#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Rowanstar
May 19, 2021 20:42:19 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 19, 2021 20:42:19 GMT -5
Do you think he was a weak leader or do you think the books have been unfair to him?
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Post by Aqua on May 19, 2021 20:47:19 GMT -5
Both. Rowanstar had potential to be a good leader, and a strong deputy for ThunderClan. It's obvious the books trashed his character to make Tigerheart look good, but at the same time, this was also Rowanstar's fault for being a terrible leader. He refused to listen to his warriors who were warning him about the apprentices, didn't dicipline them enough, and he always put his pride over his clan. He's a selfish leader at best. He made it clear that he didn't care about Violetshine either, and only seemed to care about her because they're part of the prophecy. If Rowanstar actually listened to his warriors, things might not have fallen out the way they did. He should have accepted ThunderClan's help when they offered it. Even BLACKSTAR appreciated their help now and then; Rowanstar almost never did because of his pride. Littlecloud died in an unhealthy den because he couldn't control his warriors better to take care of him enough. He's trash.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 19, 2021 21:15:09 GMT -5
Both. Like Aqua said, though way less harsh and without deeming him as trash because he genuinely was not that bad of a cat or leader figure at all before his character was butchered for his awful son. It’s honestly what made me lose interest in the series, how they did Rowanstar dirty. Honestly he was too good a cat for Shadowclan and actually wanted to talk to the other clans rather than start fights and wars just to act like rouges and bring fear to everyone. Honestly I’m so pissed because he really could have been a refreshing leader had the arc focused on him regaining his clan rather than on Tigerheart. I honestly thought he tried his best and I kind of hate how alot of the fandom pins all of the blame on him and him alone for Shadowclan’a downfall. He died protecting the kits of a cat who betrayed him and was killed by his own granddaughter. That’s a courageous and good cat, and he still loved all the cats who treated him like shit. He’s way more forgiving than I could be. Could he have been a better leader? Yes. Did he deserve the crap he got in the books? Hell no.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on May 19, 2021 21:19:02 GMT -5
I also think it's both. For the 'weak leader' argument, it seems like he heavily valued his pride, often over reason, which lead him to refuse help when it was clear he needed it, which is bad. Also, he didn't punish the apprentices for breaking rules, and when he was approached by their mentors he didn't seem to have listened to them which could have lead them to believe that the rules didn't matter, which also lead to him not being able to control them and them losing any respect they might have had for him in the first place. It's good that he acknowledged this, but it was way too late by then.
However, he did get the short end of the stick sometimes. I don't think the writers deliberately wrote his entire downfall just to trash him and raise Tigerstar up as like a perfect figure, but there was definitely elements of that because a second, non-evil Tigerstar is a good idea in theory, and I guess they wanted that, but they had to get rid of a new leader with (probably) nine lives first so they couldn't just say "he died of greencough", hence stuff happening. Anyway, I think some of the circumstances he was put in were a lose-lose situation in a way, for example when Darktail and some of his rogues asked to join ShadowClan and brought prey. He turned them down in the book, so the apprentices left. If he had let them join, they would have done what they did to SkyClan.
So I'd say he had many flaws as a leader, but the circumstances were also unfair to him. I also think he did what he thought was best for his Clan, though unfortunately what he thought was best wasn't always what actually was best. It's hard to tell what kind of leader he would have been if all the Darktail stuff hadn't happened. He definitely didn't deserve everything that happened to him though.
(that turned out way longer than I thought it would be)
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 19, 2021 22:24:01 GMT -5
I guess both, but I mainly think he was screwed over in favor of Tigerstar.
If he had been leader of ANY other clan, I bet he would have been fine.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 19, 2021 23:25:25 GMT -5
i hate him. i also hate tawnypelt for pathetically defending him even if it meant violence against a clanmate for speaking out truths. he's just all around bad imo and i will not take back what i said. both he and tawnypelt suck.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 20, 2021 4:26:52 GMT -5
Personally, I've never been a fan of him. His character was horribly inconsistent, and the fact that he and Tawny only got together because the Erins kept forgetting his gender, baffles me. He also seems to only become deputy due to association with Tawnypelt tbh, just like how Crowfrost became deputy later while he was also Dawnpelt's mate. I feel like ShadowClan could do much better with these choices tbh, like add some variety for once.
That aside, I want to say both as well. He was both a weak leader and the books weren't exactly fair to him. Weak because of how he handled situations. He was too prideful and stubborn to accept help, ungrateful when he did get help, and then selfish when it came to other things like the prophecy. The dude was threatening war over Violetshine because he wanted a piece of that prophecy glory cake, and never really thought about how messed up it is to just separate her from her sister. Even when he had Violet in ShadowClan she felt horribly isolated. The situation with Needletail was also messed up, seriously? It's like if your kid got kidnapped so you just shrug it off and move on just like that, like why? They never bothered to even try looking for her.
He didn't listen to his warriors, was aware apprentices were breaking rules and did nothing, and knew that elders and warriors were gossiping and causing a bad influence on others. It's no wonder the apprentices felt miserable, especially when the older cats were treating them like idiots, they were troubled youth, not pests. There was so many cats that Rowan didn't even know what to do with them anymore, honestly should have stepped down from leadership ages ago, and let Crowfrost become leader, he wasn't competent at all. And don't get me started when he lets his mate resort to violence and lets her defend him in his own battles, it's pathetic.
On the other, he obviously was being set up for failure later. Despite him pathetically letting his clan fall into non-existence and not even listening to his dead daughter's pleas, he was still given the short end of the stick in ThS. Just so Tigerheart could be set up as leader, despite him not being deserving of it as well. After Blackstar and Russetfur got iced, the choices for deputy and leader have been horribly questionable, and out of them, all Crowfrost seemed like the best choice.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on May 20, 2021 6:44:57 GMT -5
Going with the majority and saying both. He had a pretty awful situation handed to him but he also didn't react to it strongly.
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Post by Rio on May 20, 2021 6:58:51 GMT -5
I honestly never really liked him as a character. He just seemed really... flimsy?
Everyone seems to overlook how much of a jerk he was throughout TNP and to an extent, PoT lol. It also always made me uncomfortable how he went from bullying Tawnypelt to being her mate... like... yikes. It honestly feels like fanon Rowanstar is quite different to the Rowanstar that's actually in the books.
That's just my personal take anyway lol
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Post by Rainsplash on May 20, 2021 7:26:38 GMT -5
Both. He's too hostile to others and he's too prideful. But I feel sorry for him. Honestly, ShadowClan rebels and the books were blaming him and only.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 20, 2021 9:20:25 GMT -5
I honestly never really liked him as a character. He just seemed really... flimsy? Everyone seems to overlook how much of a jerk he was throughout TNP and to an extent, PoT lol. It also always made me uncomfortable how he went from bullying Tawnypelt to being her mate... like... yikes. It honestly feels like fanon Rowanstar is quite different to the Rowanstar that's actually in the books. That's just my personal take anyway lol "Fanon" Rowanstar is based off him in the latter books - where he's shown to be a Tom who loves his family (kits and Tawnypelt). He literally sucks up his pride in BrS so that Dawnpelt can safely deliver kits, and when Tawnypelt doubts her place in Shadowclan after his death, he soothes her Might have been a jerk, but it's clear he changed
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Post by Moonblazer on May 20, 2021 9:37:56 GMT -5
I honestly never really liked him as a character. He just seemed really... flimsy? Everyone seems to overlook how much of a jerk he was throughout TNP and to an extent, PoT lol. It also always made me uncomfortable how he went from bullying Tawnypelt to being her mate... like... yikes. It honestly feels like fanon Rowanstar is quite different to the Rowanstar that's actually in the books. That's just my personal take anyway lol "Fanon" Rowanstar is based off him in the latter books - where he's shown to be a Tom who loves his family (kits and Tawnypelt). He literally sucks up his pride in BrS so that Dawnpelt can safely deliver kits, and when Tawnypelt doubts her place in Shadowclan after his death, he soothes her Might have been a jerk, but it's clear he changed This. Also don’t forget the scene where he fully supported Tawnypelt going to the Tribe again with the Three and defending Tawnypelt’s loyalty to Shadowclan while also telling her that he’ll watch over the kits while she’s gone. Clearly he changed from his hostility towards Tawnypelt completely, just like Sandstorm did for Firestar. The scenes of him loving his family and respecting his mate far outweigh the few scenes that he’s snappy towards her in the past. Not to mention, I’m pretty sure the clan wasn’t happy when Rowanstar did accept help from Thunderclan. I’m pretty sure that’s a reason that so many of them thought Rowanstar and Shadowclan was no longer feared by the other clans, in which case yeah, of course Rowanstar’s not going to want help from the other clans when his clan literally dislikes when he does that. He was in a lose-lose situation the entire arc, nothing he did ever pleased the clan.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on May 20, 2021 15:35:24 GMT -5
Definitely both. He had potential and was ruined just to make his son Tigerheart/star look better in comparison but his head was too much up his own ass at times. Especially during Bramblestar's Storm, I wanted to smack him silly while reading his scenes in that book.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on May 20, 2021 17:20:55 GMT -5
Both. I feel that Rowanstar is a somewhat semi-decent cat at heart but his weaknesses just went all out when he became leader.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 20, 2021 18:37:22 GMT -5
"Fanon" Rowanstar is based off him in the latter books - where he's shown to be a Tom who loves his family (kits and Tawnypelt). He literally sucks up his pride in BrS so that Dawnpelt can safely deliver kits, and when Tawnypelt doubts her place in Shadowclan after his death, he soothes her Might have been a jerk, but it's clear he changed This. Also don’t forget the scene where he fully supported Tawnypelt going to the Tribe again with the Three and defending Tawnypelt’s loyalty to Shadowclan while also telling her that he’ll watch over the kits while she’s gone. Clearly he changed from his hostility towards Tawnypelt completely, just like Sandstorm did for Firestar. The scenes of him loving his family and respecting his mate far outweigh the few scenes that he’s snappy towards her in the past. Not to mention, I’m pretty sure the clan wasn’t happy when Rowanstar did accept help from Thunderclan. I’m pretty sure that’s a reason that so many of them thought Rowanstar and Shadowclan was no longer feared by the other clans, in which case yeah, of course Rowanstar’s not going to want help from the other clans when his clan literally dislikes when he does that. He was in a lose-lose situation the entire arc, nothing he did ever pleased the clan. Unless you're a tyrant or a leader not afraid to use violence, Shadowclan doesn't respect their leader They also respect their lord and savior Tigerheartstar because the editors apparently really like him
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 21, 2021 1:51:43 GMT -5
Rowanstar was done dirty. I like the fall from greace trope, but he was a fresh, new leader, and he had so much potential, but eventually he had to be used for the plot.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Rowanstar
May 21, 2021 2:03:15 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 21, 2021 2:03:15 GMT -5
Rowanstar was done dirty. I like the fall from greace trope, but he was a fresh, new leader, and he had so much potential, but eventually he had to be used for the plot. It would've made more sense if they had just used Onestar instead.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 21, 2021 2:09:29 GMT -5
Rowanstar was done dirty. I like the fall from greace trope, but he was a fresh, new leader, and he had so much potential, but eventually he had to be used for the plot. It would've made more sense if they had just used Onestar instead. If Darktail was Onestar's son, it would have made so much sense had it happened in WindClan. Instead of the "not being feared anymore" argument that was used in ShadowClan, maybe they could have used the problem of WindClan being allowed to be used as a punching bag too much.
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