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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jul 18, 2021 11:51:11 GMT -5
@juniperclaw Skypaw13 nowarriornameshere In DW, Mothwing directly stated that Ashfur was grooming Shadowsight, and how it's possible he could've been the entire time. She is right about this.Aqua (And Mothwing) obviously meant the word in its standard manipulative definition, as Ashfur technically DID reduce Shadowsight's inhibitions' and used Shadowsight's naiveness against him to get him to trust him and used that trust to get him to do what he wanted under the guise of being a trustworthy Starclan cat. And Ashfur is an adult cat manipulating a young adult one to trust him and do his bidding by using that trust. Yes, that is grooming, the word is used in the sexual definition but it doesn't HAVE to be sexual which is a fact of the word that is unfortunately forgotten about. And regardless of how it's done it can affect the person who was manipulated greatly, which we DO see with Shadowsight in DW during his scenes with Ashfur in the book as well. I disagree with Shadowsight being a child during when it happened though, as his littermates were promoted to Warriors rather soon in his chapters. He was practically an adult age despite his apprentice status (Reiterating that status =///= age again), but adults can have their inhibitions lowered by anyone, even younger folks, they can be manipulated, and yes, that means they can be groomed. I'm hoping explaining this doesn't get me in trouble or something, I just feel like it needed to be explained since others were asking plz don't mods. ._.''''Oh. Uh... I mean, yes, the term "groomer" can be used in a non-sexual context, but there's a reason it often isn't. I see where you're coming from, and you are technically correct, but surely you at least see where most people's confusion came from?
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Post by Hollyfall on Jul 18, 2021 13:13:04 GMT -5
@juniperclaw Skypaw13 nowarriornameshere In DW, Mothwing directly stated that Ashfur was grooming Shadowsight, and how it's possible he could've been the entire time. She is right about this.Aqua (And Mothwing) obviously meant the word in its standard manipulative definition, as Ashfur technically DID reduce Shadowsight's inhibitions' and used Shadowsight's naiveness against him to get him to trust him and used that trust to get him to do what he wanted under the guise of being a trustworthy Starclan cat. And Ashfur is an adult cat manipulating a young adult one to trust him and do his bidding by using that trust. Yes, that is grooming, the word is used in the sexual definition but it doesn't HAVE to be sexual which is a fact of the word that is unfortunately forgotten about. And regardless of how it's done it can affect the person who was manipulated greatly, which we DO see with Shadowsight in DW during his scenes with Ashfur in the book as well. I disagree with Shadowsight being a child during when it happened though, as his littermates were promoted to Warriors rather soon in his chapters. He was practically an adult age despite his apprentice status (Reiterating that status =///= age again), but adults can have their inhibitions lowered by anyone, even younger folks, they can be manipulated, and yes, that means they can be groomed. I'm hoping explaining this doesn't get me in trouble or something, I just feel like it needed to be explained since others were asking plz don't mods. ._.''''I think you could even apply this to Bristlefrost as well. Ashfur recognized Bristlefrost's eagerness and loyalty to ThunderClan as well as her young age, and took advantage of it by making her his eyes and ears in the Clan and manipulating her into doing what he wanted. Ashfur is an adult cat who uses the guise of being Bramblestar, who is the Clan leader, in order to take advantage of Bristlefrost's naivety, ending up making her spy on her own Clanmates and reporting on them to him, which ostracizes her from them and damages Bristlefrost's own reputation within the Clan. Which, is pretty similar to what happened with Shadowsight. I do feel it's worth pointing out that both Shadowsight and Bristlefrost actually got promoted to their ranks a bit earlier than most. At best they could still be considered teenagers (or the cat equivalent of that) despite being a full fledged medicine cat and warrior when Ashfur came into the picture. Heck, one of Mothwing's criticisms was that Shadowsight only got his rank early because he was unintentionally manipulated by Ashfur. You are absolutely right in that status =/= age, and that these two were manipulated and groomed by Ashfur, but I think it's worth mentioning that both of them were younger than the average medicine cat/warrior when it happened, though not quite adult age yet as far as I can recollect. Not that it changes what happened, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 13:21:29 GMT -5
I dislike how OP Ashfur is. One cat is more powerful than StarClan and the Dark Forest. Agreed! And he doesn't even make sense as the villain, I think he should have been a henchman to be thrown into the dark forest, because I can think of 50 other cats who would be better suited for going after code breakers. I can't believe this is all because some she-cat rejected him, the clans are getting destroyed because of that. This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. I know it happens in real life, but isn't Warriors technically supposed to be for children-teens or whatever? Why are they turning it into a ding dang soap opera? If I wanted a soap opera, I would have watched Days of Our Lives or something. Heck, now that I think of it, this series has been a soap opera for awhile now, always focusing on the lovee plot first and foremost. Blegh. Sorry for going off on a bit of a rant there. Also, I KNOW what Ashfur feels isn't love.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Jul 18, 2021 16:31:56 GMT -5
I dislike the way magic is used. Warriors has always had some magic (leader ceremonies and visions) but it was never in the series’ face. I still tolerated when powers were introduced, but it just felt unnatural. And now magic is a huge part of this arc with a lot of it receiving next to no explanation. It just doesn’t feel like the series like I grew up with, even if the plotline still interests me. It’s the same thing with darkness and drama. Warriors has always had some of those elements, but now it’s just something that seems to keep going without stopping. I keep rooting for someone to have something good happen to them, but it never happens. It’s just getting tough to read. I’m also annoyed with the identity of the imposter, just because even though it’s nice to see his story wrapped up finally, it also doesn’t feel right that he’s the one with that much power and hate toward the Clans when he’s never displayed having either prior to this. Unless there is something like another manipulator in the background, I will always think Sol and Darktail would’ve been better options. They had a lot of hatred for the Clans and I’ve seen having a lot of power previously, so it would make sense to see them rather than who the imposter turned out to be. Sol would be especially chilling, considering his skill at manipulating others, The power he was able to attain, and the fact that Leafstar inadvertently made him do more damage by sending him in the direction of the other Clans... I also don’t like the focus on romance that this and more recent books have been doing. I can read about romance and relationships in just about every other series, but I got into the series because cats were having adventures. i’d love for the series to focus on that instead, instead of human like cats having romantic relationships, even though some romance isn’t bad. Don’t get me wrong, I still like a lot of parts of this arc, but I tend to think of it as a story based off of warriors than a main arc of Warriors...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 16:42:14 GMT -5
wheeledwarriorI could not agree more with pretty much everything in your post, I feel the same exact way about most of the things you mentioned.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on Jul 19, 2021 1:02:36 GMT -5
@juniperclaw Skypaw13 nowarriornameshere In DW, Mothwing directly stated that Ashfur was grooming Shadowsight, and how it's possible he could've been the entire time. She is right about this.Aqua (And Mothwing) obviously meant the word in its standard manipulative definition, as Ashfur technically DID reduce Shadowsight's inhibitions' and used Shadowsight's naiveness against him to get him to trust him and used that trust to get him to do what he wanted under the guise of being a trustworthy Starclan cat. And Ashfur is an adult cat manipulating a young adult one to trust him and do his bidding by using that trust. Yes, that is grooming, the word is used in the sexual definition but it doesn't HAVE to be sexual which is a fact of the word that is unfortunately forgotten about. And regardless of how it's done it can affect the person who was manipulated greatly, which we DO see with Shadowsight in DW during his scenes with Ashfur in the book as well. I disagree with Shadowsight being a child during when it happened though, as his littermates were promoted to Warriors rather soon in his chapters. He was practically an adult age despite his apprentice status (Reiterating that status =///= age again), but adults can have their inhibitions lowered by anyone, even younger folks, they can be manipulated, and yes, that means they can be groomed. I'm hoping explaining this doesn't get me in trouble or something, I just feel like it needed to be explained since others were asking plz don't mods. ._.''''(cut out to save space) I do feel it's worth pointing out that both Shadowsight and Bristlefrost actually got promoted to their ranks a bit earlier than most. At best they could still be considered teenagers (or the cat equivalent of that) despite being a full fledged medicine cat and warrior when Ashfur came into the picture. Heck, one of Mothwing's criticisms was that Shadowsight only got his rank early because he was unintentionally manipulated by Ashfur. You are absolutely right in that status =/= age, and that these two were manipulated and groomed by Ashfur, but I think it's worth mentioning that both of them were younger than the average medicine cat/warrior when it happened, though not quite adult age yet as far as I can recollect. Not that it changes what happened, of course. Bristlefrost was younger than the average warrior age, but not Shadowsight as his littermates were warriors in LS already, before Bristlefrost, but Shadowsight was still an apprentice because a medicine cat's training usually lasts longer than a warrior's. So Shadowsight I think was definitely an adult, albeit a young one.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jul 19, 2021 11:47:49 GMT -5
I liked the broken code, but even I know there are some major problems.
1. Bristelfrost. I love her, she had such a nice setup but she never really develops or does anything after the 3rd book. I wonder why they even keep her as a POV. She was a character I grew to love, which is why i'm so frustrated at how little she is given to do.
2. Pacing. At times the book can seem incredibly slow because no one listens to each other. It can get annoying, and it is most noticeable in a veil of shadows. Most of books 2-3 is just rootpaw trying to convince the leaders to listen to him.
3. Ashfur. I like his villain arc, but why ashfur? I wish they would just make another villain instead of using him. The concept is so intimidating and cool but ashfur just isn't the cat who should be in this role. His goals are also just boring, he does all of this just so he can ask squirrelflight to become his mate. And after she rejects him he is just sad and ask her again. Like why did he do all of this??? What do codebreakers have to do with this? His motives make no sense.
4. Background characters. There is some nice characterization in this arc, examples being flipclaw, snowtuft, or lightleap. yet there is also a lot of background characters that just become mean for no reason. Examples being thriftear, plumnose, mothwing, lionblaze, thornclaw. I can list more.
5. Bramblestar staying alive. This is just a personal opinion, but I wish he would have died. And also more characters should have died in this arc. My list on a few cats who should have died: Graystripe, Mistystar, Tawnypelt, Bramblestar, Cloudtail, Brightheart, Thornclaw, Lionblaze, and literately any of the named codebreakers. The broken code was a great arc to also look into the code and its flaws, yet it's almost never touched upon.
Those were just some problems I had, it may be different for other people. I really have enjoyed reading this arc, yet I don't ever see myself ever re-reading it. It had so much potential, and it's sad just how mediocre it turned out. I wouldn't say its terrible, it does have its good moments, but it still is heavily flawed. There is one more book to still be released, but It'll take a lot to fix this arc!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 13:07:22 GMT -5
Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam Omg yes the pacing! Like, what is time in this arc too? Like book 2 pretty much picked up where book 1 left off, and cats are already warriors? Even ones that are only a moon older than Root, which at the time would make them like 8 moon old warriors? Then in Darkness Within, I think it mentions like a moon passed since the battle, and they're JUST now holding a vigil? Were the deceased just chilling out there for a moon or something? It just seems like some cats are leveling up too fast, and others not fast enough, which the second makes sense, since all of what is going on, but it hasn't been stated in the books, so it doesn't count.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jul 19, 2021 14:03:17 GMT -5
Yess! All the unimportant characters like flamepaw or finchpaw just don't age at all, time is so weird in this arc.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 19, 2021 14:05:00 GMT -5
Yess! All the unimportant characters like flamepaw or finchpaw just don't age at all, time is so weird in this arc. my personal favorite is curlfeather's kits being kits all arc lmao
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jul 19, 2021 14:09:53 GMT -5
Yess! All the unimportant characters like flamepaw or finchpaw just don't age at all, time is so weird in this arc. my personal favorite is curlfeather's kits being kits all arc lmao Agreed, all of the apprentices and kits suffered this arc
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 19, 2021 14:21:11 GMT -5
my personal favorite is curlfeather's kits being kits all arc lmao Agreed, all of the apprentices and kits suffered this arc compared to previous arcs: ferncloud and ashfur were born in the beginning of into the wild and were apprenticed by rising storm. foxleap and icecloud were born near the sight, and were apprenticed by outcast (i think its because they're not far apart in age from jay, holly, and lion?) cherryfall and molewhisker were born near the beginning of OotS and were apprenticed by the forgotten warrior (one book away from the ending. if curlfeathers kits followed this timeline instead of the other examples, they'd be apprentices by now in TBC).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 14:45:54 GMT -5
I just had a thought regarding the Curlfeather's kits not leveling up. What if they did this on purpose? Since Frostpaw is going to be the next protagonist, and they didn't want to reveal her description? Plus, her being the new RC med-cat it makes sense I guess? Maybe they didn't want yet ANOTHER warrior turned medicine cat, and I like that fact, if that's the case.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 19, 2021 14:47:53 GMT -5
I just had a thought regarding the Curlfeather's kits not leveling up. What if they did this on purpose? Since Frostpaw is going to be the next protagonist, and they didn't want to reveal her description? Plus, her being the new RC med-cat it makes sense I guess? Maybe they didn't want yet ANOTHER warrior turned medicine cat, and I like that fact, if that's the case. if it was truly preplanned from the beginning of TBC, then they wouldnt have included curlfeather's kits until later in the arc, so them being apprenticed at the beginning of the next arc would make sense....thats just what i think anyways. i feel like nothing is truly planned ahead because of little stuff like this lmao
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 14:49:29 GMT -5
I just had a thought regarding the Curlfeather's kits not leveling up. What if they did this on purpose? Since Frostpaw is going to be the next protagonist, and they didn't want to reveal her description? Plus, her being the new RC med-cat it makes sense I guess? Maybe they didn't want yet ANOTHER warrior turned medicine cat, and I like that fact, if that's the case. if it was truly preplanned from the beginning of TBC, then they wouldnt have included curlfeather's kits until later in the arc, so them being apprenticed at the beginning of the next arc would make sense....thats just what i think anyways. i feel like nothing is truly planned ahead because of little stuff like this lmao Oh wait, that's true XD Whatever happens, I just hope Frostpaw isn't a generic basic solid grey cat with blue/green eyes.
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Post by Lionstrike on Jul 19, 2021 15:37:34 GMT -5
I dislike how OP Ashfur is. One cat is more powerful than StarClan and the Dark Forest. Agreed. Also he just needs to MOVE ON. Not every cat in the world wants such vengeance. Crowfeather lost two of his loves but did he wipe out the Dark Forest and Starclan and repossess the body of the cat who stole Squirrelflight from him? SQUIRRELFLIGHT MADE HER CHOICE. IT IS PAINFUL, BUT LIVE WITH IT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 15:39:53 GMT -5
I dislike how OP Ashfur is. One cat is more powerful than StarClan and the Dark Forest. Agreed. Also he just needs to MOVE ON. Not every cat in the world wants such vengeance. Crowfeather lost two of his loves but did he wipe out the Dark Forest and Starclan and repossess the body of the cat who stole Squirrelflight from him? SQUIRRELFLIGHT MADE HER CHOICE. IT IS PAINFUL, BUT LIVE WITH IT.I hate Ashfur being the main big bad just as much as the next guy, but everyone processes their emotions in different ways. Some people scream, some people kick things, some people go for a job, some people do whatever they can to distract themselves. Not everyone is going to react the same way to what sparks their darkest emotions. This ISN'T an Ashfur defense post not at all, I'm just trying to say that not everyone responds the same, so not everyone can just live with it, and it's not very factual to compare two different, in this case, cats, because it's not black and white.
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Post by Numquam on Jul 19, 2021 16:33:31 GMT -5
As much as I find Ashfur an interesting character, I feel like it would've been a lot better if the imposter was a different cat. I would've preferred to see a cat who did worse when they were alive and who truly had a "reason" to feel the need to wreck havoc onto all of the clans, like having truly felt wronged by them. I know irl you do see cases of incels taking things way too far and harmful, but I feel like having a villain with a more "legitimate" reason to hate the clans would've made things more interesting.
Also something about the way a lot of cats are characterised I just find really annoying.
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Post by Rainsplash on Jul 20, 2021 6:34:55 GMT -5
I actually dislike TBC because the deaths aren't emotional. Stemleaf? Meh. Rosepetal and Berrynose? Oh!! They're dead!! Ah. Sorrow. Well, anyway. I can't believe how Bristlefrost reacted to those deaths. It felt so... unreal. Like I'm grieving more than those actual characters.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Jul 20, 2021 10:58:04 GMT -5
I actually dislike TBC because the deaths aren't emotional. Stemleaf? Meh. Rosepetal and Berrynose? Oh!! They're dead!! Ah. Sorrow. Well, anyway. I can't believe how Bristlefrost reacted to those deaths. It felt so... unreal. Like I'm grieving more than those actual characters. I think the main problem with that is there’s just so many characters to keep track of and it’s just becoming a major issue. I feel like that’s what I’ve had more impact if there were less characters so we could get attached to the ones that were there. But there’s just way too many characters to be shoved into one series (not arc) and the plot is suffering for it. It’s been around since the beginning, but we’re only really seeing it as an issue now. That’s why I feel like all of the clans, not just TC, need to have the characters killed off until there’s about 20 to 30 total (not including anyone else they meet on their journeys, and even 20 to 30 might be too much). It would be sad, especially for those that loved having that many characters, but for the rest of us, it’s just getting impossible to follow, and certain events don’t have any weight because of it. Something else I don’t like too much about this arc Is that while it does a good job of wrapping up some peoples stories, it is not for others. Some of this goes into the previous arc, but I feel like mentioning it anyway. Needletail is a great example. I feel kind of cheated that someone set up to be an important character that wasn’t from the main clan gets killed off halfway and does a cliché redemption and realization that the warrior code is not all that bad and they were wrong not to follow it. I would’ve preferred the character being alive, able to escape from the rouges, but at the same time realizing that The issue was not from being alone, but with Darktail. And as her backstory shows, Needletail had some pretty good reasons to be distrustful of the Clans, and she’s not wrong when she points out do you think their way of life is better than everyone else when that’s not really the case and that’s one of the flaws the Clans themselves have (obviously, not every character things like that, but a fair amount of them do). She went around voicing her concerns in the wrong way, and did things for selfish reasons, but the backbone of her character and original motivations were not. So, I would’ve love to see that character survive and become a friendly rogue (or as friendly as she could be) and make a return in this arc. Just to show that life without the code and the client is not as bad as everyone thinks, and helps the others to really question the life that they’ve been taught to lead. But she doesn’t, and it’s just wasted potential, not to mention I feel like we haven’t had a friendly outsider that makes reoccurring appearances since Barley from the first arc (not counting the tribe, WarriorClan, The sisters, or the guardian cats because they’re all similar to the clans in some way). With the themes this arc is going for, having one could really shake things up, but sadly that hasn’t happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 11:17:59 GMT -5
wheeledwarriorI personally don't think the amount of characters is really the problem, but who they choose to focus on. Like in AVOS, they could have EASILY kept Molewhisker as Alderheart's apprentice, Twigbranch could have come into ThunderClan and became a medicine cat or something, and it's not like ThunderClan really needed another medicine cat at the time. Yet, they made Alderheart an apprentice, thus taking focus that could have been on Molewhisker, and giving it to Jayfeather, a cat who was a POV character for 12 books. Now, in POT part 3, they're once again focusing on the characters who have been around since forever. I know that Shadow, Bristle, and Root are new characters, but honestly it feels like they have to split up their page time between Squirrelflight, and a lot of their thoughts are about her. Another thing about TBC, is that Mothwing just had to go to ShadowClan taking focus from Puddleshine, when she's been like the most important character of RiverClan ever since her appearance, she even pretty much took over Mistystar's Omen, so it's basically like she got two novellas instead of one. Their attachment to the same characters is messing up the timelines and perceptions too. Like, generations have passed, and I don't think they ever even written Squirrelflight being described as old. They act like Bramblestar is still young when he is 11 years old, most of the elders in the first arc who died were 7. Sorreltail was 6 when she died, and people were freaking out about her being too old to have kits, yet there's nearly 9 year old Squirrelflight in SQH fretting about kits, and no one said anything about her age? It doesn't make any sense. This series has tons of opportunities to focus on different characters, but they don't, and even if there were just five cats in the clan other than the cats they usually focus on, we probably still wouldn't see much of them. I agree, like THREE cats died for a noble cause and didn't have to face the consequences in AVOS.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Jul 20, 2021 16:21:46 GMT -5
I think at one point Squirrelflight what is described as old, which was why her kits died. Bramblestar never was, however, which is odd because he is older than her. I really wish the authors would define how older cats act versus the younger ones, though. Mistystar, Bramblestar, Tallstar, and Squirrelflight were all very old by series standards but were never seen acting old. In contrast, characters like Littlecloud, Mille, Greystripe, Bluestar, Barkface, Daisy, and Mudfur all had problems in their old age. So it’s not only a matter of the author is not remembering the characters ages, but also not defining what it means to be old (whether someone being a spring chicken and someone feeling like they need to retire early or otherwise not feeling that well is just something dependent on the character or not). It Would have been funny to see Greystripe in the elders den with all the cats he knew as apprentices, but as his super edition shows, outliving everyone just by sheer chance (in the series, even if all the favoritism is involved outside it) can be very sad and lonely. It’s like that way with real elderly people sometimes too, so I hope that he and everyone else old gets a proper sendoff so they don’t have to be without their friends and family anymore...
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