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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 17, 2021 18:54:56 GMT -5
I had an idea for a discussion/game thing, based off of the Opinions game thread here and @juniperclaw 's thread asking about main characters codebreaking.
One person will describe a situation that they either think breaks the Warrior Code or think is a grey area. The next person will explain how it does or doesn't break the Code (according to their personal opinion), then they'll provide a new scenario for the next person.
We'll basically all get to be Warrior Cats lawyers, lol.
I'll start. If a cat sneaks out at night to speak to a cat from another Clan, but they have no intentions of betrayal or starting a relationship, is this breaking the Warrior Code?
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Post by Hollyfall on Jul 17, 2021 19:00:33 GMT -5
This this an interesting idea! I'd say it really depends on the reason you're sneaking out. If it's to try and get help for whatever reason, then no. But if you're doing it just for fun or to cause trouble, then yes.
If a cat wants to try living as a kittypet, therefore leaving their Clan, family, and all that behind, but then decides it's not for them and returns to the Clan, is it still breaking the code because they technically still rejected that lifestyle by returning to the Clan?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 19:03:25 GMT -5
I think that is fine, it kind of reminds me of Rumspringa or something, which giving the culture of the clans, it kind of fits.
Is it breaking the warrior code if a cat refuses to alert the clan about a potential threat?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 17, 2021 19:10:28 GMT -5
If they keep it strictly to themselves, then absolutely, because they're being disloyal and putting their Clan in danger. But if they tell just the leader (so keeping it from the Clan as a whole to prevent panic, but still telling someone in authority), then no.
Telling someone from another Clan something that's technically secret, but you don't think will cause any harm.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 17, 2021 20:12:30 GMT -5
I'd say that that is very iffy. If it's secret, then it's presumably secret for a reason. If a cat's superior - leader, deputy, or even warrior if said cat is an apprentice - decided this, then they probably did so because they believe that they would either open themselves to appearing weak to other clans or because it might cause tension. As such, you'd either need a really good reason to reveal it against their wishes and judgement. This doesn't sound like a question of loyalty, it really just seems to be more of judgement. Take Swiftpaw's revelation that Brokentail was still alive and being sheltered in Thunderclan. That was a secret that he casually revealed to some Shadowclan apprentices and obviously didn't think would do any harm. Did going against that judgement end up hurting his clan in the long run? Absolutely, it caused a three-Clan war with Thunderclan as the focus of it and permanently poisoned Tallstar's relationship with Bluestar. Would I say he broke the warrior code? No. He did not intend to betray anyone, had no intention of malice, didn't do anything against orders, and clearly realized a few minutes later (after Fireheart directly made it an order to not tell anyone) that he screwed up. However, if it's also weighing on your mind and you think that it won't cause any harm because you trust the other individual to keep it confidential AND you trust their judgement enough to believe that they could have ideas or a solution, then you could technically argue that you're serving your clan by discussing it without opening them up to harm.
Very particular situation here. Say that a Thunderclan leader has put together a patrol to try retaking Sunningrocks. A warrior refuses on the grounds that it technically is no longer their territory, that it originally wasn't their territory to begin with, and that trespassing on another clan's territory is against the warrior code (And, not that they'd mention it to the leader, they also think that the Sunningrocks conflict is stupid.) The clan leader reiterates that it's a direct order. Is refusing to join still breaking the warrior code? Is joining breaking it? Are they trapped in a situation where they're breaking the warrior code no matter what they pick?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 20:17:36 GMT -5
I don't think it's breaking the code, because the code states that the leader's word is the warrior code, and well, Onestar refused to honor the code about helping out other clans, he broke the putting kits in danger code, and he still made it into StarClan. He's not the only leader who broke several codes either, so that seems to be the one StarClan values the strongest.
Is it breaking the code if a cat is too weak to continue hunting, so they have a quick bite while they're out hunting, to be able to hurt more food for the clan?
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Post by Rainsplash on Jul 17, 2021 20:24:30 GMT -5
Since the warrior code says you mustn't eat before queens and elders, and during hunting, it is against the warrior code.
Is it breaking the code when a warrior confesses their love to their Clan's medicine cat?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 17, 2021 20:27:18 GMT -5
Yes. The code specifically states that the clan must be fed first. If they have doubts, they should haul what they got back to the camp and run it by their superior. If they were legitimately so starved even before heading out that they'll be on death's door if they don't eat before getting back, then... well, it would still be breaking the code, but then they shouldn't have been sent out in the first place and the codebreaking in question isn't something they should be faulted for.
I was too slow again. Technically, the code only says that the medicine cat cannot, not that the warrior cannot. He is clearly incredibly stupid, but he is not breaking the code. If I were his leader, I would tell him that he can help his beloved medicine cat by doing tick duty for three moons; he will have to do something really unpleasant as comeuppance for his poor judgement and the warrior code would require that he actually do it. He will probably also get to put up with a very embarrassed or pissed medicine cat that doesn't appreciate his shenanigans giving him orders (though if he's into that then whoopee) and a bunch of elders talking his ear off for being a dumbass.
The warrior code states that medicine cats cannot have mates or kits. However, a particular Shadowclan medicine cat has decided that he will be "just friends" with a pretty Thunderclan she-cat and they have adopted three baby ducklings - named Waddlefang, Beaktooth, and Yellowfur - that they learned were motherless; they will care for them until they reach adulthood. Have they broken the code?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 17, 2021 23:27:19 GMT -5
I love your scenarios. XD
Actual ducklings? That's fine. It's like having pets. I wouldn't say two roommates who have a dog are dating, so I wouldn't say an MC fostering ducklings is against the code.
A RiverClan warrior and a WindClan warrior are romantically involved with each other and talk to each other when possible, but stay loyal to their Clans, continue to do their duties, and don't complain when their Clans get into fights. No kits come into the picture.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 18, 2021 2:11:01 GMT -5
I would argue that they have not broken the code. They did not act on their feelings in any way that would betray their obligations, continue to serve their clans, and don't get up to any series mischief. Simply having feelings isn't against the code and they controlled themselves in order to avoid doing anything that would be against the code.
A Windclan warrior has been taken prisoner by Shadowclan after that warrior killed a Shadowclan warrior in a skirmish. The Shadowclan leader intends to personally escort the Windclan leader back to their camp to discuss the death and punishment, declaring that the matter should be settled without further bloodshed. However, Windclan reacts quickly and launches a raid on Shadowclan to free their warrior. The Windclan warrior nearly gets away, but he is pursued and slain by the sister of the Shadowclan warrior that died in the original skirmish.
Did the vengeful Shadowclan warrior break the code?
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Post by Rainsplash on Jul 18, 2021 2:41:27 GMT -5
If the killing was an accident, no it's not, but if the sister wanted to get revenge and purposely killed him, yes.
Is manipulating a cat to kill somebody against the warrior code?
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Post by downfalls on Jul 18, 2021 2:58:33 GMT -5
i would say yes, since killing not based on self-defense would be a part of the code.
a medicine cat decides to up and leave without anyone seeing or knowing. is this breaking the code?
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 18, 2021 3:58:11 GMT -5
Given we don't have anything on the Medicine Cat code (There is no official one) I can't say anything there. Medicine Cats are separate from the Warrior Code.
If a cat comes across kits from a neighboring clan in desperate need, but the leader insists to not help those kits (Make it a shitty leader), but the cat takes them in anyways to help them survive, would that be breaking the code?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 18, 2021 4:26:50 GMT -5
In my opinion, the "Leader's Law" code comes last in cases where it directly contradicts another code. So no, the cat is not breaking the code by protecting the kits. However, the leader is, because he's not following the "kits must be protected" rule.
Was Squirrelflight breaking the Code when she took in the Three?
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Post by Rainsplash on Jul 18, 2021 5:37:09 GMT -5
No.
If you catch prey on your side, but lose grip of it and lose your balance at the same time and stumble into the other side of the border and you grip it again, is it breaking the code?
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jul 18, 2021 9:32:40 GMT -5
No. It was an accident and it's hard to let go just like that. But it may depend how close the prey is on the other side. If you have to dash after it for a few seconds, yes, but if it's just inches from your front paws, no.
Was it against the warrior code for Bluestar to appoint Cinderpaw and Brackenpaw when they were below six moons old? The Clan did urgently need more warriors.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 18, 2021 11:47:57 GMT -5
It was. "Urgently needing warriors" wasn't a good excuse back when they first had to make that a part of the code and it's not a good excuse now.
Two warriors are patrolling near Twoleg territory when a tree branch breaks off and falls on one of them. The injury may not be fatal, but he's sustained a serious injury and has been knocked unconscious. They are at the furthest reaches of their territory; the camp is very far away, and the second warrior is unsure if the injured one can be left alone for too long (or if cats can even move him, for that matter). She decides to get the attention of a couple of adult Twolegs and points her fallen Clanmate out to them in the hopes of getting him some help; they pick him up and take him into their home. She follows them at a distance to keep an eye on him while deliberately leaving scent behind to make sure her Clanmates back at camp can track her if they reach the area where the tree branch hit. The Twolegs notice and accurately guess that she's there to make sure no harm comes to her Clanmate and decide to offer her some food in the meantime while taking steps to ensure the injured tom gets better. She begrudgingly accepts. When the tom wakes up, she explains the situation to him; he thanks her but advises her to return home and let the others know. She decides against it on the grounds that she's worried about leaving him behind when he still needs to rest and reasons that once their Clanmates notice that they're missing, a patrol will be sent out. The rest of the day and a night passes; a patrol finally arrives and finds the she-cat on stakeout in front of the Twolegs' home. She explains the situation.
Was the she-cat breaking the code by enlisting the help of Twolegs to help her Clanmate? Was she breaking the code by accepting food rather than leave her Clanmate behind to get food elsewhere? Was she breaking the code by deciding to stay at the Twoleg residence instead of returning home to alert her clan about her whereabouts and what happened?
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Post by Lionstrike on Jul 18, 2021 14:56:17 GMT -5
No, the she-cat was making a tough call on the first two questions, seeing as there was no available help nearby and based on the tom's condition, she went for anything she could. The food that was offered was more convenient and the only reason she ate it is to watch over the tom while he was injured. I feel that she made a personal choice not to return to camp, just due to the fact that she was worried about her clanmate. I think that this is a "gray area" situation for the third question.
A kit nearing six moons (apprenticeship), after getting lost in their clan's territory, and weak from hunger, notices a rabbit on the other side of the border to an opposing clan. There is no food in sight on their side of the border, and there is a 50/50 chance the kit will find his way home and not die from starvation. The kit goes across the border and catches and eats the rabbit. Due to the code rule about not denying a kit from any clan help if it is needed, would the kit have broken the code?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 18, 2021 15:43:45 GMT -5
I would say that the code hasn't been broken. It's not like what the code was meant to refer to, like a warrior stealing prey as a full adult. This is literally a child who is lost, hungry, and probably going to die.
A Riverclan tom and a Thunderclan she-cat who loved each other dearly but never had kits, betrayed their clans, or ever really acted on their feelings as warriors are both getting really old; they've pushed themselves to the best of their abilities, but they are just getting slower, heal from injuries slower, and just aren't as sharp as they used to be. Both of their leaders are urging them to retire to the elder's dens and enjoy the rest of their lives in peace after years of service to their clans. After considering it, the two decide to inform their leaders that they will retire, but intend to leave the clans for "parts unknown"; they don't tell the rest of the clan, but they reveal to their respective leaders in private that they are in love with a warrior-going-on-elder from another clan and that while they have served their clans faithfully without letting those feelings get in the way, they would rather spend their last days together and somewhere else in peace.
Are the two breaking the warrior code or betraying their clans to choose to live the rest of their lives together somewhere else?
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Post by Fire the Watcher of the vale on Jul 18, 2021 16:22:00 GMT -5
I don't think so, considering the fact that elders serve no purpose aside from maybe advice and very rarely will fight to protect the camp. Since they've already served their clan and no longer have a duty to uphold, the rule regarding friends from other clans will no longer apply, as they will never meet in battle. Doesn't mean cats wouldn't like it if they found out, but it shouldn't technically be a violation
If a clan leader leads an attack on an opposing clan after catching them trespassing, then takes the attack to the opposing clan's territory, wouldn't it be in violation of the code for trespassing on another clan's territory?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 18, 2021 17:56:07 GMT -5
Yes, but it's a pretty understandable one. The alternative is constantly giving the impression that they can raid your clan's camp and you won't do anything back besides chase them off.
A leader tells their warrior to backflip off a cliff. There is nothing in the warrior code saying that a leader cannot tell a warrior to backflip off a cliff. The warrior code says that the leader's word is law. The warrior refuses. Has the warrior broken the code?
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Post by Fire the Watcher of the vale on Jul 18, 2021 18:14:39 GMT -5
No, because the leader's order would be in violation of the warrior code, as it would actively harm their clan and the leader would know it.
There isn't anything actively stating that stealing a kit is against the code if you thought it'd be better for the kit.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 18, 2021 23:24:47 GMT -5
I feel like that violates the spirit of the code even if it's never explicitly stated. Kind of like the backflip thing I gave.
The Windclan deputy takes a patrol to meet with Riverclan's leader over claims of stolen prey. The patrol happens to cross the Riverclan medicine cat at the gorge, who is being accompanied by an apprentice (not hers) as she travels to gather herbs. The Riverclan apprentice isn't happy to see Windclan warriors on their territory and immediately gets hostile; a Windclan apprentice, who joined the patrol because his mentor was asked to participate, is all too happy to let his temper fly. Before the deputy can stop him, he tackles the Riverclan apprentice and the two start tumbling to the edge of the gorge. Just as quickly, the Riverclan medicine cat rushes over to try to stop them, but her paws slip on a wet patch of rock. The Windclan deputy lunges forward, his mind racing as his paws fly. He realizes several things in short order: 1) he can only save one of the three; the positioning of all cats present means that none of his other allies can reach one of the other cats about to fall before they do without risking crashing into him and sending all four over the edge 2) Riverclan only has one medicine cat and she has no apprentice; if she dies, the whole of Riverclan will be dealt a devastating blow that they will take ages to recover from 3) his decision will either destroy Windclan's relationship with Riverclan for years to come or earn him the undying hatred of multiple of his own Clanmates if whoever he chooses to save is not their own apprentice
Listening to both what his mind and heart tell him is right, the Windclan deputy seizes the enemy medicine cat by the scruff and just barely manages to yank her back to safety; the two apprentices tumble flailing and screaming to their deaths below as the rest of the patrol watch in silenced horror.
Windclan is split down the middle by their deputy's seemingly unthinkable choice. The apprentice's family and mentor swear to never forgive him for choosing to save the medicine cat of an enemy clan over one of their own young ones, while no small number of other Clanmates also come to regard him with disgust - with some even saying that no matter what he may claim, he surely must have had an ulterior, much more selfish reason for choosing to save the pretty, well-liked Riverclan medicine cat. A decent number of others rally in support for their deputy, however, arguing that no matter what happened, two cats were going to die that day, and he couldn't be faulted for choosing to save an irreplaceable cat who served a critical role in protecting the health and well-being of others - even if she was not part of their clan. Some even go further and say that the deputy shouldn't be held responsible when the apprentices should have known better than to pick a fight somewhere so dangerous and that the Windclan apprentice's mentor should have controlled his charge. The deputy believed with all his heart that he made the best decision, but all the certainty in the world can not help him forgive himself. Believing that he can now never hope to lead a clan that may never trust him to protect them again, he requests that his leader demote him back to normal warrior status and select another deputy that will become her successor. The leader considers his request but ultimately denies it on the grounds that whether or not his decision was right is something she cannot decide and that the only reasonable consequence she can put upon him is to make him live with his decision and continue serving as deputy while earning back the trust of those who have come to hate him.
A fair number of Riverclan - chief among them the family of the deceased Riverclan apprentice - grow even more hostile towards Windclan, blaming them for the death of their young apprentice. However, most of Riverclan's senior warriors and leadership caution against letting hatred fester, stating that that sort of hot-headedness was what led to the deaths of the two apprentices to begin with. Many Riverclan members develop a significant amount of respect for the Windclan deputy as well, being well-aware of how much worse off they would be if he'd acted differently and how much his choice must have cost him.
Many different cats are of many different minds. What do you think? Did the deputy break the code?
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Post by Lionstrike on Jul 19, 2021 15:31:53 GMT -5
Yes. In desperate circumstances you can get a medicine cat from an ally clan if there is more than one, and you must protect your OWN clanmates over others.
A mouse goes over a border as you are chasing it. Two of your legs are in your side and two are out of it. The mouse is dead even. What happens then?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 19, 2021 15:37:31 GMT -5
I would personally say "who the **** cares", but it's not my call, it's the code's. And the code says "it belongs to the clan whose territory it was caught in". Code's broken, chief. Hand over the mouse.
A clan leader has declared that from now on, any breaking of the warrior code - from as significant as treachery to as minor as accidentally crossing the border in pursuit of prey - will be immediately punished with exile. What's the code to say on this?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 19, 2021 15:47:41 GMT -5
Totally fine with the Code. They're not ordering you to break any existing codes, and their word is law.
A ShadowClan warrior sees a ThunderClan kit fall into the river. The warrior goes to help the kit, but ends up being separated and both are in danger of drowning when another ShadowClan warrior happens on the scene. This warrior chooses to save his Clanmate first, and as a result the kit is lost for good. Has the second ShadowClan warrior broken the Code? Was there even a way to not break the code in this situation?
Keep both the loyalty code and the kit code in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 16:07:06 GMT -5
I think it is breaking the code, it states that kits come first, regardless of clan, which I think would override the loyalty code.
While the medicine cat is out, a cat comes in wailing about a terrible stomachache, the not fully trained medicine cat apprentice gives them what they mistakenly believe to be juniper berries, but they're actually deathberries. The cat ends up dying. Did the medicine cat apprentice break the code?
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Post by Matfish on Jul 19, 2021 16:16:36 GMT -5
No, because nowhere in the medicine cat code.does it state that a full medicine cat must be present when an apprentice is treating a cat. But they would still be punished.
There are two starving clans. The leader of one of the clans believes that the sitiuation is worse in the other clan, and decides to help by giving prey and territory away. Is this breaking the rule that the clan must come first.
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Post by Rainsplash on Jul 19, 2021 23:52:23 GMT -5
I believe it is, since the warrior code states the Clan must come first.
Were the Dark Forest trainees breaking the code when they trained in the Dark Forest with evil cats?
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