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Post by cygna on Jun 6, 2021 0:04:02 GMT -5
Why does everyone think she was garbage to Dovewing. She absolutely was not. She absolutely has zero obligation to forgive Dovewing for very much betraying her, their parents, and the clan who raised them. Even after Dovewing left she doesn’t bad mouth her or anything she just ignores her because she’s hurt by Dovewing’s choice.
Even when they were apprentices Ivypaw saves Dovepaw when she catches her and Tigerfart. She tells no one about it even when ShadowClan catches her on their territory instead of ratting out her scummy traitorous sister. People are also getting mad at her for getting involved in the DoveTiger stuff wtf. If you’re family member is making poor choices and even putting themselves in danger should you just let them... Ivypool got involved because she cared about Dovewing, If anything she should have told someone like Firestar or Whitewing.
I’m no Ivypool stan btw. She has many aspects that rubb off wrong, but she was not a bad sister.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 6, 2021 0:22:11 GMT -5
Since I ignore apprentice days (pretty much teens), I agree
I think Dovewing and Tigerheart were pretty unfair trying to pull her into their bs
Readers were tired of it. Imagine how Ivypool, who is also constantly experiencing it, feels
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 0:34:55 GMT -5
Nobody is calling Ivypool a "bad sister". A lot of people just believe that she was too tough on Dovewing. She never listens to her, constantly insults her and screams at her in her face. She tells her to be with cats Dovewing doesn't even like, she's rude to Dove and Tiger, literally slashing Tiger's face and says he's a horrible mate (even if I agree with her, she was still wrong for how she acted)
I'm honestly mostly pissed more at the writers more than Ivypool for not having either sister communicate properly though, because it's been proven multiple times as paws that they're mature enough to talk, but nobody tried, and it ended up separating them.
I also want to add onto the fact that Kate clearly writes the characters based on her PoV, and I really believe this is how Dovewing was ruined. Cherith's Dovewing is actually well written, whereas Kate's Dovewing is a bitch and leaves with unborn kits and talks crap about her Clanmates. Dovewing is a victim of bad writing because both writers couldn't make her consistent. I preferred Cherith's Dovewing so much more because it felt like she tried to make her more of a character, but Kate liked TigerxDove, even giving them a super edition which completely destroyed Dovewing's character permanently.
Anyway, Ivypool is pretty mean to her. This is why people probably call her a "bad sister". I personally don't believe Ivypool is a bad sister, but she was definitely too tough on her and never tried to hear Dovewing out when she needed someone to talk to, and I felt that was unfair.
Dovewing making poor choices doesn't make Ivypool right. And the fandom she has is just annoying in general. People make such a big deal about her and excuse her for everything she does. It's frustrating. I'm too tired to write more, but I'm sure other people who don't like Ivypool will probably speak for themselves. I'm also not going to debate about this.
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Post by Rainsplash on Jun 6, 2021 0:48:58 GMT -5
Ivypool never tries to listen to Dovewing. She always acts first, and her lack of attempts to communicate rubs me the wrong way. She's too harsh on Dovewing, like Doveheart said.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 0:58:28 GMT -5
Ivypool never tries to listen to Dovewing. She always acts first, and her lack of attempts to communicate rubs me the wrong way. She's too harsh on Dovewing, like Doveheart said. Yeah, Ivypool avoided her all the time, even in AVoS she refused to talk to her and hear her out. She really isn't all that mature in my own personal opinion, even if I do understand her and her worries about her sister. There are so many better ways to deal with this situation other than cutting off your sis. However, I blame most of this on Tigerheart; he really should have been honest and put Dovewing's safety first before his "loyalty" to her.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 6, 2021 1:32:35 GMT -5
Nobody is calling Ivypool a "bad sister". A lot of people just believe that she was too tough on Dovewing. She never listens to her, constantly insults her and screams at her in her face. She tells her to be with cats Dovewing doesn't even like, she's rude to Dove and Tiger, literally slashing Tiger's face and says he's a horrible mate (even if I agree with her, she was still wrong for how she acted) I'm honestly mostly pissed more at the writers more than Ivypool for not having either sister communicate properly though, because it's been proven multiple times as paws that they're mature enough to talk, but nobody tried, and it ended up separating them. I also want to add onto the fact that Kate clearly writes the characters based on her PoV, and I really believe this is how Dovewing was ruined. Cherith's Dovewing is actually well written, whereas Kate's Dovewing is a bitch and leaves with unborn kits and talks crap about her Clanmates. Dovewing is a victim of bad writing because both writers couldn't make her consistent. I preferred Cherith's Dovewing so much more because it felt like she tried to make her more of a character, but Kate liked TigerxDove, even giving them a super edition which completely destroyed Dovewing's character permanently. Anyway, Ivypool is pretty mean to her. This is why people probably call her a "bad sister". I personally don't believe Ivypool is a bad sister, but she was definitely too tough on her and never tried to hear Dovewing out when she needed someone to talk to, and I felt that was unfair. Dovewing making poor choices doesn't make Ivypool right. And the fandom she has is just annoying in general. People make such a big deal about her and excuse her for everything she does. It's frustrating. I'm too tired to write more, but I'm sure other people who don't like Ivypool will probably speak for themselves. Not to be rude but I thought we already established that the only time when they yelled at one another was when they were bratty apprentices. Which I think we can all agree that they're both idiotic when it comes to those days. However, even in that sense, Cygna still has a point. IvyPAW could have just told on Dovepaw any time she wanted to, but didn't, even when Dovepaw snuck back into camp and pretended nothing happened and her sister took all the blunt of punishment. Even worse, she was traded for herbs that Dovepaw blabbed about to her illegal boyfriend....which just makes the situation more ironic. Dovepaw, in that situation, took zero responsibility for her actions while Ivypaw took her punishment for her, she could have easily thrown Dovepaw under the bus but she didn't, especially after Dovepaw threatened to even out her before. When it comes to the situation with Bumblestripe, she never told her to do anything about getting back with him. She simply implied that if she's so desperate for kits and a mate that she could find happiness in her own clan. Ivypool didn't care how Dovewing made her choice as long as it wasn't her breaking the code and causing an entire mess, which happened anyways. Not to mention, Bumblestripe was still obviously padding after her because Dovewing never properly told him why they broke up, and why they couldn't get back together, she just dropped him like a hot potato. If anyone needs to work on their communication better, it's Dovewing, especially when she only volunteers to go after Twigpaw just to get away from Bumblestripe and avoid talking to him. She intentionally avoids having conversations with Bumblestripe because she's too cowardly to communicate with him, yet has no problem walking up to her sister and talking to her just moments before?? I also don't see anything wrong with slashing a trespassing cat. This was the second time he trespassed into ThunderClan territory at this point, yes? And you agree he's a horrible mate? If anything, he deserved more than just the equivalent of a slap to the face. He deserved to get his behind beaten and chased out of ThunderClan territory. For not only abandoning her sister after she warned him to stay away from her last time, but also breaking the code and trespassing into ThunderClan territory as he pleased when she and her party just got done searching for her lost sister in a storm mind you. He not only lied to her face about Dovewing's whereabouts, but also didn't even tell her that her sister was pregnant, he abandoned Dovewing when she needed him the most, Ivypool not only had every right to be angry at him but she also legally had the right to whoop his fur off her territory. He got off easy imo. But I guess that's because Ivypool had better things to do than waste her time her on her sister's bum of a husband. Honestly, I personally think Ivypool wasn't tough enough, on either of them. If I were in Ivypool's position I would have already ratted them both out to a leader the moment they ignored my warnings, like DoveTiger did several times. I'm pretty tolerant, but not as tolerant as Ivypool has been the last 3+ years in the series, lol.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 6, 2021 7:33:39 GMT -5
Ahhh my favorite conversation, how Ivypool is the big bad meanie for not coddling Dovewing’s decisions and listening like a saint to her sister’s every action, all the while Dovewing is so incompetent at communication that the tom she strung along probably still to this very day never got told exactly why he was never good enough and why he got dropped like the New Year’s ball at midnight. Of course now he must realize that Dovewing did actually want kits and a mate, just not with him at all because he’d never amount to the cat she actually wanted and thought about and harshly compared him to in her mind. Ivypool’s actually pretty darn clear with her communication when she says over and over again that Dovewing should probably find her perfect ideals in Thunderclan without breaking the code, because she’s not going to tolerate her being disloyal. She’s not going to give Dovewing sympathy for a choice she’s making on her own as an adult. It baffles me that people do genuinely think that Ivypool is obligated to console Dovewing at every corner.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 21:02:53 GMT -5
Nobody is calling Ivypool a "bad sister". A lot of people just believe that she was too tough on Dovewing. She never listens to her, constantly insults her and screams at her in her face. She tells her to be with cats Dovewing doesn't even like, she's rude to Dove and Tiger, literally slashing Tiger's face and says he's a horrible mate (even if I agree with her, she was still wrong for how she acted) I'm honestly mostly pissed more at the writers more than Ivypool for not having either sister communicate properly though, because it's been proven multiple times as paws that they're mature enough to talk, but nobody tried, and it ended up separating them. I also want to add onto the fact that Kate clearly writes the characters based on her PoV, and I really believe this is how Dovewing was ruined. Cherith's Dovewing is actually well written, whereas Kate's Dovewing is a bitch and leaves with unborn kits and talks crap about her Clanmates. Dovewing is a victim of bad writing because both writers couldn't make her consistent. I preferred Cherith's Dovewing so much more because it felt like she tried to make her more of a character, but Kate liked TigerxDove, even giving them a super edition which completely destroyed Dovewing's character permanently. Anyway, Ivypool is pretty mean to her. This is why people probably call her a "bad sister". I personally don't believe Ivypool is a bad sister, but she was definitely too tough on her and never tried to hear Dovewing out when she needed someone to talk to, and I felt that was unfair. Dovewing making poor choices doesn't make Ivypool right. And the fandom she has is just annoying in general. People make such a big deal about her and excuse her for everything she does. It's frustrating. I'm too tired to write more, but I'm sure other people who don't like Ivypool will probably speak for themselves. Not to be rude but I thought we already established that the only time when they yelled at one another was when they were bratty apprentices. Which I think we can all agree that they're both idiotic when it comes to those days. However, even in that sense, Cygna still has a point. IvyPAW could have just told on Dovepaw any time she wanted to, but didn't, even when Dovepaw snuck back into camp and pretended nothing happened and her sister took all the blunt of punishment. Even worse, she was traded for herbs that Dovepaw blabbed about to her illegal boyfriend....which just makes the situation more ironic. Dovepaw, in that situation, took zero responsibility for her actions while Ivypaw took her punishment for her, she could have easily thrown Dovepaw under the bus but she didn't, especially after Dovepaw threatened to even out her before. When it comes to the situation with Bumblestripe, she never told her to do anything about getting back with him. She simply implied that if she's so desperate for kits and a mate that she could find happiness in her own clan. Ivypool didn't care how Dovewing made her choice as long as it wasn't her breaking the code and causing an entire mess, which happened anyways. Not to mention, Bumblestripe was still obviously padding after her because Dovewing never properly told him why they broke up, and why they couldn't get back together, she just dropped him like a hot potato. If anyone needs to work on their communication better, it's Dovewing, especially when she only volunteers to go after Twigpaw just to get away from Bumblestripe and avoid talking to him. She intentionally avoids having conversations with Bumblestripe because she's too cowardly to communicate with him, yet has no problem walking up to her sister and talking to her just moments before?? I also don't see anything wrong with slashing a trespassing cat. This was the second time he trespassed into ThunderClan territory at this point, yes? And you agree he's a horrible mate? If anything, he deserved more than just the equivalent of a slap to the face. He deserved to get his behind beaten and chased out of ThunderClan territory. For not only abandoning her sister after she warned him to stay away from her last time, but also breaking the code and trespassing into ThunderClan territory as he pleased when she and her party just got done searching for her lost sister in a storm mind you. He not only lied to her face about Dovewing's whereabouts, but also didn't even tell her that her sister was pregnant, he abandoned Dovewing when she needed him the most, Ivypool not only had every right to be angry at him but she also legally had the right to whoop his fur off her territory. He got off easy imo. But I guess that's because Ivypool had better things to do than waste her time her on her sister's bum of a husband. Honestly, I personally think Ivypool wasn't tough enough, on either of them. If I were in Ivypool's position I would have already ratted them both out to a leader the moment they ignored my warnings, like DoveTiger did several times. I'm pretty tolerant, but not as tolerant as Ivypool has been the last 3+ years in the series, lol. I vaguely remember this, I probably forgot tbh. Dovepaw wouldn't stop seeing Tigerheart even if Ivypaw did tell the truth. She really didn't do her any favors by keeping the secret. It would have made it a lot harder for her to see Tigerheart with the clan watching her, yes -- but Dovepaw was already too attached to Tigerheart at the time before the catmint thing happened. Telling the truth wasn't going to affect anything between them, and likely strain the relationship even more between both of them. You're not being fair to Dovepaw. She couldn't have done anything. She was a young paw at the time who couldn't take on an entire patrol against several fierce, ShadowClan cats. I still don't understand this argument of people blaming her for this, and it's one of the few times I feel like people are biased here and blame Dovepaw for this because it's Dovepaw's fault Ivypaw was captured when Ivypaw was the one who chose to see them together herself, choosing to walk over there with no one else forcing her to go, and it was Tigerheart who allowed her to get kidnapped. This wasn't Dovepaw's fault alone, but all three were at fault. Dovepaw shouldn't have seen Tigerheart in the first place, Tigerheart allowed his clan to kidnap Ivypaw, while Ivypaw wanted to see them together out of spite. It was a really bad situation that NONE of them should have been in, not JUST Dovepaw. I can't exactly defend Tigerheart since I pretty much agree that he should have been honest about Dovewing's departure from the beginning to Ivypool as she had every right to know about it, and I'm not saying he isn't a good mate, but I'm more annoyed that this situation just gives Ivypool an excuse to be right again and people continue to praise her for this shit, but that's just my own biased personal opinion on Ivypool and how the fandom treats her for always being right. That's why I point it out cause it annoys me that the book gives Ivypool an excuse to always be right about everything. It's just like the Squirrelflight situations.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 6, 2021 21:37:30 GMT -5
Not to be rude but I thought we already established that the only time when they yelled at one another was when they were bratty apprentices. Which I think we can all agree that they're both idiotic when it comes to those days. However, even in that sense, Cygna still has a point. IvyPAW could have just told on Dovepaw any time she wanted to, but didn't, even when Dovepaw snuck back into camp and pretended nothing happened and her sister took all the blunt of punishment. Even worse, she was traded for herbs that Dovepaw blabbed about to her illegal boyfriend....which just makes the situation more ironic. Dovepaw, in that situation, took zero responsibility for her actions while Ivypaw took her punishment for her, she could have easily thrown Dovepaw under the bus but she didn't, especially after Dovepaw threatened to even out her before. When it comes to the situation with Bumblestripe, she never told her to do anything about getting back with him. She simply implied that if she's so desperate for kits and a mate that she could find happiness in her own clan. Ivypool didn't care how Dovewing made her choice as long as it wasn't her breaking the code and causing an entire mess, which happened anyways. Not to mention, Bumblestripe was still obviously padding after her because Dovewing never properly told him why they broke up, and why they couldn't get back together, she just dropped him like a hot potato. If anyone needs to work on their communication better, it's Dovewing, especially when she only volunteers to go after Twigpaw just to get away from Bumblestripe and avoid talking to him. She intentionally avoids having conversations with Bumblestripe because she's too cowardly to communicate with him, yet has no problem walking up to her sister and talking to her just moments before?? I also don't see anything wrong with slashing a trespassing cat. This was the second time he trespassed into ThunderClan territory at this point, yes? And you agree he's a horrible mate? If anything, he deserved more than just the equivalent of a slap to the face. He deserved to get his behind beaten and chased out of ThunderClan territory. For not only abandoning her sister after she warned him to stay away from her last time, but also breaking the code and trespassing into ThunderClan territory as he pleased when she and her party just got done searching for her lost sister in a storm mind you. He not only lied to her face about Dovewing's whereabouts, but also didn't even tell her that her sister was pregnant, he abandoned Dovewing when she needed him the most, Ivypool not only had every right to be angry at him but she also legally had the right to whoop his fur off her territory. He got off easy imo. But I guess that's because Ivypool had better things to do than waste her time her on her sister's bum of a husband. Honestly, I personally think Ivypool wasn't tough enough, on either of them. If I were in Ivypool's position I would have already ratted them both out to a leader the moment they ignored my warnings, like DoveTiger did several times. I'm pretty tolerant, but not as tolerant as Ivypool has been the last 3+ years in the series, lol. I vaguely remember this, I probably forgot tbh. Dovepaw wouldn't stop seeing Tigerheart even if Ivypaw did tell the truth. She really didn't do her any favors by keeping the secret. It would have made it a lot harder for her to see Tigerheart with the clan watching her, yes -- but Dovepaw was already too attached to Tigerheart at the time before the catmint thing happened. Telling the truth wasn't going to affect anything between them, and likely strain the relationship even more between both of them. You're not being fair to Dovepaw. She couldn't have done anything. She was a young paw at the time who couldn't take on an entire patrol against several fierce, ShadowClan cats. I still don't understand this argument of people blaming her for this, and it's one of the few times I feel like people are biased here and blame Dovepaw for this because it's Dovepaw's fault Ivypaw was captured when Ivypaw was the one who chose to see them together herself, choosing to walk over there with no one else forcing her to go, and it was Tigerheart who allowed her to get kidnapped. This wasn't Dovepaw's fault alone, but all three were at fault. Dovepaw shouldn't have seen Tigerheart in the first place, Tigerheart allowed his clan to kidnap Ivypaw, while Ivypaw wanted to see them together out of spite. It was a really bad situation that NONE of them should have been in, not JUST Dovepaw. I can't exactly defend Tigerheart since I pretty much agree that he should have been honest about Dovewing's departure from the beginning to Ivypool as she had every right to know about it, and I'm not saying he isn't a good mate, but I'm more annoyed that this situation just gives Ivypool an excuse to be right again and people continue to praise her for this shit, but that's just my own biased personal opinion on Ivypool and how the fandom treats her for always being right. That's why I point it out cause it annoys me that the book gives Ivypool an excuse to always be right about everything. It's just like the Squirrelflight situations. I'm not even a big Ivypool fan and am happy to see her fade into obscurity. But I feel you're being too harsh on Ivypool because of the fandom. The catmint thing wasn't really her fault. Most of that blame falls on Tigerheart and Dovewing. The whole Tigerheart Shadow's thing? Falls on Tigerheart and Dovewing. Ivypool was wrong in her jealousy and maybe how she handled some things, but most of that was when she was a teenager. She shouldn't have pushed Bumblestripe on Dovewing either, but I feel her reasoning for that was she was hoping it would pull Dovewing away from Tigerheart (obviously that's not how it works, but it is what it is). People take issue with Dovewing because it continues into adulthood and became the spotlight. I think it's fine to love Dovewing (I don't like her, but I can acknowledge she's not an ill-meaning cat. But I'm kind of tired of both sisters), but I think it's also important to point out that she got herself into her situations by herself most of the time and that by the time Tigerheart's Shadow comes around - Ivypool is completely in her right to remove herself from their drama. What is there to really listen about? It's something she's heard for years by that point. It's a cycle. Ivypool is starting her own family.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 6, 2021 21:43:26 GMT -5
I vaguely remember this, I probably forgot tbh. Dovepaw wouldn't stop seeing Tigerheart even if Ivypaw did tell the truth. She really didn't do her any favors by keeping the secret. It would have made it a lot harder for her to see Tigerheart with the clan watching her, yes -- but Dovepaw was already too attached to Tigerheart at the time before the catmint thing happened. Telling the truth wasn't going to affect anything between them, and likely strain the relationship even more between both of them. You're not being fair to Dovepaw. She couldn't have done anything. She was a young paw at the time who couldn't take on an entire patrol against several fierce, ShadowClan cats. I still don't understand this argument of people blaming her for this, and it's one of the few times I feel like people are biased here and blame Dovepaw for this because it's Dovepaw's fault Ivypaw was captured when Ivypaw was the one who chose to see them together herself, choosing to walk over there with no one else forcing her to go, and it was Tigerheart who allowed her to get kidnapped. This wasn't Dovepaw's fault alone, but all three were at fault. Dovepaw shouldn't have seen Tigerheart in the first place, Tigerheart allowed his clan to kidnap Ivypaw, while Ivypaw wanted to see them together out of spite. It was a really bad situation that NONE of them should have been in, not JUST Dovepaw. I can't exactly defend Tigerheart since I pretty much agree that he should have been honest about Dovewing's departure from the beginning to Ivypool as she had every right to know about it, and I'm not saying he isn't a good mate, but I'm more annoyed that this situation just gives Ivypool an excuse to be right again and people continue to praise her for this shit, but that's just my own biased personal opinion on Ivypool and how the fandom treats her for always being right. That's why I point it out cause it annoys me that the book gives Ivypool an excuse to always be right about everything. It's just like the Squirrelflight situations. I'm not even a big Ivypool fan and am happy to see her fade into obscurity. But I feel you're being too harsh on Ivypool because of the fandom. The catmint thing wasn't really her fault. Most of that blame falls on Tigerheart and Dovewing. The whole Tigerheart Shadow's thing? Falls on Tigerheart and Dovewing. Ivypool was wrong in her jealousy and maybe how she handled some things, but most of that was when she was a teenager. She shouldn't have pushed Bumblestripe on Dovewing either, but I feel her reasoning for that was she was hoping it would pull Dovewing away from Tigerheart (obviously that's not how it works, but it is what it is). People take issue with Dovewing because it continues into adulthood and became the spotlight. I think it's fine to love Dovewing (I don't like her, but I can acknowledge she's not an ill-meaning cat. But I'm kind of tired of both sisters), but I think it's also important to point out that she got herself into her situations by herself most of the time and that by the time Tigerheart's Shadow comes around - Ivypool is completely in her right to remove herself from their drama. What is there to really listen about? It's something she's heard for years by that point. It's a cycle. Ivypool is starting her own family. I probably am being too harsh on Ivypool, but the fandom has permanently soured my opinion on her. I do, however, respect her (definitely more than Squirrelflight) to an extent and understand her. Her relationships that don't involve Dovewing all the time are enjoyable to read about. I actually do like IvyxFern, even shipping HollyxIvy because I liked them a lot when Hollyleaf was still alive. It's just frustrating to me how the books act like she's always right about everything. I used to love Ivypool but now that I'm older.. I guess I understand she's not all that great? She's frustrating to read about, and she didn't really do her job, but... I don't feel like repeating myself multiple times about this lol. I acknowledge all of Dovewing's flaws too and I never excuse her. I'm just more understanding with her because I relate to her, and I'm pissed the writers completely ruined her for Tigerheart's sake. :/ it's poor writing. She was going in the right direction before the whole TS garbage existed that nobody even wanted in the first place.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Jun 6, 2021 22:04:22 GMT -5
Ahhh my favorite conversation, how Ivypool is the big bad meanie for not coddling Dovewing’s decisions and listening like a saint to her sister’s every action, all the while Dovewing is so incompetent at communication that the tom she strung along probably still to this very day never got told exactly why he was never good enough and why he got dropped like the New Year’s ball at midnight. Of course now he must realize that Dovewing did actually want kits and a mate, just not with him at all because he’d never amount to the cat she actually wanted and thought about and harshly compared him to in her mind. Ivypool’s actually pretty darn clear with her communication when she says over and over again that Dovewing should probably find her perfect ideals in Thunderclan without breaking the code, because she’s not going to tolerate her being disloyal. She’s not going to give Dovewing sympathy for a choice she’s making on her own as an adult. It baffles me that people do genuinely think that Ivypool is obligated to console Dovewing at every corner. I agree 100% but I’d like to also add that the situation with ivypool discovering that dovewing was sneaking out to meet tigerheart is basically the warriors equivalent of finding out as a teenager that your twin sister is dating a Hells Angels member; it’s not something you’re going to react to with grace and decorum. obv she was still immature in how she handled it bc bad writing + the fact that they were both kids, but it baffles me that people think she should’ve just sat back and said nothing while this was happening
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 6, 2021 22:44:27 GMT -5
Card against Humanityi agree. i've always sided with ivypool when it comes to dove x tiger (in oots and part of avos, and tigerheart's shadow). i've also always compared it to...imagine if u found out ur sibling was dating someone from an enemy nation or a terrorist group. u would be pissed and betrayed too. ur sibling is breaking the law to meet with an enemy in the name of "teenage love."
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 6, 2021 22:48:02 GMT -5
Card against Humanity i agree. i've always sided with ivypool when it comes to dove x tiger (in oots and part of avos, and tigerheart's shadow). i've also always compared it to...imagine if u found out ur sibling was dating someone from an enemy nation or a terrorist group. u would be pissed and betrayed too. ur sibling is breaking the law to meet with an enemy in the name of "teenage love." And then imagine she gets pregnant by said person after saying she's done with him so you think the drama is all over, runs away without letting anyone know, and then comes back, tells you they're joining the enemy nation, and expects you to be A-Okay with it That would be MADDENING
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 6, 2021 22:55:24 GMT -5
I think what Aqua is trying to say is that she doesn't like the reason behind some of Ivypool's actions, not necessarily the action itself. When it comes to following Dovepaw for example, it can be interpreted as being done out of spite, not because she's actually trying to look out for her, at least not completely. The fact that all Ivypaw cared about was trying to be better than her sister, who was constantly trying to keep their relationship intact, doesn't help.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 6, 2021 23:15:46 GMT -5
*Ottersplash*"im leaving behind my entire family to join my terrorist love in the enemy nation. bye!" lol
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 6, 2021 23:19:08 GMT -5
I think what Aqua is trying to say is that she doesn't like the reason behind some of Ivypool's actions, not necessarily the action itself. When it comes to following Dovepaw for example, it can be interpreted as being done out of spite, not because she's actually trying to look out for her, at least not completely. The fact that all Ivypaw cared about was trying to be better than her sister, who was constantly trying to keep their relationship intact, doesn't help. The problem is that most of us try not to hold either sister accountable for their apprentice years, because they're essentially teens and teens do dumb stuff When you look at their adult years, it becomes clear that Ivypool does do things for more caring reasons, and then eventually just gets fed up with it
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 6, 2021 23:34:57 GMT -5
I think what Aqua is trying to say is that she doesn't like the reason behind some of Ivypool's actions, not necessarily the action itself. When it comes to following Dovepaw for example, it can be interpreted as being done out of spite, not because she's actually trying to look out for her, at least not completely. The fact that all Ivypaw cared about was trying to be better than her sister, who was constantly trying to keep their relationship intact, doesn't help. But here's the thing. Context is important. IvyPAW was a brat, no one is ignoring that, but so was DovePAW. They were both wrong for their behavior and what they did, however between the two of them Dovepaw's actions were worse. Dovepaw has been badgering her sister this entire time about how dangerous the DF was and how unloyal Ivypaw was being supposedly, yet at the same time she was very much sneaking out to see Tigerheart. Ivypaw, of course, takes this as Dovepaw actually being the unloyal one, and she's not wrong, Dovepaw was being unloyal. Ivypaw was at least being manipulated. What was Dovepaw's excuse? And then even when they were BOTH being nasty to one another in the argument they were both being dumb teens, it was Ivypaw trying to force Dovepaw to hear the truth, Dovepaw making dumb accusations that Ivypaw wants to steal Tigerheart from her. Then her threatening to expose Ivypaw for being in the Dark Forest before running off. Ivypaw, then catches them both red handed to prove her point, confirming her suspicions, since prior to this she's never actually has seen them together. However this is where the problem splits. Because now this is where Dovepaw's behavior becomes the only real issue. Not only does Ivypaw take the blunt of the punishment, but she takes it for BOTH her and Dovepaw. Dovepaw knowingly got away scott free despite breaking the code and trespassing. She snuck back into camp and pretended nothing happened, while Ivypaw got in trouble instead, and on top of that her own sister is used in exchange for herbs Dovepaw blabbed about. Dovepaw got ZERO punishment for what happened that night, while Ivypaw got all of it. Ivypaw also could have just ratted out Dovepaw as well, she could have done that at any time, to both lessen her punishment but also actually be spiteful toward her sister. But she didn't. Yes she can be a brat, but she wasn't some malicious monster who wanted to get Dovepaw in trouble. She wanted to be just as good as Dovepaw, and she wanted to see that Dovepaw wasn't as perfect as everyone else made her out to be, etc. But at the end of the day, Dovepaw was being a hypocrite, and still lying to Ivypaw about her powers when that situation happened too. So even when they were both brats, Dovepaw was still worse. I personally don't like to hold what they did against them as teens, both Dovepaw and Ivypaw, yet when talking about Ivypool's worst feats for some reason her actions as IvyPAW are always brought up, while DovePAW's actions, which are equally as bad, if not worse, go unspoken.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 7, 2021 0:32:41 GMT -5
*Ottersplash*, In that case, this seems to be a case of one side misunderstanding the other because you're both focusing on different parts of their lives. ❅Maplefrost❅, I don't think the ones who are defending Dovewing are even trying to say that she wasn't a brat. I'm pretty sure most Dovewing fans acknowledge that, nor is anyone calling Ivypaw a monster. But between meeting with a cat from an enemy Clan and training with evil dead cats, I'm pretty sure the latter is going to come off as worse for most people for obvious reasons, regardless of manipulation. To them, it doesn't really matter who got punished or not because of this. You obviously care, but to others, this is pretty much irrelevant because of how she was acting in general at the time, if that makes sense. But yes, I agree, both of them were terrible and I'm just glad the drama between them is over (btw, off-topic, but I really like your profile pic; it's very cute).
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 7, 2021 0:49:06 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵I don't think so, at least not in my personal discussion with Doveheart, since I make it pretty clear I don't count the apprentice stuff in my post. I just know a lot of us, when discussing Ivypool and Dovewing, try to put the apprentice stuff away because they're just dumb teens.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 7, 2021 1:19:15 GMT -5
Not to be rude but I thought we already established that the only time when they yelled at one another was when they were bratty apprentices. Which I think we can all agree that they're both idiotic when it comes to those days. However, even in that sense, Cygna still has a point. IvyPAW could have just told on Dovepaw any time she wanted to, but didn't, even when Dovepaw snuck back into camp and pretended nothing happened and her sister took all the blunt of punishment. Even worse, she was traded for herbs that Dovepaw blabbed about to her illegal boyfriend....which just makes the situation more ironic. Dovepaw, in that situation, took zero responsibility for her actions while Ivypaw took her punishment for her, she could have easily thrown Dovepaw under the bus but she didn't, especially after Dovepaw threatened to even out her before.
When it comes to the situation with Bumblestripe, she never told her to do anything about getting back with him. She simply implied that if she's so desperate for kits and a mate that she could find happiness in her own clan. Ivypool didn't care how Dovewing made her choice as long as it wasn't her breaking the code and causing an entire mess, which happened anyways. Not to mention, Bumblestripe was still obviously padding after her because Dovewing never properly told him why they broke up, and why they couldn't get back together, she just dropped him like a hot potato. If anyone needs to work on their communication better, it's Dovewing, especially when she only volunteers to go after Twigpaw just to get away from Bumblestripe and avoid talking to him. She intentionally avoids having conversations with Bumblestripe because she's too cowardly to communicate with him, yet has no problem walking up to her sister and talking to her just moments before??
I also don't see anything wrong with slashing a trespassing cat. This was the second time he trespassed into ThunderClan territory at this point, yes? And you agree he's a horrible mate? If anything, he deserved more than just the equivalent of a slap to the face. He deserved to get his behind beaten and chased out of ThunderClan territory. For not only abandoning her sister after she warned him to stay away from her last time, but also breaking the code and trespassing into ThunderClan territory as he pleased when she and her party just got done searching for her lost sister in a storm mind you. He not only lied to her face about Dovewing's whereabouts, but also didn't even tell her that her sister was pregnant, he abandoned Dovewing when she needed him the most, Ivypool not only had every right to be angry at him but she also legally had the right to whoop his fur off her territory. He got off easy imo. But I guess that's because Ivypool had better things to do than waste her time her on her sister's bum of a husband.
Honestly, I personally think Ivypool wasn't tough enough, on either of them. If I were in Ivypool's position I would have already ratted them both out to a leader the moment they ignored my warnings, like DoveTiger did several times. I'm pretty tolerant, but not as tolerant as Ivypool has been the last 3+ years in the series, lol. I vaguely remember this, I probably forgot tbh. Dovepaw wouldn't stop seeing Tigerheart even if Ivypaw did tell the truth. She really didn't do her any favors by keeping the secret. It would have made it a lot harder for her to see Tigerheart with the clan watching her, yes -- but Dovepaw was already too attached to Tigerheart at the time before the catmint thing happened. Telling the truth wasn't going to affect anything between them, and likely strain the relationship even more between both of them. You're not being fair to Dovepaw. She couldn't have done anything. She was a young paw at the time who couldn't take on an entire patrol against several fierce, ShadowClan cats. I still don't understand this argument of people blaming her for this, and it's one of the few times I feel like people are biased here and blame Dovepaw for this because it's Dovepaw's fault Ivypaw was captured when Ivypaw was the one who chose to see them together herself, choosing to walk over there with no one else forcing her to go, and it was Tigerheart who allowed her to get kidnapped. This wasn't Dovepaw's fault alone, but all three were at fault. Dovepaw shouldn't have seen Tigerheart in the first place, Tigerheart allowed his clan to kidnap Ivypaw, while Ivypaw wanted to see them together out of spite. It was a really bad situation that NONE of them should have been in, not JUST Dovepaw. I can't exactly defend Tigerheart since I pretty much agree that he should have been honest about Dovewing's departure from the beginning to Ivypool as she had every right to know about it, and I'm not saying he isn't a good mate, but I'm more annoyed that this situation just gives Ivypool an excuse to be right again and people continue to praise her for this shit, but that's just my own biased personal opinion on Ivypool and how the fandom treats her for always being right. That's why I point it out cause it annoys me that the book gives Ivypool an excuse to always be right about everything. It's just like the Squirrelflight situations. Regardless, it's pretty obvious Dovepaw was being incredibly naïve, and in her own little bubble. Because she was in denial at her sister's words, and then again later when Ivypaw caught them. It's only when she sees Tigerheart falter, and pretty much confirms it, does she realize she messed up. Not to mention, Dovepaw's reason for breaking up with him wasn't even over the fact that he kidnapped her sister and used her as leverage, it was over him breaking the trust between them and telling about the herbs. I mean yeah that's a good reason, but you would think him kidnapping her sister would take priority over that. It makes me wonder if she would have still stayed with him if he hadn't said anything about the herbs, because kidnapping your siblings is apparently not a deal breaker? No one is saying it's Dovepaw's fault she got captured. It's more like the fact that she had the audacity to sneak back into camp and pretend nothing happened. She should have been honest. But she wasn't. She should have told her camp what happened to Ivypaw, her sister, the moment she got back. But she didn't. And she's aware of how wrong her actions were, she feels guilt because she knows that doing nothing and saying nothing was wrong of her. But she continues to do it anyways. That is the real issue here. Heck, Ivypaw even covered for Tigerheart too, against the ShadowClan patrol. She could have easily ratted them both out when they demanded what she was doing, but again, she didn't. While Dovepaw was trying to rationalize her sister not needing immediate help because she was afraid she would get in trouble if she said anything. And instead ops to just pretending nothing happened, and sleeping until morning, then feigning innocence while trying to get the clan to notice she was gone. But instead it just makes everyone worried (especially their parents), then leads to them possibly wasting time with search parties instead of hunting patrols, and Dovepaw is very much aware of how this was just making things worse. Because Ivypaw covered for them and took all the blame, she was the only one to be punished and criticized. And the irony is that cats were questioning Ivypaw's loyalty because of it. Meanwhile Dovepaw got to go to the gathering. Her actions of blabbing the herbs had more possible consequences than is usually pointed out. Yes, Ivypaw did choose to follow them and got taken by them but as Firestar pointed out they didn't chase her off their territory, but instead used her as a hostage because of Dovepaw running her mouth to Tigerheart. There's also Sandstorm and Cherrykit, who were also sick, and could have taken a turn for the worse...they could have died. And just because they didn't happen too, doesn't make the situation any less severe either. Basically Dovepaw, in comparison to Ivypaw, got off incredibly easy, and lucky despite what she did.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 7, 2021 1:42:19 GMT -5
*Ottersplash* , In that case, this seems to be a case of one side misunderstanding the other because you're both focusing on different parts of their lives. ❅Maplefrost❅ , I don't think the ones who are defending Dovewing are even trying to say that she wasn't a brat. I'm pretty sure most Dovewing fans acknowledge that, nor is anyone calling Ivypaw a monster. But between meeting with a cat from an enemy Clan and training with evil dead cats, I'm pretty sure the latter is going to come off as worse for most people for obvious reasons, regardless of manipulation. To them, it doesn't really matter who got punished or not because of this. You obviously care, but to others, this is pretty much irrelevant because of how she was acting in general at the time, if that makes sense. But yes, I agree, both of them were terrible and I'm just glad the drama between them is over (btw, off-topic, but I really like your profile pic; it's very cute). I think it's more because both sister were essentially breaking the code even if they didn't believe they were. However Dovepaw's behavior came off as hypocritical, is what I'm saying. She would get on her sister's case about being "disloyal" when she was doing the same thing, being "disloyal" as well, even if the severities were different. And Dovepaw also gets away with everything she's done, while her sister gets punished for her mistakes instead. Ivypaw was the one that was held prisoner because she blabbed about the herbs. Ivypaw was the one who her clanmates doubted because they thought she was being disloyal. Ivypaw is the one who was punished for being in ShadowClan territory and not Dovepaw. All the while, Ivypaw didn't tell about Dove and Tiger's secret. Meanwhile, Dovepaw feigned innocence so she wouldn't get in trouble. But knew that the situation was collectively getting worse because of it. Patrols were going to be wasted on search parties instead of hunting for food during times when prey was very scarce. Cats were angry and ready to start another war with ShadowClan over Ivypaw, even at a gathering. And Sandstorm and Cherrykit were both sick and could have taken a turn for the worse, and if they had no catmint, then what? (Also thank you, I drew it myself!)
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