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Post by Aqua on Aug 20, 2021 17:53:50 GMT -5
What do you think? Has he been a good mate to her?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Aug 21, 2021 2:09:27 GMT -5
I think that whole situation was a disaster of miscommunication, leading on, and awkwardness. I don't think it's fair to judge Bumblestripe as a mate considering there were no feelings there from the start
When she finally was honest about moving on with Tigerheart, he was respectful though
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Aug 21, 2021 2:45:23 GMT -5
It was probably best they ended things
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Post by Rainsplash on Aug 21, 2021 4:49:44 GMT -5
Not really
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Aug 21, 2021 7:00:04 GMT -5
No. He pressured her to have kits, butts in on a lot of what she does, and has shown bitterness towards Dovewing when she chose Tigerheart.
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Post by crowspirit on Aug 21, 2021 7:57:14 GMT -5
Well, he wasn't respectful to her in the Shattered Sky bonus scene, but other than that, he's fine. He's no Thrushpelt, but no Ashfur either.
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Post by cygna on Aug 21, 2021 9:55:34 GMT -5
He was better to her than what she deserved imo. He was actually pretty nice even when she came back with Tigerfart's kits even if a traitor deserves zero respect from her former clan mates.
Btw he didn't "pressure" her to have his kits, he just asked her at at terribly inapropriate time. My answer would be yes. If anyone was disrespectful in that situation it was DoveTiger.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 21, 2021 10:11:22 GMT -5
There was only one scene of him asking if she’d give their relationship and kits a consideration at a bad time, but beyond that, he’s not nearly as bad and nasty to her as she was to him. The way she constantly compared him to Tigerheart was kind of really gross and he was waaaaaay kinder to her than she deserved when she waltzed into Thunderclan with the Shadowclan leader’s kits. He was actually pretty dang respectful of her choosing Tigerheart, but he has no obligation to be kind to a traitor and enemy clan leader so. Yeah. I think he gets waaaay too much hate personally.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Aug 21, 2021 13:46:04 GMT -5
No. He pressured her to have kits, butts in on a lot of what she does, and has shown bitterness towards Dovewing when she chose Tigerheart. He wasn't bitter? He was very respectful of her choice. He's allowed to be disappointed, but he wasn't bitter at her at all
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 21, 2021 17:16:16 GMT -5
I'd say it's a mixed bag. The way he treated Dovewing was basically somewhere in between Ashfur and Thrushpelt (but closer to Thrushpelt.)
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Post by Aqua on Aug 21, 2021 18:08:55 GMT -5
I'd say it's a mixed bag. The way he treated Dovewing was basically somewhere in between Ashfur and Thrushpelt (but closer to Thrushpelt.) Bumblestripe isn't anything like Ashfur, just very inappropriate. This is coming from someone who doesn't even like Bumble. He'd never hurt Dovewing. Ashfur and Bumblestripe aren't comparable at all.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 21, 2021 18:34:39 GMT -5
Honestly, if anything he's just a love-sick puppy who doesn't know how to handle certain situations better, but it's definitely not with malicious or possessive intent like Ashfur ever was. I'll never understand that comparison. Not to mention, Bumblestripe's behavior around Dovewing was like walking on eggshells, even annoying her in the slightest got him being compared to Tigerheart, or her snapping at him unnecessarily. Imo he should have just given up on her after the gathering scene, she wasn't worth it. While Dovewing should have just rejected him earlier, instead of using him like a scratching post while she was aware of his feelings. Honestly, that didn't put her in the best light, because it made it look like she was only being horrible to him just because he had feelings for her, hence the "You're not the cat I thought you were" comment. Also, even in the bonus chapter, Dove's wishy washy behavior didn't help. First she doesn't even acknowledge him, then gets angry at him when he tries to check up on her, then for a moment she's all lovey dovey and fleeting but feels guilty. Guilty because she knows they need to talk and she needs to reject him properly, but when ever the convo got to that point, she'd quickly avoid it, and him in general. And then the moment he helps her while hunting she's back at it again with the snapping, and comparing him to Tigerheart. Like...it's obvious Bumblestripe WANTS to communicate with her. He even tries to talk to her several times through out their relationship, but she always tries to avoid the elephant in the room and it made their interactions annoying.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Aug 22, 2021 4:40:41 GMT -5
I think he's fine, but he was kinda disrespectful in the bonus scene. Asking her to consider having his kits while they're not even together and she's grieving was kinda disrespectful.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 22, 2021 11:32:55 GMT -5
I think he's fine, but he was kinda disrespectful in the bonus scene. Asking her to consider having his kits while they're not even together and she's grieving was kinda disrespectful. I think it's weird people defend this because Dovewing has bad commutation skills. I get that she does, but... it's still weird that he asked for kits years after they've broken up? Like, in the scene, I thought Dovewing saying "I will not have kits for Darktail!" made it perfectly clear she was saying no to Bumblestripe, it's just that he wasn't respectful about it. I'll always defend Dovewing in this scene. She wasn't that bad and made it perfectly clear she told him no. This scene alone is what made me dislike Bumblestripe though. You really shouldn't ask for someone's babies after they broke up with you. 8/ Come on. I'll never understand how this behavior from Bumblestripe is defended so much.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Aug 22, 2021 11:59:37 GMT -5
I think he's fine, but he was kinda disrespectful in the bonus scene. Asking her to consider having his kits while they're not even together and she's grieving was kinda disrespectful. I think it's weird people defend this because Dovewing has bad commutation skills. I get that she does, but... it's still weird that he asked for kits years after they've broken up? Like, in the scene, I thought Dovewing saying "I will not have kits for Darktail!" made it perfectly clear she was saying no to Bumblestripe, it's just that he wasn't respectful about it. I'll always defend Dovewing in this scene. She wasn't that bad and made it perfectly clear she told him no. This scene alone is what made me dislike Bumblestripe though. You really shouldn't ask for someone's babies after they broke up with you. 8/ Come on. I'll never understand how this behavior from Bumblestripe is defended so much. And the worst part is that he wasn't even referring to trying again in a relationship, he straight-up mentioned he wanted to try out for kits. Like even Dovewing was right, why would they have kits in such a bad time.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 22, 2021 12:10:36 GMT -5
I think he's fine, but he was kinda disrespectful in the bonus scene. Asking her to consider having his kits while they're not even together and she's grieving was kinda disrespectful. I think it's weird people defend this because Dovewing has bad commutation skills. I get that she does, but... it's still weird that he asked for kits years after they've broken up? Like, in the scene, I thought Dovewing saying "I will not have kits for Darktail!" made it perfectly clear she was saying no to Bumblestripe, it's just that he wasn't respectful about it. I'll always defend Dovewing in this scene. She wasn't that bad and made it perfectly clear she told him no. This scene alone is what made me dislike Bumblestripe though. You really shouldn't ask for someone's babies after they broke up with you. 8/ Come on. I'll never understand how this behavior from Bumblestripe is defended so much. It's not uncommon though? People have gotten back together before in relationships and have tried again, and sometimes even have children to help change the dynamic of the relationship, hopefully for a more positive direction. Quite literally....Tiger and Dove got back together after the millionth time and had kits on top of that. Also I don't see how he was being disrespectful. He was genuinely asking Dovewing if they could try again with a family, thinking it would help their relationship "heal". Because from his perspective, she dumped him with no reason, but in reality it's only because she was using him for convenience. He wasn't asking her to just have kits because of Darktail, he was actually talking about how life was short, he didn't want to have any regrets, and wanted to bring new life in the wake of death. He also brung up how amazing she was with Seedpaw and how happy she seemed, and he commented that she'd be a great mother, he thought that kits would genuinely make her happy again. Relationships are complicating, and this is just another example of that. The problem is that people villainize Bumblestripe, despite him literally asking her think about it, or consider it, and then leaving her to give her space. And even prior to the whole situation with Purdy passing, he was obviously trying to talk about their relationship and communicate with her but she quickly cut him off and left. Heck, she went on the patrol to find Twigpaw just to avoid him and be with Tigerheart. Being inappropriate vs disrespectful, are two different things. Bumblestripe was trying to be so respectful to her that he was practically walking on eggshells. The irony about this is that it wasn't even that she didn't want kits, she just didn't want kits with him, lol.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 22, 2021 12:41:53 GMT -5
I think it's weird people defend this because Dovewing has bad commutation skills. I get that she does, but... it's still weird that he asked for kits years after they've broken up? Like, in the scene, I thought Dovewing saying "I will not have kits for Darktail!" made it perfectly clear she was saying no to Bumblestripe, it's just that he wasn't respectful about it. I'll always defend Dovewing in this scene. She wasn't that bad and made it perfectly clear she told him no. This scene alone is what made me dislike Bumblestripe though. You really shouldn't ask for someone's babies after they broke up with you. 8/ Come on. I'll never understand how this behavior from Bumblestripe is defended so much. It's not uncommon though? People have gotten back together before in relationships and have tried again, and sometimes even have children to help change the dynamic of the relationship, hopefully for a more positive direction. Quite literally....Tiger and Dove got back together after the millionth time and had kits on top of that. Also I don't see how he was being disrespectful. He was genuinely asking Dovewing if they could try again with a family, thinking it would help their relationship "heal". Because from his perspective, she dumped him with no reason, but in reality it's only because she was using him for convenience. He wasn't asking her to just have kits because of Darktail, he was actually talking about how life was short, he didn't want to have any regrets, and wanted to bring new life in the wake of death. He also brung up how amazing she was with Seedpaw and how happy she seemed, and he commented that she'd be a great mother, he thought that kits would genuinely make her happy again. Relationships are complicating, and this is just another example of that. The problem is that people villainize Bumblestripe, despite him literally asking her think about it, or consider it, and then leaving her to give her space. And even prior to the whole situation with Purdy passing, he was obviously trying to talk about their relationship and communicate with her but she quickly cut him off and left. Heck, she went on the patrol to find Twigpaw just to avoid him and be with Tigerheart. Being inappropriate vs disrespectful, are two different things. Bumblestripe was trying to be so respectful to her that he was practically walking on eggshells. The irony about this is that it wasn't even that she didn't want kits, she just didn't want kits with him, lol. No. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's inappropriate of Bumblestripe to ask Dovewing to have kits with him but they're ALREADY broken up. Years ago. That's what's creepy about this situation. There's nothing in the books that says he was trying to mend their relationship back together; he simply just wanted to have kits with her, that was it, and she was still grieving over Purdy's death. Dovewing made it perfectly clear. She told him she didn't want to have kits with him so Darktail could have fresh, helpless victims. She didn't want to deal with more grief after losing many cats from her clan, she was clearly unhappy with the situation thanks to Darktail, and instead of comforting her Bumblestripe asks something that he wants for her. If he really wanted to mend the relationship for both of them, he should have been respectful in that moment and left her alone. Instead he continued to bother her about it, which drove Dovewing further away from him, and I really don't blame her. And she's allowed to not want kits with him if she doesn't want to. Dovewing should be allowed to say no. Dovewing and Bumblestripe never truly understood each other, Bumblestripe wanted things from her, and Dovewing communicated badly with him. But that doesn't mean she can't say no to him, that doesn't mean she has to have kits with him. Bumblestripe should have left her alone after she broke up with him. Period. And he didn't.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Aug 22, 2021 12:49:16 GMT -5
It's not uncommon though? People have gotten back together before in relationships and have tried again, and sometimes even have children to help change the dynamic of the relationship, hopefully for a more positive direction. Quite literally....Tiger and Dove got back together after the millionth time and had kits on top of that. Also I don't see how he was being disrespectful. He was genuinely asking Dovewing if they could try again with a family, thinking it would help their relationship "heal". Because from his perspective, she dumped him with no reason, but in reality it's only because she was using him for convenience. He wasn't asking her to just have kits because of Darktail, he was actually talking about how life was short, he didn't want to have any regrets, and wanted to bring new life in the wake of death. He also brung up how amazing she was with Seedpaw and how happy she seemed, and he commented that she'd be a great mother, he thought that kits would genuinely make her happy again. Relationships are complicating, and this is just another example of that. The problem is that people villainize Bumblestripe, despite him literally asking her think about it, or consider it, and then leaving her to give her space. And even prior to the whole situation with Purdy passing, he was obviously trying to talk about their relationship and communicate with her but she quickly cut him off and left. Heck, she went on the patrol to find Twigpaw just to avoid him and be with Tigerheart. Being inappropriate vs disrespectful, are two different things. Bumblestripe was trying to be so respectful to her that he was practically walking on eggshells. The irony about this is that it wasn't even that she didn't want kits, she just didn't want kits with him, lol. No. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's inappropriate of Bumblestripe to ask Dovewing to have kits with him but they're ALREADY broken up. Years ago. That's what's creepy about this situation. There's nothing in the books that says he was trying to mend their relationship back together; he simply just wanted to have kits with her, that was it, and she was still grieving over Purdy's death. Dovewing made it perfectly clear. She told him she didn't want to have kits with him so Darktail could have fresh, helpless victims. She didn't want to deal with more grief after losing many cats from her clan, she was clearly unhappy with the situation thanks to Darktail, and instead of comforting her Bumblestripe asks something that he wants for her. If he really wanted to mend the relationship for both of them, he should have been respectful in that moment and left her alone. Instead he continued to bother her about it, which drove Dovewing further away from him, and I really don't blame her. And she's allowed to not want kits with him if she doesn't want to. Dovewing should be allowed to say yes. Dovewing and Bumblestripe never truly understood each other, Bumblestripe wanted things from her, and Dovewing communicated badly with him. But that doesn't mean she can't say no to him, that doesn't mean she has to have kits with him. Bumblestripe should have left her alone after she broke up with him. Period. And he didn't. Instead of going into having kits first, they should try to have some time to get to know eachother a lot better again, clear misunderstandings/issues, and let the situation with Darktail calm down. In fact... if both tried out again and tried to "fix" their problems just by having kits, it risks the "healing" not going that well and the kit being born in an unhealthy environment of parents who may break up at any moment. It's way better they spend time healing than just going straight to it.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 22, 2021 12:57:14 GMT -5
No. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's inappropriate of Bumblestripe to ask Dovewing to have kits with him but they're ALREADY broken up. Years ago. That's what's creepy about this situation. There's nothing in the books that says he was trying to mend their relationship back together; he simply just wanted to have kits with her, that was it, and she was still grieving over Purdy's death. Dovewing made it perfectly clear. She told him she didn't want to have kits with him so Darktail could have fresh, helpless victims. She didn't want to deal with more grief after losing many cats from her clan, she was clearly unhappy with the situation thanks to Darktail, and instead of comforting her Bumblestripe asks something that he wants for her. If he really wanted to mend the relationship for both of them, he should have been respectful in that moment and left her alone. Instead he continued to bother her about it, which drove Dovewing further away from him, and I really don't blame her. And she's allowed to not want kits with him if she doesn't want to. Dovewing should be allowed to say yes. Dovewing and Bumblestripe never truly understood each other, Bumblestripe wanted things from her, and Dovewing communicated badly with him. But that doesn't mean she can't say no to him, that doesn't mean she has to have kits with him. Bumblestripe should have left her alone after she broke up with him. Period. And he didn't. Instead of going into having kits first, they should try to have some time to get to know eachother a lot better again, clear misunderstandings/issues, and let the situation with Darktail calm down. In fact... if both tried out again and tried to "fix" their problems just by having kits, it risks the "healing" not going that well and the kit being born in an unhealthy environment of parents who may break up at any moment. It's way better they spend time healing than just going straight to it. I agree, it probably would've helped them communicate and understand each other better too. This should have happened from the beginning. I don't really like relationships myself, but I feel like you need to understand the person completely before going into that commitment for life. Dovewing and Bumblestripe didn't do this for each other at all. Sure, Dove was mean to him a few times and I'm sorry she hurt his feelings, but at the same time he really didn't respect her either. Bumble got into her business often, and while it may have been caring and sweet to some, to Dove, she didn't want him to be involved in that, she wanted things figured out herself, she wanted space from him often and that was fine. What Dove should have done was ask him politely to leave him alone but she handled that poorly by snapping at him. Bumble asked for her kits, vaguely hinting it out more than once, and that offer made her uncomfortable. First she hinted it with her own body language, second she made it clear with him by saying no. Bumble didn't leave her alone, because it was something HE wanted from her, but in a relationship you have to come to an agreement, and it's unfair for people to get pissed at Dove and call her a bad mate because she doesn't want to please Bumble. If people wanna hate Dovewing for how she treated Bumblestripe, hate her for using him to get over Tigerheart. But shipping at him, and saying no to him about his offer for kits, really isn't one of her worst crimes. That's just bad communication right there, but if people are gonna complain about how she doesn't respect Bumblestripe's feelings, I feel like they should acknowledge that he didn't respect hers either. He was weird around her a lot, and I don't really blame her for breaking up with him, even if she handled it very badly. My biggest disappointment about these two is that they didn't try to get to know each other and that's how it fell out. Bad communication and BOTH of them not understanding what each cat wants from each other. You need to come to a mural understanding when it comes to relationships, and this one wasn't doing a very good job at that, hence why it fell apart. Neither cat respected each other from the start, and in the end, instead of supporting Dove, he got pissed at her for following her heart, lol. Granted, I understand why Bumble got mad at her because she betrayed her clan, but if he truly loved her he would understand her reasons why she left him and her clan, not feel bitter against what she did. I don't think Bumble loved her either, tbh. He cared about her, but not enough to respect her, while Dove obviously didn't like him at all and only became his mate out of peer pressure from her clan.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 22, 2021 19:24:32 GMT -5
Isn't that literally what he was trying to do though? Mend their relationship? He only mentioned the kits one time, and before that he was trying to spend more time with her again, and she was trying to avoid him. People make it out to seem like that's all he wanted her for, kits, or that he was constantly badgering her for kits, or pressuring her for them, which isn't the case in the least. The only reason he even started bringing up the kits was because he recalled how happy she seemed with Seedpaw, he thought kits would help their relationship and make her happy, so he asked her to at least consider it. I fail to see how it's creepy when they used to be the equivalent of married. They used to date, they used to be together, they used to be in a binding relationship as partners, and talked about kits before. As I already said, divorced couples have gotten back together again and even have children. It is not an uncommon thing that happens in relationships and has quite literally happened in Warriors. And Bumblestripe DID try to get to know Dovewing, on several occasions. But it was Dovewing who was either distant (because she had Tigerheart on the mind) or snapping out him unnecessarily. Dovewing never gave him a chance from the start, and even when they were mates, she still never even considered him romantically, just a convenience. Was it inappropriate for him to try and ask her if they can try again after Purdy's death? Yes. Does that make him a horrible person, that only wants kits out of Dovewing, and he doesn't care about how she feels? No. He very clearly does care about her feelings, and tries to be respectful around her, and genuinely did love her, but again, from her POV, he'll never be good enough for her because he's not Tigerheart.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Aug 22, 2021 19:57:49 GMT -5
In a word, no.
The relationship was toxic on all fronts. Dovewing's toxicity does not absolve Bumblestripe of his. Thrushpelt and Ashfur are the two extremes of the partner spectrum. It does no good to compare others to them. Bumblestripe and Dovewing are nowhere near as bad as Ashfur, but that doesn't excuse their actions. I'm going to bold and capitalize my next point, because it needs to be shouted from the rooftops.
YOU CAN BE BOTH A VICTIM AND A PERPETRATOR.
Every single time a toxic relationship is discussed on this forum, without fail, I see people pinning the blame on one cat in situations where both are clearly at fault. BramblexSquirrel and CrowxNight are the worst examples of this. Point is, both Dovewing and Bumblestripe are at fault.
Dovewing's crimes are not being upfront with Bumblestripe at the start and later using him to get over Tigerheart. She wasn't attracted to him in the slightest and should have just told him. There was no reason to believe he would have a particularly negative reaction at this point. Snapping at him was the wrong move. Bumblestripe's reaction was understandable. I respect that she was uncomfortable with his advances, but they were pretty mild and run of the mill at this point. A simple no would have sufficed. Once she broke it off the first time, they never should have gotten back to together. It was not fair to Bumblestripe at all. There was no attraction from the start and there never would be. Leading him on did nothing to help either of them.
Now before I get to Bumblestripe's crimes, I need to stop for moment and rant. Can we please stop treating Dovewing like she's Satan? Saying Bumblestripe is more then she deserves is incredibly harsh. She is not a monster. She was a young cat who lacked communication skills. Bumblestripe was guilty of the same thing. And yet he gets a free pass on his behavior. These double standards are actually dangerous. It's clear that people's bias against Dovewing is influencing how they view this relationship. Obviously you are entitled to your opinions on her.
That said, we really need to be careful how we discuss relationships on this forum. Yes we are discussing fictional characters, but books represent the real world. Many people have experienced similar situations. When someone is going harshly after a character in a relationship just because they don't like them, and not because pf their actions in the relationship, there is the potential that a forumer in the same shoes could be harmed as a result. I myself was in a similar situation as a teenager. I didn't lead anyone on, but a boy liked me and I was oblivious to it. Things eventually turned nasty, though to a lesser degree. If I had read some of these comments then, it would have had a serious impact on my mental health. You're free to hate Dovewing if you wish, but please try to come into discussions about her relationships neutral. Before I engage in a discussion involving a character I dislike, I always take a moment to evaluate if I can be entirely fair. If I realize can't, then I don't engage in that discussion at all. I suggest others do the same.
Now, back to Bumblestripe. Let's start with what we know he did. He was passive aggressive when Dovewing didn't pick up on his cues, he invaded her privacy in a vulnerable moment, and tried to talk her into having kits after they'd already broken up. Bumblestripe made the same mistake as Dovewing. He wasn't upfront with her about his feelings. All this trouble would have been saved if he just told her that he liked her.
As for him invading her privacy, I am talking about him showing Bramblestar Dovewing's attempts at replicating her lost powers in the tunnels. It was incredibly sad to see the impact losing her powers had on her. She was born with these abilities. It was all she has ever known and to have them taken away after the Great Battle was incredibly cruel and traumatizing. Dovewing was clearly going through a sort of grieving process. She was deep in the tunnels with the clear intention of being alone. Her mate finding her is one thing, but to have her mate to show their leader such a vulnerable moment was incredibly invasive. It was none of Bramblestar's business. Dovewing was still doing her duties like any other warrior. It was a private moment that Bumblestripe had no business sharing.
Aqua and Zuma have pretty much said it all for the kit situation. Bumblestripe was not asking to start over. He was asking her to be his incubator for his kits. This is the definition of objectifying. I really hope I don't have to explain how disgusting his actions were here.
But there's more if you read between the lines. How did Rosepetal and Whitewing know Bumblestripe liked Dovewing? I don't recall it being that obvious on the first readthrough. In fact, it came straight out of left field. Dovewing seems to be rather oblivious, similar to Gray Wing in TST, so I guess it could just be her perspective. But I usually pick up on any hints and there were none this time. They seemed to be hinting towards BumblexIvy more than anything. If the readers didn't notice it, then it makes sense that the characters wouldn't either. I suspect Bumblestripe told them his feelings with the intent of having them manipulate her into a relationship. Whitewing even admitted to talking with him. But she never said who started the conversation or how his feelings for her daughter came up. It is quite likely that Bumblestripe initiated the conversation. It could be a similar situation with Rosepetal. Or perhaps Rosepetal approached Bumblestripe first and revealed her feelings for him. She was then either asked to help him win over Dovewing or chose to do so on her own. A living vicariously through their relationship kind of situation. If my suspicions are correct, then this is a whole other level of messed up.
So, yeah, he didn't respect her at all. Not from the start.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 22, 2021 20:18:45 GMT -5
In a word, no. The relationship was toxic on all fronts. Dovewing's toxicity does not absolve Bumblestripe of his. Thrushpelt and Ashfur are the two extremes of the partner spectrum. It does no good to compare others to them. Bumblestripe and Dovewing are nowhere near as bad as Ashfur, but that doesn't excuse their actions. I'm going to bold and capitalize my next point, because it needs to be shouted from the rooftops. YOU CAN BE BOTH A VICTIM AND A PERPETRATOR. Every single time a toxic relationship is discussed on this forum, without fail, I see people pinning the blame on one cat in situations where both are clearly at fault. BramblexSquirrel and CrowxNight are the worst examples of this. Point is, both Dovewing and Bumblestripe are at fault. Dovewing's crimes are not being upfront with Bumblestripe at the start and later using him to get over Tigerheart. She wasn't attracted to him in the slightest and should have just told him. There was no reason to believe he would have a particularly negative reaction at this point. Snapping at him was the wrong move. Bumblestripe's reaction was understandable. I respect that she was uncomfortable with his advances, but they were pretty mild and run of the mill at this point. A simple no would have sufficed. Once she broke it off the first time, they never should have gotten back to together. It was not fair to Bumblestripe at all. There was no attraction from the start and there never would be. Leading him on did nothing to help either of them. Now before I get to Bumblestripe's crimes, I need to stop for moment and rant. Can we please stop treating Dovewing like she's Satan? Saying Bumblestripe is more then she deserves is incredibly harsh. She is not a monster. She was a young cat who lacked communication skills. Bumblestripe was guilty of the same thing. And yet he gets a free pass on his behavior. These double standards are actually dangerous. It's clear that people's bias against Dovewing is influencing how they view this relationship. Obviously you are entitled to your opinions on her. That said, we really need to be careful how we discuss relationships on this forum. Yes we are discussing fictional characters, but books represent the real world. Many people have experienced similar situations. When someone is going harshly after a character in a relationship just because they don't like them, and not because pf their actions in the relationship, there is the potential that a forumer in the same shoes could be harmed as a result. I myself was in a similar situation as a teenager. I didn't lead anyone on, but a boy liked me and I was oblivious to it. Things eventually turned nasty, though to a lesser degree. If I had read some of these comments then, it would have had a serious impact on my mental health. You're free to hate Dovewing if you wish, but please try to come into discussions about her relationships neutral. Before I engage in a discussion involving a character I dislike, I always take a moment to evaluate if I can be entirely fair. If I realize can't, then I don't engage in that discussion at all. I suggest others do the same. Now, back to Bumblestripe. Let's start with what we know he did. He was passive aggressive when Dovewing didn't pick up on his cues, he invaded her privacy in a vulnerable moment, and tried to talk her into having kits after they'd already broken up. Bumblestripe made the same mistake as Dovewing. He wasn't upfront with her about his feelings. All this trouble would have been saved if he just told her that he liked her. As for him invading her privacy, I am talking about him showing Bramblestar Dovewing's attempts at replicating her lost powers in the tunnels. It was incredibly sad to see the impact losing her powers had on her. She was born with these abilities. It was all she has ever known and to have them taken away after the Great Battle was incredibly cruel and traumatizing. Dovewing was clearly going through a sort of grieving process. She was deep in the tunnels with the clear intention of being alone. Her mate finding her is one thing, but to have her mate to show their leader such a vulnerable moment was incredibly invasive. It was none of Bramblestar's business. Dovewing was still doing her duties like any other warrior. It was a private moment that Bumblestripe had no business sharing. Aqua and Zuma have pretty much said it all for the kit situation. Bumblestripe was not asking to start over. He was asking her to be his incubator for his kits. This is the definition of objectifying. I really hope I don't have to explain how disgusting his actions were here. But there's more if you read between the lines. How did Rosepetal and Whitewing know Bumblestripe liked Dovewing? I don't recall it being that obvious on the first readthrough. In fact, it came straight out of left field. Dovewing seems to be rather oblivious, similar to Gray Wing in TST, so I guess it could just be her perspective. But I usually pick up on any hints and there were none this time. They seemed to be hinting towards BumblexIvy more than anything. If the readers didn't notice it, then it makes sense that the characters wouldn't either. I suspect Bumblestripe told them his feelings with the intent of having them manipulate her into a relationship. Whitewing even admitted to talking with him. But she never said who started the conversation or how his feelings for her daughter came up. It is quite likely that Bumblestripe initiated the conversation. It could be a similar situation with Rosepetal. Or perhaps Rosepetal approached Bumblestripe first and revealed her feelings for him. She was then either asked to help him win over Dovewing or chose to do so on her own. A living vicariously through their relationship kind of situation. If my suspicions are correct, then this is a whole other level of messed up. So, yeah, he didn't respect her at all. Not from the start. Only thing I’m going to firmly say about this is no, there is 0 canon evidence or statement that Bumblestripe ever told Rosepetal or Whitewing to ever pressure Dovewing into anything. None. I can respect your opinions on each moment and issue between these two cats, and many points I agree with, but this is what I mean when I say that people will do anything an everything to paint Bumbestripe out to be waaaaaaay worse of a cat than what he actually is in canon. There is also 0 evidence that Bumblestripe did not want to try and rekindle their relationship. Bumblestripe loved her. For a little while, it seemed Dovewing did like him back. But the communication was non-existant and he was broken up with, but canonically never was told why. He brought up what he wanted at the wrong time and nobody will ever deny that. But he did not do anything beyond that when Dovewing’s answer was firmly no and was realized that it would always be no. But nowhere ever does it say that Bumblestripe was playing puppetmaster and getting his clanmates to pressure her. I will tell you from my own experiences that mothers are nosy as hell and pull the “This boy/girl likes you, right? You guys should date! Do you have a boyfriend/girlfriend yet?” while having no information beyond just knowing or talking to that other person. They jump to conclusions. Rosepetal, being a clanmate who has been shown to be blunt and hotheaded and nosy before, more than likely was just trying to play matchmaker with two of her friends and butting into something. Even if Bumblestripe could have told them he liked Dovewing, which is not a crime at all, there is nothing to support that he would ever try to get them to push Dovewing to him. This is just slapping theories on and villainizing a cat for something with no canon evidence of. I do not care that Dovewing didn’t like him. I also didn’t care if BumbleDove broke up or stayed together. But I do care about solid communication because a lack of it is horrendously destructive to any relationship. I think both Bumble and Dove were disrespectful to eachother in different ways, but a majority of the fandoms will always side with the she-cat and turn the tom into something he really isn’t. I criticize Dovewing for her own actions and choices, not because I like or dislike any character more than the other. I simply think that in the same way people have a right to say what they like or theorize about Bumblestripe, they also have a right to hold Dovewing accountable for her own actions as well, since we all already agree that Bumblestripe was wrong to ask for her to consider becoming mates and having kits again during Purdy’s vigil.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 22, 2021 20:22:11 GMT -5
How did Rosepetal and Whitewing know Bumblestripe liked Dovewing? Great post! You've said everything I wanted to say! As for this part here, we first get hints of Bumblestripe's feelings for Dovewing in SotM, after she saves Icewing, so one can argue there's a bit of hero-worshipping going on there, which may explain his behavior if his perception gets broken later on. At the very least, he clearly starts to admire her afterwards. They start to interact alot more before she goes to the mountains, like when she sits next to him at a Gathering and also helps him with lying about Briarlight's injury and later comforts him. Blossomfall was the first to notice Bumblestripe's affection and the rest of the Clan could've picked up on it later on. And after Dovewing returns and has nightmares, Bumblestripe is shown being concerned for her, and then of course we get him wanting to spend time with her in TFW. But yeah, he really wasn't being all that subtle about it if you read their interactions a certain way. There's really nothing to suggest he was trying to get Whitewing and the rest of the Clan to pressure Dovewing into a relationship. That's all on them.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 22, 2021 20:31:45 GMT -5
MoonblazerAgreed with this, also even if he did mention he had a crush, I don't see the harm, people tell people they have crushes on people all the time, it doesn't make them a terrible or manipulative person.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 22, 2021 21:16:02 GMT -5
bumblestripe has been nothing but respectful up until they dragged him through the mud and made him a creep just to prop up tigerheart towards the end of the drama.
it's dovewing who has been disresepctful. she constantly unfairly compared bumble to tiger and made it sound like it's a crime for bumble to be nothing like tiger...and then she constantly lashed out at him for just trying to get to know her or spend time with her.
yeah sure, bumble was a little bit pushy, but he wasn't overly pushy or outright disrespectful until they made him a creep towards the end (again, referring to the time they purposefully made him a creep out of nowhere with the kits comment).
his crush being obvious is why rose and whitewing had opinions on it. whitewing is the most involved with dovewing's life compared to birchfall, of course a dotting mother would be pushing a partner they believe to be a "nice option." and rosepetal, we just assume she had a crush on bumble, and she was doing the "if i cant have him, i'll support his crush on this girl just so he can be happy" so when she saw dovewing do NOTHING but yell and disrespect bumblestripe, she acted on her jealousy and anger. in my opinion, rosepetal was just a girl who wanted her crush to be happy even if it wasnt with her. sure, her feelings got to her, but it was only once and she did it for the sake of bumblestripe more so than for herself.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Aug 22, 2021 21:48:01 GMT -5
In a word, no. The relationship was toxic on all fronts. Dovewing's toxicity does not absolve Bumblestripe of his. Thrushpelt and Ashfur are the two extremes of the partner spectrum. It does no good to compare others to them. Bumblestripe and Dovewing are nowhere near as bad as Ashfur, but that doesn't excuse their actions. I'm going to bold and capitalize my next point, because it needs to be shouted from the rooftops. YOU CAN BE BOTH A VICTIM AND A PERPETRATOR. Every single time a toxic relationship is discussed on this forum, without fail, I see people pinning the blame on one cat in situations where both are clearly at fault. BramblexSquirrel and CrowxNight are the worst examples of this. Point is, both Dovewing and Bumblestripe are at fault. Dovewing's crimes are not being upfront with Bumblestripe at the start and later using him to get over Tigerheart. She wasn't attracted to him in the slightest and should have just told him. There was no reason to believe he would have a particularly negative reaction at this point. Snapping at him was the wrong move. Bumblestripe's reaction was understandable. I respect that she was uncomfortable with his advances, but they were pretty mild and run of the mill at this point. A simple no would have sufficed. Once she broke it off the first time, they never should have gotten back to together. It was not fair to Bumblestripe at all. There was no attraction from the start and there never would be. Leading him on did nothing to help either of them. Now before I get to Bumblestripe's crimes, I need to stop for moment and rant. Can we please stop treating Dovewing like she's Satan? Saying Bumblestripe is more then she deserves is incredibly harsh. She is not a monster. She was a young cat who lacked communication skills. Bumblestripe was guilty of the same thing. And yet he gets a free pass on his behavior. These double standards are actually dangerous. It's clear that people's bias against Dovewing is influencing how they view this relationship. Obviously you are entitled to your opinions on her. That said, we really need to be careful how we discuss relationships on this forum. Yes we are discussing fictional characters, but books represent the real world. Many people have experienced similar situations. When someone is going harshly after a character in a relationship just because they don't like them, and not because pf their actions in the relationship, there is the potential that a forumer in the same shoes could be harmed as a result. I myself was in a similar situation as a teenager. I didn't lead anyone on, but a boy liked me and I was oblivious to it. Things eventually turned nasty, though to a lesser degree. If I had read some of these comments then, it would have had a serious impact on my mental health. You're free to hate Dovewing if you wish, but please try to come into discussions about her relationships neutral. Before I engage in a discussion involving a character I dislike, I always take a moment to evaluate if I can be entirely fair. If I realize can't, then I don't engage in that discussion at all. I suggest others do the same. Now, back to Bumblestripe. Let's start with what we know he did. He was passive aggressive when Dovewing didn't pick up on his cues, he invaded her privacy in a vulnerable moment, and tried to talk her into having kits after they'd already broken up. Bumblestripe made the same mistake as Dovewing. He wasn't upfront with her about his feelings. All this trouble would have been saved if he just told her that he liked her. As for him invading her privacy, I am talking about him showing Bramblestar Dovewing's attempts at replicating her lost powers in the tunnels. It was incredibly sad to see the impact losing her powers had on her. She was born with these abilities. It was all she has ever known and to have them taken away after the Great Battle was incredibly cruel and traumatizing. Dovewing was clearly going through a sort of grieving process. She was deep in the tunnels with the clear intention of being alone. Her mate finding her is one thing, but to have her mate to show their leader such a vulnerable moment was incredibly invasive. It was none of Bramblestar's business. Dovewing was still doing her duties like any other warrior. It was a private moment that Bumblestripe had no business sharing. Aqua and Zuma have pretty much said it all for the kit situation. Bumblestripe was not asking to start over. He was asking her to be his incubator for his kits. This is the definition of objectifying. I really hope I don't have to explain how disgusting his actions were here. But there's more if you read between the lines. How did Rosepetal and Whitewing know Bumblestripe liked Dovewing? I don't recall it being that obvious on the first readthrough. In fact, it came straight out of left field. Dovewing seems to be rather oblivious, similar to Gray Wing in TST, so I guess it could just be her perspective. But I usually pick up on any hints and there were none this time. They seemed to be hinting towards BumblexIvy more than anything. If the readers didn't notice it, then it makes sense that the characters wouldn't either. I suspect Bumblestripe told them his feelings with the intent of having them manipulate her into a relationship. Whitewing even admitted to talking with him. But she never said who started the conversation or how his feelings for her daughter came up. It is quite likely that Bumblestripe initiated the conversation. It could be a similar situation with Rosepetal. Or perhaps Rosepetal approached Bumblestripe first and revealed her feelings for him. She was then either asked to help him win over Dovewing or chose to do so on her own. A living vicariously through their relationship kind of situation. If my suspicions are correct, then this is a whole other level of messed up. So, yeah, he didn't respect her at all. Not from the start. Only thing I’m going to firmly say about this is no, there is 0 canon evidence or statement that Bumblestripe ever told Rosepetal or Whitewing to ever pressure Dovewing into anything. None. I can respect your opinions on each moment and issue between these two cats, and many points I agree with, but this is what I mean when I say that people will do anything an everything to paint Bumbestripe out to be waaaaaaay worse of a cat than what he actually is in canon. There is also 0 evidence that Bumblestripe did not want to try and rekindle their relationship. Bumblestripe loved her. For a little while, it seemed Dovewing did like him back. But the communication was non-existant and he was broken up with, but canonically never was told why. He brought up what he wanted at the wrong time and nobody will ever deny that. But he did not do anything beyond that when Dovewing’s answer was firmly no and was realized that it would always be no. But nowhere ever does it say that Bumblestripe was playing puppetmaster and getting his clanmates to pressure her. I will tell you from my own experiences that mothers are nosy as hell and pull the “This boy/girl likes you, right? You guys should date! Do you have a boyfriend/girlfriend yet?” while having no information beyond just knowing or talking to that other person. They jump to conclusions. Rosepetal, being a clanmate who has been shown to be blunt and hotheaded and nosy before, more than likely was just trying to play matchmaker with two of her friends and butting into something. Even if Bumblestripe could have told them he liked Dovewing, which is not a crime at all, there is nothing to support that he would ever try to get them to push Dovewing to him. This is just slapping theories on and villainizing a cat for something with no canon evidence of. I do not care that Dovewing didn’t like him. I also didn’t care if BumbleDove broke up or stayed together. But I do care about solid communication because a lack of it is horrendously destructive to any relationship. I think both Bumble and Dove were disrespectful to eachother in different ways, but a majority of the fandoms will always side with the she-cat and turn the tom into something he really isn’t. I criticize Dovewing for her own actions and choices, not because I like or dislike any character more than the other. I simply think that in the same way people have a right to say what they like or theorize about Bumblestripe, they also have a right to hold Dovewing accountable for her own actions as well, since we all already agree that Bumblestripe was wrong to ask for her to consider becoming mates and having kits again during Purdy’s vigil. Fair enough. That point occurred to me while I was typing. I didn't have the books handy so I admittedly didn't do the research I should have. That is my bad and I accept responsibility. I brought it up because both incidents struck me as odd for differing reasons. Yes, irl mothers are often nosy and mine isn't any different. But mothers in Warriors often aren't nosy with their grown kits, and that's what stood out to me. Whitewing, Tree, and maybe Brightflower? are the only ones I can think of who actively tried to encourage their kits to pursue a relationship. Ivypool was different since she was trying to stop Bristlefrost from breaking the warrior code. But it wasn't just Whitewing's nosiness. It was the fact that she named Bumblestripe and admitted to talking him that really caught my attention. Then Bumblestripe stepped up his advances in that same book. It was too coincidental for me. I didn't think anything was strange with Rosepetal until it was revealed that she liked him. It is definitely more likely that she decided to intervene on her own, but I included her because of the timing. Bumblestripe's feelings for Dovewing in SS are moot imo. Maybe he did intend on getting back together, but that doesn't change the fact that he immediately followed with a request to have kits with her. It is still objectifying her, even if that wasn't his intent. He still treated her like an incubator. I agree for the most part that toms get treated worse by the fandom. But in this particular case, I think Dovewing gets the brunt of the hate. And as I said before, I think it's because so many people hate her. Blatant bias, regardless of it's directed at, is very frustrating. That all said, thank you for calling me out. No one can grow without being aware they need to. And I absolutely do not want to contribute to the very thing I want to end.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 22, 2021 23:40:16 GMT -5
A tom loves a she-cat and genuinely wants to have a family with her =/= thinks of her only as an incubator and is trying to objectify her.
Please...an actual example of a tom only wanting kits out of a she-cat actually exists in canon but yet Bumblestripe is constantly smacked with this label. It is actually tiring. This honestly just reminds me of when even Fernsong was getting accusations of "pressuring" Ivypool. The amount of bias treatment that toms have to deal with in this fandom is ridiculous at this point.
EDIT: And to be clear, I don't care about Bumblestripe as a character, nor do I like BumbleDove. But when it comes to Bumble, admittedly I'm tired of him being villainized, and other toms tbh, especially with zero evidence half the time.
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