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Post by Brightflame on Aug 30, 2016 22:01:06 GMT -5
This is for all of you trend-breakers like me who would burn Hollyleaf and Ivypool at the stake for their crimes. While these beloved "misunderstood" characters are doted on, we focus on other characters who deserve the spotlight as much as they do. Lionblaze, the sibling who gets the least love. Dovewing, hated on because she's a Mary Sue. I've even seen Alderpaw and Sparkpaw insulted and thrown in the gutter when they've had one book to prove themsleves. So, if you hate Hollyleaf and Ivypool, come on over and let's have a chat.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 31, 2016 6:20:09 GMT -5
I don't get it. I like Holly and Ivy, but I don't think Dovewing is a mary sue, and I don't like Lionblaze because he's a hypocrite and how he treated Heathertail. I've yet to see Alder and Spark hate, only hate toward the pairing with Needlepaw.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 7:11:46 GMT -5
I like hollyleaf.... Kinda
I love dovewing, hate ivypool and jayfeather, and I'm fine with lionblaze
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on Aug 31, 2016 8:51:41 GMT -5
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Post by Ginz on Aug 31, 2016 12:07:27 GMT -5
ok
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Post by poppy. on Aug 31, 2016 12:07:40 GMT -5
Hollyleaf became corrupted by her own misguided moral compass. Her extremely conservative ways mixed with the anxiety of not knowing who she is as a person (...cat) and the fact that she didn't meet the standards of her brothers who "hold the stars in their paws" as well as the stress of Ashfur trying to oh, I don't know, kill her and her siblings and "mother", thus finding out the secret of their birth as well as Ashfur wanting to sabotage them all led to an eventual mental/emotional break. Thus causing her to act out and kill Ashfur, regardless of the fact that she had strict morals. She has no reason to be hated for her cause as it would be deemed, in a court of law, as her being mentally ill and she'd be admitted to a mental facility in order to help her assimilate back to someone who is sound of mind, working through her anxieties and arguable depression. Any sort of conviction of burning her at the stake is outlandish and unnecessary as she did not do anything with the purpose or intent to kill, and therefore the logic of her deserving such punishment is flawed.
As far as Ivypool goes, she suffered in a similar manner. With the obvious mentality of sibling rivalry that all people (...and in this case cats) go through (yes, this is psychological fact), she therefore struggled with her identity as well. Was she heavily misguided? Yes. Did she do anything morally wrong once she was faced with the truth about the Dark Forest? No. She immediately worked her way to dropping her training and not returning. As well, she cut off her relations with Tigerheart in order to stay true to herself, her morals, and the Warrior Code. Thus she did not happen to commit any dire crimes, either, and therefore criminalizing her to a punishment of burning at the stake is also flawed logic, as in a court of law (or perhaps in this case, Starclan) Ivypool would not be convicted.
"Misunderstood" characters? Hollyleaf, surely. Her personality and actions are outside the social norm due to her mental break, and most people are incapable of understanding and accepting this. Ivypool? Not as much. We all have identity struggles especially when compared to a more "talented" sibling. It causes us to naturally rebel in an attempt to prove our worth or to get recognized. Therefore the logic of this is also flawed.
Heretofore I have come to the conclusion that this hate and decided punishment for these two characters is irrational.
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Post by Brightflame on Aug 31, 2016 18:41:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry that you feel I was accusing you! I'm not. I don't mean to stereotype all lovers of these two, I just mean to point out common trends that annoy me. What is your favorite thing about Holly and Ivy? I'll get back to you on this.
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Post by kinkajou on Aug 31, 2016 18:50:06 GMT -5
i luv my holly
ivy is cool
dovewing's nice
Lionblaze is annoying
alder is the cinnamon roll of cinnamon rolls
spark's cool
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Post by Brightflame on Aug 31, 2016 18:52:32 GMT -5
Hi pandean! So, I just wanted to let you know my thoughts. As I've said before and I'll say again, Hollyleaf's guilt doesn't erase what she's done. I'm not saying no second chances, I'm saying most all Hollyleaf fans agree that she does more good than harm. And while that may be true, unfortunately I can't share that opinion as of right now. Hollyleaf is still a liar and still a hypocrite. Also, she caused major problems for the Clans. Rather than make any attempt to fix them, she ran a away like a coward and hid in a hole with a dead guy for multiple years. Also, I have to disagree with the sentiment that she spent the rest of the books trying to make up for her crimes. She came back to the Clans....and was welcomed (for some reason)...fought in the Dark Forest battle....and died. I get they needed all the hell they could get, but she didn't provide much help anyway. She saved Ivypool and not much else. You could argue Ivypool's "grave importance" to the future of the Clans....except you'd be lying. She was evil for a time, then pulled a Snape and speed on them which DID prove important, I'll grant you that. But please. A bit of extra time to prepare didn't help them that much in the end, and Ivypool did squat in that battle. She wasn't even granted the honor of killing Hawkfrost. Both characters are melodramatic, unnecessary, and didn't live up to their full potential in my opinion. However, it's just that! Making this thread, I don't know if I thought I get more people agreeing with me than not...which would be a dumb assumption....Oh well! Thanks for sharing your opinion, it's a solid one!
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Post by Brightflame on Aug 31, 2016 18:53:40 GMT -5
Can't argue with that (but you insulted Lionblaze sooo) oh well, adorable Eevee makes up for it
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Post by Brightflame on Aug 31, 2016 18:57:10 GMT -5
....wow. Very rarely do I come across people who make valid points and not just the usual. This receives high praise from me, for the logic is sound. I would have more points to make, but you seemed a little put out already and I don't want to start a flame war. Thank you for posting this, it makes sense. I don't agree, and I don't know if I ever will. But I can say you've come closest to changing my mind. And boy, have I had an earful about this
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Post by Brightflame on Aug 31, 2016 18:58:37 GMT -5
 Lovely.XD. This is pretty good. Read my other posts! |
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on Aug 31, 2016 19:04:32 GMT -5
I did. I just disagree, so I posted a meme.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 19:08:36 GMT -5
I hate Ivypool but I love Hollyleaf
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Post by mEmE on Aug 31, 2016 19:14:22 GMT -5
I did. I just disagree, so I posted a meme. OMG DANK MEMES All aside, I was kinda iffy with hollyleaf with the whole Ashfur situation, even though after she "disappeared" it was pretty obvious and predictable that she didn't die and she would come back. Ivypool I kind of liked because she was one of the only cats in thunderclan that was actually explained why she would be tempted to go to the dark forest. All the other cats just felt like they were going to the DF just because the plot said so. |
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on Aug 31, 2016 20:08:58 GMT -5
Your order is reversed. Just FYI.
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Post by Ligerfrost on Aug 31, 2016 22:00:35 GMT -5
I don't like ivypool because I feel she is a pointless character. She was only there to give us a view of the Dark Forest. Her spot could have been given to a different Clan Cat. At least then her withholding information would have made sense. Instead people make excuses for her like: " She didn't trust the three" (Then why volunteer to spy for them at all?) Or " She feared for her life." (She's a warrior, what separates warriors from rogues and kittypets? They're loyalty to protect and provide for their Clan. When a cat becomes a warrior they vow to give their life to protect their Clan.) She is an overrated character to be honest. People say "Well she fought three cats at once" but fail to mention she was losing the fight until Tigerheart and Hollyleaf came to her aid. Her whole ark was boring to me the stereotypical jealous sibling subplot... What's worse is this was used not once or twice but three times in the Oots arc and the other two subplots were far more interesting then Ivypool's.
Hollyleaf I don't like because I do see her running away as cowardice. She admitted that she killed Ashfur only because she was angry. Not to protect anyone and it wasn't an accident.
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