akiko
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Post by akiko on Jun 19, 2021 16:43:04 GMT -5
Some people think Mudclaw would've sucked as a leader and that Onestar was the better fit. However, I disagree entirely and I think he makes a lot more sense as leader than Onestar. There are many reasons for this.
1. Onestar Was A Disgrace To Tallstar And Mudclaw
Tallstar wanted peace between the Clans. Peace and friendship. The whole reason he chose to name Onewhisker the new leader of WindClan was because he believed he would make sure things remained peaceful between WindClan and ThunderClan, with the help of Firestar. He trusted Onestar not to let him down, to make sure things remained peaceful and that no random battles started for no reason. If he had lived longer, I think he would've teamed up with Firestar to help achieve peace between the Clans, sorta like what seems to be happening in the modern books. By making this decision, he put full trust in Onewhisker and had to make the hard choice to demote Mudclaw.
Then what did Onestar do? He went and did the opposite of what Tallstar wanted and ruined the friendship WindClan had built with ThunderClan over the years completely. He disgraced Tallstar by doing this and, to an extent, Mudclaw, who lost his leadership for no reason since Onestar did exactly what Tallstar said Mudclaw would do anyway. All because he wanted his Clanmates to respect him or somethin'. Then there's how he dealt with Darktail...yeah, he should've remained a normal warrior. But, to be fair, Tallstar didn't know of his little relationship.
He also knew that he was defying Tallstar's dying wish and the entire reason he was made leader in the first place.
2. Onestar Did The Same Thing Tallstar Accused Mudclaw Of Doing
Onestar began to antagonize ThunderClan for no reason for the most part, picking fights and saying hurtful things to Firestar that could've started battles...and he did start battles with them. Tallstar thought Mudclaw would hate on ThunderClan for no reason and would start petty fights, yet it turned out that Onestar was the cat who did that. Onestar refused to keep the peace. He was hypocritical in Winds Of Change when he told Mudclaw off for what he said about ThunderClan because he literally said worse things about them in later books. He sneers at Firestar for being helpful in the same way Tallstar was scared Mudclaw would do. He had poor communication with them in times of need and even refused to help the other Clans one time too many.
As I said in the first point: he's a disgrace to the former leader and deputy.
3. Mudclaw Wanted A Strong Clan, Onestar Wanted Respect
While I have no doubt that Onestar, indeed, did want a strong Clan and wanted his Clan to succeed, he seemed to want respect more than anything. Respect from his Clanmates and the other Clans became a priority of his, and no doubt a selfish desire, especially when you see how he acted in Crowfeather's Trial. He was a pushy cat. Became overly proud. His leadership got to his head, I believe, which is why he probably started antagonizing others to begin with. He even tells Ashfoot to shut up when Crowfeather runs off. Even if he was doing this because he wanted a strong Clan, he became selfish with his need for respect and power over his Clan.
Mudclaw wanted his Clan to be strong and feared that Onestar was being manipulated and had been told to steal his place. Sure, battles may have started, but Onestar did the same thing anyway and Mudclaw just wanted his Clan to be safe and secure. He didn't want them to be controlled by the other Clans and had a sense of paranoia about it, which was in part Hawkfrost's fault. He wanted his Clan to be safe from manipulation and being pushed around.
4. Different Outcomes In AVOS
I feel like certain things would've been different had Mudclaw become Mudstar. And by this, the A Vision Of Shadows arc would've been way different. Mudstar wouldn't have tolerated Darktail's antics at all and would've, for once, likely stepped in to help the Clans rid the forest of that crazy cat. He wouldn't have had a connection to him and wouldn't have been all fearful. Sure, maybe he'd have been harsh on Onewhisker, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Onewhisker had been dead by that point had Mudstar been made leader. Onestar didn't redeem himself by killing his son in my opinion. He made himself look worse to me despite saving the Clans.
My only issue is that he may have chosen Hawkfrost as deputy. Yet he also overheard Hawkfrost and if he had survived the incident two minutes later, perhaps a whole change of heart would've happened for him...making me even more certain he'd have been the right fit.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 19, 2021 17:04:33 GMT -5
I doubt Mudclaw would have wanted to help the Clans get rid of Darktail together rather than just trying to do the whole thing on his own.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 19, 2021 17:11:37 GMT -5
i agree. im an outspoken mudclaw loyalist and defender. and i strongly believe mudclaw would not be as bad as onestar. first of all, onestar was always a coward. he felt peer pressured into accepting leadership, but his baseless attack in Eclipse is outright PROOF that he pushed blame onto firestar (and thunderclan) for making him become leader when he didnt feel ready to be one yet. and since mudclaw would never have a personal, petty vendetta against thunderclan if he became leader like he was supposed to, the eclipse battle simply would never happen. mudclaw would get windclan to be more protective of borders, but people perceive this act as "too violent." uh, it's called protecting your land and feeding your community first and foremost above anything else. mudclaw has ever right to strengthen windclan this way, especially after they were utterly humiliated and driven out by shadowclan not that long ago.
onestar wanted respect he didnt deserve. he never earned anything. he was handed deputyship without ever serving a deputy. he was handed respect just because some other cats peer pressured him into doing something he didnt want to.
and idk what kind of argument this is (and i dont really care if its a weak argument), but i will say it anyways: if mudclaw was never wronged, he would never have resorted to the things he did. just because we know he is capable of doing it if he was wronged, doesnt mean he would do it if he just got what was rightfully his according to the law. he served as deputy. he is the rightful leader no matter what anyone says.
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akiko
I am here to slayyy
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Post by akiko on Jun 19, 2021 17:26:53 GMT -5
i agree. im an outspoken mudclaw loyalist and defender. and i strongly believe mudclaw would not be as bad as onestar. first of all, onestar was always a coward. he felt peer pressured into accepting leadership, but his baseless attack in Eclipse is outright PROOF that he pushed blame onto firestar (and thunderclan) for making him become leader when he didnt feel ready to be one yet. and since mudclaw would never have a personal, petty vendetta against thunderclan if he became leader like he was supposed to, the eclipse battle simply would never happen. mudclaw would get windclan to be more protective of borders, but people perceive this act as "too violent." uh, it's called protecting your land and feeding your community first and foremost above anything else. mudclaw has ever right to strengthen windclan this way, especially after they were utterly humiliated and driven out by shadowclan not that long ago. onestar wanted respect he didnt deserve. he never earned anything. he was handed deputyship without ever serving a deputy. he was handed respect just because some other cats peer pressured him into doing something he didnt want to. and idk what kind of argument this is (and i dont really care if its a weak argument), but i will say it anyways: if mudclaw was never wronged, he would never have resorted to the things he did. just because we know he is capable of doing it if he was wronged, doesnt mean he would do it if he just got what was rightfully his according to the law. he served as deputy. he is the rightful leader no matter what anyone says. Exactly!! Mudclaw wouldn't baselessly attack another Clan, he'd just defend his borders for the most part and make sure no cat stole crap that belonged to WindClan, sorta like Blackstar and Leopardstar did. Onestar took things to extremes most of the time. Now ThunderClan and ShadowClan have a better relationship because all Onestar did was hurt Firestar's feelings and piss them off all the time. And remember Crowfeather's Trial? Onestar threw a fricking fit over Crowfeather wanting to ask ThunderClan for help. Even if Mudclaw had forbade that himself, keep in mind Tallstar chose Onestar so he could avoid this...it honestly doesn't matter that he chose Onestar and his choice was in vain.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 19, 2021 17:45:40 GMT -5
akiko i dont like tallstar just for the fact he messed up and insisted onewhisker replace him...like onestar basically skipped being deputy and got instantly promoted to leader out of nowhere...so unfair and dumb. idk how starclan justified any of this lol.
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akiko
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Post by akiko on Jun 19, 2021 17:48:02 GMT -5
akiko i dont like tallstar just for the fact he messed up and insisted onewhisker replace him...like onestar basically skipped being deputy and got instantly promoted to leader out of nowhere...so unfair and dumb. idk how starclan justified any of this lol. Yeah, lol. That sucked. Mudclaw didn't even get a warning or any sort of head's up and nobody even consulted him first before announcing Onewhisker's leadership. Was overall shocking for him and unfair all around. Of course he'd be hurt and shocked.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 19, 2021 18:27:12 GMT -5
Look, I’m really sorry, but a cat willing to openly slaughter his own clanmates for not getting to be leader and who so stupidly follows a Riverclan Warrior and promises that same Riverclan cat deputyship after launching a plan to overthrow Riverclan doesn’t really have credence for good leadership for me. I don’t really care who would have been better, at the time, Mudclaw was not the cat Tallstar wanted for leadership. If he truly loved Windclan and his clanmates, he’d support them without stooping to such a level. He was as much a fool as Onestar became.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 19, 2021 18:32:13 GMT -5
Look, I’m really sorry, but a cat willing to openly slaughter his own clanmates for not getting to be leader and who so stupidly follows a Riverclan Warrior and promises that same Riverclan cat deputyship after launching a plan to overthrow Riverclan doesn’t really have credence for good leadership for me. I don’t really care who would have been better, at the time, Mudclaw was not the cat Tallstar wanted for leadership. If he truly loved Windclan and his clanmates, he’d support them without stooping to such a level. He was as much a fool as Onestar became. Took the words out of my mouth. Thank you for saying this! Both of them would have been horrible leaders. We don’t know what kind of leader Mudclaw would’ve been, but we can assume based off his manga that he would’ve been horrible too. Better choices would be Tornear or Ashfoot. Or if Deadfoot survived and became Deadstar I would’ve liked that.
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akiko
I am here to slayyy
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Post by akiko on Jun 19, 2021 18:36:41 GMT -5
Ashfoot was good. I liked her a lot. Very much. Her death made me angry because grrr c'monnn she was such a good deputy.
Onestar treated her like crap when Crowfeather went missing which irked me. I think she deserved to become leader.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 19, 2021 20:50:31 GMT -5
Look, I’m really sorry, but a cat willing to openly slaughter his own clanmates for not getting to be leader and who so stupidly follows a Riverclan Warrior and promises that same Riverclan cat deputyship after launching a plan to overthrow Riverclan doesn’t really have credence for good leadership for me. I don’t really care who would have been better, at the time, Mudclaw was not the cat Tallstar wanted for leadership. If he truly loved Windclan and his clanmates, he’d support them without stooping to such a level. He was as much a fool as Onestar became. Took the words out of my mouth. Thank you for saying this! Both of them would have been horrible leaders. We don’t know what kind of leader Mudclaw would’ve been, but we can assume based off his manga that he would’ve been horrible too. Better choices would be Tornear or Ashfoot. Or if Deadfoot survived and became Deadstar I would’ve liked that. Agreed with you both! And really, the fact that Onestar turned out to be terrible later on does and should not change the fact that Mudclaw himself still conspired with a cat from another Clan, led a rebellion, and planned on getting Onewhisker killed not once, but twice. I really could care less how much he believed he was doing the right thing and I hate that the series took this approach with him (unsurprisingly, of course, but still). As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and I really wish this fandom would quit it with the whataboutisms already.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jun 19, 2021 21:09:05 GMT -5
Took the words out of my mouth. Thank you for saying this! Both of them would have been horrible leaders. We don’t know what kind of leader Mudclaw would’ve been, but we can assume based off his manga that he would’ve been horrible too. Better choices would be Tornear or Ashfoot. Or if Deadfoot survived and became Deadstar I would’ve liked that. Agreed with you both! And really, the fact that Onestar turned out to be terrible later on does and should not change the fact that Mudclaw himself still conspired with a cat from another Clan, led a rebellion, and planned on getting Onewhisker killed not once, but twice. I really could care less how much he believed he was doing the right thing and I hate that the series took this approach with him (unsurprisingly, of course, but still). As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and I really wish this fandom would quit it with the whataboutisms already. Couldn't agree more. The only thing I think he's truly justified in is being angry and petty that he got demoted. It was absolutely a shady switch and Tallstar should have done it differently (would it have been so hard to just announce it to WindClan, or at the very least Barkface?). He's right to be angry and hurt given the circumstances, but he blew it way out of proportion by being petty and even trying to resort to killing and overthrowing the leadership, Ashfoot in particular being innocent in this entire scenario. Sure, he thinks he's doing the right thing, has a genuine love for his Clan, and told himself he's doing it in WindClan's best interests, but it doesn't change what he tried to do to get the leadership and Onestar ending up being a terrible leader in the end does not justify it either.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 19, 2021 22:02:29 GMT -5
The idea that Mudclaw would be some advocate for level headed thinking and only advocating necessary battles is completely baseless. Allow me to point to this scene
Twice he disobeys Tallstar in this scene. One time he almost starts a war and embarrasses Windclan over a petty insult and has to be dragged back by the tail like he's a naughty kit. Is this really the cat who seems like he'll be measured? No, he was reckless to begin with. Moreover, he was reckless in The New Prophecy too, when he disregarded Crowpaw's advice in favor of just barging ahead with his own ideas. This is a running problem with Mudclaw, that he thinks he knows best in all situations and doesn't even begin to consider any solution besides battle.
What Onestar became later was horrible, but we have the benefit of seeing him at his worse. Mudclaw we never did get to see because his attempt to assassinate at the bare minimum FOUR cats failed and he didn't even bother to stick around for the consequences, simply fleeing the scene rather than owning up to any of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 22:21:40 GMT -5
Just because he felt he was justified, that doesn't cancel out all the BS and outright traitorous actions he committed. By this logic, Tigerstar I was right to scheme against and backstab TC because Bluestar ended up becoming inept and bitter like Onestar and he felt entitled to the deputy/leader position. Just because Onestar turned out to be an asshat does not in any way change the fact that Mudclaw was willing to murder two of his Clanmates (one of which had nothing to do with his problems), attack his own littermate, ally with two rival Clans to attack his own kin and Clanmates and promise deputyship to a RiverClan cat while being complicit to said cat's plot to take over the Clans (KNOWING that it will cause pain/suffering/bloodshed alike to Tigerstar's era). Who knows if any of his Clanmates on the other side would've been badly hurt or killed if the battle lasted longer, all because of Mudclaw's pettiness and entitlement.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 19, 2021 23:34:34 GMT -5
Onestar being a terrible leader later on does not suddenly make Mudclaw a saint
Reminder that he was willing to give HAWKFROST deputyship and then help him take over Riverclan if it meant overthrowing Onestar. He also plotted to kill the innocent ASHFOOT, and contemplated letting a fox murder Onestar (when Onestar was actively trying to be a good leader). He was not rebelling for the good of Windclan, he was rebelling because his ego was bruised. His whole graphic novel is about him trying to justify his actions by telling himself it was about Windclan's safety. If you have to constantly justify your bad actions in your head, you are probably lying to yourself about the real reason for your actions
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 20, 2021 0:11:50 GMT -5
I think the point is being missed.
No one is saying Mudclaw is more level headed, or would be a perfect leader just because Onestar turned out horrible.
We're saying that Mudclaw in comparison to Onestar, out of the two, WOULD be the better choice.
And I agree with the others that also believe Mudclaw is the better choice; he actually had credentials under his belt, his clanmates respected him, and he was already practically leading the clan. Just because he wasn't Firestar's bestie and more of a cowardly doormat, he was unfairly stripped of his positon, and not even properly. There was no reason for Tallstar not to have him come to that meeting, especially when he was noted to be in the camp area, and resting. There was absolutely NO REASON for Tallstar to do what he did. Especially because of how Mudclaw accepted Tallstar's words in StarClan.
The only reason the whole rebellion happened in the first place was because Fire, Bramble, and One were all incredibly suspicious with how they went about the whole situation. And made others wonder if it was the truth or not, even more so since Bramble was indeed withholding information, which Mudclaw suspected as well. I do not blame Mudclaw for not trusting them at all, they were a from a rival clan, and trying to decide everything for them, they had no right to have their noses in WC business in the first place.
Onestar was a coward, and Ashfoot was a doormat, and considering the hardships WC would have to deal with after settling from the lake, Mudclaw wanted a stronger leader to help his clan. I highly doubt he would have had an issue with the change if Tallstar told him to his face, and not wait until he died (literally could have just visited him in his dream too lmfao).
People can agree that both were bad choices, but people area also allowed to believe that one is still better out of the two, and for me it's still Mudclaw. If it were actually up to me I'd rather we get Deadstar over anyone else, believe it or not, but when it comes to Mud vs One, Mudclaw is still the better choice. Onestar never deserved his position after betraying his clan and abandoning his mate and kits to die. He never wanted to be deputy in the first place and was too cowardly to announce the change himself that he had to crawl to Firestar for help. Then he turns around and spits on Firestar's friendship, and Tallstar's last wishes, and becomes the monster Tallstar feared Mudclaw would have been, how ironic.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 20, 2021 2:58:02 GMT -5
I think the point is being missed. No one is saying Mudclaw is more level headed, or would be a perfect leader just because Onestar turned out horrible. We're saying that Mudclaw in comparison to Onestar, out of the two, WOULD be the better choice. We aren't missing the point, we just disagree with the one you're trying to make
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 20, 2021 3:46:59 GMT -5
akiko i dont like tallstar just for the fact he messed up and insisted onewhisker replace him...like onestar basically skipped being deputy and got instantly promoted to leader out of nowhere...so unfair and dumb. idk how starclan justified any of this lol. Yeah, lol. That sucked. Mudclaw didn't even get a warning or any sort of head's up and nobody even consulted him first before announcing Onewhisker's leadership. Was overall shocking for him and unfair all around. Of course he'd be hurt and shocked. I can understand why Tallstar didin't tell him face-to-face, though. He would have thrown a petty fit and he would have reacted agressive and hotheaded, possibly insulting Onewhisker and stubbornly refusing to be demoted to being a warrior. This was shown with Mudclaw's rebellion.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 20, 2021 9:57:12 GMT -5
Everyone's always saying Mudclaw or Onestar, but what about Ashfoot? They're both just as bad tbh, while I like Mudclaw as a well written antagonist, because of his trust issues I feel like that would make him a bad leader. Look at Bluestar - she closed off her own boarders and started fights with her own clan because she didn't trust the other Clans, and wanted to attack WindClan. She wasn't a good leader at all because of her trust issues; it made her less reasonable with others. Mudclaw was too protective of his clan, and gave a lot of his Clanmates a hard time to get along with him just because Onewhisker became deputy. Onewhisker offered him a chance to become deputy and Mudclaw didn't want it. Instead he decided to try to kill Onewhisker, knowing it was wrong. After that, he really doesn't deserve to be clan leader, and I don't think he'd make a good one if he'd lived. Maybe a good deputy, but not a leader. No thanks. They're both bad. Ashfoot should have been deputy over there two far sooner. She was reasonable, fair, wise, and didn't start shit between the clans nor was she hostile with them for no reason like Mudclaw was. She was always kind but also made sure her clan was protected. She would have been the perfect cat for leader
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 20, 2021 10:07:23 GMT -5
Everyone's always saying Mudclaw or Onestar, but what about Ashfoot? They're both just as bad tbh, while I like Mudclaw as a well written antagonist, because of his trust issues I feel like that would make him a bad leader. Look at Bluestar - she closed off her own boarders and started fights with her own clan because she didn't trust the other Clans, and wanted to attack WindClan. She wasn't a good leader at all because of her trust issues; it made her less reasonable with others. Mudclaw was too protective of his clan, and gave a lot of his Clanmates a hard time to get along with him just because Onewhisker became deputy. Onewhisker offered him a chance to become deputy and Mudclaw didn't want it. Instead he decided to try to kill Onewhisker, knowing it was wrong. After that, he really doesn't deserve to be clan leader, and I don't think he'd make a good one if he'd lived. Maybe a good deputy, but not a leader. No thanks. They're both bad. Ashfoot should have been deputy over there two far sooner. She was reasonable, fair, wise, and didn't start shit between the clans nor was she hostile with them for no reason like Mudclaw was. She was always kind but also made sure her clan was protected. She would have been the perfect cat for leader I totally agree. Both were terrible and handled things really wrong- Mudclaw wasn't inmediately a better choice just because Onestar turned out to be worse. Give me Ashfoot with Tornear as deputy instead!
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Aroace
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 20, 2021 12:54:32 GMT -5
Both Onestar and Mudclaw suck, just in different aspects. I would have loved to see either of Crowfeather's parents as leaders instead. Deadstar or Ashstar also sounds way better, in my personal opinion.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 20, 2021 13:43:05 GMT -5
Onestar being a terrible leader later on does not suddenly make Mudclaw a saint Reminder that he was willing to give HAWKFROST deputyship and then help him take over Riverclan if it meant overthrowing Onestar. He also plotted to kill the innocent ASHFOOT, and contemplated letting a fox murder Onestar (when Onestar was actively trying to be a good leader). He was not rebelling for the good of Windclan, he was rebelling because his ego was bruised. His whole graphic novel is about him trying to justify his actions by telling himself it was about Windclan's safety. If you have to constantly justify your bad actions in your head, you are probably lying to yourself about the real reason for your actions As much as I don't like Mudclaw, I have to disagree here. I think he WAS trying to do what he thought was best for his clan, but his worries, distrust and manipulation from Hawkfrost convinced him to try to kill Onewhisker and Ashfoot. He truly thought One wasn't the right leader, and his thoughts about how he was worried about his clan felt genuine to me. Fear for his clan, and his bruised ego, is what drove him to do all these terrible things. And to me, this makes him a well written antagonist. Deep down he knew he was wrong to do all these things, but he still thought it was "right". I don't like Mudclaw as a person. He's a petty asshole. But as an antagonist? He's actually well written. He was fooled by Hawkfrost and in the end, made his own choice to murder and paid the price for it. It really made me appreciate his character, even if I don't like how people try to excuse how he's "better than Onestar" (I don't believe he's better than him, both are just as bad) I completely understand why Mudclaw did all these things. People see him as a jerk who's petty because he didn't get what he wanted, and he is, don't get me wrong, but there's so much more to his character than that and I think that's what makes Mudclaw an interesting character, which is saying a lot from me because I disliked him entirely until I understood his fears and hostility more. But his fans need to understand that Onestar's actions do not make Mudclaw innocent. In the end, Ashfoot should have become leader over Onestar. She's fair, wise and kind, and had her own boundaries with the clans. She would have been perfect for WindClan.
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Post by cygna on Jun 20, 2021 13:58:09 GMT -5
Mudclaw has MAJOR issues but I can't say he would have been worse than Onestar who dragged his poor clan into unnecessary battles out of pettiness and had an affair that nearly destroyed the clans because he couldn't swallow his dam pride and take care of his child.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 20, 2021 14:13:04 GMT -5
I think the point is being missed. No one is saying Mudclaw is more level headed, or would be a perfect leader just because Onestar turned out horrible. We're saying that Mudclaw in comparison to Onestar, out of the two, WOULD be the better choice. We aren't missing the point, we just disagree with the one you're trying to make Then why continuously claim that people are trying to excuse Mudclaw's actions just because Onestar turned out the way he did. No one is saying you can't disagree, just like how we disagree that Mudclaw would have been no different than Onestar if he were leader instead, but my point still stands. It definitely feels like people are missing the point if this claim is continuously brought up.
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akiko
I am here to slayyy
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Post by akiko on Jun 20, 2021 15:39:52 GMT -5
The problem with Onestar is that he was just as bad as Tallstar feared Mudclaw would be and did everything that his leader didn't want, which disregarded the entire point of him having been made leader in the first place. He let Onestar down and it doesn't matter, really, who he chose in the end because Onestar failed him anyway.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 20, 2021 19:05:49 GMT -5
The problem with Onestar is that he was just as bad as Tallstar feared Mudclaw would be and did everything that his leader didn't want, which disregarded the entire point of him having been made leader in the first place. He let Onestar down and it doesn't matter, really, who he chose in the end because Onestar failed him anyway. The point is, they're just as bad as each other but Tallstar understandably thought Onestar would be better. And in WoC? He was reasonable. Tallstar had no way of seeing into the future. He could only based it on what he knew at the time. Hindsight is 20/20. Onestar was a better choice at the time.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 20, 2021 19:43:08 GMT -5
We aren't missing the point, we just disagree with the one you're trying to make Then why continuously claim that people are trying to excuse Mudclaw's actions just because Onestar turned out the way he did. No one is saying you can't disagree, just like how we disagree that Mudclaw would have been no different than Onestar if he were leader instead, but my point still stands. It definitely feels like people are missing the point if this claim is continuously brought up. since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 20, 2021 21:36:38 GMT -5
Then why continuously claim that people are trying to excuse Mudclaw's actions just because Onestar turned out the way he did. No one is saying you can't disagree, just like how we disagree that Mudclaw would have been no different than Onestar if he were leader instead, but my point still stands. It definitely feels like people are missing the point if this claim is continuously brought up. since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions. This is why I don't debate very often in general. Adding onto this, whenever you defend a character, somebody else who doesn't like that certain character will always bash that one and refuse to see their side or understand them. DoveIvy, SquirrelBramble, Bumblestripe, NightCrow, and MudOne topics comes to mind about these examples. I normally just try to understand both sides and leave it at that. Debating is pointless most of the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 20, 2021 22:14:31 GMT -5
since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions. This is why I don't debate very often in general. Adding onto this, whenever you defend a character, somebody else who doesn't like that certain character will always bash that one and refuse to see their side or understand them. DoveIvy, SquirrelBramble, Bumblestripe, NightCrow, and MudOne topics comes to mind about these examples. I normally just try to understand both sides and leave it at that. Debating is pointless most of the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ yeah i openly admit to still learning that lesson when it comes to discussions on things.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 20, 2021 22:38:44 GMT -5
Then why continuously claim that people are trying to excuse Mudclaw's actions just because Onestar turned out the way he did. No one is saying you can't disagree, just like how we disagree that Mudclaw would have been no different than Onestar if he were leader instead, but my point still stands. It definitely feels like people are missing the point if this claim is continuously brought up. since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions. As someone who's been very open to loving the more controversial characters in the series (Skystar, Needletail), no. I get it. Like, completely. I myself was even neutral on Mudclaw before the graphic novel came out, but I understood where he was coming from and I still do. But you can't deny that this fandom has a whataboutism problem. I have yet to see a Mudclaw discussion that also doesn't bring up what Onestar does in the future, something Tallstar couldn't have possibly known, or by talking about what ifs. I really couldn't care less about what Mudclaw could have been (and this goes for any character, really). And that right there is what's so frustrating, because absolutely none of this changes the fact that as we see him, this is still the same cat who contemplated on murdering several cats and still the same cat who conspired with a RiverClan cat to the point of promising him deputyship of WindClan. Yes, everything about Tallstar's change seemed suspicious, it's what I've been saying for years (seriously, there were better alternatives to how Tallstar handled it). And yes, he was manipulated. But just because I understand Mudclaw doesn't mean I have to support him.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 21, 2021 8:26:58 GMT -5
since im an open mudclaw supporter and stuff, i've just learned to accept that hardly anyone will agree with me. its pointless to debate since no one wants to see things from an antagonist's pov in fear of being accused of "excusing" or "justifying" their bad actions. As someone who's been very open to loving the more controversial characters in the series (Skystar, Needletail), no. I get it. Like, completely. I myself was even neutral on Mudclaw before the graphic novel came out, but I understood where he was coming from and I still do. But you can't deny that this fandom has a whataboutism problem. I have yet to see a Mudclaw discussion that also doesn't bring up what Onestar does in the future, something Tallstar couldn't have possibly known, or by talking about what ifs. I really couldn't care less about what Mudclaw could have been (and this goes for any character, really). And that right there is what's so frustrating, because absolutely none of this changes the fact that as we see him, this is still the same cat who contemplated on murdering several cats and still the same cat who conspired with a RiverClan cat to the point of promising him deputyship of WindClan. Yes, everything about Tallstar's change seemed suspicious, it's what I've been saying for years (seriously, there were better alternatives to how Tallstar handled it). And yes, he was manipulated. But just because I understand Mudclaw doesn't mean I have to support him. But my point is that there are people that DON'T excuse his behavior and openly are aware of his actions and still support him as a character regardless of what Onestar did. Onestar didn't need Mudclaw to make himself look bad, he dug his own grave with his own actions, and regardless of what Mudclaw did or not, he already messed up even before becoming deputy. Mudclaw wasn't the one that made him betray his clan, break the code, and abandon his illegitimate children. Nor was Mudclaw responsible for his actions later down the road, like him going against Tallstar's last wishes. Trust me, I'm aware of the whataboutism's in this fandom, it happens quite a lot when it comes to IvyDove and NightCrow debates, and it's always annoying. But from what I've seen, it's always Mudclaw being brought up in a sense with Onestar, not the other way around, and then people that prefer Mudclaw being accused of excusing his actions when we aren't. No one seems to consider the possibility that we don't see fault in his actions and agree to it to a degree, while also acknowledging that he wasn't perfect. Being aware of complexities of a character and not seeing everything in black and white isn't the same as excusing one's actions. I also still heavily disagree with the notion that Mudclaw and Onestar would have been just as bad as one another, because imo that whataboutism reasoning is always brought up for some reason and it's tiring. Mudclaw wouldn't be as nearly as bad as Onestar because he wouldn't HAVE a reason to when he was still deputy. No one is saying people have to support Mudclaw, but for the ones that do, it's annoying to be constantly accused of things that aren't true.
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