#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Jun 27, 2021 23:58:35 GMT -5
What is your opinion on Ashfur? If you can, please put spoilers for The Broken Code in spoiler boxes so people who haven't read up to this yet don't get spoiled. I like Ashfur as of The Broken Code. He is a crazy villain. And he is a StarClan cat too. I hope he gets his sendoff in A Light In The Mist. I may like him but he needs to die.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 28, 2021 0:04:50 GMT -5
i hate him. nothing about him is interesting to me. rant: i refuse to believe that he is some mastermind genius who was able to figure out how to do the crap he's done in TBC on his own. there's no way ashfur, the guy who takes advantage of others plans and takes advantage of situations as they happen, is this master who preplanned all this TBC stuff. there's no way.
i hate how people r now saying "wow ashfur is the most terrifying and powerful villain!" when he isnt and he shouldnt be. he should have been left to the dust to be forgotten about since his story ended YEARS ago. him bring brought back is the worst thing to happen in this series so far imo.
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Post by kells on Jun 28, 2021 4:06:41 GMT -5
i hate him. nothing about him is interesting to me. rant: i refuse to believe that he is some mastermind genius who was able to figure out how to do the crap he's done in TBC on his own. there's no way ashfur, the guy who takes advantage of others plans and takes advantage of situations as they happen, is this master who preplanned all this TBC stuff. there's no way.
i hate how people r now saying "wow ashfur is the most terrifying and powerful villain!" when he isnt and he shouldnt be. he should have been left to the dust to be forgotten about since his story ended YEARS ago. him bring brought back is the worst thing to happen in this series so far imo. to add on to this, I feel like the Erins seriously copped out with the plot. Everything is so forcibly crushed for drama nothing feels genuine. Shadowsight "died" like nine times, Ashfur's personality is just nuked to smithereens bc "drama lol". Past characters like Squirrelflight and Tigerstar get more development while characters like Honeyfur and Leafshade exist as stationary border patrol NPCs.
Ashfur has just ascended to lvl.99 incel and, as a dead cat, somehow controls different realms and spirits in a snap of a finger??? Sorry mapleshade, I know you were persistent to get back at the Clans with what you did to crookedpaw and all over the course of like five generations but Lord Creeptinator's obsession here is apparently stronger than your hatred.
I thought the random ass-pull of Darktail being Onestar's long lost son was bad, but TBC, to me, is just further proof that the Erins are running out of ideas.
By the end of this arc, we will likely get a bang identical to OotS, with all the Clans putting aside their unnecessary rivalry uniting against Ashfur bc papa starclan would've wanted them to, and overcome ashfur with squirrelflight and bramblestar making a super dramatic stand off/fight/whatever and saving the day.
A total of one fossil will die and 5 hollow husks. Hopefully Tigerstar's Good Son™️ will die, but thats unlikely since he's Tigerstar's son and his relationship with Firestar's Daughter™️ may not be milked enough yet. Also the erins like him
The day will be saved and everyone's hunkydory for 2 minutes before going for each other's throat again. Cue ASC.
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Post by cygna on Jun 28, 2021 5:30:33 GMT -5
I hate that their making Ashfur a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. We never see Ashfur as a mean guy before the ending of TNP, now it's revealed in GV he was always awful. I hate the idea of his character to begin with. It's lazy. The fact that Erins felt like they had to ruin a cat just to make BrambleSquirrel look good?!?! Its's infuriating. It clearly proves their perfect ship was doomed since the beginning. Good couple's don't need a third party to make them look good. Ashfur's only purpose was throwing a wrench in BrambleSquirrel's beautiful relationship and once he served it he should have just been left alone. BUT the Erins either aren't or don't think their smart enough to come up with an actually good plot.
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Post by silentbreeze on Jun 28, 2021 9:53:16 GMT -5
Honestly, his villain arc feels kind of in-character (long paragraph ahead). Back when he was a paw, Ashfur learned very quickly that getting revenge is the way to cope whenever he loses someone he cares about; this is seen with Brindleface and Whitestorm's deaths respectively. He's also never been this super nice cat, and has been shown to have a strong prejudice against kittypets and outsiders and openly talk about it. When he falls for Squirrelflight and she ultimately chooses Brambleclaw, a cat who also becomes deputy without an apprentice, Ashfur is clearly pissed; he already had an apprentice at the time, and felt that it was a biased choosing (even though it wasn't). He felt the need to get revenge, because he had felt like he lost someone he seemingly cared about, and Hawkfrost gave him that opportunity, though we all know how that ended. Things only got worse when Firestar gave Lionpaw, who was believed to be a SquilfBramble kit, to him to train, which probably put salt on the wound for him. We generally don't see his POV in Power of Three but he clearly becomes more and more unhinged, even going as far as to fight Lionblaze twice (even if it was supposed training, Ashfur clearly hates him)! All of this boils down to the fire scene, when he is revealed becomes a full blown obsessed cat towards Squirrelflight. When she's revealed to have broken the code, Ashfur is more than happy to expose them, but gets killed by Hollyleaf before he has the chance. Later in Omen of The Stars, when Hollyleaf is about to reveal the truth, Brambleclaw twists the narrative to make Hollyleaf the innocent party, and I'm willing to bet that Ashfur began to hate Brambleclaw at this point from StarClan, as his reputation is ruined within ThunderClan. He seems to "heal" in StarClan despite this, and when Squirrelflight comes into StarClan, it's possible he thinks that he'll get the chance to be with her, only for her to resurrect because her love for Bramblestar was so strong. This altogether probably made him relapse with his obsession, and got him out for blood; codebreakers were ultimately his downfall, so he decided to use that to enforce fear, tyranny, and chaos among the clans, all while making Bramblestar look like a monster due to his hatred for him (before he was exposed ofc). All of this proves one thing: if he feels wronged in anyway, he will do whatever it takes to rake revenge upon the cats who he felt wronged him. His villain arc makes a lot of sense to me.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 28, 2021 9:57:13 GMT -5
I’m just honestly annoyed he’s given such an overpowered ability to just control everything and everyone??? Since when??? Why are we giving the evil boss king powers to Ashfur of all villains? I’m supposed to be in awe and shock over...a cat who’s friend wouldn’t date him? Honestly it’s all such Squirrelflight angst bait and it’s so dumb at this point. Ashfur himself would be fine if he wasn’t so absurdly overpowered.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 28, 2021 14:05:43 GMT -5
I’m just honestly annoyed he’s given such an overpowered ability to just control everything and everyone??? Since when??? Why are we giving the evil boss king powers to Ashfur of all villains? I’m supposed to be in awe and shock over...a cat who’s friend wouldn’t date him? Honestly it’s all such Squirrelflight angst bait and it’s so dumb at this point. Ashfur himself would be fine if he wasn’t so absurdly overpowered. i hate when series make something up for a new arc and have to pretend "oh yeah this concept always existed in universe, but only this one special character discovered it." it makes no sense for ashfur to be the ONLY one to figure out how to do all this bullcrap. like what kells said in their reply earlier, cats like mapleshade (a great example since she's the one who originally tried using her dark forest connection to affect the clans) should have figured out how to do what ashfur "figured out" how to do ages ago since she's been dead way longer. but nope, only ashfur is special apparently. and i refuse to believe it. ashfur was NEVER a mastermind. period. he was a weasel who took advantage of others plans, like hawkfrosts.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 28, 2021 14:06:30 GMT -5
I really don't understand what's with people diminishing Ashfur's background. Would people have preferred it if he simply sprung out of the womb with plans to rule the world like Brokenstar, a notoriously lame villain? Yes, Ashfur has an ordinary background, but every villain does. You can reduce literally every villain in the series like this, saying Scourge is just a poser kittypet, Mapleshade is just a fool in love, Tigerstar is just a disgruntled subordinate, Darktail just has daddy issues, and so on and so forth. At that rate, what is the standard of a good villain then? It's utterly absurd.
Yes, his motivation is being an incel. So? That's pretty terrifying to me, someone who is so obsessed with this idea of loving someone that they'll hurt anyone to try to obtain it. He's also actually a good manipulator, with the way he tries to get Shadowsight to empathize with him, something no other villain has ever really pulled off very well. Again, this is very true to his motives and character and makes him a lot creepier, that he's much closer to the other characters yet still off.
His powers are also neat and make sense, given he is a Starclan cat technically, and they have always had such abilities. Remember Cinderpelt possessing Cinderheart? Ashfur seems to just be doing the same thing really. He is a fallen angel and of course he'd be far more powerful than Dark Forest cats, who are literally rotting away inside of a festering wound of a realm.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 28, 2021 14:23:00 GMT -5
I really hate him as a character/incel but can very much appreciate that he and his actions are no longer excused by someone who was kind of in charge for a while on the Erin Hunter writing/editing team (bye Vicky Holmes). He who "loved too much" is finally not a minor antagonist anymore who just got into StarClan because of author bias but instead now a major villain who will get what he deserves. Ashfur is going down. Way down. And I'm so here for it.
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Post by downfalls on Jun 28, 2021 15:11:03 GMT -5
I hate him so much. He's a literal manchild. He got mad because Squirrelflight rejected him and tried to kill 3 CHILDREN.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 28, 2021 15:25:18 GMT -5
Yes, his motivation is being an incel. So? That's pretty terrifying to me, someone who is so obsessed with this idea of loving someone that they'll hurt anyone to try to obtain it. He's also actually a good manipulator, with the way he tries to get Shadowsight to empathize with him, something no other villain has ever really pulled off very well. Again, this is very true to his motives and character and makes him a lot creepier, that he's much closer to the other characters yet still off. All of this, but I agree with this part especially! Obviously people are still allowed to hate Ashfur since, let's be honest, the Yandere trope is a bit overused these days (nothing inherently wrong with that, of course). The problem, at least for me, is when people specifically call it unrealistic. As history would tell us, this couldn't be farther from the truth. So much so that meeting someone like Ashfur is basically my worst nightmare. Seriously, listen to any true crime podcast, and chances are, more than a handful of them are going to be about someone killing someone else after being rejected. And even if you take out the whole romantic obsession of it all, again, people using others to get back at someone else for absolutely any reason at all isn't exactly unique to this series, either. Because let's face it, people are petty. Point is, Ashfur is probably the most realistic villain in the entire series, and to see him finally be treated like a villain is forking cathartic! No, children aren't stupid, but let's not delude ourselves by thinking they're smart enough to develop critical thinking skills, especially at the age these books are directed at. We've all been kids before, books are powerful, and the Ashfur Wars themselves should be a great example of this sort of thing.
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Post by cygna on Jun 28, 2021 16:14:55 GMT -5
I really don't understand what's with people diminishing Ashfur's background. Would people have preferred it if he simply sprung out of the womb with plans to rule the world like Brokenstar, a notoriously lame villain? Yes, Ashfur has an ordinary background, but every villain does. You can reduce literally every villain in the series like this, saying Scourge is just a poser kittypet, Mapleshade is just a fool in love, Tigerstar is just a disgruntled subordinate, Darktail just has daddy issues, and so on and so forth. At that rate, what is the standard of a good villain then? It's utterly absurd. Yes, his motivation is being an incel. So? That's pretty terrifying to me, someone who is so obsessed with this idea of loving someone that they'll hurt anyone to try to obtain it. He's also actually a good manipulator, with the way he tries to get Shadowsight to empathize with him, something no other villain has ever really pulled off very well. Again, this is very true to his motives and character and makes him a lot creepier, that he's much closer to the other characters yet still off. His powers are also neat and make sense, given he is a Starclan cat technically, and they have always had such abilities. Remember Cinderpelt possessing Cinderheart? Ashfur seems to just be doing the same thing really. He is a fallen angel and of course he'd be far more powerful than Dark Forest cats, who are literally rotting away inside of a festering wound of a realm. I agree with a lot of what you said even if I personally dislike him. But I feel like the most frustrating aspect of his character is that in Graystripe's Vow they turned him into a little shit for the sake of it. It felt like an erasure of his "ordinary background" because GV is saying "Yeah he was always an ass and his darker side was always on full display even before we realized he was an incel." I guess I just personally would have found it better if the worst of him was revealed after Squirrelflight became a part of his life rather than "he was just a narsissist" because that's litteraly every other villains issue.
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Bisexual
BrightishWolf
Malcolm Bright enthusiast #saveprodigalson
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Post by BrightishWolf on Jun 28, 2021 16:58:34 GMT -5
What I really don't get is how he's the big bad in TBC. It's been awhile since I've read any of the books he was in (and I haven't read TBC yet, but I've read spoilers), but I never got a villainous vibe from him at all, or that he's this big evil mastermind that he's made out to be in TBC. You're trying to tell me he's pissed at all five Clans just because Squirrelflight chose Brambleclaw over him? Really? Out of any cat they could've chosen to be the big bad and to have the power he does, they chose Ashfur?! And hell, why wait so many moons before acting out his revenge on all the Clans just because a girl didn't choose him?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 28, 2021 17:12:31 GMT -5
What I really don't get is how he's the big bad in TBC. It's been awhile since I've read any of the books he was in (and I haven't read TBC yet, but I've read spoilers), but I never got a villainous vibe from him at all, or that he's this big evil mastermind that he's made out to be in TBC. You're trying to tell me he's pissed at all five Clans just because Squirrelflight chose Brambleclaw over him? Really? Out of any cat they could've chosen to be the big bad and to have the power he does, they chose Ashfur?! And hell, why wait so many moons before acting out his revenge on all the Clans just because a girl didn't choose him? THIS! i dont understand how being rejected translates into "i must destroy all of society even though the society as a whole didnt hurt me, only one cat hurt me."
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 28, 2021 17:18:59 GMT -5
I don't like Ashfur because he's an incel.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jun 28, 2021 17:26:43 GMT -5
I fricking hate incels like him with a burning passion so the fact that he's a villain here and will likely get his face grinded into the dirt as it should will be so so SO cathartic to watch. Erins, WP, for ONCE in your lives do NOT screw this up!
So I fricking hate his guts, but love him as a villain. I love to hate him, he's a scumbag and I hope he gets what he rightfully deserves now that Vicky isn't here to pitycard him now.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 28, 2021 17:26:56 GMT -5
Don't blame Graystripe's Vow for that, TNP had him be like that from the beginning when he makes sneering comments about Cloudtail joining the kittypets to such a degree that even makes him more extreme than Mousefur. Ashfur has ALWAYS been a jerk about that kind of thing since he got a character in TNP (TPB Ashfur had no personality to speak of beyond wanting revenge).
Go read a couple of the deranged manifestos some of Ashfur's real life inspirations put out, I think you'll find this is not uncommon among such a kind of person. Seriously, I don't understand this complaint. There are real life dictators who exist just because they got rejected from art school, a petty reason does not preclude someone doing something monstrous over it.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 28, 2021 17:33:34 GMT -5
What I really don't get is how he's the big bad in TBC. It's been awhile since I've read any of the books he was in (and I haven't read TBC yet, but I've read spoilers), but I never got a villainous vibe from him at all, or that he's this big evil mastermind that he's made out to be in TBC. You're trying to tell me he's pissed at all five Clans just because Squirrelflight chose Brambleclaw over him? Really? Out of any cat they could've chosen to be the big bad and to have the power he does, they chose Ashfur?! And hell, why wait so many moons before acting out his revenge on all the Clans just because a girl didn't choose him? This is how I feel tbh. I stopped reading the series because I was tired of everything revolving around Squirrelflight. I know Ashfur and Squirrelflight had issues in the past, but he had a chance to move on in StarClan, but the writers brought these two back for the sake of a plot. I like that they're finally sending him to the Dark Forest, but is it REALLY necessary to make an entire six books on these two?! Ashfur's original targets were Squirrelflight's family, not all the clans, and what does Shadowsight have to do with him and his problems with Squirrelflight? It feels completely out of character that he's taking out all his issues with Squirrelflight against all five clans. I can understand ThunderClan, but all the others? Come on. They could have easily chosen to make Ashfur move on from Squirrelflight while he was in StarClan instead, but nope they wanted more drama on them again :U!
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Ashfur!?
Jun 28, 2021 17:40:34 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by MadameDelune on Jun 28, 2021 17:40:34 GMT -5
I’m willing to give him a chance at being a serious villain once I read the latest arc. I’m still procrastinating on that btw. But during his previous appearances I liked him! He’s a genuinely unhinged villain
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Post by fire on Jun 28, 2021 20:23:34 GMT -5
i hate him. nothing about him is interesting to me. rant: i refuse to believe that he is some mastermind genius who was able to figure out how to do the crap he's done in TBC on his own. there's no way ashfur, the guy who takes advantage of others plans and takes advantage of situations as they happen, is this master who preplanned all this TBC stuff. there's no way.
i hate how people r now saying "wow ashfur is the most terrifying and powerful villain!" when he isnt and he shouldnt be. he should have been left to the dust to be forgotten about since his story ended YEARS ago. him bring brought back is the worst thing to happen in this series so far imo. to add on to this, I feel like the Erins seriously copped out with the plot. Everything is so forcibly crushed for drama nothing feels genuine. Shadowsight "died" like nine times, Ashfur's personality is just nuked to smithereens bc "drama lol". Past characters like Squirrelflight and Tigerstar get more development while characters like Honeyfur and Leafshade exist as stationary border patrol NPCs.
Ashfur has just ascended to lvl.99 incel and, as a dead cat, somehow controls different realms and spirits in a snap of a finger??? Sorry mapleshade, I know you were persistent to get back at the Clans with what you did to crookedpaw and all over the course of like five generations but Lord Creeptinator's obsession here is apparently stronger than your hatred.
I thought the random ass-pull of Darktail being Onestar's long lost son was bad, but TBC, to me, is just further proof that the Erins are running out of ideas.
By the end of this arc, we will likely get a bang identical to OotS, with all the Clans putting aside their unnecessary rivalry uniting against Ashfur bc papa starclan would've wanted them to, and overcome ashfur with squirrelflight and bramblestar making a super dramatic stand off/fight/whatever and saving the day.
A total of one fossil will die and 5 hollow husks. Hopefully Tigerstar's Good Son™️ will die, but thats unlikely since he's Tigerstar's son and his relationship with Firestar's Daughter™️ may not be milked enough yet. Also the erins like him
The day will be saved and everyone's hunkydory for 2 minutes before going for each other's throat again. Cue ASC. Love this response lmao
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 28, 2021 21:13:14 GMT -5
THIS! i dont understand how being rejected translates into "i must destroy all of society even though the society as a whole didnt hurt me, only one cat hurt me." In Darkness Within it is strongly suggested that Ashfur knows hurting all the Clans will hurt Squirrelflight the most, and his main target is Squirrelflight, so that is probably why…So it’s understandable thats too vague. literally any cat would be hurt by that so why doesnt he just stick to things specifically about squirrelflight? slander he name, make the clans all hate her, set her up to look bad, hurt and kill only cats she truly loves. the "whole clan society" is too vague and doesnt truly fit to ashfur alone.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 28, 2021 21:43:40 GMT -5
What I really don't get is how he's the big bad in TBC. It's been awhile since I've read any of the books he was in (and I haven't read TBC yet, but I've read spoilers), but I never got a villainous vibe from him at all, or that he's this big evil mastermind that he's made out to be in TBC. You're trying to tell me he's pissed at all five Clans just because Squirrelflight chose Brambleclaw over him? Really? Out of any cat they could've chosen to be the big bad and to have the power he does, they chose Ashfur?! And hell, why wait so many moons before acting out his revenge on all the Clans just because a girl didn't choose him? THIS! i dont understand how being rejected translates into "i must destroy all of society even though the society as a whole didnt hurt me, only one cat hurt me." I take it you're not familiar at all with true crime or history? Seriously, this sort of thing is alot more common than you'd think.
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Post by Woofzie on Jun 28, 2021 21:50:39 GMT -5
As someone who has dealt with an incel who threatened to hurt a lot of people just because they were rejected - yes, this happens, quite often. And in their mind, they have a right to do so. Seeing so many people denying this is baffling.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 28, 2021 22:07:43 GMT -5
As someone who has dealt with an incel who threatened to hurt a lot of people just because they were rejected - yes, this happens, quite often. And in their mind, they have a right to do so. Seeing so many people denying this is baffling. Not to mention, potentially dangerous. Fine, hate that the impostor is Ashfur all you want, but do not say that this is unrealistic. There's a reason why this sort of thing is so common and easy to write. If you pay attention to history, true crime media, or even just the current news itself, you'll see that this sort of thing isn't uncommon in the slightest! And that's what makes Ashfur so terrifying.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jun 28, 2021 23:01:02 GMT -5
Hate him as a cat, but love him as a character. (Essay below lol) Bringing him back in TBC is, in my opinion, one of the better writing decisions they've made. His story just didn't feel complete with a half-assed excuse for his entrance into StarClan with nothing but a slap on the wrist (if even that), Vicky taking pity on him despite his association with killing Firestar/trying to kill Squirrelflight's kids, and intending to ruin her life because she told him no. Them taking this problem and then making Ashfur into the main villain while also addressing the flaws of the warrior code and the Clans' blind faith in StarClan is excellent.
Might I also mention that the arc is called The Broken Code. Who better as a villain than someone who once upheld the code, only to start abusing it for their own selfish gains? He also pretty clearly sees himself as above if not actually resentful of Clan culture and society. As for his powers, everything's got to be discovered by someone at some point. Ashfur is likely the only cat actually twisted enough to go out and find it. The imposter being him makes the most sense over any other cat, to me.
Also, Ashfur's motivation here might just be getting rejected, and while it may seem minor, there's also been cases of this with other villains? Sol for example got kicked out of SkyClan and decided to try and get revenge on all the Clans because he couldn't be a warrior. Even though it was SkyClan (more specifically, Leafstar) who did that to him. Both of these cats are taking out their misgivings on the Clans despite only one cat doing it to them, yet Ashfur's the only one who gets vocal attraction regarding it.
He's still in character during TBC as well. He's clearly still obsessed with Squirrelflight despite all the years that passed. Him not moving on from it isn't even retconning established lore. Flametail wasn't able to get over Jayfeather not saving him. Yellowfang couldn't look past her hatred of Brokenstar in OotS, and in Blackfoot's novella, Stonefur and Rosetail clearly hated Blackfoot. Why shouldn't the same be said for Ashfur? His "love" for Squirrelflight is so strong it transcends the afterlife, which, to me, is pretty terrifying in of itself.
His personality is consistent with previous books. Ashfur didn't have much of a personality in TPB (aside from his xenophobia) outside of "loyal apprentice". Leafpool even mentions that Ashfur was always outspoken in Sunrise, so he seems completely in character during Graystripe's Vow, being the argumentative little shit he was. His xenophobia is present throughout TNP (I believe he makes a few offhanded comments about kittypet blood that offends Squirrelflight and Cloudtail), and TBC where he pretty clearly has a dislike of Rootspring's mixed heritage and even condemns Violetshine for taking a non-Clan mate. He discriminates against Squirrelflight's children (like seriously, it was pretty obvious he had a special hatred for Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Alderheart, Sparkpelt, and shows an obvious disdain of Bramblestar). He tries to emotionally control and guilt/manipulate Squirrelflight too, like he did in TNP. He's still an opportunist and clearly didn't plan out this whole "destroy the Clans" goal. Heck, he himself says that all he did was take advantage of an opportunity.
Sure, his ultimate goal of being with Squirrelflight isn't as ambitious as, say, Tigerstar or maybe Darktail, but his one-track mind and obsession with her is what makes him an actual terrifying threat and is also what differentiates him from other antagonists. He has one goal and is clearly willing to do anything, no matter how underhanded and dirty, to get it. Ashfur's arguably the most realistic villain in the series. Yes, all the villains are realistic to an extent, but when was the last time you met someone like Tigerstar, Scourge, or Brokenstar? With someone like Ashfur, chances are you've met a bitter incel at least once. Heck, you might have even had the misfortune of being in a relationship with one. It really isn't too much of a leap for Ashfur to target Squirrelflight's family and then later the Clans out of nothing but petty retaliation, because that's a trait that real-life incels have. His powers? Yes, those are rather unrealistic, but his motivations and actions on the other hand are absolutely not.
I didn't find him that compelling in PoT, but that's changed in this current arc. In TBC he may be a selfish, abusive (not only to just Squirrelflight. Shadowsight, and most if not all of ThunderClan are victims), manipulative, xenophobic, and an all around absolutely horrible cat, but he is an absolute delight to read and definitely one of, if not the, most entertaining villain we've gotten. He's an excellent mix of narcissistic sociopath and entitled incel, with some demonic powers sprinkled in. His characterization is very strong, and I'm all for it. His descent from a generally good natured warrior to the monster he is now is great and easily one of his best aspects.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Jun 29, 2021 0:15:00 GMT -5
I love him as a villain, just because I like how he’s a perfect example of what happens when someone’s issues never get resolved. His case is a little bit different than most because the full consequences of this are only shown after he died, but it still makes sense. Characters effectively live a second life after they die, so why wouldn’t his issues in the mortal world still bother him in the afterlife? And since they warped his thinking so much, why wouldn’t he resort to any means to any means to satisfy them (including using things never seen in the series before)? There’s so many other characters that could use their unresolved issues to cause chaos, even though they were (considered) good people in life and went to basically the equivalent of heaven. I would’ve preferred something like that for the dark forest battle then some random evil generic characters that most readers have never heard of before then (as much as I like diabolical villains sometimes and some of them were familiar faces from very early on). Hollyleaf, Bluestar (last minute realization on her deathbed doesn’t count, especially with how unstable she was a revealed to be in her prequel), Needletail, Rowanclaw/star, Onestar, Mudclaw and Clear Sky could all be candidates for this, and those are just the ones I can think of off the top my head. It’s for me wondering if someone acknowledge the concept of therapy to treat mental wounds, because so many characters could have their issues resolved or at least be recovering from them if they were competent therapists around. Part of me hopes this is my Tree would be, but alas, it was not to be... there was also a fan theory going around that Ferncloud would eventually set up something like this, but that also never happened...
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Post by Rainfire on Jun 29, 2021 1:20:01 GMT -5
I used to hate his guts because it annoyed me to no end how the books pre-TBC framed him as some poor tragic character that people should feel sorry for.
Now that he's finally being treated like the horrible person(cat?) he is by the writing, I still hate him but I'm having fun hating him now lol. Ashfur's actions and his line of thought regarding them have legit disturbed me ever since Long Shadows came out, so it's been pretty surreal(in an awesome way) for me to see him still at it after all these years. He's the main reason I find TBC to be so creepy, and I love it
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Post by kells on Jun 29, 2021 2:05:06 GMT -5
As someone who has dealt with an incel who threatened to hurt a lot of people just because they were rejected - yes, this happens, quite often. And in their mind, they have a right to do so. Seeing so many people denying this is baffling. I don't mean to speak for most of ppl who're against Ashfur, but I doubt that most of us just dislike this arc because "ew, evil incel". I'm well aware how unpredictable someone like Ashfur can be in reality, and I'm sure many others are too. My issue isnt Ashfur is an incel My issue isnt that he wants to hurt other people because of his rejection rant below It's the way he this is executed. After the dust settled on his arc, he's suddenly dredged up from nowhere with the ability to control different dimensions. Not even Mapleshade or Tigerstar01 have achieved this, and Mapleshade was easily more unhinged and obsessive than Ashfur, as she successfully killed three cats and attempted to kill a a queen, too, before harrasing the entirety of ThunderClan for several generations. Tigerstar spent like three generations trying to get someone to kill Firestar, I guess Ashfur was just smarter than the entirety of Dark Forest and more determined, too.
Even in the flashback with Graystripe, he's shown as this enraged rabid animal who's so obviously evil, which isn't like Ashfur at all. And no, Ashfur showing his distaste for kittypets is not the same as showing obvious "I'm the Big Bad" tones that the Erins slap on every villain. If hating kittypets means he always showed evilness, than this would justify 80% of ThunderClan suddenly being shown as evil, like Dustpelt, Longtail... etc
The series literally hammers in how powerless StarClan is, and how they can only give cats their lives, especially in OotS, where StarClan was literally falling apart. But with the recent books, we have Gray Wing showing the future, and the worst offender: Ashfur literally cutting off StarClan's connection, possessing other cats, and forming a ghost cat army... what???
I would enjoy this if it there was more reason to this, regardless of whether he was a crazy incel or not. He could've returned in the arc before, attempting to pull a Sol on the Clans behind StarClan's back. Something that makes more sense than just randomly giving him god-like powers.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jun 29, 2021 7:21:35 GMT -5
It's kinda just funny to me read ashfur as this big evil force, given the fact that he's only this evil because one cat rejected him. He's a good villain I just can't take him seriously.
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