|
Post by cygna on May 30, 2021 19:03:28 GMT -5
Who was arguably the better cat to be deputy?
Do you like one more than the other?
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on May 30, 2021 19:08:33 GMT -5
I hate them both
Tornstar or Ashstar would have been better choices
And at the time that Tallstar chose Onestar, he WAS the better choice (as we see that he starts off being a pretty okay leader). Mudclaw is ego bound and power driven so wasn't a suitable leader either.
|
|
#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
|
Post by Featherstar on May 30, 2021 19:10:34 GMT -5
I feel like Mudclaw would have been better at leadership. Just look at Onestar! He led WindClan the complete utter wrong way then Tallstar wanted. And Onestar was once Firestar and Graystripe's friend at one point!
|
|
#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
|
Post by Featherstar on May 30, 2021 19:11:48 GMT -5
I hate them both Tornstar or Ashstar would have been better choices And at the time that Tallstar chose Onestar, he WAS the better choice (as we see that he starts off being a pretty okay leader). Mudclaw is ego bound and power driven so wasn't a suitable leader either. Please no Ashstar! That reminds me too much of Fakestar a.k.a Ashfur.
|
|
|
Post by Mothdapple on May 30, 2021 19:31:30 GMT -5
I voted for “both of them would’ve been equally garbage.”
Onestar was a horrible leader, but I believe Mudclaw would’ve been horrible as well. He was ambitious and aggressive, plus had ties to Hawkfrost. His manga showed just why Mudclaw shouldn’t have been leader. There would’ve been a lot of bloodshed, similarly to the bloodshed Onestar caused as well. They are both horrible.
Honestly, Tallstar should’ve chosen Ashfoot or Tornear instead. They would’ve made much better leaders than Onestar or Mudclaw.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on May 30, 2021 19:35:45 GMT -5
Mudclaw as leader gets you an overly aggressive, easily manipulated fool as a leader. Onestar was the better pick up until he became paranoid in the wake of Mudclaw's rebellion
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 30, 2021 19:38:54 GMT -5
Mudclaw, at most he'd be a watered-down version of Blackstar, so I feel like I'd be able to tolerate him more over Onestar. With Onestar, I still can't really get over the fact he was going to let ShadowClan die out from sickness just to cover up his own personal problems from his past. His decisions there had nothing to do with Mudclaw and were just down right awful.
|
|
Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
|
Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on May 30, 2021 19:42:08 GMT -5
Both would be equally garbage leaders because Mudclaw was too aggressive and paranoid and Onestar became a bad leader and person later on. I don't think I wish ever like Mudclaw as leader tbh.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on May 30, 2021 19:42:47 GMT -5
I hate them both Tornstar or Ashstar would have been better choices And at the time that Tallstar chose Onestar, he WAS the better choice (as we see that he starts off being a pretty okay leader). Mudclaw is ego bound and power driven so wasn't a suitable leader either. Please no Ashstar! That reminds me too much of Fakestar a.k.a Ashfur. But Ashfoot isn't Ashfur so she very much would have been a wonderful leader. Much better than the other two options
|
|
#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
|
Post by Featherstar on May 30, 2021 19:48:30 GMT -5
Please no Ashstar! That reminds me too much of Fakestar a.k.a Ashfur. But Ashfoot isn't Ashfur so she very much would have been a wonderful leader. Much better than the other two options ...
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 30, 2021 19:48:49 GMT -5
Please no Ashstar! That reminds me too much of Fakestar a.k.a Ashfur. But Ashfoot isn't Ashfur so she very much would have been a wonderful leader. Much better than the other two options Better? Yeah, I can agree on that, but I don't think she would have been good, or the best tbh. It always rubbed me the wrong way how she went along with Onestar's horrid behavior. Especially in the scene where Brambleclaw and his group tried to talk to her about the prey stealing and she refused to let them through. It's obvious she was against what was going on in WindClan but she didn't do anything against it, despite her position. I feel like if she had became leader, she would have needed a stronger deputy to balance out her passiveness.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 30, 2021 19:52:04 GMT -5
everyone already knows my opinion on this!
im a loud mudclaw loyalist. mudclaw would have no personal or petty grudge against thunderclan (or firestar), so that already makes him the better leader. being protective of borders isn't that bad either. teaching windclan to protect themselves after suffering through brokenstar driving them out not that long ago is a good thing. border disputes and arguments would happen, sure, but that's just normal clan life. protecting your food and land for the benfit of your clan (your family!) is important and i cant fault mudclaw for making that his #1 priority.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on May 30, 2021 21:43:53 GMT -5
But Ashfoot isn't Ashfur so she very much would have been a wonderful leader. Much better than the other two options Better? Yeah, I can agree on that, but I don't think she would have been good, or the best tbh. It always rubbed me the wrong way how she went along with Onestar's horrid behavior. Especially in the scene where Brambleclaw and his group tried to talk to her about the prey stealing and she refused to let them through. It's obvious she was against what was going on in WindClan but she didn't do anything against it, despite her position. I feel like if she had became leader, she would have needed a stronger deputy to balance out her passiveness. Thankfully, it's WindClan so she doesn't have to be the best or toughest (that's a Shadowclan issue) I think her and Tornear could have been a better pair. They're ironically siblings of Mudclaw and Onewhisker too, but like...the better version. They're both level headed though, unlike Mudclaw or Onestar
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on May 30, 2021 21:46:00 GMT -5
Both would be awful. Sorry, but if Mudclaw is willing to murder his own clanmates when he doesn’t get the position to control them, and when he makes deals with Hawkfrost after spending so much time stating that he only cares for Windclan and accepts no other clan’s help, then not only is he dangerously ambitious and quick to violence but he’s also a hypocrite. I don’t have to say anything for Onestar, we already know his issues.
|
|
|
Post by Mothdapple on May 30, 2021 22:07:48 GMT -5
Both would be awful. Sorry, but if Mudclaw is willing to murder his own clanmates when he doesn’t get the position to control them, and when he makes deals with Hawkfrost after spending so much time stating that he only cares for Windclan and accepts no other clan’s help, then not only is he dangerously ambitious and quick to violence but he’s also a hypocrite. I don’t have to say anything for Onestar, we already know his issues. Thank you for saying this!! Mudclaw was horrible and would’ve been a horrible leader as well. He was aggressive and a hypocrite. Onestar was horrible, but who knows what would’ve happened if we got Mudstar??
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 9:25:55 GMT -5
Mudclaw was willing to let a fox maim/kill Onewhisker without saying anything, out of pettiness. The fox could've gone on to injure or kill the rest of his Clanmates present. Good on Tornear for calling him out. He acknowledges that Hawkfrost's plan will involve killing Onewhisker and most likely Ashfoot too, and will cause pain and suffering akin to Tigerstar's reign. But he goes along with it anyway, because 'WindClan comes first'. WC comes first, yet he offers Hawkfrost deputyship instead of one of his WC supporters. WC comes first, yet he attacks his own Clanmates who he has fought beside for moons, including his own brother, with the intent to murder one if not two of them. Mudclaw was always trash and this book just confirmed it by showing just how low he was willing to stoop just to get a taste of power and control. Just because Mudclaw had some convenient revelation at the end and Onestar ended up being the way he was doesn't justify anything Mudclaw did or somehow make him in the right or good by default.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on May 31, 2021 14:11:55 GMT -5
Mudclaw was willing to let a fox maim/kill Onewhisker without saying anything, out of pettiness. The fox could've gone on to injure or kill the rest of his Clanmates present. Good on Tornear for calling him out. He acknowledges that Hawkfrost's plan will involve killing Onewhisker and most likely Ashfoot too, and will cause pain and suffering akin to Tigerstar's reign. But he goes along with it anyway, because 'WindClan comes first'. WC comes first, yet he offers Hawkfrost deputyship instead of one of his WC supporters. WC comes first, yet he attacks his own Clanmates who he has fought beside for moons, including his own brother, with the intent to murder one if not two of them. Mudclaw was always trash and this book just confirmed it by showing just how low he was willing to stoop just to get a taste of power and control. Just because Mudclaw had some convenient revelation at the end and Onestar ended up being the way he was doesn't justify anything Mudclaw did or somehow make him in the right or good by default. Exactly this! People keep justifying him by pointing out how bad Onestar became, but that doesn't make Mudclaw somehow better. People also keep saying he cared deeply about WindClan, but like...no. He cared about his ego and power. If he cared about WindClan, he would have been helping Onestar (Onestar asks his opinion but Mudclaw ignores him), have taken the deputy position when Onestar OFFERED it to him, and would not have conspired with Hawkfrost because that meant Hawkfrost would have become Windclan deputy. Why would you entrust your clan to someone who clear doesn't mind throwing his to the dogs because he thinks he should have power? Mudclaw is selfish. What Tallstar did sucks, but the way Mudclaw handled it shows exactly why Tallstar was right to not want him to be leader.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 31, 2021 14:20:43 GMT -5
Just because we still prefer Mudclaw over Onestar doesn't mean we don't acknowledge what Mudclaw has done. It just means out of the two we still prefer Mudclaw, and believe that he's still the better option compared to Onestar. At the end of the day, Mudclaw's pettiness will never be as horrible as how Onestar behaved.
Mudclaw had a right to be angry at Onestar. Onestar's entire promotion was suspicious. He was pretty much under Firestar's thumb, another clan leader. And he had zero credentials for his position. It makes sense that he didn't trust Onestar, and thought he'd be possibly better off dead than dragging and leading WindClan. Also Hawkfrost manipulating his doubts further, made him believe that Firestar was just trying to get more power for himself, and using WindClan was just another step in that direction.
Tallstar only changed his mind because he wanted peace between ThunderClan and WindClan, and because Onestar was Firestar's friend. There's nothing wrong with Mudclaw being protective of his clan after it's been kicked around by so many dictators at this point, but he was stripped from his position because of foolish reasons. Not because of Mudclaw's later actions in the manga, just like how Onestar was chosen to be a peaceful leader but ironically ended up as anything but. Tallstar wasn't right about anything.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on May 31, 2021 14:32:35 GMT -5
Let's not act like the demotion came out of nowhere, Mudclaw had screwed up on the journey really badly when he nearly got the Windclanners killed due to his ego. That alone would have been just cause to demote him, but furthermore we also know that he had learned absolutely nothing from the journey. That is REALLY bad when Starclan itself made a point about how the journey should have brought them all closer together, yet he is stubborn and does not see any of that. None of those make him bad, but it makes demoting him understandable, and quite frankly, Onewhisker's credentials aren't anymore lacking than Mudclaw's. Let's not forget, in TPB, when Tallstar went to negotiate with Thunderclan, Mudclaw freaked out against his orders and almost ruined the whole peace meeting. Onewhisker had to physically tackle him and drag him back into line, how embarrassing must that have looked for Mudclaw to be unable to control his emotions?
Anyway, it's hardly fair to excuse the actions Mudclaw took after being demoted if you're going to criticize Onestar for his actions post-rebellion. If you want to excuse those as only taking place due to unforeseen circumstances, fine, but then one must afford Onestar the same leeway since we know full well that his paranoia was a slippery slope started thanks to Mudclaw and his gang attempting to murder him and his deputy.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 31, 2021 14:42:59 GMT -5
Him making one or two mistakes shouldn't = to him getting demoted. Everyone was in a position where they were stressed and under high tensions. They just lost their homes, they were relocating, and everyone feared for their lives. Hold one or two accidents against him shouldn't mean that he should be suddenly demoted. Especially when the manga doesn't even acknowledge that scene as a reason for Tallstar demoting him. Tallstar's demotion of him came from how protective he was being of WindClan, and how he wasn't as friendly with other clans as Tallstar himself would have been. Just because the journey brought them all closer together doesn't mean it was going to stay that way. Obviously, the clans were going to eventually split back up again, into their own individual clans once more. And then return to what life used to be akin to, like back at the old forest. StarClan has put it down many times, there were meant to be four(five) clans, not one. Mudclaw has served seasons as deputy compared to Onestar who didn't know how to even make his own decisions. He askes Ashfoot and Mudclaw, but Mudclaw isn't obligated to help him. He should rely on his deputy more, but his deputy is just as much at a loss as he is. Onestar didn't have credentials or training to be a leader, and Ashfoot was nowhere ready to be giving her leader advice when she's barely had her own position as long. And even before Onestar was made leader he honestly never had the right to that position anyways considering his relationship with Smoke. It may have come back to bite him on the leg later, but it definitely happened back in the old forest. He was busy out, hanging with kittypets, getting one pregnant, and then abandoning her out of fear someone would find out about his secret and ruin his reputation. He himself is a coward.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on May 31, 2021 14:54:43 GMT -5
Him making one or two mistake shouldn't = to him getting demoted. Everyone was in a position where they were stressed and under high tensions. They just lost their homes, they were relocating, and everyone feared for their lives. Hold one or two accidents against him shouldn't mean that he should be suddenly demoted. Especially when the manga doesn't even acknowledge that scene as a reason for Tallstar demoting him. Tallstar's demotion of him came from how protective he was being of WindClan, and how he wasn't as friendly with other clans as Tallstar himself would have been. Just because the journey brought them all closer together doesn't mean it was going to stay that way. Obviously, the clans were going to eventually split back up again, into their own individual clans once more. And then return to what life used to be akin to, like back at the old forest. StarClan has put it down many times, there were meant to be four(five) clans, not one. Mudclaw has served seasons as deputy compared to Onestar who didn't know how to even make his own decisions. He askes Ashfoot and Mudclaw, but Mudclaw isn't obligated to help him. He should rely on his deputy more, but his deputy is just as much at a loss as he is. Onestar didn't have credentials or training to be a leader, and Ashfoot was nowhere ready to be giving her leader advice when she's barely had her own position as long. And even before Onestar was made leader he honestly never had the right to that position anyways considering his relationship with Smoke. It may have come back to bite him on the leg later, but it definitely happened back in the old forest. He was busy out, hanging with kittypets, getting one pregnant, and then abandoning her out of fear someone would find out about his secret and ruin his reputation. He himself is a coward. We've seen what happens when cats are allowed to be deputies even when their mistakes put cats' lives at risk. That was how we got the likes of Raggedstar. Yes, one mistake getting a demotion is absolutely fair when it was as bad as Mudclaw's mistake. The higher your position is, the greater your responsibility should be and consequently the greater the penalties when you fail. Moreover, while Tallstar doesn't give it out by name, Mudclaw's being overly aggressive is brought up and that is part of it. Mudclaw didn't trust that Crowpaw knew the path better, and so he aggressively ignored his advice(despite already seeing that the journey gang was knowledgeable) and consequently he put his clan at great risk. Of course they should remain split up, but the journey was also necessary in order to have them work together on problems. Mudclaw wanted to pick a fight over everything, and that is not conducive to the kind of life the clans lead at the lake. Everyone criticizes Tigerheart rightly for acting horribly at the end of AVOS and in Squirrelflight's Hope, and that's precisely because he picked random fights. Just like we can be reasonably sure Mudclaw would have. Just because Onestar wants advice from his senior warriors and deputy doesn't reflect poorly on him as a leader. Every new leader does that, many great ones in fact do that. Indeed, Goosefeather argues in Bluestar's Prophecy that it's so standard for leaders to ask these things that it's not seen as a valuable trait in a deputy whether they are good counsel or not, since good counsel can be found in the senior warriors. Onestar asking questions is a very small marring on his leadership. While Onestar's acts with Smoke were abhorrent, I don't know if being ashamed of kits and then abandoning them makes you a bad leader. After all, that's what Bluestar did, and she turned out fine enough as a leader. Very morally icky, but it's not quite as bad as Mudclaw's faux pas's in the past when it comes to political life. I'm fine with saying Onestar was a faithless cat to begin with, but this is talking about their supposed leaderships. Those are not the same thing.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 31, 2021 15:00:50 GMT -5
Neither, Ashfoot should've been picked from the start, or maybe even Tornear. That being said, what Onestar ends up doing after he becomes leader doesn't make Mudclaw's actions any less abhorrent. At the very least, Tallstar should've called for his deputy to be present.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 31, 2021 15:05:27 GMT -5
Him making one or two mistake shouldn't = to him getting demoted. Everyone was in a position where they were stressed and under high tensions. They just lost their homes, they were relocating, and everyone feared for their lives. Hold one or two accidents against him shouldn't mean that he should be suddenly demoted. Especially when the manga doesn't even acknowledge that scene as a reason for Tallstar demoting him. Tallstar's demotion of him came from how protective he was being of WindClan, and how he wasn't as friendly with other clans as Tallstar himself would have been. Just because the journey brought them all closer together doesn't mean it was going to stay that way. Obviously, the clans were going to eventually split back up again, into their own individual clans once more. And then return to what life used to be akin to, like back at the old forest. StarClan has put it down many times, there were meant to be four(five) clans, not one. Mudclaw has served seasons as deputy compared to Onestar who didn't know how to even make his own decisions. He askes Ashfoot and Mudclaw, but Mudclaw isn't obligated to help him. He should rely on his deputy more, but his deputy is just as much at a loss as he is. Onestar didn't have credentials or training to be a leader, and Ashfoot was nowhere ready to be giving her leader advice when she's barely had her own position as long. And even before Onestar was made leader he honestly never had the right to that position anyways considering his relationship with Smoke. It may have come back to bite him on the leg later, but it definitely happened back in the old forest. He was busy out, hanging with kittypets, getting one pregnant, and then abandoning her out of fear someone would find out about his secret and ruin his reputation. He himself is a coward. We've seen what happens when cats are allowed to be deputies even when their mistakes put cats' lives at risk. That was how we got the likes of Raggedstar. Yes, one mistake getting a demotion is absolutely fair when it was as bad as Mudclaw's mistake. The higher your position is, the greater your responsibility should be and consequently the greater the penalties when you fail. Moreover, while Tallstar doesn't give it out by name, Mudclaw's being overly aggressive is brought up and that is part of it. Mudclaw didn't trust that Crowpaw knew the path better, and so he aggressively ignored his advice(despite already seeing that the journey gang was knowledgeable) and consequently he put his clan at great risk. Of course they should remain split up, but the journey was also necessary in order to have them work together on problems. Mudclaw wanted to pick a fight over everything, and that is not conducive to the kind of life the clans lead at the lake. Everyone criticizes Tigerheart rightly for acting horribly at the end of AVOS and in Squirrelflight's Hope, and that's precisely because he picked random fights. Just like we can be reasonably sure Mudclaw would have. Just because Onestar wants advice from his senior warriors and deputy doesn't reflect poorly on him as a leader. Every new leader does that, many great ones in fact do that. Indeed, Goosefeather argues in Bluestar's Prophecy that it's so standard for leaders to ask these things that it's not seen as a valuable trait in a deputy whether they are good counsel or not, since good counsel can be found in the senior warriors. Onestar asking questions is a very small marring on his leadership. While Onestar's acts with Smoke were abhorrent, I don't know if being ashamed of kits and then abandoning them makes you a bad leader. After all, that's what Bluestar did, and she turned out fine enough as a leader. Very morally icky, but it's not quite as bad as Mudclaw's faux pas's in the past when it comes to political life. If Mudclaw's actions on the thunderpath was that horrible then Tallstar should have demoted him then, when they were out of danger. But he didn't. Especially when this is back when he still had more strength before the entire journey, because by the end of it he was very much ready to keel over. If the thunderpath incident truly was a reason to demote him then do it then, but if he's going to demote him later for other reasons, then it makes it irrelevant imo. And just because a character is aggressive doesn't mean that they're horrible person. You have openly aggressive characters in ThunderClan like Thornclaw and Berrynose, but does it make either of them horrible? No. Being aggressive, or ambitious, shouldn't be reasons as to why cats shouldn't be trusted or liked. And I find it oddly ironic considering Tallstar himself chose Mudclaw because of those reasons, to help protect his clan better, so they weren't just pushovers anymore. For him to demote Mudclaw because it's no longer convenient to him is wrong. Onestar asking Mudclaw questions after stealing his position is ironic. As I said, Mudclaw has not obligation to help him, and honestly if he actually had the necessary training then Onestar wouldn't have been struggling so much. Bluestar had no right to leadership just as much as Onestar didn't. They both broke the code, kits died for it, and they both hid their shame just to secure their reputations. Bluestar's situation also came back to bite her on the leg as well. I highly doubt Onestar would have quickly been considered as a choice over Mudclaw if his clan knew he betrayed their loyalty and broke the code, and the same can easily be said for Bluestar. Tallstar can still choose another cat over Mudclaw later, but it sure to StarClan wouldn't have been Onestar of all people. Because being "Firestar's bestie" shouldn't be a reason to choose a deputy.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 15:09:22 GMT -5
neither because of a bloodbath and indirectly causing 3 clans to lose their camp etc
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 31, 2021 15:12:25 GMT -5
neither because of a bloodbath and indirectly causing 3 clans to lose their camp etc Didn't you already say this? You don't need to post twice. It's fine if no one replies to you if that's what you're expecting.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 31, 2021 15:12:51 GMT -5
onestar's petty reasons for starting the eclipse battle is proof that he knew mudclaw should have been leader over him. he even says it in AVOS when things go to crap. as a coward, he couldnt bring himself to say no to tallstar, to firestar or brambleclaw at the time. he only agreed to be leader, despite not feeling ready, because he was peer pressured into it.
i will always take comfort in knowing that even onestar himself knew he shouldnt have been leader.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 31, 2021 15:16:52 GMT -5
onestar's petty reasons for starting the eclipse battle is proof that he knew mudclaw should have been leader over him. he even says it in AVOS when things go to crap. as a coward, he couldnt bring himself to say no to tallstar, to firestar or brambleclaw at the time. he only agreed to be leader, despite not feeling ready, because he was peer pressured into it. i will always take comfort in knowing that even onestar himself knew he shouldnt have been leader. Ironically there's side stories where Tallstar doubts his decision and asks Bluestar for advice then then stubbornly goes, what's done is done attitude, there's no going back. And then another side story where Onestar actively seeks Tallstar out in a dream and attacks him out of anger over the position change, and because he defeated him, Tallstar thinks it's proof he made the right choice...?? Like Onestar had plenty of opportunities to step down, say no, walk away from the situation, but instead he just stood by and let it happen.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on May 31, 2021 15:43:51 GMT -5
We've seen what happens when cats are allowed to be deputies even when their mistakes put cats' lives at risk. That was how we got the likes of Raggedstar. Yes, one mistake getting a demotion is absolutely fair when it was as bad as Mudclaw's mistake. The higher your position is, the greater your responsibility should be and consequently the greater the penalties when you fail. Moreover, while Tallstar doesn't give it out by name, Mudclaw's being overly aggressive is brought up and that is part of it. Mudclaw didn't trust that Crowpaw knew the path better, and so he aggressively ignored his advice(despite already seeing that the journey gang was knowledgeable) and consequently he put his clan at great risk. Of course they should remain split up, but the journey was also necessary in order to have them work together on problems. Mudclaw wanted to pick a fight over everything, and that is not conducive to the kind of life the clans lead at the lake. Everyone criticizes Tigerheart rightly for acting horribly at the end of AVOS and in Squirrelflight's Hope, and that's precisely because he picked random fights. Just like we can be reasonably sure Mudclaw would have. Just because Onestar wants advice from his senior warriors and deputy doesn't reflect poorly on him as a leader. Every new leader does that, many great ones in fact do that. Indeed, Goosefeather argues in Bluestar's Prophecy that it's so standard for leaders to ask these things that it's not seen as a valuable trait in a deputy whether they are good counsel or not, since good counsel can be found in the senior warriors. Onestar asking questions is a very small marring on his leadership. While Onestar's acts with Smoke were abhorrent, I don't know if being ashamed of kits and then abandoning them makes you a bad leader. After all, that's what Bluestar did, and she turned out fine enough as a leader. Very morally icky, but it's not quite as bad as Mudclaw's faux pas's in the past when it comes to political life. If Mudclaw's actions on the thunderpath was that horrible then Tallstar should have demoted him then, when they were out of danger. But he didn't. Especially when this is back when he still had more strength before the entire journey, because by the end of it he was very much ready to keel over. If the thunderpath incident truly was a reason to demote him then do it then, but if he's going to demote him later for other reasons, then it makes it irrelevant imo. And just because a character is aggressive doesn't mean that they're horrible person. You have openly aggressive characters in ThunderClan like Thornclaw and Berrynose, but does it make either of them horrible? No. Being aggressive, or ambitious, shouldn't be reasons as to why cats shouldn't be trusted or liked. And I find it oddly ironic considering Tallstar himself chose Mudclaw because of those reasons, to help protect his clan better, so they weren't just pushovers anymore. For him to demote Mudclaw because it's no longer convenient to him is wrong. Onestar asking Mudclaw questions after stealing his position is ironic. As I said, Mudclaw has not obligation to help him, and honestly if he actually had the necessary training then Onestar wouldn't have been struggling so much. Bluestar had no right to leadership just as much as Onestar didn't. They both broke the code, kits died for it, and they both hid their shame just to secure their reputations. Bluestar's situation also came back to bite her on the leg as well. I highly doubt Onestar would have quickly been considered as a choice over Mudclaw if his clan knew he betrayed their loyalty and broke the code, and the same can easily be said for Bluestar. Tallstar can still choose another cat over Mudclaw later, but it sure to StarClan wouldn't have been Onestar of all people. Because being "Firestar's bestie" shouldn't be a reason to choose a deputy. Tallstar demoting Mudclaw mid journey was impractical. They were in a high stakes situation where there was no time at all to start disputes. Moreover, it wasn't just the Thunderclan situation, but you get a death of a thousand cuts as Mudclaw throughout the journey generally just does not act well. Being aggressive isn't inherently bad, but given Starclan's very clear messaging on the issue it's clear that being aggressive at the lake is wrong for a leader to bring their clan into. Aggression causing someone to get demoted from their position because they no longer fit the vision that the leader wants to uphold(or Starclan for that matter) is perfectly reasonable. If Mudclaw's talents are no longer relevant, oh well. Onestar did nothing to steal Mudclaw's position, how is it ironic that he wants advice from him? He still clearly respected Mudclaw and held him in high regard. The fact that Mudclaw proceeds to then throw a tantrum about it and refuse to help just shows that Windclan isn't as important his bruised ego. If he really cared about Windclan so much, then he should help try to mold Onestar as best he can for Windclan's sake, not just sit and sulk like a moody teenager. I think personal romantic failings aren't quite so severe an indictment of leadership status (especially with Onestar, who had no way of knowing Smoke was going to be in danger). But anyway, I think Onewhisker literally jumping Mudclaw and dragging him back by the scruff during Thunderclan peace negotiations was probably a bigger factor than liking Firestar. Onewhisker was willing to talk to other clans to avoid violence, Mudclaw couldn't even handle getting insulted once before he needed Onewhisker to slap him sense into him. Onewhisker having good relations with Firestar was a nice bonus, but it's pretty clear that what Tallstar really thought he'd get out of Onewhisker is someone who's willing to make diplomatic choices. In theory, that would have made for someone who would fit in really well in the much more peaceful lake society.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 31, 2021 17:26:26 GMT -5
If Mudclaw's actions on the thunderpath was that horrible then Tallstar should have demoted him then, when they were out of danger. But he didn't. Especially when this is back when he still had more strength before the entire journey, because by the end of it he was very much ready to keel over. If the thunderpath incident truly was a reason to demote him then do it then, but if he's going to demote him later for other reasons, then it makes it irrelevant imo. And just because a character is aggressive doesn't mean that they're horrible person. You have openly aggressive characters in ThunderClan like Thornclaw and Berrynose, but does it make either of them horrible? No. Being aggressive, or ambitious, shouldn't be reasons as to why cats shouldn't be trusted or liked. And I find it oddly ironic considering Tallstar himself chose Mudclaw because of those reasons, to help protect his clan better, so they weren't just pushovers anymore. For him to demote Mudclaw because it's no longer convenient to him is wrong. Onestar asking Mudclaw questions after stealing his position is ironic. As I said, Mudclaw has not obligation to help him, and honestly if he actually had the necessary training then Onestar wouldn't have been struggling so much. Bluestar had no right to leadership just as much as Onestar didn't. They both broke the code, kits died for it, and they both hid their shame just to secure their reputations. Bluestar's situation also came back to bite her on the leg as well. I highly doubt Onestar would have quickly been considered as a choice over Mudclaw if his clan knew he betrayed their loyalty and broke the code, and the same can easily be said for Bluestar. Tallstar can still choose another cat over Mudclaw later, but it sure to StarClan wouldn't have been Onestar of all people. Because being "Firestar's bestie" shouldn't be a reason to choose a deputy. Tallstar demoting Mudclaw mid journey was impractical. They were in a high stakes situation where there was no time at all to start disputes. Moreover, it wasn't just the Thunderclan situation, but you get a death of a thousand cuts as Mudclaw throughout the journey generally just does not act well. If you hire someone for a long term job then dump them late in the game because they no longer align with your visions, in such an unconventional way, it just looks bad. Tallstar didn't even call Mudclaw to be present when he was changing deputies, a lot of things could have been avoided. Being aggressive isn't inherently bad, but given Starclan's very clear messaging on the issue it's clear that being aggressive at the lake is wrong for a leader to bring their clan into. Aggression causing someone to get demoted from their position because they no longer fit the vision that the leader wants to uphold(or Starclan for that matter) is perfectly reasonable. If Mudclaw's talents are no longer relevant, oh well. Onestar did nothing to steal Mudclaw's position, how is it ironic that he wants advice from him? He still clearly respected Mudclaw and held him in high regard. The fact that Mudclaw proceeds to then throw a tantrum about it and refuse to help just shows that Windclan isn't as important his bruised ego. If he really cared about Windclan so much, then he should help try to mold Onestar as best he can for Windclan's sake, not just sit and sulk like a moody teenager. I think personal romantic failings aren't quite so severe an indictment of leadership status (especially with Onestar, who had no way of knowing Smoke was going to be in danger). But anyway, I think Onewhisker literally jumping Mudclaw and dragging him back by the scruff during Thunderclan peace negotiations was probably a bigger factor than liking Firestar. Onewhisker was willing to talk to other clans to avoid violence, Mudclaw couldn't even handle getting insulted once before he needed Onewhisker to slap him sense into him. Onewhisker having good relations with Firestar was a nice bonus, but it's pretty clear that what Tallstar really thought he'd get out of Onewhisker is someone who's willing to make diplomatic choices. In theory, that would have made for someone who would fit in really well in the much more peaceful lake society. Hiring someone for their specific credentials but then suddenly dumping them afterwards through the words of a rival company isn't practical though. It's like saying, hey we don't need you anymore, without warning, then dumping him aside with his office supplies just because they think they found someone better. Regardless, imo it was wrong, but that's my opinion on the matter. They hired him for a long term position, made him take and oath, and kept him until it was seen as convenient to dump him. It's almost as if they just used Mudclaw. Mudclaw isn't a sheep, he has his own right to criticize a leader who lacks skills and training for the position they're in. Even when he didn't care to give Onestar advice, he still defended WindClan's reputation and Onestar from other rival clans belittling them. And when he did actually give his advice, and even PLEAD with Onestar not to give up vital territory they needed, Onestar didn't listen either. Either they were both in the wrong or neither is wrong. Onestar had TWO chances to help Smoke and didn't. One when she was pregnant and had no support to help her with her kits, and after she lost her children and only had Darktail left. Both times Onestar rejected her out of shame and fear of what his clanmates would think of him. He broke the code, his loyalty to the clan and then hid it away for years. Also Mudclaw HAS asked other clans for help, he's done it before, he's not above having peaceful negotiations or asking for help, but that doesn't mean he'll roll over and let other clans also decide everything for them. Hell, there was even a time when he defended Onewhisker after he stole prey from RiverClan and got caught by ThunderClan, and then apologized to Brambleclaw when Crowpaw started a fight.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 31, 2021 17:46:58 GMT -5
Also lol, I hope that the scene you keep bringing up isn't the one back in ADP? When Bluestar was being borderline insane and planning to attack WindClan based on false accusations? The actual context of that situation is that Fireheart secretly met with Onewhisker, and Onewhisker openly expressed he could get in trouble for it, saying he was sticking his neck out for him. Firestar convinced him to let him talk to Tallstar, and when he did let that happen Tallstar, Deadfoot and Mudclaw are all not happy at the accusations. Fireheart openly admitted he went behind Bluestar's back and thinks that WindClan isn't stealing prey, but it's actually dogs. But Bluestar was gung ho on it being WindClan regardless of what Fireheart said. Fireheart KNEW Bluestar was planning an attack but also didn't reveal that to WindClan either. Tallstar turned down the idea of a "peaceful meeting" at first because he KNEW it wouldn't be peaceful, and that Bluestar would rather rip their throats out. So Fireheart had to convince him further and even involve Ravenpaw as a messenger, only to which Tallstar then did agree. However come the "peaceful meeting" and Bluestar brings a flipping army, but thankfully Tallstar brung his own as insurance for his safety. Tallstar brought his cats knowing that things could have most likely turned nasty, especially since Tallstar did not like Bluestar for the Brokentail incident, and so did many other WC cats holding a grudge over it as well. While Bluestar showed no signs of being peaceful at all until Tallstar talked sense into her. Mudclaw wasn't the only cat ready to fight, Bluestar herself was trigger happy, and so was Darktstripe. Mudclaw springing forward, isn't the same as him launching into a fight and attacking someone. If anything it's the equivalent of being held back in an escalating situation where tensions are high on both sides, and both sides wanted to fight. It wasn't as peaceful as it was supposed to be, and it wasn't just a diplomatic meeting between two leaders. I also hardly see this as anything better for Onewhisker's sake, since he obviously wouldn't want to meet Fireheart in battle, but Tallstar is willing to fight if he has to. Both Onewhisker and Mudclaw are equals at this point, warriors, if this was such a notable infringement on his credentials to be leader one day then why did Tallstar not choose Onewhisker over Mudclaw after Deadfoot passed away literally later in this book? Heck, wasn't Deadfoot keeping his cats in line, like Fireheart was so desperately trying to do, since it's supposed to be a quality a deputy should have?
|
|