Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 15, 2021 15:58:52 GMT -5
So, I saw this video again from a while ago (which briefly came up in another thread on here already) and remembered the cricism surrounding the premise of Genderswapping because the comments underneath still talk about it:
Personally, I find no harm in Genderbending/Genderswapping as long as it doesn't erase someones canon orientation like it would be with Tallstar and Ravenpaw getting turned into she cats just so they can have kits with Jake and Barley. I'm still writing (and have written) a lot of AUs with this theme myself but then again, anyone having a problem with it is always free to express their valid opinion and educate others further on this specific topic to point out things that are wrong about it.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 15, 2021 17:07:18 GMT -5
I used to go on a subreddit dedicated to a Webtoon, and occasionally someone would make a post where they drew a genderbent character. I always thought it was an interesting way of seeing a character depicted differently + seeing how good their art was. Never thought it was controversial at all.
But when it comes to putting genderbent characters into an AU instead of a single drawing, I guess you'd have to be more careful about not changing their personality, canon orientation, and whatnot because if not you will be getting others upset. So genderbending is fine as long as you do that.
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on Aug 16, 2021 9:27:20 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Aug 16, 2021 9:47:30 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women. Nah, I don't agree w this interpretation. I think this PMV is trying to say how Squirrelflight herself *wishes* that she was a tom because she can actually treat she-cats with respect. There are women who sometimes think that way, how if they were men, then they would be able to understand and connect with women better than a lot of other men. Like, I think the song itself is trying to touch upon gender-relations commentary. It's more about Squirrelflight using a fantasy of her being a tom to cope with the sadness/frustration she feels at her relationship with a tom. Taken into this context, I really feel like the genderswap in *this* PMV is perfectly fine. The "genderswap" portrayed in the PMV is more about Squirrelflight's fantasy and her feelings. It's not trying to erase a gender identity or orientation. EDIT: Want to add that the argument presented in the original quote is not very good. This topic is about genderbending usage in fanart/media. This user's reply is that the "only problem with the PMV" is that it says BrambleSquirrel would be better if the genders are swapped; this is a reductionist interpretation on the actual PMV (which I detail above), and is a bad argument. I say it is bad because it's logically invalid and irrelevant to the main topic (genderbending). Instead, this reply hinges on two premises: genderbending isn't the problem and BrambleSquirrel is presented as Good if they had their genders swapped. Both of these are not true. Genderbending is literally the main issue we're discussing in this whole thread, and the video is not presenting SquirrelBramble as "Good if they swapped genders"-- it's about how Squirrelflight *feels*, as a she-cat. Then, they conclude with "men can be abused by women", a true factual statement, but how is this a relevant answer to the question of "is genderswapping portrayed in fan-media acceptable?" Instead, it's as if the inclusion of this last sentence isn't meant to answer the main question. Behind this true statement about how men can be abuse victims, because who can refute that?, it seems like they're trying to say that Squirrelflight would abuse Brambleclaw. Which, is irrelevant to the discussion and would make for a better response in a SquirrelBramble debate thread. Maplefrost details a better argument, actually relevant to the main question (portraying all the bg characters as genderbends is problematic because it actually does suggest simply changing genders would fix relationships)-- and while I disagree with the conclusion it's actually a valid argument. This quote makes NO mention of the fact that the bg characters are genderswaps. Which is why I don't think this argument is good. It's not relevant and an invalid argumentation, sure you conclude with a factually true statement but the premises and inference you used to get there are shaky at best, constructing a *seemingly* relevant response but it's actually about something else entirely. I'm hoping you didn't intend to actually dismiss genderbending as an actual issue, in favour of making the problem about BrambleSquirrel. Please be careful about how you construct an argument. If this was twitterdotcom I guarantee things will go down much worse.
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Post by MadameDelune on Aug 16, 2021 11:38:44 GMT -5
It’s fine some ppl just like being problematic on purpose
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 16, 2021 13:51:57 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women. Nah, I don't agree w this interpretation. I think this PMV is trying to say how Squirrelflight herself *wishes* that she was a tom because she can actually treat she-cats with respect. There are women who sometimes think that way, how if they were men, then they would be able to understand and connect with women better than a lot of other men. Like, I think the song itself is trying to touch upon gender-relations commentary. It's more about Squirrelflight using a fantasy of her being a tom to cope with the sadness/frustration she feels at her relationship with a tom. Taken into this context, I really feel like the genderswap in *this* PMV is perfectly fine. The "genderswap" portrayed in the PMV is more about Squirrelflight's fantasy and her feelings. It's not trying to erase a gender identity or orientation. But like if that were the case they should have just genderbent only Squirrelflight, and not the other characters as well. By genderbending everyone, and changing the story based off those genderswaps, they're implying what Finland pointed out. Even if the creator intended it the way you said, it can still come off as a different way to others due to the context of the video. Even then, genderbending in general can be harmful, personally it doesn't bother me, but I know for a lot it can come off as transphobic because of the connotations of it. So even if the creator didn't intend that either, it's still quite a harmful connotation. You can't please everyone, but it's also obvious the creator wasn't aware of things like that, or didn't think it through before posting the video.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 16, 2021 18:57:11 GMT -5
i think its weird but not problematic
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 6:41:51 GMT -5
Nah, I don't agree w this interpretation. I think this PMV is trying to say how Squirrelflight herself *wishes* that she was a tom because she can actually treat she-cats with respect. There are women who sometimes think that way, how if they were men, then they would be able to understand and connect with women better than a lot of other men. Like, I think the song itself is trying to touch upon gender-relations commentary. It's more about Squirrelflight using a fantasy of her being a tom to cope with the sadness/frustration she feels at her relationship with a tom. Taken into this context, I really feel like the genderswap in *this* PMV is perfectly fine. The "genderswap" portrayed in the PMV is more about Squirrelflight's fantasy and her feelings. It's not trying to erase a gender identity or orientation. But like if that were the case they should have just genderbent only Squirrelflight, and not the other characters as well. By genderbending everyone, and changing the story based off those genderswaps, they're implying what Finland pointed out. Even if the creator intended it the way you said, it can still come off as a different way to others due to the context of the video. Even then, genderbending in general can be harmful, personally it doesn't bother me, but I know for a lot it can come off as transphobic because of the connotations of it. So even if the creator didn't intend that either, it's still quite a harmful connotation. You can't please everyone, but it's also obvious the creator wasn't aware of things like that, or didn't think it through before posting the video. Which is why for situations as serious as this one, the creator should honestly take down the video and formulate a public apology. Regardless if it's genuine or not, it'll be better than allowing this content to remain on YouTube. I'm personally not offended by this since I'm not trans (but I am non-binary), but sometimes it doesn't take one to know one to see the red flags.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Aug 17, 2021 11:49:15 GMT -5
But like if that were the case they should have just genderbent only Squirrelflight, and not the other characters as well. By genderbending everyone, and changing the story based off those genderswaps, they're implying what Finland pointed out. Even if the creator intended it the way you said, it can still come off as a different way to others due to the context of the video. Even then, genderbending in general can be harmful, personally it doesn't bother me, but I know for a lot it can come off as transphobic because of the connotations of it. So even if the creator didn't intend that either, it's still quite a harmful connotation. You can't please everyone, but it's also obvious the creator wasn't aware of things like that, or didn't think it through before posting the video. Which is why for situations as serious as this one, the creator should honestly take down the video and formulate a public apology. Regardless if it's genuine or not, it'll be better than allowing this content to remain on YouTube. I'm personally not offended by this since I'm not trans (but I am non-binary), but sometimes it doesn't take one to know one to see the red flags. It's been a long time since I last saw the OG video and forgot about the fact they genderswapped other characters. In that sense, I would agree that wasn't a good call and should be modified. I do agree genderbending can be harmful when it relies on gender essentialist concepts. But like, the creator of this video is probably just some kid who wanted to make an AMV, not realising the exact harms of genderbending. In the description, they stated when trans viewers told them about the harms of genderbending, they were debating removing the video until more trans viewers said the video was ok to leave up. I think the mission has been accomplished, really. A teenager who didn't know better was told by trans people about how complex the topic is and how careful you need to be in regards to genderbending, and they'll really be more careful from now on. It's unnecessary to have this one teenager make a public apology about a video on YouTube that was only made for a niche community. They already learned their lesson, and this is their first warning. If we were talking about a professional body of creators, such as an animation studio, then yes I'd be more willing to have them write a public apology. Because, unlike this one tiny creator on YouTube, a professionally produced and published body of work reaches a larger audience and actually has an impact on the general public. Compared to some other (professionally published) genderbending stuff I've seen, honestly this Warriors video at least has some point they're trying to make with it, and it isn't just played off as a joke or solely used as an *~aesthetic~*.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 11:58:24 GMT -5
Which is why for situations as serious as this one, the creator should honestly take down the video and formulate a public apology. Regardless if it's genuine or not, it'll be better than allowing this content to remain on YouTube. I'm personally not offended by this since I'm not trans (but I am non-binary), but sometimes it doesn't take one to know one to see the red flags. It's been a long time since I last saw the OG video and forgot about the fact they genderswapped other characters. In that sense, I would agree that wasn't a good call and should be modified. I do agree genderbending can be harmful when it relies on gender essentialist concepts. But like, the creator of this video is probably just some kid who wanted to make an AMV, not realising the exact harms of genderbending. In the description, they stated when trans viewers told them about the harms of genderbending, they were debating removing the video until more trans viewers said the video was ok to leave up. I think the mission has been accomplished, really. A teenager who didn't know better was told by trans people about how complex the topic is and how careful you need to be in regards to genderbending, and they'll really be more careful from now on. It's unnecessary to have this one teenager make a public apology about a video on YouTube that was only made for a niche community. They already learned their lesson, and this is their first warning. If we were talking about a professional body of creators, such as an animation studio, then yes I'd be more willing to have them write a public apology. Because, unlike this one tiny creator on YouTube, a professionally produced and published body of work reaches a larger audience and actually has an impact on the general public. Compared to some other (professionally published) genderbending stuff I've seen, honestly this Warriors video at least has some point they're trying to make with it, and it isn't just played off as a joke or solely used as an *~aesthetic~*. I was unaware that this video wasn't brand new. My opinion shifts slightly, but not by much. I'm not arguing against your points here, but to those who say that they were not offended or traumatized by this video, they must realize that there are those who were, and that this is a very sensitive and problematic issue. A trend that should never have been born. It is irresponsible and ignorant, perhaps even arrogant, for them to not consider opposing perspectives and experiences and to merely dismiss them as such, as I saw in the top comments on the video. Even if only one voice spoke out, that one voice should be taken with the highest amount of consideration. Allegedly this creator has already issued an apology and has learnt their lesson. Nevertheless, I would actively discourage anyone from visiting their channel further, from a moral standpoint. While I am not hurt by this video, many people undoubtedly were, and that is something that cannot be simply brushed under the rug. The actions of people should stay as a constant, not to be washed away because they supposedly learnt to be better. Reminding individuals of their past evils committed helps keep them on the right path, if anything else. The only minor amount of value I see in this video however is the very relevant point it makes of the sexism that has long since been spilt into the series by its creators, all the way since day one. Indeed if the Erins had written Squirrelflight as a tom instead of a she-cat, she would probably have been treated better and would have received more privileges as a warrior. This is a serious issue that does need to be addressed. These books are a product of our world, and in this world, women have yet to break through that glass ceiling. I don't find it very surprising that this remains consistent in the writers' works, and as I said before, progress has to be made. Edit: This is not about trying to please as many people as possible - such a feat is infeasible. Instead it's about identifying certain lines, not crossing them, and therefore minimizing harm dealt to others.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 12:16:52 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women. True, but it is so statistically rare and therefore unlikely that it's not even worth considering when talking about domestic abuse. What is it, like 1% or 2% of cases? This is not to mention that simply acknowledging it (woman abusing a man) is harmful to many women-led movements, and therefore you did not hear this message from me. But I am not going to get into this any further than I already have in this post, so let's just leave this here. Nevertheless, on a side note here, if Squirrelflight WAS a tom-cat from the start, then she would have been treated better by the other characters and, more importantly, the writing team, and this needs to change. While Warriors has more equality in it than any country on Earth, the books are still subject to the ways of the times. But again, I won't be going down this rabbit hole any further. Edit: Due to further thinking on the matter, I retract this statement. I won't delete it out of cowardice, but I will put a disclaimer in the following: to any user, especially male user, reading the statement above, I am sorry for any distress it may have caused you. My head wasn't in the right place at the time and it does not reflect my true values on the opinions on men. As for my reasoning behind me posting it, I always strive to be as progressive as I can be. With that being said I am often conflicted on what this real definition implies, leading to me posting statements that I genuinely regret later. If apologizing to men makes me more of an anti-woman person (under the claims of some), then so be it.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Aug 17, 2021 12:20:28 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I last saw the OG video and forgot about the fact they genderswapped other characters. In that sense, I would agree that wasn't a good call and should be modified. I do agree genderbending can be harmful when it relies on gender essentialist concepts. But like, the creator of this video is probably just some kid who wanted to make an AMV, not realising the exact harms of genderbending. In the description, they stated when trans viewers told them about the harms of genderbending, they were debating removing the video until more trans viewers said the video was ok to leave up. I think the mission has been accomplished, really. A teenager who didn't know better was told by trans people about how complex the topic is and how careful you need to be in regards to genderbending, and they'll really be more careful from now on. It's unnecessary to have this one teenager make a public apology about a video on YouTube that was only made for a niche community. They already learned their lesson, and this is their first warning. If we were talking about a professional body of creators, such as an animation studio, then yes I'd be more willing to have them write a public apology. Because, unlike this one tiny creator on YouTube, a professionally produced and published body of work reaches a larger audience and actually has an impact on the general public. Compared to some other (professionally published) genderbending stuff I've seen, honestly this Warriors video at least has some point they're trying to make with it, and it isn't just played off as a joke or solely used as an *~aesthetic~*. I was unaware that this video wasn't brand new. My opinion shifts slightly, but not by much. I'm not arguing against your points here, but to those who say that they were not offended or traumatized by this video, they must realize that there are those who were, and that this is a very sensitive and problematic issue. A trend that should never have been born. It is irresponsible and ignorant, perhaps even arrogant, for them to not consider opposing perspectives and experiences and to merely dismiss them as such, as I saw in the top comments on the video. Even if only one voice spoke out, that one voice should be taken with the highest amount of consideration. Allegedly this creator has already issued an apology and has learnt their lesson. Nevertheless, I would actively discourage anyone from visiting their channel further, from a moral standpoint. While I am not hurt by this video, many people undoubtedly were, and that is something that cannot be simply brushed under the rug. The actions of people should stay as a constant, not to be washed away because they supposedly learnt to be better. Reminding individuals of their past evils committed helps keep them on the right path, if anything else. The only minor amount of value I see in this video however is the very relevant point it makes of the sexism that has long since been spilt into the series by its creators, all the way since day one. Indeed if the Erins had written Squirrelflight as a tom instead of a she-cat, she would probably have been treated better and would have received more privileges as a warrior. This is a serious issue that does need to be addressed. These books are a product of our world, and in this world, women have yet to break through that glass ceiling. I don't find it very surprising that this remains consistent in the writers' works, and as I said before, progress has to be made. Yeah fair points. The only major nitpick I have is, I really don't think this action can be considered evil. It was a mistake, but it wasn't made out of intentional malice. And I really do think age is important to consider here, we aren't going to punish a child for doing something wrong when they don't know better. This person comes off as pretty young, and they might've been raised in a household that never taught them about LGBT social struggles, or a community that doesn't talk about it much. There are many reasons why a person would make a mistake like this, not out of spite. I think the attitude they have after being pointed out their mistake is one of the best I could ever ask for, tbh. And if you still do not want to engage with the creator, that's fair, it's understandable. Ofc, their mistake can't just be forgotten, but the point of mistakes is to grow and learn from them to do better in the future. This was a valuable learning experience for the creator, who might well be a minor, and I have good faith that they'll keep up. That's all I have to say on this discussion. I think the real issue are people who are (willfully) ignorant on how genderbending portray harmful ideas, anyways. Quick crash course: There's the problem of erasure and cishetnormativity-- such as "genderbending" a gay character so they can be with a person of the opposite gender. There's also the fact that it relies on gender essentialism-- the thought that gender=biology and that the differences between male and female are innate-- so by "genderbending" a man to a woman it assumes that men cannot assume feminine traits unless he is biologically "fixed" to do so. This ties into transphobia, because biology doesn't define one's gender. There's also the problem of emasculation and sexism-- some media use genderbending as joke, to either make fun of men acting femininely or to mock "women's behaviors".
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 12:37:32 GMT -5
I was unaware that this video wasn't brand new. My opinion shifts slightly, but not by much. I'm not arguing against your points here, but to those who say that they were not offended or traumatized by this video, they must realize that there are those who were, and that this is a very sensitive and problematic issue. A trend that should never have been born. It is irresponsible and ignorant, perhaps even arrogant, for them to not consider opposing perspectives and experiences and to merely dismiss them as such, as I saw in the top comments on the video. Even if only one voice spoke out, that one voice should be taken with the highest amount of consideration. Allegedly this creator has already issued an apology and has learnt their lesson. Nevertheless, I would actively discourage anyone from visiting their channel further, from a moral standpoint. While I am not hurt by this video, many people undoubtedly were, and that is something that cannot be simply brushed under the rug. The actions of people should stay as a constant, not to be washed away because they supposedly learnt to be better. Reminding individuals of their past evils committed helps keep them on the right path, if anything else. The only minor amount of value I see in this video however is the very relevant point it makes of the sexism that has long since been spilt into the series by its creators, all the way since day one. Indeed if the Erins had written Squirrelflight as a tom instead of a she-cat, she would probably have been treated better and would have received more privileges as a warrior. This is a serious issue that does need to be addressed. These books are a product of our world, and in this world, women have yet to break through that glass ceiling. I don't find it very surprising that this remains consistent in the writers' works, and as I said before, progress has to be made. Yeah fair points. The only major nitpick I have is, I really don't think this action can be considered evil. It was a mistake, but it wasn't made out of intentional malice. And I really do think age is important to consider here, we aren't going to punish a child for doing something wrong when they don't know better. This person comes off as pretty young, and they might've been raised in a household that never taught them about LGBT social struggles, or a community that doesn't talk about it much. There are many reasons why a person would make a mistake like this, not out of spite. I think the attitude they have after being pointed out their mistake is one of the best I could ever ask for, tbh. And if you still do not want to engage with the creator, that's fair, it's understandable. Ofc, their mistake can't just be forgotten, but the point of mistakes is to grow and learn from them to do better in the future. This was a valuable learning experience for the creator, who might well be a minor, and I have good faith that they'll keep up. That's all I have to say on this discussion. I think the real issue are people who are (willfully) ignorant on how genderbending portray harmful ideas, anyways. Quick crash course: There's the problem of erasure and cishetnormativity-- such as "genderbending" a gay character so they can be with a person of the opposite gender. There's also the fact that it relies on gender essentialism-- the thought that gender=biology and that the differences between male and female are innate-- so by "genderbending" a man to a woman it assumes that men cannot assume feminine traits unless he is biologically "fixed" to do so. This ties into transphobia, because biology doesn't define one's gender. There's also the problem of emasculation and sexism-- some media use genderbending as joke, to either make fun of men acting femininely or to mock "women's behaviors". I agree. Nevertheless, regardless of the intention, what's done is done. Allow me to give you an analogy. Let's pretend that a small child had been raised their entire life away from other humans - they only knew their immediate family. One day they found the drawing of a certain WWII German symbol in a documentary, for instance. They decided to draw that symbol and share it online, or perhaps just to their parents, or both. Were their intentions malicious? Of course not. But what matters at that point is how they respond afterwards and fix it and promise to do better. [Sigh] Again however, an apology has supposedly been made and hopefully this creator has learnt greatly since this video's upload, and therefore that case is mostly closed. Nevertheless, this brings up an interesting predicament. Should this video (hypothetically) be removed as to not create further harm, or should it be kept up as a reminder as to what not to produce as content? Just something to think about. This is entirely possible. I was (and still am) raised by an anti-LGBTQ family who refused to bring any of it up until I was 12 or so as to not "contaminate me", and prior to that point I had no idea that the LGBTQ+ community was even a thing, even the very concept was an unknown to me. It was only when I transitioned into foster care for a few years did I become as progressive as I am today. Indeed sheltering your child and filter feeding them false information can have drastic, harmful consequences. I find it admirable that you have such good faith in people. I wish I possessed that same quality, but all too often I have seen people turn on their word the moment they thought they could get away with it, or they never cared in the first place. That, and I generally take a more practical approach to matters. But we can agree to disagree on this one. Likewise. I would gladly attempt to "correct" people and show them that their privileged view isn't the end-all-be-all, but then I would be doing nothing else with my time. These are absolutely legitimate issues. With this being said however, what is your opinion on taking a previously cishet white male or female character and modifying them to be a visible and/or invisible minority? Do you see this as a slippery slope (an exception leads to the rule across the board) or should we turn a blind eye to this piece of the pie? And even if this could be described as a so-called "slippery slope", what about the perspective that we simply need more representation of minority groups? (Just giving my partial opinion on the matter, I'm tired of seeing Nathan Drake clones.) Regarding the prevalent sexism towards she-cats in the Warriors series, what would you do to change this in-universe? What changes would you make to the works, if you had that power? Only asking of course if you're interesting in pursuing this branching conversation.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Aug 17, 2021 13:04:15 GMT -5
I agree. Nevertheless, regardless of the intention, what's done is done. Allow me to give you an analogy. Let's pretend that a small child had been raised their entire life away from other humans - they only knew their immediate family. One day they found the drawing of a certain WWII German symbol in a documentary, for instance. They decided to draw that symbol and share it online, or perhaps just to their parents, or both. Were their intentions malicious? Of course not. But what matters at that point is how they respond afterwards and fix it and promise to do better. Again however, an apology has supposedly been made and hopefully this creator has learnt greatly since this video's upload, and therefore that case is mostly closed. Nevertheless, this brings up an interesting predicament. Should this video (hypothetically) be removed as to not create further harm, or should it be kept up as a reminder as to what not to produce as content? Just something to think about. On this topic, I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. The attitude matters more to me as well. Regarding your question, I feel like it is up to the creator and their call to determine whether or not they want it up. There are lots of films made in the 90s and earlier with cultural appropriation of indigenous cultures, for example, that are still in circulation today. The films may still have value for other reasons, but ofc that shouldn't exclude it from criticism. There are some creators who would rather cancel production if they wish to, but I don't think it's necessary if they don't want to. First one, I tend to lean in favour towards the "we need more minority rep" argument. However, I was watching and reading a few articles written by minority creators, and some express the opinion that minorities should create their own stories and their own characters. Instead of reusing white characters or stories written by white people as a stencil for creation, minorities should break free from that in order to discover their own creative voice. And I think that's a good one, too, because it encourages minority creative voices to really put themselves out there and keep on pushing until we're heard. Second one, lol Warrior Cats is a mess and idk what i'd do to fix it. I'm sorta just here partly for nostalgia, as Warriors has always been like, "trash fiction" for kids. So I don't really take it that seriously. But in general, when it comes to writing women, I actively want to break out of typical tropes or common conceptions. I want to follow Sayo Yamamoto's example in writing women (who is admittedly an anime writer/director). Writing women as they actually are and can be: sometimes idiots, sometimes brilliant, sometimes hypocrites, sometimes wise.... and always an individual first.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 17, 2021 13:15:39 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women. True, but it is so statistically rare and therefore unlikely that it's not even worth considering when talking about domestic abuse. What is it, like 1% or 2% of cases? This is not to mention that simply acknowledging it (woman abusing a man) is harmful to many women-led movements, and therefore you did not hear this message from me. But I am not going to get into this any further than I already have in this post, so let's just leave this here. Nevertheless, on a side note here, if Squirrelflight WAS a tom-cat from the start, then she would have been treated better by the other characters and, more importantly, the writing team, and this needs to change. While Warriors has more equality in it than any country on Earth, the books are still subject to the ways of the times. But again, I won't be going down this rabbit hole any further. Are you serious? This is one of the most thoughtless things I ever read, in both brains and morality.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 13:16:16 GMT -5
I agree. Nevertheless, regardless of the intention, what's done is done. Allow me to give you an analogy. Let's pretend that a small child had been raised their entire life away from other humans - they only knew their immediate family. One day they found the drawing of a certain WWII German symbol in a documentary, for instance. They decided to draw that symbol and share it online, or perhaps just to their parents, or both. Were their intentions malicious? Of course not. But what matters at that point is how they respond afterwards and fix it and promise to do better. Again however, an apology has supposedly been made and hopefully this creator has learnt greatly since this video's upload, and therefore that case is mostly closed. Nevertheless, this brings up an interesting predicament. Should this video (hypothetically) be removed as to not create further harm, or should it be kept up as a reminder as to what not to produce as content? Just something to think about. On this topic, I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. The attitude matters more to me as well. Regarding your question, I feel like it is up to the creator and their call to determine whether or not they want it up. There are lots of films made in the 90s and earlier with cultural appropriation of indigenous cultures, for example, that are still in circulation today. The films may still have value for other reasons, but ofc that shouldn't exclude it from criticism. There are some creators who would rather cancel production if they wish to, but I don't think it's necessary if they don't want to. First one, I tend to lean in favour towards the "we need more minority rep" argument. However, I was watching and reading a few articles written by minority creators, and some express the opinion that minorities should create their own stories and their own characters. Instead of reusing white characters or stories written by white people as a stencil for creation, minorities should break free from that in order to discover their own creative voice. And I think that's a good one, too, because it encourages minority creative voices to really put themselves out there and keep on pushing until we're heard. Second one, lol Warrior Cats is a mess and idk what i'd do to fix it. I'm sorta just here partly for nostalgia, as Warriors has always been like, "trash fiction" for kids. So I don't really take it that seriously. But in general, when it comes to writing women, I actively want to break out of typical tropes or common conceptions. I want to follow Sayo Yamammoto's example in writing women (who is admittedly an anime writer/director). Writing women as they actually are and can be: sometimes idiots, sometimes brilliant, sometimes hypocrites, sometimes wise.... and always an individual first. I would honestly support in-depth analysis portions within said media, inserted in at the end or in a "director's cut" or whatever, that explained what they created back then was wrong, how it was wrong, and how they intend to change going forward. At least that way if said works were to remain in circulation, they wouldn't appear as brash or as confident about their flaws. But alas, I see this as being unrealistic, like shooting 100 fish in a barrel with only one musket ball. Agreed. I was just asking because I see this discussion a lot, and I often engage in it as well. I've already given my opinion however, it's far different taking a black character and making them white versus the other way around, for instance. The former is an example of erasure and racism while the other is a further push towards equality, but hopefully anyone reading this would already get that. Honestly the only reason I'm re-reading the series, nostalgia aside, is I want to be able to engage in current conversations without scratching my head at every corner. As such I plan to own every installment in the series, to not only read for nostalgia, but also as evidence if I ever need to back up a point or two. You've got my support there. I reason another problem we face is that the Erins for the longest time could not decide if they wanted the cats to live in a cat-like culture with some human characteristics, or a human-like culture where the characters were just cats for some reason, and it's pretty clear what path they went down. Therefore any decision they make for the sake of "realism" falls flat on its face. The damage has already been done, so it's time to embrace it so to speak. For example, I get the ideas of queens, but come on, give the kits to be raised equally by the toms every once in a while. Don't make entire plots around a she-cat wanting kits or what have you. But... I am as at a loss as you are. No matter how progressive the series may become in terms of its she-cat representation and improvement of characters who happen to be physically female, the core problems are definitely more skin deep. As they say, all works are a product of the times, even that produced by writers who were ahead of their time. Warriors is fun - cheap fun - but it is barely salvageable once you pull back that curtain. It's not just sexism either, the entire concepts of Clans and Tribes and the way they are portrayed is racist and a mockery of real indigenous tribes, but I won't go down that rabbit hole. But then again, the best of the fanfics were always superior anyway. And with that, I rest my case. Edit: I failed to see the second paragraph. I agree with everything you said. So, as to not distract from the thread at hand, I will repeat what I said before: If you don't see anything wrong with genderbending, that's fine (that you're not troubled by it). However it is important to acknowledge that plenty of people are and that their voices matter as well, perhaps even more so under these circumstances. For as long as this video exists online, I can only hope that people will continue to recognize the problematic content it is centered around and will educate others as to not repeat the creator's mistake.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 17, 2021 13:24:42 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women. True, but it is so statistically rare and therefore unlikely that it's not even worth considering when talking about domestic abuse. What is it, like 1% or 2% of cases? This is not to mention that simply acknowledging it (woman abusing a man) is harmful to many women-led movements, and therefore you did not hear this message from me. But I am not going to get into this any further than I already have in this post, so let's just leave this here. Nevertheless, on a side note here, if Squirrelflight WAS a tom-cat from the start, then she would have been treated better by the other characters and, more importantly, the writing team, and this needs to change. While Warriors has more equality in it than any country on Earth, the books are still subject to the ways of the times. But again, I won't be going down this rabbit hole any further. Any kind of abuse committed by women or men is worth considering. You're basically telling male abuse victims that the abuse they suffered from their partner "isn't worth considering."
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 17, 2021 13:27:56 GMT -5
My only problem with that PMV is that it implies that BlambleSquirrel would have had a better relationship if their genders were reversed. Guys can be abused by women. True, but it is so statistically rare and therefore unlikely that it's not even worth considering when talking about domestic abuse. What is it, like 1% or 2% of cases? This is not to mention that simply acknowledging it (woman abusing a man) is harmful to many women-led movements, and therefore you did not hear this message from me. But I am not going to get into this any further than I already have in this post, so let's just leave this here. Nevertheless, on a side note here, if Squirrelflight WAS a tom-cat from the start, then she would have been treated better by the other characters and, more importantly, the writing team, and this needs to change. While Warriors has more equality in it than any country on Earth, the books are still subject to the ways of the times. But again, I won't be going down this rabbit hole any further. Are you actually serious? Like, are you that cruel and thoughtless that you think that male survivors and victims don’t even deserve a shred of protection and awareness for their literal torment and terror and agony? As a woman who will happily fight for the rights and safety of other women, ignoring and shaming men for being victimized alongside us makes us no better than the ones that abuse us. You don’t get to make statements like this and brush off individuals who have suffered horrendously, some of which may very well be on this site as we speak, reading your comment and thinking “My suffering does not matter, my pain does not matter, because I am not a woman.” People really get on this site and belittle and disregard victims and that’s absolutely disgusting. I can’t believe I read this.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 17, 2021 13:32:30 GMT -5
“Let me make a horrendously cruel statement basically saying male survivors of abuse don’t deserve to be recognized, but we won’t go father into that.”
I just. Wow.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 13:35:11 GMT -5
Regarding my comment above on male victims not mattering, I did not intend to be so blunt about it. I apologize for what I had said about the subject, genuinely. I was considering editing the message above or even tampering with it, but I feared I would be accused of tampering with evidence or something... Honestly I should have deleted it earlier, or not typed it up at all.
Yes, male victims do matter. Do I think female victims should be focused on more? Yes. Male victims absolutely deserve help and support, but unfortunately many hate groups have taken this to form disgusting movements that push this into the ground. This is why if I ever hear about a service that helps male victims, I will always be more skeptical versus if they labeled it as "female patients only" or "both sexes welcome".
I know plenty of men in my life who have been victimized by the government and the like, including by other people around them. I absolutely care for them. However, I and they themselves acknowledged that they have more privilege than someone who is physically female or trans or non-binary. Again, their safety absolutely matters, but since women are more likely to be victims and because there is also oppression towards women (unlike men, which is just prejudice), again I think further emphasis should be put on helping female victims. That's all I have to say. *Holds hands up in the air and walks away*
(Mods, if you wish to remove these comments, feel free to do so of course.)
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 17, 2021 13:38:41 GMT -5
Or, all victims matter regardless of their gender, race, identity, and even implying that one specific group is not entitled to the same protection or care when it comes to literal abuse is kind of a disgusting notion and is dragging us backwards in progression. If the support I receive as a woman is at the expense of another human’s right to be safe from brutalization and the right to be heard and seen as a victim, then I do not want it. Because it’s not real support. It’s gross and dividing.
I’m so genuinely sorry that any male survivor or any survivor in general was basically just told that they don’t matter compared to other groups and that their pain doesn’t deserve to be spoken about. I’m so sorry.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 17, 2021 13:38:44 GMT -5
Regarding my comment above on male victims not mattering, I did not intend to be so blunt about it. I apologize for what I had said about the subject, genuinely. I was considering editing the message above or even tampering with it, but I feared I would be accused of tampering with evidence or something... Honestly I should have deleted it earlier, or not typed it up at all. Yes, male victims do matter. Do I think female victims should be focused on more? Yes. Male victims absolutely deserve help and support, but unfortunately many hate groups have taken this to form disgusting movements that push this into the ground. This is why if I ever hear about a service that helps male victims, I will always be more skeptical versus if they labeled it as "female patients only" or "both sexes welcome". I know plenty of men in my life who have been victimized by the government and the like, including by other people around them. I absolutely care for them. However, I and they themselves acknowledged that they have more privilege than someone who is physically female or trans or non-binary. Again, their safety absolutely matters, but since women are more likely to be victims and because there is also oppression towards women (unlike men, which is just prejudice), again I think further emphasis should be put on helping female victims. That's all I have to say. *Holds hands up in the air and walks away*
(Mods, if you wish to remove these comments, feel free to do so of course.) In the sense of men being abused by women, women have more privilege in this case. If men try to fight back to physical abuse, they'll suddenly be called the abuser. Also what Moonblazer said. Male abuse victims should not be helped less just because they are more "privileged."
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 13:43:40 GMT -5
Or, all victims matter regardless of their gender, race, identity, and even implying that one specific group is not entitled to the same protection or care when it comes to literal abuse is kind of a disgusting notion and is dragging us backwards in progression. If the support I receive as a woman is at the expense of another human’s right to be safe from brutalization and the right to be heard and seen as a victim, then I do not want it. Because it’s not real support. It’s gross and dividing. Playing Devil's Advocate, it's just one ugly and regrettable method to achieving equality, and that once that equality is met and oppression is removed from all fronts, then equal discourse can take place. Although not exactly the same, think of it as hiring a diverse team in a company (just because they are POC, regardless if they are qualified or not) and to replace all the white employees. If that were to hypothetically happen, yes one could say that is unethical, but it may be a necessary evil that has to take place until the tide becomes level. I personally don't support such practices on a moral level, honestly I do not. But perhaps it is the only way. I hope that I am wrong.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 17, 2021 13:46:05 GMT -5
True, but it is so statistically rare and therefore unlikely that it's not even worth considering when talking about domestic abuse. What is it, like 1% or 2% of cases? This is not to mention that simply acknowledging it (woman abusing a man) is harmful to many women-led movements, and therefore you did not hear this message from me. But I am not going to get into this any further than I already have in this post, so let's just leave this here. Nevertheless, on a side note here, if Squirrelflight WAS a tom-cat from the start, then she would have been treated better by the other characters and, more importantly, the writing team, and this needs to change. While Warriors has more equality in it than any country on Earth, the books are still subject to the ways of the times. But again, I won't be going down this rabbit hole any further. Any kind of abuse committed by women or men is worth considering. You're basically telling male abuse victims that the abuse they suffered from their partner "isn't worth considering." Exactly! And what about women abusing other women? As someone who has gone through that and has met others with similar experiences, this statement made by Violetsky almost reads as if mentioning those things happening, alongside women abusing men, "is harmful to many women-led movements" as well, at least according to Violetsky. Abuse has no gender restrictions or is only comitted by one specific gender.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 13:46:46 GMT -5
Regarding my comment above on male victims not mattering, I did not intend to be so blunt about it. I apologize for what I had said about the subject, genuinely. I was considering editing the message above or even tampering with it, but I feared I would be accused of tampering with evidence or something... Honestly I should have deleted it earlier, or not typed it up at all. Yes, male victims do matter. Do I think female victims should be focused on more? Yes. Male victims absolutely deserve help and support, but unfortunately many hate groups have taken this to form disgusting movements that push this into the ground. This is why if I ever hear about a service that helps male victims, I will always be more skeptical versus if they labeled it as "female patients only" or "both sexes welcome". I know plenty of men in my life who have been victimized by the government and the like, including by other people around them. I absolutely care for them. However, I and they themselves acknowledged that they have more privilege than someone who is physically female or trans or non-binary. Again, their safety absolutely matters, but since women are more likely to be victims and because there is also oppression towards women (unlike men, which is just prejudice), again I think further emphasis should be put on helping female victims. That's all I have to say. *Holds hands up in the air and walks away*
(Mods, if you wish to remove these comments, feel free to do so of course.) In the sense of men being abused by women, women have more privilege in this case. If men try to fight back to physical abuse, they'll suddenly be called the abuser. Also what Moonblazer said. Male abuse victims should not be helped less just because they are more "privileged."Nevertheless, I obviously don't make the decisions. Whether society progresses towards immediate equality or if it tries to get an eye for an eye, again, whatever happens happens. *Shrugs* I acknowledge the flaws in my perspective, and I don't even support said opinions on a moral standpoint, but if such ends have to meet to achieve "the greater good", then perhaps that's what must happen. But like I said, that's not up to me. I'm just along for the ride like everyone else.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 13:49:43 GMT -5
Any kind of abuse committed by women or men is worth considering. You're basically telling male abuse victims that the abuse they suffered from their partner "isn't worth considering." Exactly! And what about women abusing other women? As someone who has gone through that and has met others with similar experiences, this statement made by Violetsky almost reads as if mentioning those things happening, alongside women abusing men, "is harmful to many women-led movements" as well, at least according to Violetsky. Abuse has no gender restrictions or is only comitted by one specific gender. I honestly did not consider that. With all this being said I retract my initial statement and the mannerisms behind it. But I'm not the type of person to toss anything off the table, so I suppose I'll just leave it in the corner to gather dust for now.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 17, 2021 13:52:24 GMT -5
In the sense of men being abused by women, women have more privilege in this case. If men try to fight back to physical abuse, they'll suddenly be called the abuser. Also what Moonblazer said. Male abuse victims should not be helped less just because they are more "privileged."Nevertheless, I obviously don't make the decisions. Whether society progresses towards immediate equality or if it tries to get an eye for an eye, again, whatever happens happens. *Shrugs* I acknowledge the flaws in my perspective, and I don't even support said opinions on a moral standpoint, but if such ends have to meet to achieve "the greater good", then perhaps that's what must happen. But like I said, that's not up to me. I'm just along for the ride like everyone else. Such measures by society do not need to be achieved for the "greater good." Isolating male victims and telling them they should receive less help for being abused won't help us achieve equality. If it does happen, then society is simply being sexist again, but this time towards male victims of abuse. There is no need to push down one group to help another one rise up.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 17, 2021 13:54:28 GMT -5
In the sense of men being abused by women, women have more privilege in this case. If men try to fight back to physical abuse, they'll suddenly be called the abuser. Also what Moonblazer said. Male abuse victims should not be helped less just because they are more "privileged."Nevertheless, I obviously don't make the decisions. Whether society progresses towards immediate equality or if it tries to get an eye for an eye, again, whatever happens happens. *Shrugs* I acknowledge the flaws in my perspective, and I don't even support said opinions on a moral standpoint, but if such ends have to meet to achieve "the greater good", then perhaps that's what must happen. But like I said, that's not up to me. I'm just along for the ride like everyone else. You’re promoting the patriarchy by believing that male survivors should not be given the same support and care as any other survivor. You’re expecting them to shrug it off, “they’re a man, their abuse will never matter, they can’t suffer because they’re men, they should shut up and be a man about their abuse because they don’t truly suffer, they’re not a woman.” And you wonder why some men are so awful at talking about their experiences, because people like you will never believe that they truly suffer. Why would they ever talk about it? Nobody will believe them, a nasty nasty man who can’t possibly ever feel abuse. Your perspective is cruel and so unbelievably hypocritical, and you are a part of the very problem that you claim to be against.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 17, 2021 13:55:48 GMT -5
Nevertheless, I obviously don't make the decisions. Whether society progresses towards immediate equality or if it tries to get an eye for an eye, again, whatever happens happens. *Shrugs* I acknowledge the flaws in my perspective, and I don't even support said opinions on a moral standpoint, but if such ends have to meet to achieve "the greater good", then perhaps that's what must happen. But like I said, that's not up to me. I'm just along for the ride like everyone else. Such measures by society do not need to be achieved for the "greater good." Isolating male victims and telling them they should receive less help for being abused won't help us achieve equality. It should happen and if it does, then society is simply being sexist again, but this time towards male victims of abuse. There is no need to push down one group to help another one rise up. As for why I even posted it in the first place, I copied and pasted this from above: "As for my reasoning behind me posting it, I always strive to be as progressive as I can be. With that being said I am often conflicted on what this real definition implies, leading to me posting statements that I genuinely regret later. If apologizing to men makes me more of an anti-woman person (under the claims of some), then so be it." Well, again, we'll see what happens. If society chooses an eye for an eye, then so be it. If not, then cool.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 17, 2021 13:57:39 GMT -5
I feel like my thread might get locked soon...
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