I'm rereading OotS again...
Jul 26, 2021 9:31:51 GMT -5
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dawn, Moonblazer, and 9 more like this
Post by Aqua on Jul 26, 2021 9:31:51 GMT -5
.. and I'm realizing that Dovewing and Ivypool are actually really well written characters.
I don't think they're the best characters in the series, but I like how the Erins wrote them. Here's why I think this.
Dovewing:
> She struggles with self-loathing because of the prophecy tearing her friendship with Ivypool apart. She blames herself because she can't help Ivypool training in the Dark Forest, and hates that she has to spy on the clans to get information on who they can or can't trust. Because of this it feels disloyal to Dovewing, and she's resentful that the prophecy is making Ivypool miserable.
> She has PTSD. After Swoop died, Dovewing was having nightmares and couldn't sleep. She was thinking about Swoop's death for months, and was showing signs of physical and mental illnesses because of how much she was affected by Swoop's death.
> Dovewing is lonely. This is why she went after Tigerheart. A lot of cats looked up to her as a hero, because of her powers, but the prophecy tore her and Ivypool apart. Tigerheart was the only one who wanted to get to know her better, and she decided to give him a chance. Jayfeather never really treated her or Ivypool with respect, and Lionblaze was harsh to her about her abilities, and with Ivypool avoiding her.. well, I can imagine how lonely Dovewing must feel. She's very happy when she does spend time with Ivypool, but when Ivypool ignores her she's miserable.
> Dovewing is very determined. If she thinks it's right for her she'll do it. She wanted to see Sedgewhisker no matter what and nothing was going to stop her because she saw the WindClan warrior as a friend instead of an enemy. She was also very determined to leave the Clans to protect her kits even though she was scared.
> Dovewing is stubborn. She doesn't listen to anyone. Jay and Lion told her she can't have friends outside her Clanmates but she vowed to keep Tigerheart and made sure nothing was going to break her friendship with him.
> She isn't the brightest character in the series. Even though Dovewing truly felt like she had to protect herself and her kits, she ran off without thinking twice about any of the consequences for leaving the clans and her sister without protection. She constantly breaks the warrior code, multiple times, like seeing Sedgewhisker because she's worried and doesn't think about getting in trouble for it, and makes many other poor choices that hurts other cats. She ends up losing her ThunderClan reputation because she left, and ended up disappointing Bumblestripe. She doesn't think twice at all about the things she does.
> Dovewing is manipulative. She'll put a lot of pressure on cats if things don't go her way.
> She's kind of a jerk. Dovewing will use Bumblestripe to move on from Tigerheart because she didn't know any other way how to do it. She constantly snaps at him, goes after Ivypool's insecurities when she doesn't listen to her about Tigerstar (original) and says she hates her, blames Tigerheart for using her even though she was the one who told him about the catmint in the first place.
> She's compassionate. Dovewing is very patient with kittypets and she's very caring. She cares a lot about other cats outside her Clanmates. She was good to Minty and worried about Sedgewhisker and the other Dark Forest trainees when the Clans wanted to exile them and genuinely felt it wasn't fair to punish them for making a mistake.
But the problem is, it's all wasted on Tigerheart. Dovewing becomes a completely different character. I understand why she doesn't care about the warrior code. She never really followed it, not really, and I can't help but wonder if the prophecy and other cats expecting too much out of her is what made her dislike the code even more. She would rather have friends than battle and fight. She'll do anything to protect those she loves, but can be pretty manipulative if things don't go her way and puts a lot of stress on others. She leaves her clan and her family to keep Tigerheart and her kits together. She wanted to be with Ivypool but felt it was the right thing to do to keep her family together.
I really think the prophecy put a lot of stress on Dovewing and lowered her self-esteem. She thinks she has to look after everyone because she hears more than most but Lionblaze has to constantly remind her that it's not her job to protect everyone. She blamed herself for many accidents and deaths and even feels she has to save Ivypaw from the Dark Forest and did everything she could to get her to listen about Tigerstar.
All in all, Dovewing is a very solid character who's actually really interesting. She's REALLY flawed but has good traits in her too. I'm just disappointed this wasn't looked into more and she crawled back to Tigerheart because she feels like a completely different character after doing that.
Going onto Ivypool:
I've been reading her chapters, and while I'm liking her more, she feels different.
I don't like her as IvyPAW, but I'll note that IvyPAW is actually a very well written character. Dovepaw is good, but I was surprised to find myself enjoying Ivypaw's moments a little bit more. She pissed me off. Multiple times. I don't like her at all. But I can't deny that Ivypaw is actually well written for what we got in Omen of the Stars.
> Ivypaw was manipulated by Tigerstar and truly believed she was doing the right thing. She's easily fooled and was very naive as a paw. Because of this, she caused a battle between Blackstar and Firestar, telling them that ShadowClan wanted to steal territory. Firestar lost a life, and Russetfur died for it.
> Ivypaw is very insecure. She can't handle not having Dovepaw with her and constantly compares herself to Dovepaw. It's what started this jealousy after all! She couldn't understand why Dovepaw was "ignoring" her and then ignored her herself when she started to join the Dark Forest, determined to train harder than anyone in the clan.
> She can be petty. Now, don't get mad at me and start debating about it and defending her. That's not why I'm making this topic. But Ivypaw is very petty. She thinks Dovepaw is running off to train because she (Dovepaw) saw Ivypaw might become better than her (this didn't really happen, Dovepaw began to see Tigerheart, but Ivypaw saw this before she caught them together). She also purposely ignores Dovepaw when they get mad at each other and argue, knowing that she can't avoid her sister forever and thought this herself.
> She has always had a strong sense of protecting her clan. Even though I don't like how she caused the battle in Fading Echoes, she truly believed ShadowClan wanted to take over ThunderClan's territory. She's extremely loyal and does everything she can to help her clan. It's part of what I actually like about Ivypaw, she's willing to do anything to protect her Clanmates and her sister. She has a strong sense of looking after others.
I actually really enjoyed how Ivypaw was written. She was very interesting even though she made me angry multiple times. I still don't believe she was fair to Dovepaw. But the only reason why I mentioned her as a paw is because I'm breaking this into two parts. Ivypool feels like a completely different characters. When I was reading her chapters, I understood why people view her as a "camera for the Dark Forest". Ivypaw's character was focused a lot on her growth and personality. But Ivypool? Her chapters are specifically aimed toward her Clanmates and the Dark Forest. The books stopped focusing on her character as much. Ivypool's personality is definitely still there, don't get me wrong. I'm understanding that she's smart, strong, sympathetic and knows how to deal with pressure. But her chapters focus on the details more on other characters and the Dark Forest instead of herself and her own PoV. Her thoughts appeared less often after she became a warrior. Ivypool isn't bland, but it feels like the books focused on other things instead of IVYPOOL. However, I've caught a lot of her personality even if it doesn't show it much.
> Ivypool is definitely clever. This was from Lionblaze's PoV, but when they played games she was smart and won because of her planning ahead of time. Because of her Dark Forest skills, it has helped her become stronger and smarter at hunting.
> She obviously has honor. Ivypool feels guilt when she uses her Dark Forest skills because she genuinely feels it's disloyal. And like I said before, she's determined to protect her clan.
> Ivypool is mentally and physically strong. For obvious reasons, she got physically stronger from DF training. She also deals with a lot of mental problems like her insecurities and learned how to grow out of that and eventually moved on from her struggles and horrible memories from the Dark Forest (killing Antpelt, for example).
But my problem with Ivypool's PTSD, I noticed, is that when we do see her have symptoms, but it's shown from other characters' PoVs. This is what I mean when I say that her character isn't focused on as much. Jayfeather notices her anxiety, but Ivypool doesn't show it very often in her own chapters. It's been told maybe once or twice? And after that the books dropped her PTSD completely.
Ivypool's character grows even more in AVoS. She still protects Dovewing but becomes a lot more understanding. Due to her own insecurities as an apprentice, she understands Twigpaw's feelings because she went through a similar situation as her back in OotS.
And it's been obvious since day 1 that she always cared about her sister, but it got to the point to where it ended up hurting cats. Because of her worries about DovexTiger, Ivypool wanted her Clanmates to stop suggesting to find Twigpaw's mother because of them. I'm aware that it's also because ThunderClan can't spare any Clanmates, but my point still stands.
She despises Tigerheart. Because of his Tigerheart treated her, she likely despises the guy. She was very angry at him for letting Dovewing run off without doing anything to stop her. She was also very angry at him and Dovewing for making irresponsible choices that affected both of their lives and put Dovewing in a lot of danger. Because of him letting Dovewing run off, she genuinely felt like Tigerheart was a horrible mate who didn't care about Dovewing's safety.
So all in all, while I think Ivypool is a very good character, BUT most of her character development doesn't show until after AVoS. She was great as Ivypaw, but in OotS as Ivypool, her character shows but it's mostly from Lionblaze's or Jayfeather's perspectives. It doesn't show much of her character from her OWN PoV.
I also believe her moments with Fernsong needed to be shown more often, but I only crossed this out because she was a minor character at this, barely shown in the books.
Dovewing and Ivypool are very well done characters. But the way how they're executed is done poorly. Dovewing should have had more focus on her growth on her own, and Ivypool's character growth should have been shown more in her own chapters than other characters' PoVs.
I guess I like both characters now! I think they're both very interesting because of the way how they're written. I've been rereading OotS for a while and definitely found it interesting that these characters are handled differently compared to the others in the series. But Ivypool actually feels s little more consistent, whereas Dovewing isn't because of her indecisiveness and the fact that Kate and Cherith aren't keeping her consistent.
I don't think they're the best characters in the series, but I like how the Erins wrote them. Here's why I think this.
Dovewing:
> She struggles with self-loathing because of the prophecy tearing her friendship with Ivypool apart. She blames herself because she can't help Ivypool training in the Dark Forest, and hates that she has to spy on the clans to get information on who they can or can't trust. Because of this it feels disloyal to Dovewing, and she's resentful that the prophecy is making Ivypool miserable.
> She has PTSD. After Swoop died, Dovewing was having nightmares and couldn't sleep. She was thinking about Swoop's death for months, and was showing signs of physical and mental illnesses because of how much she was affected by Swoop's death.
> Dovewing is lonely. This is why she went after Tigerheart. A lot of cats looked up to her as a hero, because of her powers, but the prophecy tore her and Ivypool apart. Tigerheart was the only one who wanted to get to know her better, and she decided to give him a chance. Jayfeather never really treated her or Ivypool with respect, and Lionblaze was harsh to her about her abilities, and with Ivypool avoiding her.. well, I can imagine how lonely Dovewing must feel. She's very happy when she does spend time with Ivypool, but when Ivypool ignores her she's miserable.
> Dovewing is very determined. If she thinks it's right for her she'll do it. She wanted to see Sedgewhisker no matter what and nothing was going to stop her because she saw the WindClan warrior as a friend instead of an enemy. She was also very determined to leave the Clans to protect her kits even though she was scared.
> Dovewing is stubborn. She doesn't listen to anyone. Jay and Lion told her she can't have friends outside her Clanmates but she vowed to keep Tigerheart and made sure nothing was going to break her friendship with him.
> She isn't the brightest character in the series. Even though Dovewing truly felt like she had to protect herself and her kits, she ran off without thinking twice about any of the consequences for leaving the clans and her sister without protection. She constantly breaks the warrior code, multiple times, like seeing Sedgewhisker because she's worried and doesn't think about getting in trouble for it, and makes many other poor choices that hurts other cats. She ends up losing her ThunderClan reputation because she left, and ended up disappointing Bumblestripe. She doesn't think twice at all about the things she does.
> Dovewing is manipulative. She'll put a lot of pressure on cats if things don't go her way.
> She's kind of a jerk. Dovewing will use Bumblestripe to move on from Tigerheart because she didn't know any other way how to do it. She constantly snaps at him, goes after Ivypool's insecurities when she doesn't listen to her about Tigerstar (original) and says she hates her, blames Tigerheart for using her even though she was the one who told him about the catmint in the first place.
> She's compassionate. Dovewing is very patient with kittypets and she's very caring. She cares a lot about other cats outside her Clanmates. She was good to Minty and worried about Sedgewhisker and the other Dark Forest trainees when the Clans wanted to exile them and genuinely felt it wasn't fair to punish them for making a mistake.
But the problem is, it's all wasted on Tigerheart. Dovewing becomes a completely different character. I understand why she doesn't care about the warrior code. She never really followed it, not really, and I can't help but wonder if the prophecy and other cats expecting too much out of her is what made her dislike the code even more. She would rather have friends than battle and fight. She'll do anything to protect those she loves, but can be pretty manipulative if things don't go her way and puts a lot of stress on others. She leaves her clan and her family to keep Tigerheart and her kits together. She wanted to be with Ivypool but felt it was the right thing to do to keep her family together.
I really think the prophecy put a lot of stress on Dovewing and lowered her self-esteem. She thinks she has to look after everyone because she hears more than most but Lionblaze has to constantly remind her that it's not her job to protect everyone. She blamed herself for many accidents and deaths and even feels she has to save Ivypaw from the Dark Forest and did everything she could to get her to listen about Tigerstar.
All in all, Dovewing is a very solid character who's actually really interesting. She's REALLY flawed but has good traits in her too. I'm just disappointed this wasn't looked into more and she crawled back to Tigerheart because she feels like a completely different character after doing that.
Going onto Ivypool:
I've been reading her chapters, and while I'm liking her more, she feels different.
I don't like her as IvyPAW, but I'll note that IvyPAW is actually a very well written character. Dovepaw is good, but I was surprised to find myself enjoying Ivypaw's moments a little bit more. She pissed me off. Multiple times. I don't like her at all. But I can't deny that Ivypaw is actually well written for what we got in Omen of the Stars.
> Ivypaw was manipulated by Tigerstar and truly believed she was doing the right thing. She's easily fooled and was very naive as a paw. Because of this, she caused a battle between Blackstar and Firestar, telling them that ShadowClan wanted to steal territory. Firestar lost a life, and Russetfur died for it.
> Ivypaw is very insecure. She can't handle not having Dovepaw with her and constantly compares herself to Dovepaw. It's what started this jealousy after all! She couldn't understand why Dovepaw was "ignoring" her and then ignored her herself when she started to join the Dark Forest, determined to train harder than anyone in the clan.
> She can be petty. Now, don't get mad at me and start debating about it and defending her. That's not why I'm making this topic. But Ivypaw is very petty. She thinks Dovepaw is running off to train because she (Dovepaw) saw Ivypaw might become better than her (this didn't really happen, Dovepaw began to see Tigerheart, but Ivypaw saw this before she caught them together). She also purposely ignores Dovepaw when they get mad at each other and argue, knowing that she can't avoid her sister forever and thought this herself.
> She has always had a strong sense of protecting her clan. Even though I don't like how she caused the battle in Fading Echoes, she truly believed ShadowClan wanted to take over ThunderClan's territory. She's extremely loyal and does everything she can to help her clan. It's part of what I actually like about Ivypaw, she's willing to do anything to protect her Clanmates and her sister. She has a strong sense of looking after others.
I actually really enjoyed how Ivypaw was written. She was very interesting even though she made me angry multiple times. I still don't believe she was fair to Dovepaw. But the only reason why I mentioned her as a paw is because I'm breaking this into two parts. Ivypool feels like a completely different characters. When I was reading her chapters, I understood why people view her as a "camera for the Dark Forest". Ivypaw's character was focused a lot on her growth and personality. But Ivypool? Her chapters are specifically aimed toward her Clanmates and the Dark Forest. The books stopped focusing on her character as much. Ivypool's personality is definitely still there, don't get me wrong. I'm understanding that she's smart, strong, sympathetic and knows how to deal with pressure. But her chapters focus on the details more on other characters and the Dark Forest instead of herself and her own PoV. Her thoughts appeared less often after she became a warrior. Ivypool isn't bland, but it feels like the books focused on other things instead of IVYPOOL. However, I've caught a lot of her personality even if it doesn't show it much.
> Ivypool is definitely clever. This was from Lionblaze's PoV, but when they played games she was smart and won because of her planning ahead of time. Because of her Dark Forest skills, it has helped her become stronger and smarter at hunting.
> She obviously has honor. Ivypool feels guilt when she uses her Dark Forest skills because she genuinely feels it's disloyal. And like I said before, she's determined to protect her clan.
> Ivypool is mentally and physically strong. For obvious reasons, she got physically stronger from DF training. She also deals with a lot of mental problems like her insecurities and learned how to grow out of that and eventually moved on from her struggles and horrible memories from the Dark Forest (killing Antpelt, for example).
But my problem with Ivypool's PTSD, I noticed, is that when we do see her have symptoms, but it's shown from other characters' PoVs. This is what I mean when I say that her character isn't focused on as much. Jayfeather notices her anxiety, but Ivypool doesn't show it very often in her own chapters. It's been told maybe once or twice? And after that the books dropped her PTSD completely.
Ivypool's character grows even more in AVoS. She still protects Dovewing but becomes a lot more understanding. Due to her own insecurities as an apprentice, she understands Twigpaw's feelings because she went through a similar situation as her back in OotS.
And it's been obvious since day 1 that she always cared about her sister, but it got to the point to where it ended up hurting cats. Because of her worries about DovexTiger, Ivypool wanted her Clanmates to stop suggesting to find Twigpaw's mother because of them. I'm aware that it's also because ThunderClan can't spare any Clanmates, but my point still stands.
She despises Tigerheart. Because of his Tigerheart treated her, she likely despises the guy. She was very angry at him for letting Dovewing run off without doing anything to stop her. She was also very angry at him and Dovewing for making irresponsible choices that affected both of their lives and put Dovewing in a lot of danger. Because of him letting Dovewing run off, she genuinely felt like Tigerheart was a horrible mate who didn't care about Dovewing's safety.
So all in all, while I think Ivypool is a very good character, BUT most of her character development doesn't show until after AVoS. She was great as Ivypaw, but in OotS as Ivypool, her character shows but it's mostly from Lionblaze's or Jayfeather's perspectives. It doesn't show much of her character from her OWN PoV.
I also believe her moments with Fernsong needed to be shown more often, but I only crossed this out because she was a minor character at this, barely shown in the books.
Dovewing and Ivypool are very well done characters. But the way how they're executed is done poorly. Dovewing should have had more focus on her growth on her own, and Ivypool's character growth should have been shown more in her own chapters than other characters' PoVs.
I guess I like both characters now! I think they're both very interesting because of the way how they're written. I've been rereading OotS for a while and definitely found it interesting that these characters are handled differently compared to the others in the series. But Ivypool actually feels s little more consistent, whereas Dovewing isn't because of her indecisiveness and the fact that Kate and Cherith aren't keeping her consistent.