a good character for a fandom; people are able to interpret her in multiple ways. Squirrelflight is one of my favs and I will definitely defend her, but I can see why other people wouldn't like her and I respect people who are able to discuss about her in a mature way.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 8, 2021 12:42:27 GMT -5
there's definately a more mature side to the squirrelflight fandom that do acknowledge her flaws, and thats obviously not the part people like me have issues with. its the ones who quote moonkitti's heavily biased video, and the ones who put down bramble in order to prop squirrel up, etc. there's sides like this to every fandom and character's fandoms. i just find it weird that not many people are willing to bring up the meta side of things, how the writers write her a certain way despite her actions (from another perspective) would be seen as wrong. idk how else to explain what i mean, but i wasnt attacking specific people on here. I honestly agree with you. I am a Squirrelflight fan, and I used to be a Bramblestar hater, until I reread the series recently and I finally could acknowledge that he isn't that bad at all. I am still not a big fan of him, but I definitely don't hate him anymore. I have never really been one of those Moonkitti stans who act like her opinion is the opinion of God (even though I definitely enjoy her videos, most of them are really funny), but I was definitely influenced by her biased analysis, and I'm happy I was able to form my own opinion. Squirrelflight is an extremely flawed character, and that makes her such a good character for a fandom; people are able to interpret her in multiple ways. Squirrelflight is one of my favs and I will definitely defend her, but I can see why other people wouldn't like her and I respect people who are able to discuss about her in a mature way. I'm so glad you were able to form your own opinion on the Moonkitti video and Bramblestar as a character. I also still watch and enjoy her more light hearted content. After seeing "Bramblestar is Worse" twice and also the "Quick Ashfur Addendum" one, I'll just refrain from looking at more serious content of hers if it feels like her stuff is too heavily biased for my tastes. Both Bramblestar and Squirrelflight are characters I'm able to enjoy despite them being deeply flawed and far from perfect. But I'm always open to hear other takes on different topics and understand where they are coming from.
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Post by kitters on Sept 8, 2021 15:29:53 GMT -5
Yeah. For many people, they recognize signs in the books that remind them of their own life and relationships. I've heard people say they recognized they were in an abusive relationship because of moon kitties video. And when the evidence is lined up like that in video format you can clearly see the toxicity in the relationship and it is NOT really that far fetched to suggest bramble has abusive tendencies. He banned squirrelflight from leaving camp without his permission, very weird and controlling, and he nearly physically prevented Leafpool from saving a cat's life, on top of a whole bunch of other red flags in SQH and other books. To say it's not true in canon is just.. well, not true Personally I'd like to see someone make a video similar to moonkitties but arguing that squirrelflight is worse. We need two videos compiling all the awful things these characters have done so we can look at all the evidence and decide which one really is Worse so we can stop having debates about this No offense, but I respectfully disagree. Squirrelflight snuck out of camp like a naïve apprentice, despite being an aged warrior, and went directly against Bramblestar's orders. She even got their own daughter to lie for her, and got captured, and another leader hurt. Her being punished and not allowed to leave camp for a while is fair imo. She broke the rules, she was reprimanded. I don't see how that's abusive. She also once again went behind Bramble's back by allowing the Sisters into their camp, without even asking Bramble for permission first. Bringing hostile cats, that had previously held her captive and wounded a clan leader, into the heart of their camp. Not only were the Sisters a bunch of troublemakers that started fights with clan cats, Bramblestar very much had even more of a reason not to trust or help them. Is it morally debatable? Sure, but from a leader's perspective his choice makes sense. He was putting his clan's safety first, and was being cautious, especially because of Squirrelflight getting them into that mess in the first place. Squirrelflight was acting on her own, making decisions she had no business making, if anything she could have, and should have, been demoted for her behavior. Even if it were a different cat, they would have been reprimanded all the same, Squirrelflight being his mate is no excuse for her behavior, and not a pass so she can get away with going against orders. Prior to that Bramblestar was perfectly fine with her, level headed, and wanting to compromise, and even expressing that that should talk things out in private first, not her undermining him in front of other leaders. He was quite respectful and trusting of her, but she did not return that said respect and trust and acted on her own. At the end of the day, Bramblestar is leader, and her leader, and she is his deputy, their clan comes first. Squirrelflight had responsibility as a deputy, and chose to break the rules, and break the trust between a leader and a deputy. If people want to accuse Bramble of having abusive tendencies, then do they actually just expect him to instead just let Squirrelflight get away with everything she did just because they're mates? Do they expect him not to punish her because of bias? Do they expect him to be overjoyed that she lied to him, undermined him, and went behind his back? Like genuinely I want to know at this point. I'm mostly just curious why you feel the need to quote and text wall everyone who disagrees with you. All I said is that people seeing abusive traits in Bramble isn't a "trash take" or w/e. Both are fine. Both characters have toxic tendencies it doesn't necessarily make them canonically abusive or canonically not abusive. It's unclear. The books are a mess. Some people have completely valid reason to see Bramble as abusive. Some have completely valid reasons not to. I'm not interested in debating whether Squirrelflight DESERVED punishment or what kind. Their relationship is awful at best because there is always that power imbalance. He's always been in a higher position of power over her, with the exception of them being warriors together briefly. In a normal discussion it would be perfectly reasonable to assume Bramble is toxic for demanding all sorts of permissions from Squirrelflight while needing no permissions from her. You don't need to text wall everyone telling us you disagree. We know.
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Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 16:00:18 GMT -5
No personal side in the debate but writer intention =/= how a character ends up and we know how the Erins are when writing characters the way they want the character to be perceived. Sometimes they succeed, and other times, well, they do not. Fun for discussion though.
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Post by kitters on Sept 8, 2021 16:12:41 GMT -5
No personal side in the debate but writer intention =/= how a character ends up and we know how the Erins are when writing characters the way they want the character to be perceived. Sometimes they succeed, and other times, well, they do not. Fun for discussion though. yes, this is also true. What Kate says may be different from how Cherith feels, and how Cherith feels could be different from the ghost-writers intentions. We have no idea how many people are actually writing these books, everyone's intentions clash together to make one big cluster****. thats probably why these debates are so annoying.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 16:18:06 GMT -5
I'm really excited to see who the next couple to choose from will be.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 8, 2021 17:34:14 GMT -5
No offense, but I respectfully disagree. Squirrelflight snuck out of camp like a naïve apprentice, despite being an aged warrior, and went directly against Bramblestar's orders. She even got their own daughter to lie for her, and got captured, and another leader hurt. Her being punished and not allowed to leave camp for a while is fair imo. She broke the rules, she was reprimanded. I don't see how that's abusive. She also once again went behind Bramble's back by allowing the Sisters into their camp, without even asking Bramble for permission first. Bringing hostile cats, that had previously held her captive and wounded a clan leader, into the heart of their camp. Not only were the Sisters a bunch of troublemakers that started fights with clan cats, Bramblestar very much had even more of a reason not to trust or help them. Is it morally debatable? Sure, but from a leader's perspective his choice makes sense. He was putting his clan's safety first, and was being cautious, especially because of Squirrelflight getting them into that mess in the first place. Squirrelflight was acting on her own, making decisions she had no business making, if anything she could have, and should have, been demoted for her behavior. Even if it were a different cat, they would have been reprimanded all the same, Squirrelflight being his mate is no excuse for her behavior, and not a pass so she can get away with going against orders. Prior to that Bramblestar was perfectly fine with her, level headed, and wanting to compromise, and even expressing that that should talk things out in private first, not her undermining him in front of other leaders. He was quite respectful and trusting of her, but she did not return that said respect and trust and acted on her own. At the end of the day, Bramblestar is leader, and her leader, and she is his deputy, their clan comes first. Squirrelflight had responsibility as a deputy, and chose to break the rules, and break the trust between a leader and a deputy. If people want to accuse Bramble of having abusive tendencies, then do they actually just expect him to instead just let Squirrelflight get away with everything she did just because they're mates? Do they expect him not to punish her because of bias? Do they expect him to be overjoyed that she lied to him, undermined him, and went behind his back? Like genuinely I want to know at this point. I'm mostly just curious why you feel the need to quote and text wall everyone who disagrees with you. All I said is that people seeing abusive traits in Bramble isn't a "trash take" or w/e. Both are fine. Both characters have toxic tendencies it doesn't necessarily make them canonically abusive or canonically not abusive. It's unclear. The books are a mess. Some people have completely valid reason to see Bramble as abusive. Some have completely valid reasons not to. I'm not interested in debating whether Squirrelflight DESERVED punishment or what kind. Their relationship is awful at best because there is always that power imbalance. He's always been in a higher position of power over her, with the exception of them being warriors together briefly. In a normal discussion it would be perfectly reasonable to assume Bramble is toxic for demanding all sorts of permissions from Squirrelflight while needing no permissions from her. You don't need to text wall everyone telling us you disagree. We know. I'm sorry, but am I not allow to express my thoughts to other people's thoughts on a discussion thread? This is a "subject vs subject" debate thread after all, and I'm simply replying my side of the discussion like anyone else on this thread too. If my "quotes and text walls" bother you, you could always just ignore my replies, and I also said "No offense, but I respectfully disagree." to make my intentions clear, but I guess that didn't work? The reason why I'm so expressive is because I prefer to be as clear as possible when replying on the forums, especially on the internet in general, because in the past people have blatantly and openly misinterpreted things I said, and take offense over the smallest comments, especially on threads like this. So again, I'm sorry if I've offended you in some way? Also, I think you're misinterpreting specifically what I'm saying here. Quite literally I said if people want to see Bramblestar in a certain perspective, they can, that's their own perspective, everyone has that. But to claim something that isn't actually a thing in canon, imo is a trash take. Someone claiming Bramblestar abuses and cheats on Squirrelflight canonly is nonsensical, because he doesn't do either of those, that is what I was saying. That's different than someone saying, "I personally find Bramblestar's behavior uncomfortable because it reminds me of abusive tendencies" vs "Bramblestar is abusive and a cheater and that's why I think he's a horrible character". Having a personal perspective on a character vs claiming something in canon that's not actually a thing, are two different things. And I made it clear in my replies that the latter makes no sense, that was my point. My issue is with people that claim Bramblestar does certain things in canon, when he's never actually has, just so it suits their arguments on the narrative.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 8, 2021 18:36:33 GMT -5
No offense, but I respectfully disagree. Squirrelflight snuck out of camp like a naïve apprentice, despite being an aged warrior, and went directly against Bramblestar's orders. She even got their own daughter to lie for her, and got captured, and another leader hurt. Her being punished and not allowed to leave camp for a while is fair imo. She broke the rules, she was reprimanded. I don't see how that's abusive. She also once again went behind Bramble's back by allowing the Sisters into their camp, without even asking Bramble for permission first. Bringing hostile cats, that had previously held her captive and wounded a clan leader, into the heart of their camp. Not only were the Sisters a bunch of troublemakers that started fights with clan cats, Bramblestar very much had even more of a reason not to trust or help them. Is it morally debatable? Sure, but from a leader's perspective his choice makes sense. He was putting his clan's safety first, and was being cautious, especially because of Squirrelflight getting them into that mess in the first place. Squirrelflight was acting on her own, making decisions she had no business making, if anything she could have, and should have, been demoted for her behavior. Even if it were a different cat, they would have been reprimanded all the same, Squirrelflight being his mate is no excuse for her behavior, and not a pass so she can get away with going against orders. Prior to that Bramblestar was perfectly fine with her, level headed, and wanting to compromise, and even expressing that that should talk things out in private first, not her undermining him in front of other leaders. He was quite respectful and trusting of her, but she did not return that said respect and trust and acted on her own. At the end of the day, Bramblestar is leader, and her leader, and she is his deputy, their clan comes first. Squirrelflight had responsibility as a deputy, and chose to break the rules, and break the trust between a leader and a deputy. If people want to accuse Bramble of having abusive tendencies, then do they actually just expect him to instead just let Squirrelflight get away with everything she did just because they're mates? Do they expect him not to punish her because of bias? Do they expect him to be overjoyed that she lied to him, undermined him, and went behind his back? Like genuinely I want to know at this point. I'm mostly just curious why you feel the need to quote and text wall everyone who disagrees with you. All I said is that people seeing abusive traits in Bramble isn't a "trash take" or w/e. Both are fine. Both characters have toxic tendencies it doesn't necessarily make them canonically abusive or canonically not abusive. It's unclear. The books are a mess. Some people have completely valid reason to see Bramble as abusive. Some have completely valid reasons not to. I'm not interested in debating whether Squirrelflight DESERVED punishment or what kind. Their relationship is awful at best because there is always that power imbalance. He's always been in a higher position of power over her, with the exception of them being warriors together briefly. In a normal discussion it would be perfectly reasonable to assume Bramble is toxic for demanding all sorts of permissions from Squirrelflight while needing no permissions from her. You don't need to text wall everyone telling us you disagree. We know. And you don't need to be rude over a fictional cat debate. This is one of the reasons why I don't like Squirrelflight. People like you act really rude to people over a disagreement. Maplefrost is allowed to share their opinion on threads. That's what warriors general is for.
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Heterosexual
#64c1a0
Name Colour
𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙
𝙼𝚘𝚘𝚛 𝚁𝚞𝚗𝚗𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚒𝚜 𝚜𝚞𝚙𝚎𝚛𝚒𝚘𝚛.
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Post by 𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙 on Sept 8, 2021 18:38:45 GMT -5
I prefer Bramblestar, but Squirrelflight is also okay.
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Post by kitters on Sept 8, 2021 18:42:38 GMT -5
I'm mostly just curious why you feel the need to quote and text wall everyone who disagrees with you. All I said is that people seeing abusive traits in Bramble isn't a "trash take" or w/e. Both are fine. Both characters have toxic tendencies it doesn't necessarily make them canonically abusive or canonically not abusive. It's unclear. The books are a mess. Some people have completely valid reason to see Bramble as abusive. Some have completely valid reasons not to. I'm not interested in debating whether Squirrelflight DESERVED punishment or what kind. Their relationship is awful at best because there is always that power imbalance. He's always been in a higher position of power over her, with the exception of them being warriors together briefly. In a normal discussion it would be perfectly reasonable to assume Bramble is toxic for demanding all sorts of permissions from Squirrelflight while needing no permissions from her. You don't need to text wall everyone telling us you disagree. We know. And you don't need to be rude over a fictional cat debate. This is one of the reasons why I don't like Squirrelflight. People like you act really rude to people over a disagreement. Maplefrost is allowed to share their opinion on threads. That's what warriors general is for. I wasn't trying to be rude at all. They were the ones calling people's opinions "horrible takes" and being aggressive in the replies. omg.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 8, 2021 18:45:24 GMT -5
And you don't need to be rude over a fictional cat debate. This is one of the reasons why I don't like Squirrelflight. People like you act really rude to people over a disagreement. Maplefrost is allowed to share their opinion on threads. That's what warriors general is for. I wasn't trying to be rude at all. They were the ones calling people's opinions "horrible takes" and being aggressive in the replies. omg. They're not being aggressive, and I'm frankly tired of everyone on here misinterpreting Maplefrost's tones. They're just a normal person sharing their opinion. They literally said "I respectfully disagree". That is NOT aggressive behavior.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 8, 2021 18:48:04 GMT -5
And you don't need to be rude over a fictional cat debate. This is one of the reasons why I don't like Squirrelflight. People like you act really rude to people over a disagreement. Maplefrost is allowed to share their opinion on threads. That's what warriors general is for. I wasn't trying to be rude at all. They were the ones calling people's opinions "horrible takes" and being aggressive in the replies. omg. I was talking about a specific claim that in my opinion is a horrible take on a debate thread. Not attacking people about how they write, I fail to see how I was "being aggressive", and honestly what you said came out of left field and kinda rude...I don't know how much more clear you want me to be when I said "no offense but I respectfully disagree".
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Post by kitters on Sept 8, 2021 18:53:18 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to be rude at all. They were the ones calling people's opinions "horrible takes" and being aggressive in the replies. omg. They're not being aggressive, and I'm frankly tired of everyone on here misinterpreting Maplefrost's tones. They're just a normal person sharing their opinion. They literally said "I respectfully disagree". That is NOT aggressive behavior. sorry you dont like how i interpret another persons post but man. i dont care. oh look now im being rude lol
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Heterosexual
#64c1a0
Name Colour
𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙
𝙼𝚘𝚘𝚛 𝚁𝚞𝚗𝚗𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚒𝚜 𝚜𝚞𝚙𝚎𝚛𝚒𝚘𝚛.
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Post by 𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙 on Sept 8, 2021 18:55:34 GMT -5
Let’s all just calm down bit.
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Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 18:59:37 GMT -5
Ironically an argument spiraling from talking about Bramble and Squirrel is still more palatable than an actual argument between the two.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 8, 2021 19:10:22 GMT -5
They're not being aggressive, and I'm frankly tired of everyone on here misinterpreting Maplefrost's tones. They're just a normal person sharing their opinion. They literally said "I respectfully disagree". That is NOT aggressive behavior. sorry you dont like how i interpret another persons post but man. i dont care. oh look now im being rude lol You've upset my friend and that's why I'm angry at you about this. Now you're just making things worse by adding these unnecessary comments on purpose. All you had to do was respect their opinion. You didn't need to say they were "aggressive" when it's obvious that they weren't trying to be.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 8, 2021 19:10:37 GMT -5
I don't want this thread getting locked, so I'm going to try and be more clear. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, I wasn't trying to be aggressive, and if I write "wall texts" I'm in no way trying to attack anyone. I'm just trying to express my opinions as clear as possible to avoid situations like this where my words and tone are misinterpreted because of past issues I've had to deal with on the forums in general. My gripe on the subject comes down and simplifies to; "People claiming something is canon when it's not." and that going hand in hand with "People are free to have their own perspective and views on things." It's based on my other points I made previously as well; People are allowed to have their own perspectives on things, and how they interpret something, no one is saying they can't. But to claim something in canon, as I've already stated, is different, especially on a debate thread. It's like saying "This apple is an orange to me in my perspective." that's fine you're free to have that perspective, but factually that is still an apple. It doesn't mean your opinion and perspective are invalid, no, you're free to have it, but at the end of the day, it's still an apple, not an orange. And again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, it's ironic I have to say that, but that's not my intention at all, I'm just trying to be as blunt about this as possible now to leave out room for misinterpretation. If people personally see Bramblestar's behavior as abusive from their own perspective, that's fine. My issue is when people claim that he is indeed canonly abusive to Squirrelflight for reprimanding her, or he cheated on her in canon because of his romantic implications with Jessy. When neither is true. The main reason why Bramblestar gets accused of either of those in general is because he reprimanded Squirrelflight, and because he showed romantic interest in Jessy, so it makes sense that they're points brought up in the debate about it when being discussed. Not because I was trying to be aggressive. Note: Sorry if this turned out to be a wall text as well, again, I'm just trying to be as clear about this once again.
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Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 19:43:11 GMT -5
From what I can see it was a simple moment of misinterpretation on someone’s part about another person’s words. That happens a lot on the Internet no matter how many words you type up to explain yourself, so I’d suggest not worrying about it. Most people seemed to have understood what you were saying.
From: Though it is appreciative that you still felt the need to clarify the matter.
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Post by mintedstar/fur on Sept 8, 2021 21:24:52 GMT -5
Coolo. I would say that people have cleared things up about how they meant things to sound and such. If it wasn't, you're welcome to PM me on the matter. <3 Otherwise, I think this point has been taken care of.
(Edit: To be clear, the discussion on Authorial Intent is fine. I request to move on from the discussion on people's tone, however.)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 9, 2021 7:42:41 GMT -5
There's a reason why I made this into a poll. And I was going to wait until Friday and make this a weekly thing, but forget that! Also, just to say my piece, sorethroat does have a point. There's a saying that I really like, and it's "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." I know I've definitely lost count of how many times a writer or producer have put something to page or screen, only for it to come out the wrong way (hello, YA genre!). Point is, a creator's word isn't everything (hello, Vicky!), but if we really want to bring Kate into this, then I do want to point out that there's also this: Yes, Kate says she thinks he was just having a hard time balancing his duties between that of a leader and that of a mate, but I think the fact that she acknowledges his behavior at all should probably say something. I also think it's important to not dismiss these abuse claims, as it just comes off as insensitive and at least from what I've seen, alot of the time, it's coming from people who have also been victims. Everyone overreacts now and then and I'm not saying you have to agree with these people, but I do think it's just something worth considering. Also, that video came out more than a year after SqH was published (book came out in September 2019, video in October 2020), more than enough time for most people to form their own opinions on the subject, at least those in the older side of the fandom. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of Moonkitti or any other popular content creator, but just because it's been used as a reference doesn't necessarily mean anything, either. If people want to check out the quotes themselves without watching such a long video however, I actually made a thread last year in July compiling most if not all of Bramblestar and Squirrelflight's disagreements in the book, so feel free to look through it here and form your own opinion. Just a warning though, it's alot and you may end up getting a splitting headache afterwards. Bramblestar being a cheater though, yeah, that's just factually incorrect and can actually be proven without a doubt within the text. This is the second or third time I've seen that claim and I really don't get where it comes from. He and Squirrelflight weren't even together when he was padding after Jessy and he's allowed to move on if he wants to (and they both should've). ANYWAY, glad things were able to calm down, so let's move on, shall we? I already had the next one in mind, but I think this calls for something a little more wholesome. I'll just move the one I had planned for next time. So, next one! Brackenfur vs. Sorreltail!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 9, 2021 8:10:01 GMT -5
There's a reason why I made this into a poll. And I was going to wait until Friday and make this a weekly thing, but forget that! Also, just to say my piece, sorethroat does have a point. There's a saying that I really like, and it's "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." I know I've definitely lost count of how many times a writer or producer have put something to page or screen, only for it to come out the wrong way (hello, YA genre!). Point is, a creator's word isn't everything (hello, Vicky!), but if we really want to bring Kate into this, then I do want to point out that there's also this: Yes, Kate says she thinks he was just having a hard time balancing his duties between that of a leader and that of a mate, but I think the fact that she acknowledges his behavior at all should probably say something. I also think it's important to not dismiss these abuse claims, as it just comes off as insensitive and at least from what I've seen, alot of the time, it's coming from people who have also been victims. Everyone overreacts now and then and I'm not saying you have to agree with these people, but I do think it's just something worth considering. Also, that video came out more than a year after SqH was published (book came out in September 2019, video in October 2020), more than enough time for most people to form their own opinions on the subject, at least those in the older side of the fandom. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of Moonkitti or any other popular content creator, but just because it's been used as a reference doesn't necessarily mean anything, either. If people want to check out the quotes themselves without watching such a long video however, I actually made a thread last year in July compiling most if not all of Bramblestar and Squirrelflight's disagreements in the book, so feel free to look through it here and form your own opinion. Just a warning though, it's alot and you may end up getting a splitting headache afterwards. Bramblestar being a cheater though, yeah, that's just factually incorrect and can actually be proven without a doubt within the text. This is the second or third time I've seen that claim and I really don't get where it comes from. He and Squirrelflight weren't even together when he was padding after Jessy and he's allowed to move on if he wants to (and they both should've). I wanna address a bit in this, no offense, and I'm trying to be very genuine about this. Anything further I'll probably just address in DM's, I don't want anymore misinterpretations and I just want to clarify things. Note: Again, sorry for the wall text, you can ignore this if it's too much.
The thing is that Kate is only really acknowledging Bramblestar's behavior because it was brought up by fans before, since this is after the first screenshot I showed. Yes the argument can be made that he wasn't pleasant, punishment isn't supposed to be pleasant, but when claiming it's canonly abuse, I feel that's a completely different field on it's own. Especially when if this is supposedly "abuse" then any authoritative figure reprimanding a lower rank would fall under that as well. That's where many people have issues with this type of claim. Like, I genuinely did ask how people expected Bramble to react, or be toward Squirrel's behavior, because it truly does baffle me. I have yet to get an answer over it as well. Is it only abusive because they're mates? If that's the case then should Squirrel have been excused for what she did because they're mates? Does that make sense? No offense, but the logic of the claims always comes off as "strange" to some.
As for the "insensitive" part, I've already said on the forums before, on this matter exactly, that some people that disagree with the abuse claims can also be victims of abuse themselves, such as myself. And to us it feels insensitive that the claim is being made against canon, because it feels like the word is being frivolously thrown around, compared to actual situations where the intent and display of the relationship actually is abusive. I understand if people personally feel uncomfortable with Bramble's behavior, and believe that he has "abusive tendencies" but it was never the author's intention, and we don't see it as abusive in canon either. A leader punishing his deputy for breaking the rules, and lying to him is normal. And Squirrelflight being his mate shouldn't mean that she should be excused, nor does it mean Bramble is controlling. I personally, and honestly think that because it was from Squirrelflight's POV that to those that empathize with her, I can see them making that conclusion. But to some that look at it from Bramble's POV, or a general one instead, she is still in the wrong for her actions.
Despite the video also coming out about a year later after the release it was only after the video that there was a surge in the "Bramble is abusive" rhetoric, and it was because of Moonkitti's video. The thing is is that the majority of WC fans aren't on these forums, they are are on other platforms like Youtube, Tumblr and Twitter, which has a much broader range of influence on the fans. Back when this whole debacle started it caused endless debate threads over the subject, and to this day it's still a hot debate, but prior to that it wasn't as prominent. Yes a year is plenty of time for people to form their own opinions, but it doesn't mean that opinions aren't swayed and changed after absorbing a new media and perspective based on others. Moonkitti themselves even came onto the forums at one point to clarify their intent and openly admitted their perspective in that video. The video was the center of debates before the actual notion of "Bramble being abusive" ever came up on the forums. There were a few threads here and there about the overall book and dislike of BrambleSquirrel's behavior, but never really strongly debated "abuse claims". Which is why the video is referenced at all because of all the trouble it caused once it was released.
I think tl;dr, my point is that we acknowledge if people see Bramble's behavior as abusive, in their own perspective, and we're not dismissing that in the least. But to try and claim it and treat it as a canon fact is another thing. Because if we consider him reprimanding his deputy as abusive, then that logic would be applied to literally any other scenario where a higher up reprimands a lower rank. And if that's not the case, then should Bramble have excused her behavior simply because they were mates? Despite her lying and acting on her own behind his back? I'm just not exactly sure what people expect him to do in that situation. Bramblestar was acting as a leader first and foremost and a mate second, but that doesn't mean he didn't care about Squirrelflight, or he was some monster that maliciously was trying to abuse her with horrible intent like some fans try to make him out to be. She put him in a tough spot and he had to make the right choice.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 9, 2021 8:12:06 GMT -5
As for the new poll question, I suppose I'll go with Brackenfur, I can't really recall much of Sorreltail except for when she was poisoned and when she died in DwS.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Sept 9, 2021 8:18:54 GMT -5
I like Sorreltail better, mainly due to her friendship with Leafpool.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 9, 2021 9:09:17 GMT -5
fandoms in general like to play fast and loose with the term “canon”, often subbing it for “personal interpretation which makes the most sense to me”
brackenfur because he is a sweetie pie who doesnt get into trouble
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Post by Rainfire on Sept 9, 2021 10:11:31 GMT -5
They're both awesome, but I prefer Brackenfur! He's my favorite ThunderClan background character.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Sept 9, 2021 10:32:21 GMT -5
Sorry I love sorreltail, so im going with her. Brackenfur is nice though.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 9, 2021 10:53:32 GMT -5
I like both characters, but my vote is going to go to Brackenfur as he's my favorite character in ThunderClan, and my third favorite character over all.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 9, 2021 11:57:12 GMT -5
I like both about equally, but I'll go with Brackenfur
I do think the fact Sorreltail knew she was dying but wanted to spend her last moments with her kits was heartbreaking though
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Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Sept 9, 2021 12:35:31 GMT -5
I’m annoyed that Sorreltail was killed off the way she was but I have to vote her because I liked her the most out of the couple with her friendship with Leafpool.
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