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Appledusk
May 29, 2021 17:39:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Aqua on May 29, 2021 17:39:51 GMT -5
Was he right to kick out Mapleshade, leaving her under the bus? I don't really like him that much, and he's probably the last cat I'd defend in MV tbh. I understand he picked his clan over her, but he made a mistake as much as Mapleshade by mating with her, and I don't think it's fair how he got off scott-free in the end... But I blame most of this on rushed, bad writing more than Appledusk himself. This book really should have been a super edition imo...
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Appledusk
May 29, 2021 17:53:50 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Mothdapple on May 29, 2021 17:53:50 GMT -5
He was a complete jerk. He was wrong for what he did to Mapleshade after she was exiled and their kits drowned to try to save his own skin, but I do understand why. He was being put on trial and wanted to stay with RiverClan, so he said what he thought Darkstar would want to hear. It’s a shame he got off pretty much scot-free, but that was Darkstar’s decision. He was wrong for accidentally causing Birchface’s death. Flowerpaw’s was pretty much out of his paws since she ran into the water herself to try to save Birchface despite the fact that she can’t swim. He was also wrong for cheating on his mates.
However, I think he gets way too much hate. I’ve seen so many people say “he deserved to die” or “he deserved to go to the Dark Forest,” which is shameful. “He was a jerk” is not a good reason for going to the DF or dying. If that were the case, SO many other cats would’ve been in the dark forest because a lot of them have done “jerk” things.
People tend to forget that he did love his kits and Mapleshade, but only ditched Maple for the sake of saving his own skin and staying in RiverClan. He shows love to the kits when he meets them for the first time. He also seemed to like Mapleshade quite a lot. Also, he tries to save the kits and saves Mapleshade’s life.
He was wrong to get with Mapleshade, but so was she vice-versa. I do wish he got more of a consequence from Darkstar, but I guess she was right with the fact that the death of his kits was punishment enough.
He wasn’t a nice cat, but some people in the fandom treat him like he’s the worst cat ever. He cheated, accidentally killed a cat, and chose RiverClan over Mapleshade, but that doesn’t warrant death or the Dark Forest. The Dark Forest seems to be strictly for evil cats, with few exceptions which I don’t consider canon.
He’s not 100% bad. He’s quite morally gray, like many characters in MV such as Frecklewish. Give this guy a break, warriors fandom.
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#FF55A3
Name Colour
Apricity
Bravelands is too slept on.
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Post by Apricity on May 29, 2021 17:58:09 GMT -5
I can sorta understand (on the side of if he cared) Appledusk turning against Mapleshade. From his point of view, she did an absolutely stupid thing that got their kits killed. And he had his kits with Reedshine to think about. But what I don't understand is him getting into another relationship before properly breaking up with the one he already had. I agree that he should have got punishment too, if not exile then something else.
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Post by cygna on May 29, 2021 20:51:22 GMT -5
He F****ng sucks.
He’s not innocent and even though people don’t actually deserve to die for cheating I hate cheaters so much I was glad he died.
If I was in Mapleshade’s position I would murder him to.
He literally disrespected his children’s memory by calling them mistakes. I have zero sympathy or respect for him. The fact he made a backup family while he still had one disguised me.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 29, 2021 21:37:32 GMT -5
I think he deserves the hate he gets tbh, and I feel no sympathy for his death either, I suppose that's karma. At the end of the day, he still cheated on Mapleshade and Reedshine. Never cared to bother with learning his kit's names even after they died. Got off scot-free practically despite breaking the code. And whereas Mapleshade lost everything, he still had one of his mates, a spot in his clan, and backup kits on the way. Regardless of the book being rushed or not, it doesn't change that his only real punishment was trying to earn his clan's trust back after throwing Mapleshade under the bus with all the blame. Even if the books were stretched out to an SE, I find it hard to change this situation in a way where it's more "fair" so to speak. I also don't see him as morally gray character. Morally gray characters are characters that intermediate between hero and villain, Appledusk is neither, he's just a gross jerk that strung along two women and saved his own hide. Better examples would be Mudclaw, Leopardstar and Needletail imo.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 29, 2021 21:52:11 GMT -5
I also don't see him as morally gray character. Morally gray characters are characters that intermediate between hero and villain, Appledusk is neither, he's just a gross jerk that strung along two women and saved his own hide. Better examples would be Mudclaw, Leopardstar and Needletail imo. I still believe he can be considered morally gray. Morally gray pretty much means they aren’t a black or white hero or villain, but they are in some sort of middle ground. Basically they’re too horrible to be considered a heroic character but have done too much good or too little bad to be considered a villainous character. Appledusk did some horrible things that make him an unlikable character. He accidentally caused the death of Birchface, which also led to the death of Flowerpaw, he cheated on his mates, and threw Mapleshade under the bus to save his own hide. He was a total jerk, yes, but that’s pretty much it. He also did some good things, which people tend to forget about. In the beginning of the novella, he seemed to actually love Mapleshade and their kits, but he does eventually ditch Mapleshade for his Clan. He also tried saving his kits from the river and also saved Mapleshade herself from drowning too. Not to mention, he dies saving Reedshine’s, and also their unborn kits’, lives. He’s not all bad, but he’s not all good either. He’s in the middle. That’s what I consider to be “morally gray.”
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 29, 2021 22:01:55 GMT -5
I also don't see him as morally gray character. Morally gray characters are characters that intermediate between hero and villain, Appledusk is neither, he's just a gross jerk that strung along two women and saved his own hide. Better examples would be Mudclaw, Leopardstar and Needletail imo. I still believe he can be considered morally gray. Morally gray pretty much means they aren’t a black or white hero or villain, but they are in some sort of middle ground. Basically they’re too horrible to be considered a heroic character but have done too much good or too little bad to be considered a villainous character. Appledusk did some horrible things that make him an unlikable character. He accidentally caused the death of Birchface, which also led to the death of Flowerpaw, he cheated on his mates, and threw Mapleshade under the bus to save his own hide. He was a total jerk, yes, but that’s pretty much it. He also did some good things, which people tend to forget about. In the beginning of the novella, he seemed to actually love Mapleshade and their kits, but he does eventually ditch Mapleshade for his Clan. He also tried saving his kits from the river and also saved Mapleshade herself from drowning too. Not to mention, he dies saving Reedshine’s, and also their unborn kits’, lives. He’s not all bad, but he’s not all good either. He’s in the middle. That’s what I consider to be “morally gray.” Loving someone doesn't make you morally good, or a hero. Any one can do what Appledusk did. You can believe what you like, but I personally disagree.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 29, 2021 22:13:48 GMT -5
I still believe he can be considered morally gray. Morally gray pretty much means they aren’t a black or white hero or villain, but they are in some sort of middle ground. Basically they’re too horrible to be considered a heroic character but have done too much good or too little bad to be considered a villainous character. Appledusk did some horrible things that make him an unlikable character. He accidentally caused the death of Birchface, which also led to the death of Flowerpaw, he cheated on his mates, and threw Mapleshade under the bus to save his own hide. He was a total jerk, yes, but that’s pretty much it. He also did some good things, which people tend to forget about. In the beginning of the novella, he seemed to actually love Mapleshade and their kits, but he does eventually ditch Mapleshade for his Clan. He also tried saving his kits from the river and also saved Mapleshade herself from drowning too. Not to mention, he dies saving Reedshine’s, and also their unborn kits’, lives. He’s not all bad, but he’s not all good either. He’s in the middle. That’s what I consider to be “morally gray.” Loving someone doesn't make you morally good, or a hero. Any one can do what Appledusk did. You can believe what you like, but I personally disagree. That’s not what I mean. What I mean is, if he was truly an evil cat, he likely wouldn’t have cared. Also, it is much more than that. I didn’t say it was just that. I just meant that some people act like he never cared about Mapleshade or their kits. I also mention saving lives, which is considered very heroic... I mean, one of your examples for a morally gray character was Needletail, whose big “heroic” act was dying saving Violetshine’s life. Him saving Mapleshade’s life and dying saving Reedshine and his unborn kits’ life isn’t much different. And it’s fair. You’re entitled to your own opinion, and I’m entitled to mine. He was a jerk and threw Mapleshade under the bus, which was morally bad. But he saved Mapleshade’s life, tried saving their kits, and died saving Reedshine and their unborn kits, which was morally good.
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Post by Aqua on May 29, 2021 22:29:57 GMT -5
Loving someone doesn't make you morally good, or a hero. Any one can do what Appledusk did. You can believe what you like, but I personally disagree. That’s not what I mean. What I mean is, if he was truly an evil cat, he likely wouldn’t have cared. Also, it is much more than that. I didn’t say it was just that. I just meant that some people act like he never cared about Mapleshade or their kits. I also mention saving lives, which is considered very heroic... I mean, one of your examples for a morally gray character was Needletail, whose big “heroic” act was dying saving Violetshine’s life. Him saving Mapleshade’s life and dying saving Reedshine and his unborn kits’ life isn’t much different. And it’s fair. You’re entitled to your own opinion, and I’m entitled to mine. He was a jerk and threw Mapleshade under the bus, which was morally bad. But he saved Mapleshade’s life, tried saving their kits, and died saving Reedshine and their unborn kits, which was morally good. There should be an Appledusk novella imo. We really don't know what's going on in his head, there's literally only less than 15 sentences of him in MV. People either pick sides with him because they like Mapleshade, or people understand him because they know why he chose his clan over Mapleshade. But reality is that there isn't enough information on Appledusk or how he feels about Mapleshade and his kits. I feel like the writers should have put down the aftereffects of how he buried the kits, or if he reacted to them after she left. Maybe they should have made her watch over RiverClan and hid in their territory. I don't know how that would work, but some kind of a reaction would be nice to see from Appledusk.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 29, 2021 22:32:10 GMT -5
Loving someone doesn't make you morally good, or a hero. Any one can do what Appledusk did. You can believe what you like, but I personally disagree. That’s not what I mean. What I mean is, if he was truly an evil cat, he likely wouldn’t have cared. Also, it is much more than that. I didn’t say it was just that. I just meant that some people act like he never cared about Mapleshade or their kits. I also mention saving lives, which is considered very heroic... I mean, one of your examples for a morally gray character was Needletail, whose big “heroic” act was dying saving Violetshine’s life. Him saving Mapleshade’s life and dying saving Reedshine and his unborn kits’ life isn’t much different. And it’s fair. You’re entitled to your own opinion, and I’m entitled to mine. He was a jerk and threw Mapleshade under the bus, which was morally bad. But he saved Mapleshade’s life, tried saving their kits, and died saving Reedshine and their unborn kits, which was morally good. I view Needletail as morally gray not just because of her actions but because of her ideals and beliefs as a character. She believed the clans discriminated against outsiders too much, and wanted to be more open about accepting the way of life when it comes to loners and rogues. Who to her have been more caring than her own birth clan. She's also acknowledges the horrible state ShadowClan was in, and wanted change, even if she went about it a more extreme way. Her saving Violetshine, isn't the only reason why she's morally gray, if anything proves that she actually did value her and see her as family, like a sister. I don't see the same with that with Appledusk. He's decent enough to save a queen just like any warrior should.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 29, 2021 22:39:45 GMT -5
That’s not what I mean. What I mean is, if he was truly an evil cat, he likely wouldn’t have cared. Also, it is much more than that. I didn’t say it was just that. I just meant that some people act like he never cared about Mapleshade or their kits. I also mention saving lives, which is considered very heroic... I mean, one of your examples for a morally gray character was Needletail, whose big “heroic” act was dying saving Violetshine’s life. Him saving Mapleshade’s life and dying saving Reedshine and his unborn kits’ life isn’t much different. And it’s fair. You’re entitled to your own opinion, and I’m entitled to mine. He was a jerk and threw Mapleshade under the bus, which was morally bad. But he saved Mapleshade’s life, tried saving their kits, and died saving Reedshine and their unborn kits, which was morally good. I view Needletail as morally gray not just because of her actions but because of her ideals and beliefs as a character. She believed the clans discriminated against outsiders too much, and wanted to be more open about accepting the way of life when it comes to loners and rogues. Who to her have been more caring than her own birth clan. She's also acknowledges the horrible state ShadowClan was in, and wanted change, even if she went about it a more extreme way. Her saving Violetshine, isn't the only reason why she's morally gray, if anything proves that she actually did value her and see her as family, like a sister. I don't see the same with that with Appledusk. He's decent enough to save a queen just like any warrior should. The issue is that not EVERY warrior would do that. Some cats are just plain selfish and wouldn’t allow themselves to die to save another. It’s a selfless and heroic act. And like Aqua said, we don’t know exactly what was going on through his head. We can only make assumptions. With Needletail for example, we had much more of her so we knew what she was thinking for the most part. Appledusk has quite little screentime, but since he had both good and bad actions, we can assume that he had both good and bad moral beliefs and thoughts as well. We do not know his core values or beliefs, so we cannot assume that they were all bad or all good. But through his actions and words, we might be able to assume that he had both good and bad core values and beliefs. I’d argue that the majority of characters in Warriors are morally gray, minus obvious villains like Tigerstar and Brokenstar, who were just plain evil. But the community has a habit to label certain characters as “good” or “bad” instead of letting there be a middle ground.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 29, 2021 22:55:37 GMT -5
I view Needletail as morally gray not just because of her actions but because of her ideals and beliefs as a character. She believed the clans discriminated against outsiders too much, and wanted to be more open about accepting the way of life when it comes to loners and rogues. Who to her have been more caring than her own birth clan. She's also acknowledges the horrible state ShadowClan was in, and wanted change, even if she went about it a more extreme way. Her saving Violetshine, isn't the only reason why she's morally gray, if anything proves that she actually did value her and see her as family, like a sister. I don't see the same with that with Appledusk. He's decent enough to save a queen just like any warrior should. The issue is that not EVERY warrior would do that. Some cats are just plain selfish and wouldn’t allow themselves to die to save another. It’s a selfless and heroic act. And like Aqua said, we don’t know exactly what was going on through his head. We can only make assumptions. With Needletail for example, we had much more of her so we knew what she was thinking for the most part. Appledusk has quite little screentime, but since he had both good and bad actions, we can assume that he had both good and bad moral beliefs and thoughts as well. We do not know his core values or beliefs, so we cannot assume that they were all bad or all good. But through his actions and words, we might be able to assume that he had both good and bad core values and beliefs. I’d argue that the majority of characters in Warriors are morally gray, minus obvious villains like Tigerstar and Brokenstar, who were just plain evil. But the community has a habit to label certain characters as “good” or “bad” instead of letting there be a middle ground. Just because they wouldn't doesn't mean they shouldn't. The warrior code exists for a reason after all, so I'm not going to give him brownie points for doing the minimum, like how you wouldn't congratulate a fish for swimming. Do I think Appledusk cared about his mates, and kits enough? Sure, but so did characters like Tigerstar. There's plenty of villain characters that show genuine feelings toward characters they care about, but it doesn't mean they're morally gray.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 29, 2021 23:17:22 GMT -5
The issue is that not EVERY warrior would do that. Some cats are just plain selfish and wouldn’t allow themselves to die to save another. It’s a selfless and heroic act. And like Aqua said, we don’t know exactly what was going on through his head. We can only make assumptions. With Needletail for example, we had much more of her so we knew what she was thinking for the most part. Appledusk has quite little screentime, but since he had both good and bad actions, we can assume that he had both good and bad moral beliefs and thoughts as well. We do not know his core values or beliefs, so we cannot assume that they were all bad or all good. But through his actions and words, we might be able to assume that he had both good and bad core values and beliefs. I’d argue that the majority of characters in Warriors are morally gray, minus obvious villains like Tigerstar and Brokenstar, who were just plain evil. But the community has a habit to label certain characters as “good” or “bad” instead of letting there be a middle ground. Just because they wouldn't doesn't mean they shouldn't. The warrior code exists for a reason after all, so I'm not going to give him brownie points for doing the minimum, like how you wouldn't congratulate a fish for swimming. Do I think Appledusk cared about his mates, and kits enough? Sure, but so did characters like Tigerstar. There's plenty of villain characters that show genuine feelings toward characters they care about, but it doesn't mean they're morally gray. Characters such as Tigerstar and Thistleclaw did care about their mates, yes, but they did much worse things that make them more distinct as villains. They did enough bad in their lives that basically made the little bit of somewhat “good?” in their lives practically meaningless. Appledusk was literally just a jerk? He didn’t do absolutely god awful horrible things such as PURPOSELY killing anyone. Birchface and Flowerpaw were just plain accidents. Appledusk was just plain rude and selfish at times, not much else. He did break the code, but honestly I hate that rule. And honestly, if he really was so bad, he would’ve been in the Dark Forest. I hate that I’m defending a guy like him, but people make him to be so much worse than he actually is. Putting your life on the line for someone else’s isn’t really the bare minimum, even if that person is a loved one. It has always been seen as heroic even in the beginning of humanity. Most people treasure their own lives so much that they wouldn’t be so willing to put it on the line for others. It’s not something everyone would do. Even in ancient times, people who would put their lives on the line to save others were considered to be heroes. Saving those you love is more than just “caring.” If he did worse things, then yeah, him saving Mapleshade and Reedshine wouldn’t really matter. But Appledusk was just mean and a cheater. That’s all.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on May 30, 2021 6:15:30 GMT -5
While Appledusk didn't deserve to die, I despise cheaters and the fact that this one would've gotten away with it unscaved and at first went on leading his life while having another mate and a second litter of kits on the way to call his own, makes me furious. He should not have treated Mapleshade so horribly, she was the mother of his first litter, regardless of the fact that they died. I'm still hoping to one day witness a scene with Appledusk and their three kits in StarClan, just to see how they interact with each other.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 30, 2021 12:48:10 GMT -5
Just because they wouldn't doesn't mean they shouldn't. The warrior code exists for a reason after all, so I'm not going to give him brownie points for doing the minimum, like how you wouldn't congratulate a fish for swimming. Do I think Appledusk cared about his mates, and kits enough? Sure, but so did characters like Tigerstar. There's plenty of villain characters that show genuine feelings toward characters they care about, but it doesn't mean they're morally gray. Characters such as Tigerstar and Thistleclaw did care about their mates, yes, but they did much worse things that make them more distinct as villains. They did enough bad in their lives that basically made the little bit of somewhat “good?” in their lives practically meaningless. Appledusk was literally just a jerk? He didn’t do absolutely god awful horrible things such as PURPOSELY killing anyone. Birchface and Flowerpaw were just plain accidents. Appledusk was just plain rude and selfish at times, not much else. He did break the code, but honestly I hate that rule. And honestly, if he really was so bad, he would’ve been in the Dark Forest. I hate that I’m defending a guy like him, but people make him to be so much worse than he actually is. Putting your life on the line for someone else’s isn’t really the bare minimum, even if that person is a loved one. It has always been seen as heroic even in the beginning of humanity. Most people treasure their own lives so much that they wouldn’t be so willing to put it on the line for others. It’s not something everyone would do. Even in ancient times, people who would put their lives on the line to save others were considered to be heroes. Saving those you love is more than just “caring.” If he did worse things, then yeah, him saving Mapleshade and Reedshine wouldn’t really matter. But Appledusk was just mean and a cheater. That’s all. Following the code is the bare minimum. It's something they lived by for generations and it's ingrained in their persons, and putting their lives on the line is a requirement, its literally said when they're getting their ceremonies as well. It's their way of life, and second nature to them. When it comes to humans, not many would be so quick and willing to do such a thing, unless they're trained professionals, humans value their lives much differently than a warrior cat would. Warrior cats are the equivalent of soldiers that are ready to die for their countries, but in their world, being a soldier is normal, it's a right of passage, that every member goes through eventually. Morally gray characters have a level of ambiguity, and Appledusk does not have that. Like you said, he's just a jerk, that was my point, that's what I was trying to say. He's not some morally gray complex character with conflicting ideals. He's just a good aligned character that made jerk decisions, and because of that he still got into StarClan.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 30, 2021 12:58:10 GMT -5
Characters such as Tigerstar and Thistleclaw did care about their mates, yes, but they did much worse things that make them more distinct as villains. They did enough bad in their lives that basically made the little bit of somewhat “good?” in their lives practically meaningless. Appledusk was literally just a jerk? He didn’t do absolutely god awful horrible things such as PURPOSELY killing anyone. Birchface and Flowerpaw were just plain accidents. Appledusk was just plain rude and selfish at times, not much else. He did break the code, but honestly I hate that rule. And honestly, if he really was so bad, he would’ve been in the Dark Forest. I hate that I’m defending a guy like him, but people make him to be so much worse than he actually is. Putting your life on the line for someone else’s isn’t really the bare minimum, even if that person is a loved one. It has always been seen as heroic even in the beginning of humanity. Most people treasure their own lives so much that they wouldn’t be so willing to put it on the line for others. It’s not something everyone would do. Even in ancient times, people who would put their lives on the line to save others were considered to be heroes. Saving those you love is more than just “caring.” If he did worse things, then yeah, him saving Mapleshade and Reedshine wouldn’t really matter. But Appledusk was just mean and a cheater. That’s all. Following the code is the bare minimum. It's something they lived by for generations and it's ingrained in their persons, and putting their lives on the line is a requirement, its literally said when they're getting their ceremonies as well. It's their way of life, and second nature to them. When it comes to humans, not many would be so quick and willing to do such a thing, unless they're trained professionals, humans value their lives much differently than a warrior cat would. Warrior cats are the equivalent of soldiers that are ready to die for their countries, but in their world, being a soldier is normal, it's a right of passage, that every member goes through eventually. Morally gray characters have a level of ambiguity, and Appledusk does not have that. Like you said, he's just a jerk, that was my point, that's what I was trying to say. He's not some morally gray complex character with conflicting ideals. He's just a good aligned character that made jerk decisions, and because of that he still got into StarClan. I wouldn’t call it a requirement, but an expectation. Clan cats are expected to act in a certain way, but of course not all of them do. And that’s literally the definition of morally gray. They do not have to have an extremely high level of ambiguity, although I’d argue Appledusk might if we had his own perspective. Morally gray is literally just the middle ground between good and evil, which Appledusk falls right under. You can’t argue that he’s evil, but you can’t argue that he’s good either. Like you said, he was a good aligned character who made bad and jerk decisions, which is why he’s neither good or bad morally. He’s just a rude, somewhat selfish cat that made some of the wrong decisions in his life, but also made some good and right decisions. Morally gray doesn’t need a ton of ambiguity. As long as they are not a clearly good or clearly bad character, they can fall under the morally gray umbrella. He could easily have complex ideals that we just don’t know about because we never see what goes on inside his head and he only has little screentime in one small novella. And the perspective we see is Mapleshade’s, which would clearly try to make Appledusk seem like a villain in a way. Through his own actions and words, we might be able to assume he had complex ideals that we just didn’t know about.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 30, 2021 13:11:20 GMT -5
Following the code is the bare minimum. It's something they lived by for generations and it's ingrained in their persons, and putting their lives on the line is a requirement, its literally said when they're getting their ceremonies as well. It's their way of life, and second nature to them. When it comes to humans, not many would be so quick and willing to do such a thing, unless they're trained professionals, humans value their lives much differently than a warrior cat would. Warrior cats are the equivalent of soldiers that are ready to die for their countries, but in their world, being a soldier is normal, it's a right of passage, that every member goes through eventually. Morally gray characters have a level of ambiguity, and Appledusk does not have that. Like you said, he's just a jerk, that was my point, that's what I was trying to say. He's not some morally gray complex character with conflicting ideals. He's just a good aligned character that made jerk decisions, and because of that he still got into StarClan. I wouldn’t call it a requirement, but an expectation. Clan cats are expected to act in a certain way, but of course not all of them do. And that’s literally the definition of morally gray. They do not have to have an extremely high level of ambiguity, although I’d argue Appledusk might if we had his own perspective. Morally gray is literally just the middle ground between good and evil, which Appledusk falls right under. You can’t argue that he’s evil, but you can’t argue that he’s good either. Like you said, he was a good aligned character who made bad and jerk decisions, which is why he’s neither good or bad morally. He’s just a rude, somewhat selfish cat that made some of the wrong decisions in his life, but also made some good and right decisions. Morally gray doesn’t need a ton of ambiguity. As long as they are not a clearly good or clearly bad character, they can fall under the morally gray umbrella. He could easily have complex ideals that we just don’t know about because we never see what goes on inside his head and he only has little screentime in one small novella. And the perspective we see is Mapleshade’s, which would clearly try to make Appledusk seem like a villain in a way. Through his own actions and words, we might be able to assume he had complex ideals that we just didn’t know about. Agree to disagree. I fail to see how he's any where near being morally gray or complex. Nor does he get any points from me for doing the bare minimum which is the code. Unless he gets any kind of continuous narrative that actually shows his internal conflicts and other actions, at the end of the day he was still a cowardly cheater that got a free pass.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 30, 2021 14:07:26 GMT -5
I wouldn’t call it a requirement, but an expectation. Clan cats are expected to act in a certain way, but of course not all of them do. And that’s literally the definition of morally gray. They do not have to have an extremely high level of ambiguity, although I’d argue Appledusk might if we had his own perspective. Morally gray is literally just the middle ground between good and evil, which Appledusk falls right under. You can’t argue that he’s evil, but you can’t argue that he’s good either. Like you said, he was a good aligned character who made bad and jerk decisions, which is why he’s neither good or bad morally. He’s just a rude, somewhat selfish cat that made some of the wrong decisions in his life, but also made some good and right decisions. Morally gray doesn’t need a ton of ambiguity. As long as they are not a clearly good or clearly bad character, they can fall under the morally gray umbrella. He could easily have complex ideals that we just don’t know about because we never see what goes on inside his head and he only has little screentime in one small novella. And the perspective we see is Mapleshade’s, which would clearly try to make Appledusk seem like a villain in a way. Through his own actions and words, we might be able to assume he had complex ideals that we just didn’t know about. Agree to disagree. I fail to see how he's any where near being morally gray or complex. Nor does he get any points from me for doing the bare minimum which is the code. Unless he gets any kind of continuous narrative that actually shows his internal conflicts and other actions, at the end of the day he was still a cowardly cheater that got a free pass. Absolutely, agree to disagree. I genuinely believe we don’t have enough of him to have that much of a judgement. Yet again, another reason why I believe MV should’ve been a SE. We can really only make assumptions about his thought processes and his beliefs. But, I do believe he is not completely as horrible as some people make him out to be. Some people act like he caused Mapleshade to go evil himself, blaming him and a few others for it. Some people act like he never even cared for Maple or Reed, when he seems to truly care about them both despite cheating and throwing Maple under the bus to save his own hide in RiverClan. He loved his kits and was clearly angry when he found out they were in the river and had drowned. People act like he wanted to fight Mapleshade or hurt her physically, but he never did. He’s definitely a horrible cat, but he’s not evil by all means. He was rude and selfish, but that’s it. He has some good ideals (along with some bad), but that doesn’t make him a good cat either. If he was truly as horrible as some make him out to be, he would’ve gone to the Dark Forest along with Maple. We just do not have enough to completely demonize the guy. Yes he was horrible, but he did good as well. Nothing he did warrented death or the Dark Forest. But he should’ve been punished rightfully for breaking the warrior code.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on May 30, 2021 19:56:22 GMT -5
Don't like him at all. Cheating is gross and I find it especially gross how he didn't even seem to have an ounce of sympathy for *his dead children* or for Mapleshade.
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