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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 8, 2021 19:49:30 GMT -5
i just thought of this.
ashfur should technically have a grudge against leafpool as well. not as big as squirrelflight and bramblestar, obviously, but still. ashfur was the one to challenge leafpool when she said she had a sign of brambleclaw being the next deputy (whatever it was. i dont remember specifics of the scene).
ashfur would want to kill all 4 of them: leafpool trying to protect jayfeather, lionblaze and hollyleaf in the fire. by killing squirrelflight's "kits" as well as beloved sister, ashfur would get off to the idea of making squirrelflight suffer tenfold.
leafpool would be forced to reveal that not only are the 3 not squirrel x bramble's, but she'd also be revealing she and crowfeather were their real parents.
this way, ashfur would know the FULL truth and hollyleaf killing him would be more justified.
hollyleaf killed ashfur before any of them knew the FULL truth of the secret. she thought him revealing the one fact of them not being squirrel x bramble's kits would be bad enough, but if ashfur knew the full truth, that would be way more disasterous than just the half of it.
this way, less people would question hollyleaf's moral and motives. if leafpool was there and revealed the full truth, ashfur being killed wouldnt be such a controversial topic.
i imagine that squirrelflight and/or brambleclaw would find them and get them out. they would interupt ashfur before he could think about what leafpool just confessed.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 8, 2021 19:51:31 GMT -5
Ashfur would still try to kill Leafpool. Killing Leafpool would hurt Squirrelflight a ridiculous amount, secret or not. Then he'd have a secret to reveal AND killed her loved ones
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Post by Hollyfall on Jun 8, 2021 22:58:47 GMT -5
I actually think he does have some form of a grudge/hate against her, though it's not as apparent as his hatred is for, say, Bramblestar, Lionblaze, or Jayfeather. As you pointed out, he speaks up when Brambleclaw is appointed deputy and accuses her of nepotism because Brambleclaw is Squirrelflight's mate.
Then, years later, in The Silent Thaw, he directly calls Leafpool a liar and calls her a codebreaker just before he assaults and exiles Squirrelflight.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but to me, it's showing that while Ashfur's hatred of Leafpool isn't as showcased as heavily as others like Bramblestar, it's definitely there. That aside, I believe he would 100% try and kill Leafpool. He'd already tried killing their father (the Clan leader), the Clan medicine cat who happens to be Squirrelflight's sister isn't that far-fetched for him to do. I wouldn't be surprised if he had managed to kill the three, he would target Leafpool next. He'd probably try and kill Leafpool regardless of any secret, really.
What you described would have certainly been interesting, with Ashfur gaining the full knowledge of the secret which he can use as leverage and being able to kill Squirrelflight's kits and sister, which would obviously hurt Squirrelflight quite a bit.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 8, 2021 23:38:37 GMT -5
I think in that scenario, Leafpool spilling the secret does absolutely nothing. He would kill her with double the glee and then watch the three burn. Why? Because he has no reason here to doubt that Squirrelflight loves the three any less. The reason that Ashfur thought that she didn't care is because Squirrelflight effectively bluffed him, showing a cold front and saying it herself that she didn't care. However, that's not going to happen here, and as far as he knows all this means is he's getting two for the price of one; he gets to kill Squirrelflight's loved ones and then ruin her reputation afterwards. Leafpool cannot convince Ashfur that Squirrelflight doesn't care; only Squirrelflight can do that.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 8, 2021 23:43:38 GMT -5
Oh my god. Leafpool would be traumatized. I can see the poor baby begging Ashfur to let them go and willing to sacrifice her life for her kits in the fire.. just the thought of this happening to Leafpool is horrifying.. she would be so heartbroken at the thought of admitting the truth and horrified of her kits in danger...
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 9, 2021 0:14:03 GMT -5
I think in that scenario, Leafpool spilling the secret does absolutely nothing. He would kill her with double the glee and then watch the three burn. Why? Because he has no reason here to doubt that Squirrelflight loves the three any less. The reason that Ashfur thought that she didn't care is because Squirrelflight effectively bluffed him, showing a cold front and saying it herself that she didn't care. However, that's not going to happen here, and as far as he knows all this means is he's getting two for the price of one; he gets to kill Squirrelflight's loved ones and then ruin her reputation afterwards. Leafpool cannot convince Ashfur that Squirrelflight doesn't care; only Squirrelflight can do that. the way i was thinking though. if ashfur let them go from the fire scene and waited to reveal the secret at the gathering. what if he keeps this plan secret and makes them believe he'll let them go? i like the idea of ashfur manipulating leafpool instead of killing her. thats why i said i think squirrel and bramble would come rescue them from the fire, interupting their confrontation. plus, if he keeps them alive and manages to reveal the secret, he'll get to watch up close the humiliation that goes down. all the conflict he will cause, etc. watching his targets suffer vs killing them. which would be more satisfying for him?
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 9, 2021 0:25:29 GMT -5
Supposing this alternate scenario goes down like I proposed before, I imagine that with the three dead and Leafpool gone as well, Thunderclan would be utterly devastated. They would have no medicine cat, and would have to make do with Brightheart until they can train a new one. You might see a Starclan driven intervention like with Puddleshine, even. Ashfur would of course take his chance to ruin Squirrelflight's life and would certainly be exiled for it, but Squirrelflight would be destroyed with the three dead and her sister gone too. It MIGHT be better for her relationship with Brambleclaw? The shared grief might make Brambleclaw forget about the lying thing, maybe not. The darker scenario here is that it makes his feeling of betrayal far more painful, and it's an even worse break up.
Moving on into OOTS, Poppyfrost is going to die. Without Jayfeather to save her, Breezepelt murders her at the Moonpool and becomes far worse than in canon, now that he has finally crossed that line of killing someone. Ivypool will not become jealous of Dovewing here, since it's doubtful that without Jayfeather and Lionblaze Dovewing will get special attention. If she does, it'll be at a later date where Ivypool is more mature. Without Jayfeather, Starclan will never unite against the Dark Forest and without Dovewing, they won't know where the attack will come from. Combined with no pre-knowledge thanks to no Ivypool, and the clans may well lose in the sneak attack from the Dark Forest. If the Dark Forest wins, then they spread into the living world and corrupt the land around the lake, poisoning it and absorbing it into their realm, which sounds apocalyptically bad.
In other words, Ashfur will lead to the destruction of the lake and the clans surrounding it.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 9, 2021 0:27:30 GMT -5
vectoring34do u think breezepelt would even care to kill poppyfrost? didnt he only try to because he wanted to pin it on jayfeather? or would brokenstar make breezepelt do it (like draco being forced to kill dumbledore?).
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 9, 2021 0:28:44 GMT -5
I think in that scenario, Leafpool spilling the secret does absolutely nothing. He would kill her with double the glee and then watch the three burn. Why? Because he has no reason here to doubt that Squirrelflight loves the three any less. The reason that Ashfur thought that she didn't care is because Squirrelflight effectively bluffed him, showing a cold front and saying it herself that she didn't care. However, that's not going to happen here, and as far as he knows all this means is he's getting two for the price of one; he gets to kill Squirrelflight's loved ones and then ruin her reputation afterwards. Leafpool cannot convince Ashfur that Squirrelflight doesn't care; only Squirrelflight can do that. the way i was thinking though. if ashfur let them go from the fire scene and waited to reveal the secret at the gathering. what if he keeps this plan secret and makes them believe he'll let them go? i like the idea of ashfur manipulating leafpool instead of killing her. thats why i said i think squirrel and bramble would come rescue them from the fire, interupting their confrontation. plus, if he keeps them alive and manages to reveal the secret, he'll get to watch up close the humiliation that goes down. all the conflict he will cause, etc. watching his targets suffer vs killing them. which would be more satisfying for him? Ashfur can manipulate but he's also all about short term satisfaction over long term. I don't know if he'd be willing to play the long game when he can get his kicks just killing them on the spot. He doesn't care about the humiliation that Leafpool and the three suffer, he cares about what Squirrelflight suffers. Killing the three and Leafpool does far more to that end. But if they are saved from him, then effectively, nothing changes from canon. Ashfur will still blow it at the Gathering. You're right, he could try to manipulate Leafpool, but there really isn't much he can make her do that she will do. It doesn't seem in character for him to hold back, he always goes all in and never has anything in reserve.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 9, 2021 0:32:59 GMT -5
vectoring34 do u think breezepelt would even care to kill poppyfrost? didnt he only try to because he wanted to pin it on jayfeather? or would brokenstar make breezepelt do it (like draco being forced to kill dumbledore?). He may not go for her, it depends on who TC's new medicine cat will be. If they're related to the Leafpool and Crowfeather debacle, surely they will be targeted.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 9, 2021 0:39:18 GMT -5
vectoring34do u think breezepelt would even care to kill poppyfrost? didnt he only try to because he wanted to pin it on jayfeather? or would brokenstar make breezepelt do it (like draco being forced to kill dumbledore?). Breezepelt was willing to do anything to hurt Jayfeather at the time, even if it meant hurting a defenseless queen. Of course he'd kill Poppyfrost. I don't think Brokenstar would even make him do it either - he already stopped caring about StarClan at the time, and I feel like if he actually did succeed to kill Jayfeather, he probably would have gone for Poppyfrost next to keep her silent, which is a scary thought because I can actually see that happening to her.
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Aroace
#ffa100
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 9, 2021 14:12:43 GMT -5
Leafpool and her kits (as well as the Clans later on) would certainly be doomed.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 9, 2021 17:26:06 GMT -5
My heart is hurting for Leafpool just thinking about it. She'd almost certainly die.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on Jun 9, 2021 21:19:51 GMT -5
Well, in the actual fire scene Squirrelflight struggles to push the branch through because of her wound, and so Ashfur comes over and pushes it across before blocking the way, and Squirrelflight can't fight him also because of her wound. Since Leafpool isn't wounded, maybe she could push the branch across and have at least one of them come across before Ashfur gets there. Leafpool would be no match against Ashfur in a fight, but in the scene it says that Hollyleaf is the first to move towards the branch, so maybe if she went across first, then Ashfur blocks the branch, then Hollyleaf attacks him, and maybe she kills him (accidentally or on purpose) and throws him into the fire? So that way Hollyleaf still kills Ashfur. And then in the next book since Hollyleaf is code-obsessed she could freak out about her breaking the code by killing a Clanmate and enter her downwards spiral.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 10, 2021 15:58:54 GMT -5
Well, in the actual fire scene Squirrelflight struggles to push the branch through because of her wound, and so Ashfur comes over and pushes it across before blocking the way, and Squirrelflight can't fight him also because of her wound. Since Leafpool isn't wounded, maybe she could push the branch across and have at least one of them come across before Ashfur gets there. Leafpool would be no match against Ashfur in a fight, but in the scene it says that Hollyleaf is the first to move towards the branch, so maybe if she went across first, then Ashfur blocks the branch, then Hollyleaf attacks him, and maybe she kills him (accidentally or on purpose) and throws him into the fire? So that way Hollyleaf still kills Ashfur. And then in the next book since Hollyleaf is code-obsessed she could freak out about her breaking the code by killing a Clanmate and enter her downwards spiral. ooh! this is a cool idea. if hollyleaf killed ashfur in the fire scene. then leafpool, lion and jay would be witnesses to it and be involved.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 10, 2021 16:42:29 GMT -5
Hollyleaf attacking Ashfur could be interesting, but Ashfur here isn't off-guard like he was when she killed him near the river. With them being so close to the cliff edge, I could see both of them dying if Ashfur drags her down with him.
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