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Post by Aqua on May 31, 2021 19:39:34 GMT -5
Was Hollyleaf right or wrong to kill Ashfur?
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Post by Snowfire on May 31, 2021 19:48:13 GMT -5
Wrong probably because Hollyleaf ends up spilling the secret anyways, but if Ashfur was gonna attempt to kill any of the three or any of the cats involved, it would make sense.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 31, 2021 19:58:18 GMT -5
Wrong only if Ashfur wasn’t going to cause any more harm. But knowing him, he totally might’ve if he lived longer.
Right if he was. Knowing his actions in TBC, he totally might’ve tried to harm cats again. He totally might’ve gone for Sparkpelt and Alderheart if he lived to meet them. Or even tried to harm Squirrelflight, or someone like Leafpool or Brambleclaw to hurt Squirrelflight like he tried with the three. Or he could’ve tried to aid in killing Firestar again, or even did it himself.
I mean... Ashfur DID try to kill Hollyleaf and her brothers. Her killing him could count as self-defense or retaliation for the attempted murder.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 31, 2021 21:53:07 GMT -5
Wrong. I think it made the situation worse. It also probably helped him slip into StarClan
Imagine if he'd revealed the secret. They could have claimed he was lying and that Squirrel had to say something because Ashfur was literally trying to murder Lion, Jay, and Holly.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 1, 2021 0:42:08 GMT -5
this one stumps me...
hollyleaf only revealed the secret herself because she found out her true parentage. if she killed ashfur to prevent HIM from spilling the HALF secret, then it's not as wrong...? it was a half secret. ashfur knew the three weren't squirrel x bramble's but neither him nor the three knew the true parentage yet. ashfur would have revealed a HALF truth.
but hollyleaf finding out the FULL truth made her reveal it herself anyways. nothing really changed with her killing ashfur other than any future possibilities of his actions (what if he does another thing bad in the future? though, that's very speculative and not a secure reason to kill him before he or the three knew the full truth).
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 1, 2021 1:26:57 GMT -5
Wrong. It wasn't exactly self-defense considering it was days later after the fire incident, and she did kill him just to keep him quiet. It would be self-defense if it actually did go down how Brambleclaw said it did, but we all know that it didn't. Ashfur was not Hollyleaf's to kill, and her taking justice into her own paws, but then doing his work anyways later, was just wrong by law, but also ironic.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 1, 2021 1:29:17 GMT -5
Right. Ashfur literally tried to kill her and her family. He deserved it
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Post by Rainsplash on Jun 1, 2021 3:47:40 GMT -5
Wrong. Ashfur was going to reveal a secret, which has no evidence. The others could easily say "What the heck? Ashfur's lying". Hollyleaf killed Ashfur because... because she thought he was a future threat. But at that time, it seemed Ashfur's only revenge would be revealing a secret, and Hollyleaf... I don't think murder would be the right response to that.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jun 1, 2021 7:04:23 GMT -5
Technically, by moral laws, I suppose it was wrong, but given the fact that Hollyleaf was trying to protect her family (and herself), I almost want to say it's right, because keeping your family safe is very important.
I know she spills the secret eventually, but that was later on, she hadn't planned on telling everyone until her mental stability was really going out.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 1, 2021 9:07:42 GMT -5
Technically, by moral laws, I suppose it was wrong, but given the fact that Hollyleaf was trying to protect her family (and herself), I almost want to say it's right, because keeping your family safe is very important. I know she spills the secret eventually, but that was later on, she hadn't planned on telling everyone until her mental stability was really going out. Hollyleaf actually wasn't trying to keep her family safe. We see her thought process and it is astoundingly selfish "She felt completely powerless, now that she knew she wasn’t one of the three: Her belief in the prophecy had made her feel that she could do anything, but Ashfur had torn that belief away from her. A cat with the power of the stars in her paws would have been able to stop one cat from speaking words that would tear his Clan apart. But plain Hollyleaf, no longer Firestar’s kin, could do nothing. A hot flood of fury swept through Hollyleaf and she paused, digging her claws into the sodden ground. More than anything, she wanted to be one of the three; she wanted to be special, to have a destiny beyond that of any other cat. I deserve to! Her need tore at her belly like sharp pangs of hunger. I’d work harder than any cat to be a great leader, and leave my paw print on all the Clans. I can’t let Ashfur destroy all my plans." I think this is the big reason why I think it was wrong. If Hollyleaf had killed Ashfur in self defense, or even just because she was scared of what he'd do to her family, that would be one thing. But it never once comes up in her internal thoughts. Instead she's just angry that he took away her "destiny". She's upset that her pride was hurt. And that's why I think it was wrong, because she killed him more for that than anything else, and that's an awful reason to kill someone.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 1, 2021 10:52:07 GMT -5
Wrong. Also, i fully agree with what *Ottersplash* said.
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Aroace
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 1, 2021 12:30:17 GMT -5
Hollyleaf was wrong to kill Ashfur and it also didn't exactly help with keeping her mental state intact.
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Asexual
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 1, 2021 17:26:08 GMT -5
Wrong, because of what Vectoring and Ottersplash said above. Not to mention that Hollyleaf was only killing him for her own well-being too.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 1, 2021 18:17:32 GMT -5
Technically, by moral laws, I suppose it was wrong, but given the fact that Hollyleaf was trying to protect her family (and herself), I almost want to say it's right, because keeping your family safe is very important. I know she spills the secret eventually, but that was later on, she hadn't planned on telling everyone until her mental stability was really going out. Hollyleaf actually wasn't trying to keep her family safe. We see her thought process and it is astoundingly selfish "She felt completely powerless, now that she knew she wasn’t one of the three: Her belief in the prophecy had made her feel that she could do anything, but Ashfur had torn that belief away from her. A cat with the power of the stars in her paws would have been able to stop one cat from speaking words that would tear his Clan apart. But plain Hollyleaf, no longer Firestar’s kin, could do nothing. A hot flood of fury swept through Hollyleaf and she paused, digging her claws into the sodden ground. More than anything, she wanted to be one of the three; she wanted to be special, to have a destiny beyond that of any other cat. I deserve to! Her need tore at her belly like sharp pangs of hunger. I’d work harder than any cat to be a great leader, and leave my paw print on all the Clans. I can’t let Ashfur destroy all my plans." I think this is the big reason why I think it was wrong. If Hollyleaf had killed Ashfur in self defense, or even just because she was scared of what he'd do to her family, that would be one thing. But it never once comes up in her internal thoughts. Instead she's just angry that he took away her "destiny". She's upset that her pride was hurt. And that's why I think it was wrong, because she killed him more for that than anything else, and that's an awful reason to kill someone. What book is this in?
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 1, 2021 18:39:19 GMT -5
Hollyleaf actually wasn't trying to keep her family safe. We see her thought process and it is astoundingly selfish "She felt completely powerless, now that she knew she wasn’t one of the three: Her belief in the prophecy had made her feel that she could do anything, but Ashfur had torn that belief away from her. A cat with the power of the stars in her paws would have been able to stop one cat from speaking words that would tear his Clan apart. But plain Hollyleaf, no longer Firestar’s kin, could do nothing. A hot flood of fury swept through Hollyleaf and she paused, digging her claws into the sodden ground. More than anything, she wanted to be one of the three; she wanted to be special, to have a destiny beyond that of any other cat. I deserve to! Her need tore at her belly like sharp pangs of hunger. I’d work harder than any cat to be a great leader, and leave my paw print on all the Clans. I can’t let Ashfur destroy all my plans." I think this is the big reason why I think it was wrong. If Hollyleaf had killed Ashfur in self defense, or even just because she was scared of what he'd do to her family, that would be one thing. But it never once comes up in her internal thoughts. Instead she's just angry that he took away her "destiny". She's upset that her pride was hurt. And that's why I think it was wrong, because she killed him more for that than anything else, and that's an awful reason to kill someone. What book is this in? Long Shadows, when the three are all interacting with Ashfur prior to his murder. It sets up some interesting contrasts Jayfeather uses his dream walking to try to spook Ashfur but admits to himself a few times that all he can do is just bluff Ashfur and if he works up the nerve, he can't do much else. Lionblaze has more murderous thoughts but is more focused on how he feels betrayed by Ashfur and how it's so wrong that after Ashfur had spent so much time doing good things for the clan, he's turning his back on it. Hollyleaf is more worried about herself than anything else and seems to have already made up her mind to murder him given her lackdaisical response to the whole situation.
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Post by downfalls on Jun 1, 2021 22:20:51 GMT -5
She was right. Ashfur was trying to kill Squirrelflight, her and her siblings. He deserved it.
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