#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 20, 2021 23:05:12 GMT -5
I was thinking about this line from TaS:
And it got me wondering, who do you think was right: Stonewing or Rowanstar? Not just in this specific instance either, but for the series in general. Obviously everyone is in charge of their own actions, but should the leader hold at least some responsibility over how an apprentice acts or is it all on the mentor to teach them how to behave?
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Post by Jaysnow on May 20, 2021 23:08:46 GMT -5
I think they're actually both right. Rowanstar and the apprentices' mentors all should have done a better job at keeping the younger cats in line.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 20, 2021 23:12:19 GMT -5
Both, honestly. While a leader is responsible for all the Warriors, they can’t possibly manage every single apprentice, or else why would mentors be needed in the first place? People say he never punished the apprentices, but I’m almost positive he tried to, and they just still kept being brats or just ignored him. I just find it impossible for him to control every cat without having to resort to violence or fear when the mentors clearly weren’t doing all that much either besides gossiping and wanting Shadowclan to be feared like tyrants again. Yes, Rowanstar holds partial blame in this situation, but nobody is holding the Warriors and Apprentices accountable for their own idiotic choices and for them never being satisfied with anything he tries. It’s utterly exhausting. Leaders are responsible for their clan but mentors need to be responsible for their apprentices without having to expect the leader to do it for them 24/7.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 20, 2021 23:25:30 GMT -5
I just find it impossible for him to control every cat without having to resort to violence or fear when the mentors clearly weren’t doing all that much either besides gossiping and wanting Shadowclan to be feared like tyrants again. To add onto this, we also have this scene: I just feel like no one doing anything about this is a bit telling.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 20, 2021 23:26:09 GMT -5
i think it falls a little more heavily on the mentors. at the end of the day, mentors are the primary and immediate authority figure for their apprentices, and the ones who oversee their day-to-day behavior. they are in the most ready position to enact discipline. rowanstar should have been paying attention to the general disobedience, but it's not his job to be micromanaging them all.
honestly, if he did try that, i wouldn't be surprised if their mentors would be offended that their authority had been usurped.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on May 21, 2021 8:51:14 GMT -5
I agree with Saint Ambrosef. Although it's both their responsibilities, it should rely more on the mentors.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on May 21, 2021 9:05:32 GMT -5
I think it's both as well - like Saint Ambrosef said, the mentors are the closest and immediate authority figure for the apprentices, and since they're paired one-to-one, each mentor is in the best position to discipline their own apprentice. And then if the situation (or the apprentice) is out of control, or it was a serious disobedience, then they should go to the Clan leader. Kind of like in a school situation where the teacher can deal with minor infractions themselves, and brings superiors into the loop for more severe infractions.
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on May 21, 2021 9:09:37 GMT -5
There's this in Thunder And Shadow:
"Onestar behaved badly and the other Clans let him. We are not like them. We don't want to be like them."
— Mistcloud refusing to go to the Gathering in Thunder and Shadow, page 343
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 11:38:25 GMT -5
Both, however, mentors are the direct authority but not the highest, leaders hold responsibility over all cats in their clans. At the same time, considering the context of the quote above, it's obvious that Warriors have been coming to Rowanstar about their concerns but he's been either ignoring them or glossing it over. Rowanstar himself admits to being aware the apprentices were acting out but doing nothing...did he ever consider addressing them himself? Or maybe speaking with his warriors when they expressed concern? Troubled youth aren't going to improve if you just call them brats, treat them like they're dumb, and just mindlessly punish them. Reaching out to them better, both leaders and mentors, should have happened instead.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on May 21, 2021 12:09:25 GMT -5
Both, however, mentors are the direct authority but not the highest, leaders hold responsibility over all cats in their clans. At the same time, considering the context of the quote above, it's obvious that Warriors have been coming to Rowanstar about their concerns but he's been either ignoring them or glossing it over. Rowanstar himself admits to being aware the apprentices were acting out but doing nothing...did he ever consider addressing them himself? Or maybe speaking with his warriors when they expressed concern? Troubled youth aren't going to improve if you just call them brats, treat them like they're dumb, and just mindlessly punish them. Reaching out to them better, both leaders and mentors, should have happened instead. True, that's a good point. While I think it's more up to the mentors to keep their apprentices in check, if the apprentice persists in their behavior and doesn't listen, it ought to be taken to the leader because that's where the ultimate responsibility lies. And the leader should take the mentor's concerns seriously and deal with the apprentice themselves if the mentor is having trouble.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 21, 2021 12:14:01 GMT -5
I think the fault is more on the warriors than anything else. From what we see of Rowanstar, he at least attempts to maintain some discipline. The pathetic display where no warrior interfered in a squabble over food and some(hello Scorchfur!) even encouraged it is far more damning and it is in a scene where Rowanstar is not present. If the warriors don't even make an effort, then I think the problem is more them than Rowanstar. He can give all the orders he likes, but if the warriors don't want to follow them there's not much he can really do.
We know for a fact that he's considered stern and Needletail expresses resentment about dealing with him, which to me implies that unlike his clanmates, he at least is putting forth effort into handling the situation. More than can be said for the rest of Shadowclan's warriors in that period
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 21, 2021 15:46:46 GMT -5
I would say Rowanstar. He's right. The warriors and queens are supposed to teach the kits respect for the warrior code, but instead, they fill them with tales of being feared and don't respect their leader.
And then they surprise pikachu face when their apprentices are trash.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 21, 2021 15:48:59 GMT -5
I just find it impossible for him to control every cat without having to resort to violence or fear when the mentors clearly weren’t doing all that much either besides gossiping and wanting Shadowclan to be feared like tyrants again. To add onto this, we also have this scene: I just feel like no one doing anything about this is a bit telling. It's almost like there's a cultural problem in Shadowclan that makes them a big mess just waiting for rebellion. Fear and violence > Peace and respect
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on May 21, 2021 17:18:04 GMT -5
I agree that the blame falls on the apprentice's mentors. They are the closest, most direct authority towards the apprentices. If the apprentices are behaving badly, the teaching skills of the mentors should be called into question. At the end of the day, Rowanstar is not responsible for each apprentice- he has more important things to do than make sure they are behaving. That responsibility falls solely on the mentors. However, when the apprentice's behavior started to get really out of hand, I think Rowanstar should have staged an intervention out of desperate measure.
Honestly, I feel like both parties hold fault for not being able to control the apprentices.
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