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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 20, 2021 18:32:42 GMT -5
As for Bluestar, that situation is debatable, considering maternal leave is a thing in general. I wouldn't considered Bluestar's situation maternity leave, more like being denied a promotion. Being denied a promotion for being pregnant or having given birth recently is discriminatory and illegal (at least in the US). Bluestar should have been able to raise her kits while not having to worry she wouldn't be eligible for deputy in her leader's eyes. Not necessarily. Her leader had cats he was considering, who were qualifiable, between both Bluestar and Thistleclaw. But it didn't mean that he wasn't going to choose Bluestar because of her kits, Tawnyspots was still deputy after all, and was going to retire eventually. It was Goosefeather, of all people, that confirmed getting rid of her kits was for the prophecy sake. It was a decision Bluestar made on her own after seeing a vision, and then later Goosefeather confirms it. Also, to be clear. Someone on maternity leave can still be qualifiable for promotion, legally they have to at least be considered. And in Bluestar's case she was at least considered, regardless of her having the kits or not. When speaking with Bluefur about being promoted, she asks about Thistleclaw, and Sunstar acknowledges that he'd be a popular choice, and thinks of him as being loyal, but too battle aggressive. Keep in mind that Sunstar also doesn't know about the prophecy, and this is just based on his own perceptions of Blue and Thistle. Even when Blue reported the incident where Thistle almost killed Oak at the border, he still believed that Thistle was just being loyal. When he chose Bluestar, it was based on her qualities and leadership skills, not based on her circumstances, and sympathy. At the end of the day it was Bluestar's choice to have the kits, and her choice to give them away, while Goosefeather agreed with her choice thinking it would be better for the prophecy.
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Post by rabbit on Aug 20, 2021 18:45:37 GMT -5
The text you just showed implies that Bluestar could not lead her clan and raise her kits, which just reinforces that I feel that the situation is sexist in general because I feel like that is nonsense. Sorry, I don't think you are going to convince me otherwise.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 20, 2021 19:07:52 GMT -5
The text you just showed implies that Bluestar could not lead her clan and raise her kits, which just reinforces that I feel that the situation is sexist in general because I feel like that is nonsense. Sorry, I don't think you are going to convince me otherwise. The text implies that she personally believed that getting rid of the kits was the right thing to do to be deputy, and leader one day, not the system discriminating against her by being sexists due to her being a she-cat. Goosefeather says that the prophecy left no room for kits, and agreed with her choices of getting rid of her kits, not Sunstar choosing to make her deputy only because she didn't have kits anymore. There's no instance where Sunstar, as leader, was discriminating against Bluefur because of her being a she-cat and having kits, when it came to considering her for "promotion" alongside Thistleclaw. It was the prophecy, not the system they lived by, that Bluestar made her choice based upon. While Sunstar, even though he considered Thistleclaw, already confirmed that he was too aggressive to be his choice anyways, even if he thought of him being a loyal cat.
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Post by rabbit on Aug 20, 2021 19:24:44 GMT -5
Somewhere in the original arc Bluestar explains to Fireheart she gave away her kits because she thought the clans would never choose a queen as a deputy. She is probably right because there is never an instance of this happening. I am not sure about the systematic stuff or whatever but that is plain sexism, prophecy or not.
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Non-binary
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Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 20, 2021 19:32:22 GMT -5
Somewhere in the original arc Bluestar explains to Fireheart she gave away her kits because she thought the clans would never choose a queen as a deputy. She is probably right because there is never instance of this happening. I am not sure about the systematic stuff or whatever but that is plain sexism, prophecy or not. I do agree that there must be better ways of going about it. It's not like a situation where a leader wants to stay in a nursery for 6 moons and neglect their duties. At the very least if the deputy decided to do just that until at least the point where their kits were weaned from her milk, other cats could fulfill their duties until she returned to action. Either that or she could resume their duties like always but would have support from other cats, especially other queens, to help raise her kits. After all, a deputy has a lot more on their plate than a queen does.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 20, 2021 19:35:23 GMT -5
Somewhere in the original arc Bluestar explains to Fireheart she gave away her kits because she thought the clans would never choose a queen as a deputy. She is probably right because there is never instance of this happening. I am not sure about the systematic stuff or whatever but that is plain sexism, prophecy or not. Do you have the quote? When exactly does this happen?
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 20, 2021 19:41:52 GMT -5
Somewhere in the original arc Bluestar explains to Fireheart she gave away her kits because she thought the clans would never choose a queen as a deputy. She is probably right because there is never instance of this happening. I am not sure about the systematic stuff or whatever but that is plain sexism, prophecy or not. Do you have the quote? When exactly does this happen? I think they might be referring to this one.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 20, 2021 19:48:38 GMT -5
Do you have the quote? When exactly does this happen? I think they might be referring to this one. That's kinda funny, inconsistency wise. Tawnyspots doesn't retire until a new deputy was chosen, and when Bluefur agreed to take Sunstar's offer. By then she had already given up her kits. Her wording here is out of order. What book is this, because depending on that, it might mean that the information in her SE, outdates the information from the main storyline book it came out in. Not to mention, her wording in saying the clan would never, but not the leader, regardless of if the clan approved or not, if Sunstar still chose her they'd have to deal with it.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 20, 2021 19:58:33 GMT -5
I think they might be referring to this one. That's kinda funny, inconsistency wise. Tawnyspots doesn't retire until a new deputy was chosen, and when Bluefur agreed to take Sunstar's offer. By then she had already given up her kits. Her wording here is out of order. What book is this, because depending on that, it might mean that the information in her SE, outdates the information from the main storyline book it came out in. Not to mention, her wording in saying the clan would never, but not the leader, regardless of if the clan approved or not, if Sunstar still chose her they'd have to deal with it. That's what I was thinking the other day! The inconsistency is pretty funny. Bluestar also says this almost right before. But this book is FoS, when Bluestar reveals the truth about her kits to Fireheart, and honestly, anything that's from the first arc, I take with a grain of salt, because then we get things like BP that clearly retcon them later on.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 20, 2021 20:12:22 GMT -5
That's kinda funny, inconsistency wise. Tawnyspots doesn't retire until a new deputy was chosen, and when Bluefur agreed to take Sunstar's offer. By then she had already given up her kits. Her wording here is out of order. What book is this, because depending on that, it might mean that the information in her SE, outdates the information from the main storyline book it came out in. Not to mention, her wording in saying the clan would never, but not the leader, regardless of if the clan approved or not, if Sunstar still chose her they'd have to deal with it. That's what I was thinking the other day! The inconsistency is pretty funny. Bluestar also says this almost right before. But this book is FoS, when Bluestar reveals the truth about her kits to Fireheart, and honestly, anything that's from the first arc, I take with a grain of salt, because then we get things like BP that clearly retcon them later on. Not to mention, this shows up in Crookedstar's SE: Implying that if they had told Sunstar about Thistleclaw, he wouldn't have been considered for deputy anymore, along side Bluefur, and Bluefur would have been just fine. On the other hand, this is what Sunstar says about Thistleclaw: And even after making Bluefur deputy, he also says this: Even though he didn't know about the prophecy, he wasn't naïve, he was very much aware of how Thistleclaw was, and preferred Bluefur as his choice, regardless of the kits. It was his own perspective and conclusion he came to. Honestly if Goosefeather and Bluestar actually had told him about the prophecy, or if Sunstar was told about Thistleclaw training, I doubt Bluestar would have concluded to herself that getting rid of the kits was necessary. At the end of the day, she had other options, and Sunstar is a very reasonable cat, and even he was keeping secrets from the clan, like the fact that he never got all 9 of his lives. At the end of the day, I doubt he would have went with Thistleclaw, and Bluestar made her own choice to have those kits and to get rid of them. It's like she said, she is ambitious, just like Thistleclaw.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 20, 2021 20:30:03 GMT -5
That's what I was thinking the other day! The inconsistency is pretty funny. Bluestar also says this almost right before. But this book is FoS, when Bluestar reveals the truth about her kits to Fireheart, and honestly, anything that's from the first arc, I take with a grain of salt, because then we get things like BP that clearly retcon them later on. Not to mention, this shows up in Crookedstar's SE: Implying that if they had told Sunstar about Thistleclaw, he wouldn't have been considered for deputy anymore, along side Bluefur, and Bluefur would have been just fine. On the other hand, this is what Sunstar says about Thistleclaw: And even after making Bluefur deputy, he also says this: Even though he didn't know about the prophecy, he wasn't naïve, he was very much aware of how Thistleclaw was, and preferred Bluefur as his choice, regardless of the kits. It was his own perspective and conclusion he came to. Honestly if Goosefeather and Bluestar actually had told him about the prophecy, or if Sunstar was told about Thistleclaw training, I doubt Bluestar would have concluded to herself that getting rid of the kits was necessary. At the end of the day, she had other options, and Sunstar is a very reasonable cat, and even he was keeping secrets from the clan, like the fact that he never got all 9 of his lives. At the end of the day, I doubt he would have went with Thistleclaw, and Bluestar made her own choice to have those kits and to get rid of them. It's like she said, she is ambitious, just like Thistleclaw. Honestly, the weirdest part to me about all this is that Bluefur doesn't even react—even internally—when Sunstar basically says that he wouldn't have chosen Thistleclaw anyway. No Did Mosskit die for nothing? or anything like that.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 21, 2021 11:33:30 GMT -5
Chicken I can say the most blatant example of sexism towards female characters in this series is Bluestar being convinced she wouldn't be selected for deputy because she was a queen at that time. So she fakes the deaths of her kits to become a warrior again. If Bluestar was the most eligible cat for deputy, she still should have been chosen, queen or not. She has a whole clan to help raise her kits while fulfilling her role as a deputy. Besides, when she-cats become queens after being deputy/leader, they don't suddenly get demoted (Squirrelflight, Windstar). Other examples I can think of also involve she-cats having the burden of being pregnant and raising kits, especially in forbidden relationships. Imagine if Leafpool and Crowfeather swapped sexes. Leafpool would never have to worry about losing her role as a medicine cat or convincing her sister to fake their birth. Meanwhile, Crowfeather would have to bear the burden of his clanmates being suspicious of him and his kits for giving birth to probably half-clan cats. Punishment is weighted heavily on she-cats. Crowfeather and Leafpool isn't really a fair comparison since she's a medicine cat. Maybe if they were both warriors or both medicine cats, then things would be different. Yeah, Leafpool had to drag her sister into it, and lie to everyone around her, but at least she knew she had kits, and she got to be with them, Crowfeather didn't.
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