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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 21:08:56 GMT -5
Do the books always make these characters right, even if their actions are wrong to you? I feel like that's how these characters are treated, and it has soured my opinion on both of them because it's annoying to see. It's just a biased opinion, admittedly, against how they're written and not anyone personally. Am I the only one who feels like this?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 6, 2021 21:18:50 GMT -5
As a Squirrelflight fan and someone who's not that fond of Bramblestar anyway I think the books are definitely in her favor, at least to a certain extent. It think the books have been trying to make it seem like both her and Bramblestar are in the wrong whenever they're in conflict with each other, but the execution just feels really weird.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on Jun 6, 2021 21:24:53 GMT -5
It think the books have been trying to make it seem like both her and Bramblestar are in the wrong whenever they're in conflict with each other, but the execution just feels really weird. It's probably because at least in SqH it's from Squirrelflight's POV, so we as readers naturally get her side of the story and as she believes herself to be right the narrative portrays her as right. I agree though - even when it's not from Squirrelflight's POV they try to make it seem like she's right all the time when she's not (she's right some of the time, but not always)
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 21:30:14 GMT -5
As a Squirrelflight fan and someone who's not that fond of Bramblestar anyway I think the books are definitely in her favor, at least to a certain extent. It think the books have been trying to make it seem like both her and Bramblestar are in the wrong whenever they're in conflict with each other, but the execution just feels really weird. I don't disagree with Squirrelflight about everything, even have a somewhat understanding grudge against her for the things she does, but it's very frustrating how the writers (Kate?) makes Bramblestar look bad, like refusing to heal Sunrise as an example to prove Squirrelflight is innocent. I feel like the REAL Bramblestar wouldn't have done this, protecting the clan or not, I feel like he's a cat who always tolerated outsiders? I guess you could say that the situations with The Kin made things worse and the clans distrusting the Sisters, but the way how he treated Sunrise felt out of character, even if his intentions were good, I feel like it was written that way because Kate sees him as evil or something, so he's being cold and refusing to heal a defenseless Sister. Similar cases for Ivypool and Dovewing. I have noticed in Kate's writing that she makes Dovewing act like a .. well, a huge bitch. She completely ruined her, making her look selfish and putting herself and her own kits in danger and talks shit about her Clanmates in SqH. Because of these poor choices, this makes Ivypool seem "right" and look good because Tigerheart and Dovewing were the "stupid" ones, and it's honestly just frustrating and biased writing. I don't like either of these characters because of this, and I really wish they were done better. I guess Ivypool is admittedly done a lot better than Squirrelflight because she's not used 24/7 as the author's favorite, but they're both still used as an extent with the most screentime as background characters who are always right about SOMETHING, even if the way how the situation is handled wrong. Dovewing's actions genuinely feel forced to me, and I feel like the real Dovewing wouldn't have done stupid shit she's been doing recently in the books. Kate's Dovewing honestly sucks. an example of what I'm trying to say is that, I thought it was weird how Dovewing feels like she can't trust the clans to protect her or her kits, but before she leaves she says "my clanmates will be fine without me" like??? you literally just said you don't feel safe yet you admitted they're capable of taking care of themselves, it literally makes no sense and this situation here feels forced like Kate is TRYING to make her look stupid..... It's just strange and because of these situations, they make Ivypool look right all the time, but the writing and Dovewing's actions alone just feels so forced to me and it's just.. so weird. I don't like it at all. the real Dovewing would trust her clans, not run off because of a dream ugh. I hate what Kate does to her tbh
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 6, 2021 21:40:25 GMT -5
They definitely lean towards Squirrel, instead of taking them for the more grey situations they are
But I don't think they do this with Ivy and Dove? It's pretty clear they're both shown to be bratty at times. Ivypool isn't even in spotlight anymore to always seem right. She's just tired of the forbidden relationship drama and wants to separate herself from it. I don't think that's her being right, just her being justifiably done. If my brother kept doing the same thing with one girlfriend, I'd be like 'Don't talk to me about it until you have your shit figured out' too. Especially if it was some forbidden relationship
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 6, 2021 21:40:37 GMT -5
It think the books have been trying to make it seem like both her and Bramblestar are in the wrong whenever they're in conflict with each other, but the execution just feels really weird. It's probably because at least in SqH it's from Squirrelflight's POV, so we as readers naturally get her side of the story and as she believes herself to be right the narrative portrays her as right. I agree though - even when it's not from Squirrelflight's POV they try to make it seem like she's right all the time when she's not (she's right some of the time, but not always) In general, it's absolutely possible for a protagonist to be wrong even in their own PoV as well as for the narrative to condemn them for it. If a reader still thinks that character is right even despite everything, I think that says more about their comprehension skills then anything. When it comes to Squirrelflight specifically however, yeah, I can think of a ton of times when she does something questionable at best and is still treated in the right. Take the Hawkfrost incident for example: Squirrelflight was suspicious of Hawkfrost from the start, partially due to her connection with Leafpool, who already didn't trust him, but she wasn't really communicating with Brambleclaw about it properly. But it's okay, because he turned out to be evil anyway! Seriously though, that entire plotline could've been handled so much better on both sides. Interestingly enough, SqH is the only time I actually sided with her for the most part, but this doesn't mean I'm blinded to the wrong that Squirrelflight did do, such as having Sparkpelt lie for her. That was really unfair to her daughter. And though the book made me really dislike Bramblestar, I also felt like they were overdoing it when it came to how he treated Squirrelflight.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 6, 2021 21:57:42 GMT -5
As a Squirrelflight fan and someone who's not that fond of Bramblestar anyway I think the books are definitely in her favor, at least to a certain extent. It think the books have been trying to make it seem like both her and Bramblestar are in the wrong whenever they're in conflict with each other, but the execution just feels really weird. I don't disagree with Squirrelflight about everything, even have a somewhat understanding grudge against her for the things she does, but it's very frustrating how the writers (Kate?) makes Bramblestar look bad, like refusing to heal Sunrise as an example to prove Squirrelflight is innocent. I feel like the REAL Bramblestar wouldn't have done this, protecting the clan or not, I feel like he's a cat who always tolerated outsiders? I guess you could say that the situations with The Kin made things worse and the clans distrusting the Sisters, but the way how he treated Sunrise felt out of character, even if his intentions were good, I feel like it was written that way because Kate sees him as evil or something, so he's being cold and refusing to heal a defenseless Sister. Similar cases for Ivypool and Dovewing. I have noticed in Kate's writing that she makes Dovewing act like a .. well, a huge bitch. She completely ruined her, making her look selfish and putting herself and her own kits in danger and talks shit about her Clanmates in SqH. Because of these poor choices, this makes Ivypool seem "right" and look good because Tigerheart and Dovewing were the "stupid" ones, and it's honestly just frustrating and biased writing. I don't like either of these characters because of this, and I really wish they were done better. I guess Ivypool is admittedly done a lot better than Squirrelflight because she's not used 24/7 as the author's favorite, but they're both still used as an extent with the most screentime as background characters who are always right about SOMETHING, even if the way how the situation is handled wrong. Dovewing's actions genuinely feel forced to me, and I feel like the real Dovewing wouldn't have done stupid shit she's been doing recently in the books. Kate's Dovewing honestly sucks. an example of what I'm trying to say is that, I thought it was weird how Dovewing feels like she can't trust the clans to protect her or her kits, but before she leaves she says "my clanmates will be fine without me" like??? you literally just said you don't feel safe yet you admitted they're capable of taking care of themselves, it literally makes no sense and this situation here feels forced like Kate is TRYING to make her look stupid..... It's just strange and because of these situations, they make Ivypool look right all the time, but the writing and Dovewing's actions alone just feels so forced to me and it's just.. so weird. I don't like it at all. the real Dovewing would trust her clans, not run off because of a dream ugh. I hate what Kate does to her tbh I can't stand it when writers let their own biases get in the way of a good story or character development, so I feel you. Strangely though, Kate doesn't even like either Bramblestar or Squirrelflight, much less their relationship, but has basically said that even though she felt like Bramblestar was abusive while she was writing SqH, she herself doesn't think he actually is, so it's not like she outright hates him, either. When it comes to Dovewing and Ivypool though, she's openly admitted to preferring the latter.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 6, 2021 23:26:42 GMT -5
huh, i feel like the books make ivypool look worse than dovewing? there was a time when lots of people crapped on ivypool for being against dovewing all the time, and they made dovewing look like an innocent victim who just wants to be happy even if it makes her selfish.
and theres no denying the books favor squirrelflight. it doesnt matter how much they make her suffer, squirrelflight almost always comes out on top in some moral superiority to other characters in the end.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 23:35:23 GMT -5
huh, i feel like the books make ivypool look worse than dovewing? there was a time when lots of people crapped on ivypool for being against dovewing all the time, and they made dovewing look like an innocent victim who just wants to be happy even if it makes her selfish. and theres no denying the books favor squirrelflight. it doesnt matter how much they make her suffer, squirrelflight almost always comes out on top in some moral superiority to other characters in the end. The books act like the clans wouldn't have survived without Ivypool, Dovewing and Tigerheart both make poor choices which makes Ivypool the "smarter" one (granted I'm not saying Dovewing is smart, but ya know, it feels forced that BOTH Tigerheart and Dovewing are stupid about everything??) and this is probably more on the fandoms side, but it's frustrating how people say she's right about telling her to be with Bumblestripe, when Dovewing clearly doesn't have any feelings for him and doesn't owe him anything. Lotta cats in the books themselves try to convince her to be with Bumblestripe and it's obvious she never wanted to either. And the prophecy is what really separated these two in the first place, but because readers see Ivypaw's pov as the lonely underdog, Dovepaw looks bad to a lot of people and "abandoned" her, but in the books there's plenty of evidence that shows Dovepaw did what she could to keep their relationship together, and ended up breaking her word eventually and told Ivypaw the truth in NW. The books and the fans always try to make her look right, it's not as bad as Squirrelflight's situation with literally THE ENTIRE FREAKING CLAN against her, but this happens with Ivypool as well, it's just not as obvious as Squirrelflight's situation and some of her fans are aggressive (not saying all are, but you get what I mean)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 6, 2021 23:36:49 GMT -5
huh, i feel like the books make ivypool look worse than dovewing? there was a time when lots of people crapped on ivypool for being against dovewing all the time, and they made dovewing look like an innocent victim who just wants to be happy even if it makes her selfish. Where and/or when was this, because ever since I joined this fandom, Ivypool has always been more popular than Dovewing from what I've seen.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 23:39:10 GMT -5
it also felt forced to me how no one noticed ivypaw and nobody was there for her except the bad guys, and it's weird to me how the writers didn't try to have ivypaw reach the others out about her problems..? not just dovepaw, but she could have talked to cinderheart or many other cats, because lionblaze noticed, cinderheart noticed, but nobody actually talked to dovepaw or ivypaw, they just said useless stuff like "don't fight" instead of teaching them to talk and be there for one another, so this makes ivypaw look abandoned by dovepaw, and to the readers dovepaw is an awful sister because she abandoned her, and caused so many problems between them. really wish the Erins would make the characters mature and talk for once tbh
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 7, 2021 0:06:43 GMT -5
huh, i feel like the books make ivypool look worse than dovewing? there was a time when lots of people crapped on ivypool for being against dovewing all the time, and they made dovewing look like an innocent victim who just wants to be happy even if it makes her selfish. Where and/or when was this, because ever since I joined this fandom, Ivypool has always been more popular than Dovewing from what I've seen. Ivypool used to get a lot of hate back in the earlier days, between 2009-2010ish because of her and Dovepaw's squabbling. While Dovewing was more favored, and her bratty behavior would go unnoticed, I believe this was also back when DoveTiger was much more popular and coming off the coat tails of CrowLeaf in the forbidden relationship scene. IvyPAW got a lot of hate for getting in between DoveTiger, but DovePAW got hate over just being Hollyleaf's replacement. However, over the years, the view in the fandom has definitely shifted. When IvyPOOL started become much more plot heavy relevant, because of her Dark Forest involvement. But DoveWING's POV still centered a lot around romance unfortunately, and her "will they or won't they" chapters with both Bumblestripe and Tigerheart. Dovewing's popularity declined with the half that wanted her to be with Tigerheart in the end, and even more so because of Hollyleaf's death, etc. But then she also lost popularity favor with BumbleDove fans after BrS too. And all the while, Ivypool was just pretty much being her own character throughout half of OotS, and throughout the aftermath of the final battle. She doesn't get involved with Dovewing's bs again until later down the line in AVoS (And this is after DotC mind you) when Dove is back at it again with Tigerheart, over a ship that should have died back in 2012. Needless to say...people were just as tired of it as Ivypool was.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 9, 2021 10:51:01 GMT -5
With Squirrelflight, I actually agree that the books often make her out to be constantly in the right even when she does something wrong or at least questionable but Ivypool is never depicted as such and she was simply just as tired of her sister's love drama like a lot of people in the fandom still are to this very day (including me).
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