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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 21, 2021 8:44:03 GMT -5
I can understand and agree with Mudclaw being mad about being demoted last second...but slaughtering innocent clanmates and making a Riverclan cat the deputy of Windclan? I can’t really fathom how anyone can agree with actions like those. I mean like, I won’t stop you from supporting Mudclaw as a character, but an ambushing murder on cats who are innocent? Based on a lie from a cat from another clan, which is weird considering his issue is literally with getting help from other clans? It’s just wild to me I guess. I don’t think Mudclaw is some awful monster, but he certainly is capable of slaughtering innocent cats and being manipulated like a kit. That’s...not very solid for a leader figure. I think honestly that neither side can say that at that exact time, one option would have been way better or way worse a leader. We’ll never know how Mudclaw was as leader, but I do know that he was aggressive, bitter and quick to anger. Even back then, I never thought Mudclaw would make for a good leader, even before Onewhisker was part of the equation. His book and story just proved that he wouldn’t be a good leader to me.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 21, 2021 12:10:42 GMT -5
If Tallstar hadn't betrayed him in the first place, I think Mudclaw would have been a fine leader for WindClan. At most he'd be as tolerant as Leopardstar and Blackstar, who made notable mistakes and were manipulated but were still competent leaders with morals. As I said before, Mudclaw was't my first choice, Deadfoot was, but I still preferred him over a coward like Onewhisker, and a doormat like Ashfoot.
Tallstar was at least right in the sense that WindClan did need a strong leader, but became blinded with bias later and switched things up at the last second. Which is why I wasn't surprised in the least at how Mudclaw felt betrayed, his frustration toward Onewhisker's and Ashfoot's incompetence, and how suspicious the change was in the first place.
He gave Onewhisker a chance to stand down, but Onewhisker remained, to him at least, as a pawn to Firestar, and was willing to give away land that their clan needed. If a leader isn't willing to make tough decisions for the better good of their clan, then what kind of a leader are they tbh? There's a reason why coups happen in history, and sacrifices are necessary for the better good. As far as I see it, Onewhisker would have been one of those necessary sacrifices.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 21, 2021 13:13:58 GMT -5
I’m still not ever going to support or approve of murdering Onewhisker with 0 proof of him ever deserving it lol. Absolutely not, Mudclaw has no right to decide who lives or dies based on his warped view on what’s right or wrong for Windclan. Why would Onewhisker ever stand down when Mudclaw is invading the camp with Warriors from other clans and breaking the code by aiming to kill clan cats? Sacrifice? Mudclaw was willing to murder in cold blood because he thought he and only he could ever be right. I guess Ashfur’s attempted murders are okay too because he felt like he was wronged and making things right again? Mudclaw endangering Windclan like that shows awful leadership skills and a lack of ability to communicate and respond maturely to change. Not a leader at all.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 21, 2021 13:27:00 GMT -5
Imo, i think Mudclaw would have been a terrible leader, regardless if he was betrayed or not. He's too stubborn, reckless, hotheaded and impulsive to ever be a fine leader. He's a cat you can't be reasonable with. Several times not hesitating to attack and spill blood, once trespassing territory on purpose, once almost starting a war, almost killing 2 of his Clanmates because of his bruised ego in the Thunderpath, and almost letting a Clanmate be murdered because of Tallstar's decision. After all of these it should have demoted him already. And note in almost all of these instances he wasn't willing to listen. And not only that, but many people speak of Onewhisker's petty grudge against Firestar, when in reality, Mudclaw had one too. He was resentful, bitter and refused to cooperate with Firestar and ThunderClan just because of his pride. It would have been damaging for his Clan to ever need their help just for Mudclaw, or Mudstar, to refuse it because he can't swallow the thought of Firestar helping them. But it dosen't only include Firestar, he has a huge problem with communication and inablity to admit his mistakes in general. He's not leader material at all.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 21, 2021 13:32:30 GMT -5
The problem with Onestar is that he was just as bad as Tallstar feared Mudclaw would be and did everything that his leader didn't want, which disregarded the entire point of him having been made leader in the first place. He let Onestar down and it doesn't matter, really, who he chose in the end because Onestar failed him anyway. The point is, they're just as bad as each other but Tallstar understandably thought Onestar would be better. And in WoC? He was reasonable. Tallstar had no way of seeing into the future. He could only based it on what he knew at the time. Hindsight is 20/20. Onestar was a better choice at the time. Exactly this! At the moment Onewhisker was made deputy, he was a reasonable, fair, and wise cat so he was the best choice at the moment. And note that Tallstar said he had a dream with Mudstar standing at the top of a hill with cats wailing for their kits in the middle of a battle. So Tallstar could only interpret that as a sign to chance his deputy. Not only that, but it's totally understandable and fair that he wants friendship with ThunderClan. They can help eachother and give advice with their own Clans, and no blood is spilled, wich is an adventage.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 21, 2021 19:12:08 GMT -5
Then why continuously claim that people are trying to excuse Mudclaw's actions just because Onestar turned out the way he did. No one is saying you can't disagree, just like how we disagree that Mudclaw would have been no different than Onestar if he were leader instead, but my point still stands. It definitely feels like people are missing the point if this claim is continuously brought up. since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions. I mean, I like Thistleclaw, so that's obviously not true about me. I don't feel those generalizations are fair and are rather dismissive. I like several antagonists. Just because I dislike Mudclaw and don't think he's justified doesn't mean I don't understand him
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 21, 2021 19:16:52 GMT -5
since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions. I mean, I like Thistleclaw, so that's obviously not true about me Right, like, I like Breezepelt. I’m more than happy to see any POV and still see that Mudclaw would make for a bad leader all on his own lol
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 21, 2021 19:18:57 GMT -5
I mean, I like Thistleclaw, so that's obviously not true about me Right, like, I like Breezepelt. I’m more than happy to see any POV and still see that Mudclaw would make for a bad leader all on his own lol Exactly. Also, liking one antagonist does not mean I have to like them all.
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