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Post by Rainfire on Jun 9, 2021 13:15:00 GMT -5
It seems that Needletail came to truly realize her mistake of siding with The Kin after Darktail killed Rain.
Do you think she would've ever changed her mind about Darktail and The Kin if Darktail had never murdered Rain?
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2021 13:17:35 GMT -5
Honestly, probably not. Or much much later. She’s awful either way, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she continued to treat Violetshine like her property if her boyfriend didn’t die.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jun 9, 2021 14:15:13 GMT -5
No, her boyfriend being killed was a huge blow to her that made her see. Needletail loved rough and violent fighting, exemplified when she watched Darktail and Rain fight, and then Darktail beat Rowanstar up. I don't think she would have been convinced or have changed her mind if Rain hadn't died, since she's a stubborn and a prideful cat. It had to take Rain dying, and then herself becoming captive before she began to truly have a change of heart.
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Aroace
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 9, 2021 14:46:46 GMT -5
If Needletail did realize her mistake even with Rain still being alive then it probably would have been much too late for her to get any sort of redemption.
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Asexual
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 9, 2021 17:15:03 GMT -5
No, because Darktail murdering Rain was exactly what caused Needletail to change her mind about the Kin. If Rain had lived, I think that she would stay loyal to the Kin for a far longer time.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 9, 2021 18:52:32 GMT -5
Nope. She only cared because it suddenly personally hurt her
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Post by Aqua on Jun 9, 2021 22:37:36 GMT -5
Why do people have a problem with Needletail seeing the truth after Rain died? Isn't it better she saw the truth at all? Rereading the series, she really wasn't that bad imo. Needletail was an ungrateful asshole who didn't like the rules at best. I believe she was genuine with her realization, whether it was because "she was hurt by Rain's death" or not. And the truth must have been traumatizing for her. Needletail really liked Rain, and after learning that Darktail killed him and threatened her own friend must have been horrifying.
Needletail messed up and she knows it. And the price she paid was losing her own life. She didn't even get to live a life, really. She had so many bad influences in her life that turned her into the codebreaker she was then before she died. She and the apprentices felt they deserved respect, and no one in ShadowClan listened to them or even the warriors among themselves. I can't entirely blame Needletail for how she feels or turning against her clan when they never appreciated her or Violetshine from the start.
In the end, a realization is still a realization. Whether it's because she was hurt or not, she learned the truth, and paid with her life for it that she can't have back. A brutal punishment for turning on her clan. Karma bit her in the ass hard.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2021 22:55:54 GMT -5
Why do people have a problem with Needletail seeing the truth after Rain died? Isn't it better she saw the truth at all? Rereading the series, she really wasn't that bad imo. Needletail was an ungrateful asshole who didn't like the rules at best. I believe she was genuine with her realization, whether it was because "she was hurt by Rain's death" or not. And the truth must have been traumatizing for her. Needletail really liked Rain, and after learning that Darktail killed him and threatened her own friend must have been horrifying. Needletail messed up and she knows it. And the price she paid was losing her own life. She didn't even get to live a life, really. She had so many bad influences in her life that turned her into the codebreaker she was then before she died. She and the apprentices felt they deserved respect, and no one in ShadowClan listened to them or even the warriors among themselves. I can't entirely blame Needletail for how she feels or turning against her clan when they never appreciated her or Violetshine from the start. In the end, a realization is still a realization. Whether it's because she was hurt or not, she learned the truth, and paid with her life for it that she can't have back. A brutal punishment for turning on her clan. Karma bit her in the ass hard. Yes. Karma did bite her hard for it. As it should have. Nothing will ever excuse her leading cats she witnessed murdering cats of another clan into a clan full of kits, queens and elders. Nothing she does or went through will ever make up for the fact that she is very much so partially responsible for the slaughter of many innocent cats because...what? She wanted violence and thrived off watching cats fight and wanted to make some big statement because her clan rightfully thought a bird ate her alive? She died trying to bandage up the festering wound she willfully opened, and honestly her youth does not work as a reasoning for me. You saw these cats violently attack other cats. You saw how they treated eachother. You still chose to support them and watched happily when cats were attacked and maimed by Darktail. To top it all off, she still pushes all her own blame on everyone except herself. She didn’t change, she didn’t prove anything beyond her trying to half-ass some apology to the cat she very openly and grossly treated like her object. The fact that the only reason she ever had any kind of change of heart whatsoever, and a pretty weak one at that, was because her boyfriend bit off more than he could chew and now she’s not being stupid enough to see “Huh. Maybe the cats I saw brutalizing people aren’t that great after all!!! Woah!” is pretty telling of how she’s only ever cared about herself and her own property. Had she not shoved all the blame onto everyone else in Starclan, maybe I’d give her one shred of respect, but she didn’t, so she’s still as bad as she was before her “redemption”. The fact that she probably would have kept salivating over rabid murders who abuse elders and starve prisoners had Rain not died is just really disgusting in my eyes. Her change of heart was the weakest thing I’ve ever had the displeasure of reading, and the books clearly expect me to gloss over everything she did like XD absolutely not.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 9, 2021 23:00:27 GMT -5
Why do people have a problem with Needletail seeing the truth after Rain died? Isn't it better she saw the truth at all? Rereading the series, she really wasn't that bad imo. Needletail was an ungrateful asshole who didn't like the rules at best. I believe she was genuine with her realization, whether it was because "she was hurt by Rain's death" or not. And the truth must have been traumatizing for her. Needletail really liked Rain, and after learning that Darktail killed him and threatened her own friend must have been horrifying. Needletail messed up and she knows it. And the price she paid was losing her own life. She didn't even get to live a life, really. She had so many bad influences in her life that turned her into the codebreaker she was then before she died. She and the apprentices felt they deserved respect, and no one in ShadowClan listened to them or even the warriors among themselves. I can't entirely blame Needletail for how she feels or turning against her clan when they never appreciated her or Violetshine from the start. In the end, a realization is still a realization. Whether it's because she was hurt or not, she learned the truth, and paid with her life for it that she can't have back. A brutal punishment for turning on her clan. Karma bit her in the ass hard. We have a problem because the realization is only brought on by her own hurt and not the suffering she sees Darktail inflict on others. She's fine with him tormenting others until it effects her. I will entirely blame her for her own actions.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 9, 2021 23:26:00 GMT -5
I feel like she would have changed either way. Also was Needletail even aware of half the things Darktail and his inner kin group were doing? Cause from what I remember, her knowledge only seemed to go as far as surface level of what the other clan cats knew as well. And she already was starting to have her doubts about Darktail because of him blinding Rain, pretty sure from then on her relationship with him wasn't in the best light anymore. Not like Sleekwhisker, who was actively trying to hurt and kill her clanmates with malicious intent.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 9, 2021 23:28:50 GMT -5
I feel like she would have changed either way. Also was Needletail even aware of half the things Darktail and his inner kin group were doing? Cause from what I remember, her knowledge only seemed to go as far as surface level of what the other clan cats knew as well. And she already was starting to have her doubts about Darktail because of him blinding Rain, pretty sure from then on her relationship with him wasn't in the best light anymore. Not like Sleekwhisker, who was actively trying to hurt and kill her clanmates with malicious intent. She wasn't. Needletail spent most of her time training and hunting, spending time with Rain and raising Violetshine. She acted really weird at times and enjoyed seeing the fights but she was never aware of anyone actually murdering one another. It's probably why she was so traumatized by what happened. I think she just saw the Kin as a group who didn't like the rules like she did, hence why she felt she belonged there, but they turned out to be malicious murderers and she never wanted that.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 9, 2021 23:43:29 GMT -5
I feel like she would have changed either way. Also was Needletail even aware of half the things Darktail and his inner kin group were doing? Cause from what I remember, her knowledge only seemed to go as far as surface level of what the other clan cats knew as well. And she already was starting to have her doubts about Darktail because of him blinding Rain, pretty sure from then on her relationship with him wasn't in the best light anymore. Not like Sleekwhisker, who was actively trying to hurt and kill her clanmates with malicious intent. She wasn't. Needletail spent most of her time training and hunting, spending time with Rain and raising Violetshine. She acted really weird at times and enjoyed seeing the fights but she was never aware of anyone actually murdering one another. It's probably why she was so traumatized by what happened. I think she just saw the Kin as a group who didn't like the rules like she did, hence why she felt she belonged there, but they turned out to be malicious murderers and she never wanted that. I figured as much. Because even if she did turn heel on ShadowClan, she still had some morals, which makes her somewhat of a gray area character for me imo. She's obviously into fights and stuff, in a sportsmanlike way, but I don't think she expected it to turn out as horrible as it did later. Like if she truly liked Darktail, she would have simply just stayed at the gorge with them and join them then, but she didn't, and preferred leaving with the others.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2021 23:49:44 GMT -5
I feel like she would have changed either way. Also was Needletail even aware of half the things Darktail and his inner kin group were doing? Cause from what I remember, her knowledge only seemed to go as far as surface level of what the other clan cats knew as well. And she already was starting to have her doubts about Darktail because of him blinding Rain, pretty sure from then on her relationship with him wasn't in the best light anymore. Not like Sleekwhisker, who was actively trying to hurt and kill her clanmates with malicious intent. When she went on the patrol with Alderpaw to find Skyclan, Alderpaw witnessed the murder of Mistfeather, a weakened Skyclan cat that Darktail killed in front of him. He told this to Molewhisker, Cherryfall and Needlepaw when they were quite literally being held hostage by Darktail’s rouges in the gorge. She would have known very well at that point what Darktail and his group were capable of.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 9, 2021 23:51:57 GMT -5
This is also Needletail’s exact words from the books too, making it very clear that she wants violence and conflict between the clans.
“I'm sick of living in a Clan that only cares about peace. The rogues would have made us strong. But, if you don't want them to join us, I'm going to join them!”
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 10, 2021 0:01:35 GMT -5
This is also Needletail’s exact words from the books too, making it very clear that she wants violence and conflict between the clans. “I'm sick of living in a Clan that only cares about peace. The rogues would have made us strong. But, if you don't want them to join us, I'm going to join them!” Well yes, she wanted their clan to be strong again, and peace and passiveness isn't always a good thing. The elders and warriors filled her head with times where ShadowClan used be respected, and feared, and powerful. But now they weren't. Ironically ShadowClan ended up in a situation where peace shouldn't have been an option anymore because cats were suffering at that point. The herb incident. Cats died...and the clan was severely weakened because of it. They did get the herbs they needed eventually, but only because WindClan's higher ups went behind their leader's back. And by then they already lost quite a few to the sickness, while others were horribly weak, like Rowanstar himself. There was a leader that had a similar situation, Morningstar. Who was very passive and always wanted peace, and their incompetency cost them quite a lot. Rowanastar should have put his paw down much sooner...then maybe a lot more things could have been avoided, peace shouldn't come with the price of their own cats suffering after all. In fact....I'm quite sure that Rowanstar could have easily won the respect of his cats back if he wasn't so obsessed with peace and passiveness.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 10, 2021 1:14:58 GMT -5
This is also Needletail’s exact words from the books too, making it very clear that she wants violence and conflict between the clans. “I'm sick of living in a Clan that only cares about peace. The rogues would have made us strong. But, if you don't want them to join us, I'm going to join them!” Well yes, she wanted their clan to be strong again, and peace and passiveness isn't always a good thing. The elders and warriors filled her head with times where ShadowClan used be respected, and feared, and powerful. But now they weren't. Ironically ShadowClan ended up in a situation where peace shouldn't have been an option anymore because cats were suffering at that point. The herb incident. Cats died...and the clan was severely weakened because of it. They did get the herbs they needed eventually, but only because WindClan's higher ups went behind their leader's back. And by then they already lost quite a few to the sickness, while others were horribly weak, like Rowanstar himself. There was a leader that had a similar situation, Morningstar. Who was very passive and always wanted peace, and their incompetency cost them quite a lot. Rowanastar should have put his paw down much sooner...then maybe a lot more things could have been avoided, peace shouldn't come with the price of their own cats suffering after all. In fact....I'm quite sure that Rowanstar could have easily won the respect of his cats back if he wasn't so obsessed with peace and passiveness. Mmm ok. I heavily disagree with this one because even if Shadowclan was to launch some vicious attack and harm Windclan Warriors, they wouldn’t have been able to do it without losing more lives. They were already weakened due to illness long before Puddleshine ever got the dream telling him where the cure was. Shadowclan could not have won against Windclan if they did attack. Rowanstar and Crowfrost were not wrong when they said that holding Twigpaw hostage and starting a War wouldn’t have changed anything. Onestar was adamant that they not get any herbs. It literally wouldn’t have mattered, and then Rowanstar would have just allowed more death and suffering. Even then Rowanstar did have other moments where he wasn’t peaceful and passive, where he was willing to start a fight. The same cats who wanted constant fighting and bloodshed were now suddenly changing their minds and calling him a bad leader for...literally doing what they wanted him to. This isn’t Shadowclan wanting to be respected, it’s literally them openly wanting to bring harm and start pointless battles rather than act like actual Warriors who follow a code. Why should anyone want respect of cats who clearly want violence? I thought Shadowclan was supposed to not fall back to the days of Brokenstar? Why the heck would it be a good idea for them to revert back to horrible and violent cats when Shadowclan spent so much time recovering from mindsets like that? That sounds just really disgusting.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 10, 2021 1:29:49 GMT -5
I’m not saying Rowanstar had to be the pinnacle of peace, because honestly he really wasn’t. He literally just didn’t want to toss his clan into needless Wars that would do nothing but just cause further harm to his clan. I just...really fail to see how that makes him bad or wrong or deserving of such harsh criticism, when collectively every typical good leader thinks this way. Why have wars and battles when you can live in peace and defend the borders normally? Shadowclan literally becomes no better than Darktail’s rouges, and all of their progress washes away to nothing. They didn’t even know what herb could treat the illness until after cats were sick, and by then, Thunderclan did nothing to help either. Onestar said no and they just sat back and said “Welp, that stinks, sorry.” like. Getting that herb through war was not something a severely ill leader could do with his severely ill clan...
Needletail knew very well who she was joining, and found thrill in violent fights. She didn’t want Shadowclan to be respected, she wanted them to be feared and cruel. It’s disappointing because back then I thought she was just misguided, but she was genuinely wanting to cause pain and suffering up until it directly affected her.
It’s real late here so I gotta sleep, but I hope I’m not coming off as rude or anything. I respect your opinions, even if we disagree on this subject alot.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 10, 2021 4:20:47 GMT -5
Well yes, she wanted their clan to be strong again, and peace and passiveness isn't always a good thing. The elders and warriors filled her head with times where ShadowClan used be respected, and feared, and powerful. But now they weren't. Ironically ShadowClan ended up in a situation where peace shouldn't have been an option anymore because cats were suffering at that point. The herb incident. Cats died...and the clan was severely weakened because of it. They did get the herbs they needed eventually, but only because WindClan's higher ups went behind their leader's back. And by then they already lost quite a few to the sickness, while others were horribly weak, like Rowanstar himself. There was a leader that had a similar situation, Morningstar. Who was very passive and always wanted peace, and their incompetency cost them quite a lot. Rowanastar should have put his paw down much sooner...then maybe a lot more things could have been avoided, peace shouldn't come with the price of their own cats suffering after all. In fact....I'm quite sure that Rowanstar could have easily won the respect of his cats back if he wasn't so obsessed with peace and passiveness. Mmm ok. I heavily disagree with this one because even if Shadowclan was to launch some vicious attack and harm Windclan Warriors, they wouldn’t have been able to do it without losing more lives. They were already weakened due to illness long before Puddleshine ever got the dream telling him where the cure was. Shadowclan could not have won against Windclan if they did attack. Rowanstar and Crowfrost were not wrong when they said that holding Twigpaw hostage and starting a War wouldn’t have changed anything. Onestar was adamant that they not get any herbs. It literally wouldn’t have mattered, and then Rowanstar would have just allowed more death and suffering. Even then Rowanstar did have other moments where he wasn’t peaceful and passive, where he was willing to start a fight. The same cats who wanted constant fighting and bloodshed were now suddenly changing their minds and calling him a bad leader for...literally doing what they wanted him to. This isn’t Shadowclan wanting to be respected, it’s literally them openly wanting to bring harm and start pointless battles rather than act like actual Warriors who follow a code. Why should anyone want respect of cats who clearly want violence? I thought Shadowclan was supposed to not fall back to the days of Brokenstar? Why the heck would it be a good idea for them to revert back to horrible and violent cats when Shadowclan spent so much time recovering from mindsets like that? That sounds just really disgusting. So then what else should they have done, if you don't mind me asking? What if they didn't get lucky because of Harespring and Kestrelflight? Should Rowanstar just let his cats die from the sickness eventually as it spread among others? His clanmates didn't have spare lives lying around like him when he got sick. Elders, queens, and kits were all in danger of dying. His inactions would have honestly made him almost just as bad as Onestar who was leaving them to die. It's no wonder none of them wanted to stand with him afterward. Respect isn't worth anything if you're dead. Fighting to survive and at least trying is better than sitting around and waiting for the inevitable, rotting away to sickness. They tried the peaceful approach, several times, and it got them nothing, and if not for Harespring and Kestrelflight literally going against their leader, who knows how many more lives they would have lost. Even then, they still had to ask permission from a bunch of dead cats to do what should have been morally right from the start. Heck, Rowan didn't even have to fight, he could have just stolen the herbs, like Lionblaze did to save his clanmates. Is stealing wrong, yes, but lives are more important. Morningstar's clan was left to suffer because the other leaders refused to help him, leaving him and his clanmates to starve to death. His weakness was causing his cats their lives, until he finally decided to go into battle, to at least try and fight for his clan's survival. They were weakened and already dropping like flies but his actions saved his clan in the end. What did Rowanstar do except beg and give up?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 10, 2021 4:40:38 GMT -5
I’m not saying Rowanstar had to be the pinnacle of peace, because honestly he really wasn’t. He literally just didn’t want to toss his clan into needless Wars that would do nothing but just cause further harm to his clan. I just...really fail to see how that makes him bad or wrong or deserving of such harsh criticism, when collectively every typical good leader thinks this way. Why have wars and battles when you can live in peace and defend the borders normally? Shadowclan literally becomes no better than Darktail’s rouges, and all of their progress washes away to nothing. They didn’t even know what herb could treat the illness until after cats were sick, and by then, Thunderclan did nothing to help either. Onestar said no and they just sat back and said “Welp, that stinks, sorry.” like. Getting that herb through war was not something a severely ill leader could do with his severely ill clan... Needletail knew very well who she was joining, and found thrill in violent fights. She didn’t want Shadowclan to be respected, she wanted them to be feared and cruel. It’s disappointing because back then I thought she was just misguided, but she was genuinely wanting to cause pain and suffering up until it directly affected her. It’s real late here so I gotta sleep, but I hope I’m not coming off as rude or anything. I respect your opinions, even if we disagree on this subject alot. He gets harsh criticism because he's a leader with responsibility, and honestly he if a leader like Morningstar can fight for his clans survival, then Rowanstar has no excuse. It wouldn't have been a needless battle, it would have been a fight for his clan's survival, and better than just sitting down and drying like prey at the hands of the sickness. I'm also not saying TC is any more innocent here either, cause they're not, all the other clans were in the wrong for not helping and trying to do something about Onestar as well. But Rowanstar should also hold responsibility for his inaction too. If he stood up to WindClan and fought for his clan I doubt his clanmates would have sided with Darktail when he showed up, and defeated him. They would have most likely stood by his side and even try and drive Darktail out in his defense. Because he stood up for his clan before against WindClan and tried to secure their survival....but in canon that's not what happened. Rowanstar's passive and peaceful ways almost got them all killed. And if not for them getting lucky with Kestrel and Hare it would have been much worse. If Needletail genuinely wanted to cause pain and suffering she would have been by Sleekwhisker's side this whole time doing just that. Going out of her way to torture her clanmates, help drown them, and have an undying loyalty to Darktail. But that wasn't the case either. Just because a character liked violence and fighting doesn't make them a monster, and considering all the crud the adults in her clan fed into her head, it's no wonder she and many of the other apprentices turned out the way they did. Even going as far as to let them fight viciously with unsheathed claws, and doing nothing about it. Letting them break the code and eat prey before their clan. Letting them sneak out instead of keeping a better eye on them, and so on. Just like a sponge, they absorbed it all up, and it made it all the more easier for Darktail to manipulate them. How do you expect a child to know wrong from right if you don't set the right example for them?
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 10, 2021 6:38:19 GMT -5
I’m not saying Rowanstar had to be the pinnacle of peace, because honestly he really wasn’t. He literally just didn’t want to toss his clan into needless Wars that would do nothing but just cause further harm to his clan. I just...really fail to see how that makes him bad or wrong or deserving of such harsh criticism, when collectively every typical good leader thinks this way. Why have wars and battles when you can live in peace and defend the borders normally? Shadowclan literally becomes no better than Darktail’s rouges, and all of their progress washes away to nothing. They didn’t even know what herb could treat the illness until after cats were sick, and by then, Thunderclan did nothing to help either. Onestar said no and they just sat back and said “Welp, that stinks, sorry.” like. Getting that herb through war was not something a severely ill leader could do with his severely ill clan... Needletail knew very well who she was joining, and found thrill in violent fights. She didn’t want Shadowclan to be respected, she wanted them to be feared and cruel. It’s disappointing because back then I thought she was just misguided, but she was genuinely wanting to cause pain and suffering up until it directly affected her. It’s real late here so I gotta sleep, but I hope I’m not coming off as rude or anything. I respect your opinions, even if we disagree on this subject alot. He gets harsh criticism because he's a leader with responsibility, and honestly he if a leader like Morningstar can fight for his clans survival, then Rowanstar has no excuse. It wouldn't have been a needless battle, it would have been a fight for his clan's survival, and better than just sitting down and drying like prey at the hands of the sickness. I'm also not saying TC is any more innocent here either, cause they're not, all the other clans were in the wrong for not helping and trying to do something about Onestar as well. But Rowanstar should also hold responsibility for his inaction too. If he stood up to WindClan and fought for his clan I doubt his clanmates would have sided with Darktail when he showed up, and defeated him. They would have most likely stood by his side and even try and drive Darktail out in his defense. Because he stood up for his clan before against WindClan and tried to secure their survival....but in canon that's not what happened. Rowanstar's passive and peaceful ways almost got them all killed. And if not for them getting lucky with Kestrel and Hare it would have been much worse. If Needletail genuinely wanted to cause pain and suffering she would have been by Sleekwhisker's side this whole time doing just that. Going out of her way to torture her clanmates, help drown them, and have an undying loyalty to Darktail. But that wasn't the case either. Just because a character liked violence and fighting doesn't make them a monster, and considering all the crud the adults in her clan fed into her head, it's no wonder she and many of the other apprentices turned out the way they did. Even going as far as to let them fight viciously with unsheathed claws, and doing nothing about it. Letting them break the code and eat prey before their clan. Letting them sneak out instead of keeping a better eye on them, and so on. Just like a sponge, they absorbed it all up, and it made it all the more easier for Darktail to manipulate them. How do you expect a child to know wrong from right if you don't set the right example for them? I mean, considering he was too ill to even get up from his nest, yeah no, Rowanstar kind of can’t go charging into Windclan into a hopeless battle and get his clanmates killed and wounded for the clan’s young medicine cat to care for by himself. That would be the stupidest thing I can think of as a leader, whether this battle was some paragon of honor. Like...yes? He quite literally was dying at the hands of sickness. Let’s just magically heal this incurable disease that nobody knew the cure to until he was already to weak to even be able to get up and invade Windclan. Needletail sure didn’t do much when she did witness that suffering until her boyfriend died. She was complicit and didn’t care about anybody but herself until it directly affected her. That’s my issue. I don’t really care if she was as evil or as brutal as Sleekwhisker or not. She knowingly supported cats that she knew good and well were capable of abusing and slaughtering the weak and elderly at that point. That doesn’t get to be excused and tossed under the rug with the “Darktail manipulated them” argument. Nobody here is ever arguing that the adults in the clan aren’t idiots and not responsible for part of the way these apprentices turned out. But when these apprentices were getting punished, like when Needlepaw was forced to care for the elders as punishment, it did nothing anyway. She was still an awful and uncaring cat to her clanmates. She gets punishments in the books like everyone is screaming for Rowanstar to do but it wouldn’t ever matter. The apprentices do need to hold responsibility as well for their own choices and actions. Needletail needs to be held responsible for her own choices and actions instead of being given so many excuses as to why her support of the Kin is suddenly innocent and pure. They’re not kits at all when they make their choices, they’re well into their apprenticeships and should have basic thought process by then. They can’t be excused or given passes when it’s literal and very blatantly violent and brutal cats they’re supporting simply because they’re not full adults yet. And I get disliking Rowanstar, I don’t care if people like him or hate him, but I hate that nothing he ever does will be good enough. If he attacked Windclan, I can guarantee that he would be hated for it for leading his cats to further injuries when they were too ill to fight even before they knew what could cure them. I guarantee you his clanmates would still think he’s weak and awful for letting them get wounded and losing, because they are never satisfied by any solution ever. But now he’s the bad guy for not being able to physically get up and launch a pointless attack? That’s just wild to me. It’s suddenly a horrible thing to be a leader that...wants peace instead of brutal violence and terrorizing other clans? That’s really wild to me.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 10, 2021 6:46:16 GMT -5
Mmm ok. I heavily disagree with this one because even if Shadowclan was to launch some vicious attack and harm Windclan Warriors, they wouldn’t have been able to do it without losing more lives. They were already weakened due to illness long before Puddleshine ever got the dream telling him where the cure was. Shadowclan could not have won against Windclan if they did attack. Rowanstar and Crowfrost were not wrong when they said that holding Twigpaw hostage and starting a War wouldn’t have changed anything. Onestar was adamant that they not get any herbs. It literally wouldn’t have mattered, and then Rowanstar would have just allowed more death and suffering. Even then Rowanstar did have other moments where he wasn’t peaceful and passive, where he was willing to start a fight. The same cats who wanted constant fighting and bloodshed were now suddenly changing their minds and calling him a bad leader for...literally doing what they wanted him to. This isn’t Shadowclan wanting to be respected, it’s literally them openly wanting to bring harm and start pointless battles rather than act like actual Warriors who follow a code. Why should anyone want respect of cats who clearly want violence? I thought Shadowclan was supposed to not fall back to the days of Brokenstar? Why the heck would it be a good idea for them to revert back to horrible and violent cats when Shadowclan spent so much time recovering from mindsets like that? That sounds just really disgusting. So then what else should they have done, if you don't mind me asking? What if they didn't get lucky because of Harespring and Kestrelflight? Should Rowanstar just let his cats die from the sickness eventually as it spread among others? His clanmates didn't have spare lives lying around like him when he got sick. Elders, queens, and kits were all in danger of dying. His inactions would have honestly made him almost just as bad as Onestar who was leaving them to die. It's no wonder none of them wanted to stand with him afterward. Respect isn't worth anything if you're dead. Fighting to survive and at least trying is better than sitting around and waiting for the inevitable, rotting away to sickness. They tried the peaceful approach, several times, and it got them nothing, and if not for Harespring and Kestrelflight literally going against their leader, who knows how many more lives they would have lost. Even then, they still had to ask permission from a bunch of dead cats to do what should have been morally right from the start. Heck, Rowan didn't even have to fight, he could have just stolen the herbs, like Lionblaze did to save his clanmates. Is stealing wrong, yes, but lives are more important. Morningstar's clan was left to suffer because the other leaders refused to help him, leaving him and his clanmates to starve to death. His weakness was causing his cats their lives, until he finally decided to go into battle, to at least try and fight for his clan's survival. They were weakened and already dropping like flies but his actions saved his clan in the end. What did Rowanstar do except beg and give up? Rowanstar was literally incapacitated in his nest for a majority of the illness by the time he would have been able to even consider launching an attack on Windclan or trying to steal the herb. I get what you’re saying but in this specific case, he physically could not get up and do these perfect actions. That, and did Puddleshine even know the exact location in the middle of Windclan territory to be able to steal herbs? The chances if them being caught and maimed for trespassing would have been so high. I wouldn’t have minded Shadowclan stealing them but there was very much so reasons why they couldn’t just do that. That’s my issue. I’m very sure that he would have given the ok to steal the herbs if they were able to properly. Rowanstar wasn’t even that passive of a cat, he was aggressive to other leaders when he needed to be and was more than ready to battle Skyclan when the clan wanted him to be a hostile and fighting leader. Whooo was then told once again that he was trash when his clanmates suddenly changed their mind and gave the “You would have gotten us all injured in a battle!” schtick.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 10, 2021 6:57:00 GMT -5
At this point I already know that nothing I’ll say will change any opinion, and there will be some other reason to blame anyone else but Needletail for her own actions, and I slept horribly, so I’m going to leave it at an agree to disagree for now. Honestly all I really want is Needletail to be held accountable for her part in how everything turned out for once, based on her actions and her actions alone. That’s all I want. But at this point it’s pointless to continue a circling argument so I’ll leave it be.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 10, 2021 8:58:13 GMT -5
I think the worst part is that Needletail only realized once Rain died and not when he got his eye ripped out by Darktail.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 10, 2021 11:42:44 GMT -5
It's fine if you want to agree to disagree. Imo, Needletail's position really isn't any different from Breezepelt to me, the only real difference is that Needletail was younger than Breezepelt when she was being manipulated, and she actually died before being properly redeemed. Still, just because Rowanstar is criticized, doesn't mean that people don't hold criticism towards Needletail, I have plenty of things that I didn't like when it came to how she was handled. But what I'm actually tired of is that Rowanstar is painted like a saint or innocent baby that did nothing wrong and couldn't handle a couple of apprentices...it's almost embarrassing. He's a leader, he should act like one. Not ignore his warriors, treat his youth like idiots, and then act like a hypocrite. And instead of fighting for his clan, he throws it all away and sends them into near extinction. He may be a morally "good" character, but it doesn't mean he's a good leader. There are times when you should be passive and times when you need to take action, and he doesn't know how to do either at the right time. His incompetence has done more than enough damage to ShadowClan at that point, and he honestly should have just handed his leadership over to someone else sooner.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 10, 2021 11:51:32 GMT -5
I’m not disagreeing with you at all on those points. I do think he should have passed leadership on earlier, and he did try to. Of course, Tigerheart’s garbage and left the clan so that idea didn’t work out unfortunately when it needed to most. I don’t think Rowan’s a saint at all, I just don’t think Needletail is one either, and neither should be treated as such, but should be held accountable for their own choices and decisions. I think I just get really bothered with parts of fandom that make her out to be some girlboss. Sleekwhisker gets the same treatment and it’s really gross, especially on the Youtube fandoms.
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