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Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 24, 2021 20:12:34 GMT -5
On the surface, both Fireheart and Squirrelflight went behind their leaders backs and tried to prevent a war, but just because two cats do similar things doesn't necessarily mean they're comparable. Do you think Squirrelflight going behind Bramblestar's back and trying to prevent a war was no different than what Fireheart did back when he was deputy or not?
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Post by Rainsplash on May 24, 2021 20:36:54 GMT -5
I voted Yes, but it's a bit conflicting. Bluestar was almost insane and the decision she made for the battle with WindClan was obnoxious. But Bramblestar's take on the Sisters trouble was made after a consideration of a lot of things like ShadowClan's pressure, SkyClan, etc. Eh, I don't know.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 24, 2021 21:54:02 GMT -5
difference is, i feel like firestar was selfless, whereas squirrelflight was selfish. he was no where near as self centered or self righteous as squirrelflight turned out to be.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 24, 2021 21:55:46 GMT -5
Yep. They both rush head first into things based on what they think is easy
I also don't know how people can call Squirrel selfish. If she was really selfish, letting the clans do what they wanted to the sisters probably would have been more beneficial for her in the long run but she thought she was doing the right thing, even at risk of putting her relationship in harms way
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 24, 2021 22:18:23 GMT -5
Yep. They both rush head first into things based on what they think is easy I also don't know how people can call Squirrel selfish. If she was really selfish, letting the clans do what they wanted to the sisters probably would have been more beneficial for her in the long run but she thought she was doing the right thing, even at risk of putting her relationship in harms way she's selfish in the sense she wants to do things her way because she thinks she's right and no one else's way ever will be. she was selfish in wanting to be right about the sisters and did selfish things in the process. and in TBC, she was selfish in handling the imposter too. it's always about her needs and not the bigger picture.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 22:28:32 GMT -5
The way the books seem to me is that Firestar was doing it because it was best for his clan, but he didn't necessarily think he was in the right, whereas Squirrelflight is all haughty about it, and the books ALWAYS make her in the right which adds another layer of irritation.
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Post by silentbreeze on May 25, 2021 0:19:22 GMT -5
I think they're comparable in the sense that they both want to do the right thing and avoid bloodshed.
In Fireheart's case, Bluestar was on the verge of insanity, and was acting irrationally, and it's completely understandable that he doesn't want his clan to fight in a senseless war and potentially cause death, especially with Tigerstar and Leopardstar already being looming threats.
Squirrelflight also didn't want to fight a battle that could be completely avoided if the clans were more patient with The Sisters. Though on another hand, they did take a clan leader and deputy hostage, and I can see why the clans would be hostile with them for that, but then again I don't blame the Sisters for being so aggressive towards the clans either, especially since they had a heavily expecting queen that was their leader nonetheless, it's only natural. The whole matter is just so controversial, but in my opinion I think Squirrelflight was trying to act in everyone’s best interests rather than from a place of selfishness.
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Post by Brindlefern on May 25, 2021 1:42:59 GMT -5
Yep. They both rush head first into things based on what they think is easy I also don't know how people can call Squirrel selfish. If she was really selfish, letting the clans do what they wanted to the sisters probably would have been more beneficial for her in the long run but she thought she was doing the right thing, even at risk of putting her relationship in harms way This, they are definitely comparable in a way, especially regarding the whole "Going behind their leaders' backs to stop a war" thing, regardless of the circumstances around it. And even if Squirrelflight's reason for doing it is "selfish" (I HEAVILY disagree but ya know...), I really don't see why that is a bad thing? Characters should be allowed to be selfish and do things for selfish reasons. It is a flaw and a realistic one, and yet she and others are thrown into the dirt for it. I don't think it was selfish, since she really had nothing to gain out of stopping a needless battle, it was just the right thing to do. She was going by her gut, just like Firestar, they BOTH knew that needless battles are not the Warrior way to go and thus went ends to stop it even if it got them in trouble by their higher ups and the like. That's not selfish, that's simply doing what they personally believe is right by their own morals, and it's not like their bad morals either. Firestar wanted to prevent bloodshed and potential death under the lead of Bluestar who had in the nicest way to describe it "lost her marbles" by that point, especially when they had other threats to worry about looming over them. Squirrelflight wanted to prevent bloodshed and potential death and knew a Queen was in risk if they fought, when she knew that would mean kits lives were on the line and as a Warrior she is protective of them by default of the code and thus tried to stop things before they ended up the way they did in canon (Partially at least, imagine how harrowing it'd be if they had murdered not only a Queen but ALSO newly born kits, since they came so close to doing so? So much for protecting kits despite everything, those cats almost became indirect baby murderers). Either way, they both wanted to keep cats, their own and others, from getting hurt.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 25, 2021 3:05:55 GMT -5
Yep. They both rush head first into things based on what they think is easy I also don't know how people can call Squirrel selfish. If she was really selfish, letting the clans do what they wanted to the sisters probably would have been more beneficial for her in the long run but she thought she was doing the right thing, even at risk of putting her relationship in harms way Squirrelflight has a ton of flaws, but I don't see how she's selfish either. If anything, I think she's too selfless at times. In fact, the entire plot of SqH may not have even happened if she hadn't tried to reach a compromise with the leaders when they were arguing over land. I think it'd be more accurate to call Squirrelflight prideful and even a bit reckless since she was so determined to prove Bramblestar wrong, but even then, it was still based on helping SkyClan.
After being captured, she doesn't try fighting back specifically because Moonlight is pregnant and doesn't want unborn kits to get hurt. After ThunderClan and SkyClan come to rescue them, Squirrelflight immediately tries to defuse the situation. Just a bit of a side note here, but at the next Gathering, Leafstar even tells the other Clans that she's willing to wait and that the decision to move isn't final, but no one listens to her. And when discussing whether or not to wait until Moonlight's kits are born, pretty much everyone agrees that the Sisters should be chased out as soon as possible while Moonlight herself refuses to leave.
Squirrelflight was clearly trying to avoid as much conflict as possible. Had Moonlight not been pregnant, she likely would've treated the Sisters as just another group of rogues. Squirrelflight's motives were the exact opposite of selfish (now, how she went about it is a different story).
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on May 25, 2021 6:07:00 GMT -5
Like father, like daughter.
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Aroace
#ffa100
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on May 25, 2021 10:08:41 GMT -5
I think that Firestar and Squirrelflight had good intentions when going behind their respective leaders backs and that they both acted selfless instead of selfish by doing this. What would be different about their situations is the fact that Bluestar was out of her mind while Bramblestar was just too cowardly and afraid of Tigerstar II in order to properly think things through.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 25, 2021 10:50:43 GMT -5
difference is, i feel like firestar was selfless, whereas squirrelflight was selfish. he was no where near as self centered or self righteous as squirrelflight turned out to be. How eaxactly is she being selfish, though. To be selfish is to only care for one's needs whitout anyone else's consideration. Squirrelflight didin't do it just for herself. She actively did it to protect the Sister's culture and even asked for Bramblestar's input in the subject she went behind his back.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 25, 2021 11:22:22 GMT -5
The action is not different but the surrounding context differs slightly in ways that are important. For instance, the pressure Squirrelflight placed on poor Sparkpelt was not something Fireheart did.
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Post by Aqua on May 25, 2021 11:44:44 GMT -5
difference is, i feel like firestar was selfless, whereas squirrelflight was selfish. he was no where near as self centered or self righteous as squirrelflight turned out to be. How eaxactly is she being selfish, though. To be selfish is to only care for one's needs whitout anyone else's consideration. Squirrelflight didin't do it just for herself. She actively did it to protect the Sister's culture and even asked for Bramblestar's input in the subject she went behind his back. Well, I understand why Lady thinks Squirrelflight is selfish. Squirrelflight puts her entire Clan in danger by trying to protect the Sisters without her leader's permission. Mate or not, but a clan deputy disagreeing with the leader causes a lot of tension in the clan. This was proven when Bluestar lost faith in Fireheart after he went behind her back to stop a WindClan battle that she wanted to cause. It caused a lot of mental damage for Bluestar, which was inflicted onto other cats in her clan. He took a risk to betray her trust and he knew it - Squirrelflight wasn't even considering the consequences of her actions when she went behind Bramblestar's back. I know she was trying to do the right thing, but she didn't think ahead of time how this problem to try to help the Sisters could affect her whole clan, and we all know how the other Clans treat ThunderClan when it comes to protecting prisoners. Remember how Bluestar sheltered Brokenstar? No one was happy about it, and she was risking her entire Clan by keeping a tryant safe. I'm not defending what Bramblestar did to Sunrise, I don't like him for that exact reason myself, but.. I can't exactly blame him either. Squirrelflight kept going back and forth to the Sisters without protection, and with the Clans' previous problems with the rogues, I can't really blame them for being hostile and wanting the Sisters out so quickly. She was putting many cats in danger for "doing the right thing". I'm not really on anyone's side in SqH, but I understand Lady when Squirrelflight is selfish. Fireheart at least tried to think ahead of time for his consequences about his own actions, and he knew the risk and how his betrayal would affect Bluestar. Squirrelflight was impulsive about this and constantly argued with Bramblestar, continuing to do things behind his back even after warning her how these actions would affect her clan because of their tension. This is why people think Squirrelflight acts selfish about things. She's very impulsive and doesn't think twice about the danger that could inflicte on her Clanmates by trying to protect the Sisters all the clans don't seem to respect. And this is coming from someone who actually likes the Sisters.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 25, 2021 12:00:04 GMT -5
How eaxactly is she being selfish, though. To be selfish is to only care for one's needs whitout anyone else's consideration. Squirrelflight didin't do it just for herself. She actively did it to protect the Sister's culture and even asked for Bramblestar's input in the subject she went behind his back. Well, I understand why Lady thinks Squirrelflight is selfish. Squirrelflight puts her entire Clan in danger by trying to protect the Sisters without her leader's permission. That's not being selfish, it's called having different priorities. There's a difference. If she were being selfish, then she'd at least have some sort of hidden agenda and she very clearly didn't.
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Post by Aqua on May 25, 2021 12:06:21 GMT -5
Well, I understand why Lady thinks Squirrelflight is selfish. Squirrelflight puts her entire Clan in danger by trying to protect the Sisters without her leader's permission. That's not being selfish, it's called having different priorities. There's a difference. If she were being selfish, then she'd at least have some sort of hidden agenda and she very clearly didn't. My point still stands. Squirrelflight didn't think twice about how her own actions could put her clan in danger by protection the Sisters. The Clans had to deal with vicious rogues recently so I can't really blame them for acting hostile toward the Sisters. I don't agree with how the clans treated the Sisters and the pregnant queen, but I understand both sides and why the clans were hostile toward Squirrelflight. She really doesn't have the right to get involved into something like this. Bramblestar made it clear and said no, but she kept going behind his back and these actions were putting a lot of hostility and distrust between her and her Clanmates. Which really isn't good for a clan deputy. They're supposed to trust her and here she is doing all these things behind their backs.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 25, 2021 13:19:58 GMT -5
difference is, i feel like firestar was selfless, whereas squirrelflight was selfish. he was no where near as self centered or self righteous as squirrelflight turned out to be. How eaxactly is she being selfish, though. To be selfish is to only care for one's needs whitout anyone else's consideration. Squirrelflight didin't do it just for herself. She actively did it to protect the Sister's culture and even asked for Bramblestar's input in the subject she went behind his back. the way she goes about things. she gets offended whenever people say no to her and say her way is wrong for once. she always thinks her way is right and no one else should have a say because they're wrong. firestar is nowhere near this self centered and selfish about his plans and ideas. the books portray her as so self righteous imo. the books never make her out to be wrong for long. her "suffering" is all superficial.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 25, 2021 13:38:35 GMT -5
I agree with ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆Squirrelflight undermined her leader in front of the other clan leaders instead of talking about something that important in private earlier or later. She then proceeds to go behind Bramblestar's back to cross into SkyClan territory and speak with Leafstar, something she had no call to do in the first place. She took Leafstar through ThunderClan territory and then got caught by her own daughter, using her position as both deputy and her mother to ask her to stay quiet about it. Even Leafstar wasn't approving of her disobedient behavior, especially because of her position. Not only did she and Leafstar later get captured and held against their will, but the Sisters were not planning to let them go any time soon, and had no problems hurting Leafstar for trying to escape. Luckily Bramble was able to find and save them, but it doesn't change how utterly embarrassing and out-of-line Squirrelflight's behavior was. Bramblestar isn't like Bluestar, he's perfectly sane and level-headed enough for them to have a normal conversation, and not suffering from bouts of paranoia. There's no excuse for Squirrelflight to do except for the fact that SHE wanted to be right, and it made her out to be incredibly selfish. It doesn't stop there either because even in TBC, her actions put even more cats lives at stake. It's because of her that Bristlefrost had to go get cats to stop them from killing the imposter during the assassination attempt, because of her promise with Squirrelflight good cats died. It's also because of her that the Imposter's punishment was dragged out so long that he had enough time to eventually escape, which eventually did come back to bite her on the foot. But irony about that is that she was willing to betray her entire clan, and the other four clans, because she was literally racing to go set the imposter free. An abusive tyrannical murderer that caused many cats pain...just because he wore her mate's skin. Cats wanted justice, but she was willing to throw any of that under the water for one cats. She would rather have many more be sacrificed and suffer because of one cat. I may not care for Squirrelflight, and even like Bramblestar, but because she insistently prolonged everything, it made her out to be selfish. Especially when even his own children were ready to do what was necessary before it got worse. She's proven enough that she's not suitable for a position with power, as a deputy or a leader. She's not only betrayed Bramblestar as his deputy, but also his mate, and broke the trust between him, that he simply asked from her, many many times. Both her and Fireheart may have been making choices because they thought they were right, but that doesn't mean it is right. They just thought it was.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 25, 2021 14:02:38 GMT -5
How eaxactly is she being selfish, though. To be selfish is to only care for one's needs whitout anyone else's consideration. Squirrelflight didin't do it just for herself. She actively did it to protect the Sister's culture and even asked for Bramblestar's input in the subject she went behind his back. the way she goes about things. she gets offended whenever people say no to her and say her way is wrong for once. she always thinks her way is right and no one else should have a say because they're wrong. firestar is nowhere near this self centered and selfish about his plans and ideas. the books portray her as so self righteous imo. the books never make her out to be wrong for long. her "suffering" is all superficial. In my opinion, this seems like her being self-righteous, reckless and stubborn, but not really selfish. In most of the times she acts like she isin't wrong or that she's doing something right, even if it isin't, she's either doing it in a situation that involves helping or giving a benefit for someone else. It also involves her making decisions whitout thinking. (How she was in TBC with getting Bramblestar's body back, her protecting Leafpool, the Sisters, etc) Not saying she's an innocent angel, but i don't think she's exactly selfish, but that she makes really bad decisions trying to help someone else or thinking that this and that will benefit the Clan. (Again, she's self-righteous) Keep in mind i don't count when she was an apprentice, she was young, bratty, innmature, and still not grown up, so i tend to give her a free pass.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 25, 2021 14:09:56 GMT -5
And as for general thoughts, both situations and characters are different. Squirrelflight's situation is a lot more complex and different. Fireheart was handling something entirely different from a group of cats invading his territory, attacking the Clans, and settling on their own territory.
But i think one thing they have in common is that they both did it with good intentions.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 25, 2021 14:22:55 GMT -5
🔥Firestar🔥eh, we can agree to disagree. i dont think squirrel matured all that much from when she was an apprentice. as an apprentice, she was bossy and wanted to be right above everyone else, and in my opinion, she still is this way, but the books make people believe she's mature just because she's older which...i dont think so.
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Asexual
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on May 25, 2021 17:18:04 GMT -5
Yes, the way Fireheart and Squirrelflight thinks and acts are quite similar to each other. They're not completely the same, but just similar.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 25, 2021 19:15:54 GMT -5
the way she goes about things. she gets offended whenever people say no to her and say her way is wrong for once. she always thinks her way is right and no one else should have a say because they're wrong. firestar is nowhere near this self centered and selfish about his plans and ideas. the books portray her as so self righteous imo. the books never make her out to be wrong for long. her "suffering" is all superficial. In my opinion, this seems like her being self-righteous, reckless and stubborn, but not really selfish. In most of the times she acts like she isin't wrong or that she's doing something right, even if it isin't, she's either doing it in a situation that involves helping or giving a benefit for someone else. It also involves her making decisions whitout thinking. (How she was in TBC with getting Bramblestar's body back, her protecting Leafpool, the Sisters, etc) Not saying she's an innocent angel, but i don't think she's exactly selfish, but that she makes really bad decisions trying to help someone else or thinking that this and that will benefit the Clan. (Again, she's self-righteous) Keep in mind i don't count when she was an apprentice, she was young, bratty, innmature, and still not grown up, so i tend to give her a free pass. I agree. Her intentions are selfless. She's genuinely trying to help people. Is she reckless? Yeah. Stubborn? Yeah. Self-righteous? A bit. But her sacrifices are always for other cats and they almost never benefit her.
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Post by shummy on May 26, 2021 15:25:54 GMT -5
They are similar to a T, only difference being gender and circumstances of birth (fire's arc revolved around being born a kittypet, squilf was born w/ kittypet blood but i dont remember it being a huge thing for her?), the former not being relevant to the convo. Squilf is literally one of the most selfless characters in the series, constantly putting the needs of those before her own. Her sister (albeit after some gaslighting by yellowfang), her kits, her clan, and more. Calling her selfish doesn't quite make sense to me, as nearly everything she's done has been for the sake of others. some may say that lying about the three was selfish, but may I remind you that starclan themselves came down from the heavens and pressured both she and leafpool into keeping the secret. Firestar is the same as well! I actually find it more reasonable for ppl to dislike firestar more than squilf, as he never revealed the dirt he had on tigerstar because of his own will or divine intervention. tdlr, they completely comparable, but squilf gets more hate. probably due to the bramblesquirrel drama, or her being "annoying" as a literal child, lol
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