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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 14, 2021 22:25:05 GMT -5
how many pairings in this series promote bad relationships through drama when the individual situations (the context) shows they'd be better apart...?
squirrelflight and brambleclaw is the big inspiration and reason why im making this thread. their story clearly shows they should stay broken up and repair their relationship by being platonic and rebuilding trust. moving on would have shown such a mature and healthy message. most people agree now a days that they should never have gotten back together anyways.
dovewing with both tigerheart and bumblestripe. yeah, i feel bad for bumblestripe, but that doesnt mean i support him with dovewing anymore like i used to a while back. dovewing and tigerheart are another pairing (in my opinion at least) that should have stayed broken up. dovewing moving on from both toms and finding happiness ON HER OWN and IN HER OWN CLAN would have been such a stronger and more healthy message than ruining everything, hurting her clan and family, and endangering unborn kits by running away. tigerheart finally making up his mind that the state of his clan means more to him than his own wants would have been great for him too. both of them just got away scott free because of plot reasons, and they never get truly punished for any of this. they literally got to have their cake and eat it too, which is massively annoying.
and the only other one i can think of is the bias toward crowfeather x feathertail in CT. i prefer and defend leaf x crow so much because im a bigger fan of people moving on from their old first loves and finding new love somewhere else. for what it's worth, crowfeather did love leafpool enough to run away and finally be happy for himself. the narrative in CT that he was still stuck on his first love annoys me. this series has a massive problem with "first loves" thanks to one of the erins (i forgot again which erin favors first love over moving on, but its kinda her fault tbh). this also applies to graystripe and silverstream. the scene in the last hope where graystripe reverts to his first arc self and longs for silverstream once she shows up is gross...im just glad that in GV, graystripe is clearly shown to love and value millie and their long lives together...
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 14, 2021 23:43:33 GMT -5
Vicky was under the impression that toxic relationships created more conflict than healthy ones, so they must be better for storylines. (Because story requires conflict)
But she's been off the team for about 8 years now, so I don't know why the new writers aren't taking more liberty with her vision. Some of them must agree with her, I guess.
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Post by cygna on Jul 14, 2021 23:59:21 GMT -5
Long answer:
The more toxic relationships the more drama
the more drama the longer the plot drags along
the longer it drags along the more pages filled
the more pages filled the more books
the more books the more money.
Short answer:
Money.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 15, 2021 0:26:45 GMT -5
Long answer:The more toxic relationships the more drama the more drama the longer the plot drags along the longer it drags along the more pages filled the more pages filled the more books the more books the more money. Short answer: Money. sad but true...idk why they think healthy growth would be boring to read or something...like yeah the drama would be shorter if we had realistic solutions and healthy communication and growth, but im saying they're missing out on teaching their younger readers how to handle relationships...it just sucks overall. sad truth.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 15, 2021 0:28:41 GMT -5
Vicky was under the impression that toxic relationships created more conflict than healthy ones, so they must be better for storylines. (Because story requires conflict) But she's been off the team for about 8 years now, so I don't know why the new writers aren't taking more liberty with her vision. Some of them must agree with her, I guess. i feel like it was either kate or cherith who was on the "first love wins" train? or was that really vicky? they could create conflict by having one person move on and become healthy, while the other doesnt (sort of happened with ashfur, but squirrelflight didn't go on to have a healthy relationship with bramble anyways so it doesnt count lol. and bumblestripe was angsty for a while but he's fine now ,but he doesnt get focus anymore bc he's not a protag or related to one, so he also doesnt count. same with finleap, he's not focus anymore so we dont see how he and twig resolvd things since im assuming they're a good couple now in TBC).
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Post by Rainsplash on Jul 15, 2021 0:36:15 GMT -5
I think it was Kate but I think Cherith wrote CT? Ugh I don't care They refuse to let go of SquirrelBramble and constantly make them the center which is getting boring and irritating.
Ughhh what is up with TigerDove?? I would've much, much preferred it if Dovewing's Tigerheart and Bumblestripe ended with OotS and she became mates with Foxleap or something.
Crowfeather x Feathertail was really pushed in CT. Ashfoot's all like 'Feathertail was the only one who could calm you down' and how why what why? Crowfeather should be over Feathertail by now, the most he remembers of Feathertail is probably a more romanticized version of her, and I agree about your point of Crowfeather loving Leafpool enough and try to make a new life for themselves.
Why did GraySilver return with FireSpotted in TLH? I always close the book and think: What have I done to deserve this cringy moment? I hate Spottedleaf and Silverstream both saying something lovey in front of their love's mate.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 15, 2021 2:31:34 GMT -5
Thank god they at least moved on from pairings like YellowRagged, RainShell, LeafCrow, and LionHeather. The series can move on from terrible relationships, even have healthy closure, it's just that the editors don't seem to want that lmfao. The only good thing that has come out of it are confirmed/implied poly-healthy relationships such as TurtleGrayWSlate and SilverGrayMillie, etc.
Also personally I think the fandom has more issues with accepting that more screen time =/= a more loved relationship sometimes. Second Love doesn't always mean better love, just like how first love doesn't always mean only love. It's quite a strange cycle and just shows how complicated the heart can be.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 15, 2021 2:33:43 GMT -5
Vicky was under the impression that toxic relationships created more conflict than healthy ones, so they must be better for storylines. (Because story requires conflict) But she's been off the team for about 8 years now, so I don't know why the new writers aren't taking more liberty with her vision. Some of them must agree with her, I guess. i feel like it was either kate or cherith who was on the "first love wins" train? or was that really vicky? they could create conflict by having one person move on and become healthy, while the other doesnt (sort of happened with ashfur, but squirrelflight didn't go on to have a healthy relationship with bramble anyways so it doesnt count lol. and bumblestripe was angsty for a while but he's fine now ,but he doesnt get focus anymore bc he's not a protag or related to one, so he also doesnt count. same with finleap, he's not focus anymore so we dont see how he and twig resolvd things since im assuming they're a good couple now in TBC). I've never heard of any of the authors saying "first love is best", so I don't know about that. I just know Vicky's said multiple times that bad relationships are more "interesting" than healthy ones, going so far as to joke about punishing Sorreltail for her happiness. (I think it was Sorreltail? Might have been someone else). They could also create conflict through so many other ways that aren't relationship-related. Or hell, have external factors throw a wrench into the relationship instead of the relationship itself being a source of conflict. There's so many other ways to handle it.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 15, 2021 5:14:47 GMT -5
i feel like it was either kate or cherith who was on the "first love wins" train? or was that really vicky? they could create conflict by having one person move on and become healthy, while the other doesnt (sort of happened with ashfur, but squirrelflight didn't go on to have a healthy relationship with bramble anyways so it doesnt count lol. and bumblestripe was angsty for a while but he's fine now ,but he doesnt get focus anymore bc he's not a protag or related to one, so he also doesnt count. same with finleap, he's not focus anymore so we dont see how he and twig resolvd things since im assuming they're a good couple now in TBC). I've never heard of any of the authors saying "first love is best", so I don't know about that. It was Kate that said something akin to First love being best or something of it, granted it was in the context of FeatherCrow vs. LeafCrow and it is I think her oldest comment regarding that argument between the pairs and I've seen her opinion on that change (She doesn't think Crow will get with anyone in Starclan nor those he got with vice versa) Either way, the Wikia like all things will keep those old ass comments as trivia and never bother to edit/change them to be more recent so the fandom sticks to those old quotes and reiterates them constantly as if they are fact even though they're years old and irrelevant. (Looking at you, quote about Spottedleaf's death that still gets thrown up as fact when it wasn't even the true reason to begin with since Vicky is the one killing cats and not Kate who just writes what she is given from Vicky =.=' I'm so tired of it man...) Also to add, yes, she killed Sorreltail and with it SorrelBracken PURELY because it was a normal, happy healthy relationship with no stupid drama forced into it, actually yawned about how boring that was to her, and LAUGHED about the idea of destroying that happiness immensely which still makes me wanna rage and never will not.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jul 15, 2021 5:34:02 GMT -5
It's all for one word. Drama.
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Post by sparkleeze on Jul 15, 2021 8:21:25 GMT -5
Drama, entertainment, and conflicts to fill the void. It is a fantasy book series after all though, what do you expect? It's best not to take it too seriously.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jul 15, 2021 8:28:32 GMT -5
Two reasons. The first is money, but it has little to nothing to do with capitalism. The second and primary reason is a fundamental part of the human brain. Some of us crave drama, but all of us are at least in some way interested in it. If you've ever read a book without conflict, well, you wouldn't have read it at all. You would have put it down long ago and never returned to it. Regarding healthy relationships in Warriors, we all want to see it happen, but to the majority of us reading, there is little more that could be less interesting. Two or more characters have a lovey dovey peachy relationship. Cool, but what else? Where is the drama, the conflict? Oh, but this relationship over here has all of that? Maybe one of the characters is abusive, for instance? That draws you in, you want to read more, you discuss it with others, like we are doing here. On a side note, a thread discussing a toxic relationship will always get more people talking than a thread discussing a normal healthy relationship before the former is extreme and the latter is more ordinary. At the end of the day, conflict sells. Drama sells. The longer the Erins and the editing team behind them can drag out a dramatic pairing, the more pages they can fill, the more books they can sell, and the longer they can keep the reader hooked, therefore they make more money. I suppose most to all of us are hypocrites at the end of the day. As people have pointed out though, this is just a fantasy series that has its primary demographic aimed at older children and younger teenagers. As such, things are going to feel a little "distorted".
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 15, 2021 8:37:49 GMT -5
The sad thing is, you can have dramatic moments in very healthy relationships. It’s not hard to write both. Arguments can happen in even the healthiest relationship, but why is it so hard for them to write drama followed then by genuine communication and understanding? Also, couples can break up and still respect eachother. Why do they want to turn it toxic when they can still keep things healthy while also having that drama?
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jul 15, 2021 8:40:27 GMT -5
The sad thing is, you can have dramatic moments in very healthy relationships. It’s not hard to write both. Arguments can happen in even the healthiest relationship, but why is it so hard for them to write drama followed then by genuine communication and understanding? Also, couples can break up and still respect eachother. Why do they want to turn it toxic when they can still keep things healthy while also having that drama? My only educated guess is... the more drama, the better? There's been reports of some members of the Erin Hunter team finding "normal, healthy relationships" in Warriors being nauseatingly boring. Edit: Besides, you can drag on a dramatic relationship from "warriorship" until death, whenever that might arrive, and in the in-between periods you have have a break-up or something. You can't exactly do that if you have a regular relationship with occasional drama, or at least it would be less controversial, meaning less books sold.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 15, 2021 17:16:16 GMT -5
Drama and money. Which is very unfortunate. Healthy relationships should usually be given more focus than unhealthy ones, in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 17:21:25 GMT -5
For reasons everyone else has already stated, but for the Bramble x Squirrel thing, because those are the characters they focus on the most, especially Squirrelflight, so of course them and their stupid relationship is going to get wayy more focus and attention.
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Post by turquoiselynx on Jul 17, 2021 2:35:44 GMT -5
Because unhealthy b-rate drama sells more than sending healthy messages in the kids series
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