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Post by Lionstrike on May 18, 2021 16:59:24 GMT -5
If anyone has opinions on Mudclaw (Windclan), feel free to type them in.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2021 17:29:25 GMT -5
I can't say I feel sorry for him in the slightest. He was always annoyingly aggressive and confrontational, and stooped to going to not one, but TWO enemy Clans to help him attack his own Clanmates, promising DEPUTYSHIP to someone from an enemy Clan, not even one of his WC followers. Mudclaw himself admits this, not Hawkfrost. He is 1000% a traitor. Yet people will defend him vehemently and act like he did absolutely nothing wrong just because Onestar ended up becoming an ass, like that cancels things out lol. The coup attempt could have ended up far deadlier than it was, his own Clanmates could have died because of him. Good riddance. I was never excited for his book, I can already see the endless debates his graphic novel will cause.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 18, 2021 18:52:10 GMT -5
Don't feel bad for him. Yeah, it sucks that he was cheated out of leadership...but I see why Tallstar was like 'Yeah. No.' Too aggressive and Tallstar wanted peace for his clan (And yes, Onestar was trash, but Onewhisker had shown positive qualities and Tallstar had no idea he'd turn into a flaming trash heap)
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Post by vectoring34 on May 18, 2021 18:59:02 GMT -5
People only like him because Onestar ended up being a jerk, as though it's a zero sum game where that makes Mudclaw a good guy. I'm happy his graphic novel is sticking to him being traitorous.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 18, 2021 19:43:16 GMT -5
I like him. Considering he was screwed over out of his position in favor of a shady switch out not long after his leader passed away, I don't blame him for being suspicious or angry. And honestly, Onestar feels like a horrible down ground, Mudclaw was ambitious but at least he was realistic and put his clan first a lot. Being fiercely loyal doesn't make him horrible imo, but it does make him stick out better over generic background characters. I would have preferred Mudstar over Onestar easily, especially since his clanmates were the ones encouraging him to stage the rebellion in the first place. He was in his right to challenge Onestar, it's just a shame Onestar had sheer luck, and Hawkfrost is a backstabbing manipulating furball. I personally have always liked Mudclaw, even before he was chosen as deputy, he wouldn't be my first choice, that goes to Deadfoot, but he's at least my second. I would have preferred if he had lived, became leader, and even probably hit it off with Nightcloud, they would have been quite the respectable power couple imo. On the other hand, I've always seen Onestar as a spineless coward, so I wasn't surprised with how he turned out as a leader, nor do I think his behavior with Smoke and Darktail is ooc lol. I already knew in the long run he was going to be a hot garbage of a leader, and would have pretty much preferred any cat over him in the first place.
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Post by silentbreeze on May 18, 2021 20:11:05 GMT -5
I like him. Considering he was screwed over out of his position in favor of a shady switch out not long after his leader passed away, I don't blame him for being suspicious or angry. And honestly, Onestar feels like a horrible down ground, Mudclaw was ambitious but at least he was realistic and put his clan first a lot. Being fiercely loyal doesn't make him horrible imo, but it does make him stick out better over generic background characters. I would have preferred Mudstar over Onestar easily, especially since his clanmates were the ones encouraging him to stage the rebellion in the first place. He was in his right to challenge Onestar, it's just a shame Onestar had sheer luck, and Hawkfrost is a backstabbing manipulating furball. I personally have always liked Mudclaw, even before he was chosen as deputy, he wouldn't be my first choice, that goes to Deadfoot, but he's at least my second. I would have preferred if he had lived, became leader, and even probably hit it off with Nightcloud, they would have been quite the respectable power couple imo. On the other hand, I've always seen Onestar as a spineless coward, so I wasn't surprised with how he turned out as a leader, nor do I think his behavior with Smoke and Darktail is ooc lol. I already knew in the long run he was going to be a hot garbage of a leader, and would have pretty much preferred any cat over him in the first place. 100% agree with this. Him turning on his clanmates was definitely wrong, and he doesn't deserve any sympathy for stooping that low, but say if he'd kept his position as deputy, he'd make a formidable leader for WC. As a deputy, he always had his clan's best interests at heart, and I can understand if he felt that it was a weakness to depend on other clans, especially with all that's happened to WC up to that moment. The way he was stripped of his title was also messed up, even moreso since Tallstar didn't even tell him to his face; he had to learn of this on the word of two TC cats. He could've handled the situation a lot better, but I know I'd be pretty pissed if that happened to me.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 18, 2021 20:23:59 GMT -5
I like him. Considering he was screwed over out of his position in favor of a shady switch out not long after his leader passed away, I don't blame him for being suspicious or angry. And honestly, Onestar feels like a horrible down ground, Mudclaw was ambitious but at least he was realistic and put his clan first a lot. Being fiercely loyal doesn't make him horrible imo, but it does make him stick out better over generic background characters. I would have preferred Mudstar over Onestar easily, especially since his clanmates were the ones encouraging him to stage the rebellion in the first place. He was in his right to challenge Onestar, it's just a shame Onestar had sheer luck, and Hawkfrost is a backstabbing manipulating furball. I personally have always liked Mudclaw, even before he was chosen as deputy, he wouldn't be my first choice, that goes to Deadfoot, but he's at least my second. I would have preferred if he had lived, became leader, and even probably hit it off with Nightcloud, they would have been quite the respectable power couple imo. On the other hand, I've always seen Onestar as a spineless coward, so I wasn't surprised with how he turned out as a leader, nor do I think his behavior with Smoke and Darktail is ooc lol. I already knew in the long run he was going to be a hot garbage of a leader, and would have pretty much preferred any cat over him in the first place. It pretty clearly wasn't Mudclaw's clanmates wanting the rebellion given that even with Riverclan and Shadowclanners recruited by Hawkfrost, he wasn't able to overpower the Onestar loyalists. Mudclaw was the one who was trying to impose his will over his clanmates, not the other way around.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 18, 2021 20:25:07 GMT -5
I like him. Considering he was screwed over out of his position in favor of a shady switch out not long after his leader passed away, I don't blame him for being suspicious or angry. And honestly, Onestar feels like a horrible down ground, Mudclaw was ambitious but at least he was realistic and put his clan first a lot. Being fiercely loyal doesn't make him horrible imo, but it does make him stick out better over generic background characters. I would have preferred Mudstar over Onestar easily, especially since his clanmates were the ones encouraging him to stage the rebellion in the first place. He was in his right to challenge Onestar, it's just a shame Onestar had sheer luck, and Hawkfrost is a backstabbing manipulating furball. I personally have always liked Mudclaw, even before he was chosen as deputy, he wouldn't be my first choice, that goes to Deadfoot, but he's at least my second. I would have preferred if he had lived, became leader, and even probably hit it off with Nightcloud, they would have been quite the respectable power couple imo. On the other hand, I've always seen Onestar as a spineless coward, so I wasn't surprised with how he turned out as a leader, nor do I think his behavior with Smoke and Darktail is ooc lol. I already knew in the long run he was going to be a hot garbage of a leader, and would have pretty much preferred any cat over him in the first place. 100% agree with this. Him turning on his clanmates was definitely wrong, and he doesn't deserve any sympathy for stooping that low, but say if he'd kept his position as deputy, he'd make a formidable leader for WC. As a deputy, he always had his clan's best interests at heart, and I can understand if he felt that it was a weakness to depend on other clans, especially with all that's happened to WC up to that moment. The way he was stripped of his title was also messed up, even moreso since Tallstar didn't even tell him to his face; he had to learn of this on the word of two TC cats. He could've handled the situation a lot better, but I know I'd be pretty pissed if that happened to me. Pretty much, he's not perfect, but I doubt he would have been a bad leader, at most he'd probably similar to Blackstar. In comparison, Onestar made the bar so ridiculously low....he's pretty much ruined WindClan's reputation at this point, so literally any other cat was an upgrade over him by then. It always bothered me that Tallstar never properly spoke to Mudclaw about the change, and also Fire and Bramble withholding information made them incredibly suspicious. In a situation like that, I agree, I would also be pretty angry, especially when it's ThunderClan of all clans putting their nose where it doesn't belong. It was utterly disrespectful. Even Onestar was too much of a coward to refuse Tallstar and also didn't announce his word himself, he had Firestar do it. He could have also stepped down from the change, I feel like Mudclaw would have been a far more tolerable leader in the end imo.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 18, 2021 20:43:37 GMT -5
I like him. Considering he was screwed over out of his position in favor of a shady switch out not long after his leader passed away, I don't blame him for being suspicious or angry. And honestly, Onestar feels like a horrible down ground, Mudclaw was ambitious but at least he was realistic and put his clan first a lot. Being fiercely loyal doesn't make him horrible imo, but it does make him stick out better over generic background characters. I would have preferred Mudstar over Onestar easily, especially since his clanmates were the ones encouraging him to stage the rebellion in the first place. He was in his right to challenge Onestar, it's just a shame Onestar had sheer luck, and Hawkfrost is a backstabbing manipulating furball. I personally have always liked Mudclaw, even before he was chosen as deputy, he wouldn't be my first choice, that goes to Deadfoot, but he's at least my second. I would have preferred if he had lived, became leader, and even probably hit it off with Nightcloud, they would have been quite the respectable power couple imo. On the other hand, I've always seen Onestar as a spineless coward, so I wasn't surprised with how he turned out as a leader, nor do I think his behavior with Smoke and Darktail is ooc lol. I already knew in the long run he was going to be a hot garbage of a leader, and would have pretty much preferred any cat over him in the first place. It pretty clearly wasn't Mudclaw's clanmates wanting the rebellion given that even with Riverclan and Shadowclanners recruited by Hawkfrost, he wasn't able to overpower the Onestar loyalists. Mudclaw was the one who was trying to impose his will over them, not the other way around. Actually, it's pointed out by Brambleclaw and Leafpaw that quite a few cats supported Mudclaw, and would be short with Onestar because of not only the suspicious change, but also because of Onestar giving away territory at meetings. It's just that the most notable ones were cats like Webfoot and Nightcloud. Also, most of the cats were encouraging and accepting of him being leader after Tallstar passed away, just that certain cats like Crowfeather and Ashfoot, switched tunes because of Firestar. There's a lot of unnamed cats on both sides, especially considering only ThunderClan had a full fledged allegiance back then but WindClan, and the other clans for that matter, didn't. The only reason Mudclaw didn't have a guaranteed victory is because of ThunderClan showing up to back up Onestar. ThunderClan basically carried Onestar to leadership, so it's quite ironic how they turn out in the future.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 18, 2021 21:08:28 GMT -5
It pretty clearly wasn't Mudclaw's clanmates wanting the rebellion given that even with Riverclan and Shadowclanners recruited by Hawkfrost, he wasn't able to overpower the Onestar loyalists. Mudclaw was the one who was trying to impose his will over them, not the other way around. Actually, it's pointed out by Brambleclaw and Leafpaw that quite a few cats supported Mudclaw, and would be short with Onestar because of not only the suspicious change, but also because of Onestar giving away territory at meetings. It's just that the most notable ones were cats like Webfoot and Nightcloud. Also, most of the cats were encouraging and accepting of him being leader after Tallstar passed away, just that certain cats like Crowfeather and Ashfoot, switched tunes because of Firestar. There's a lot of unnamed cats on both sides, especially considering only ThunderClan had a full fledged allegiance back then but WindClan, and the other clans for that matter, didn't. The only reason Mudclaw didn't have a guaranteed victory is because of ThunderClan showing up to back up Onestar. ThunderClan basically carried Onestar to leadership, so it's quite ironic how they turn out in the future. A few cats isn't the whole clan, and if Mudclaw's position was really so strong, he would not have needed to drag Shadowclan and Riverclan into it. It is a little bit hypocritical to complain about Onestar asking Thunderclan for backup when Mudclaw is the one who actually started that by dragging in not one, but TWO clans to support his claim. On the contrary, this rather does imply that the Onestar supporters greatly outnumbered the Mudclaw supporters. That is to say, Onestar+one clan's aid>Mudclaw+two clans' aid. If Mudclaw can't win even when the odds are stacked in his favor, how is he supposed to win fairly? The answer is that he can't, that's why he tried to stack the deck. That he failed in spite of that is just proof of how weak his support in Windclan really was. We're talking sub Brokenstar levels of support for leadership here if it was that easy to get rid of him even with a numerical advantage of called in help.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 18, 2021 21:29:00 GMT -5
Actually, it's pointed out by Brambleclaw and Leafpaw that quite a few cats supported Mudclaw, and would be short with Onestar because of not only the suspicious change, but also because of Onestar giving away territory at meetings. It's just that the most notable ones were cats like Webfoot and Nightcloud. Also, most of the cats were encouraging and accepting of him being leader after Tallstar passed away, just that certain cats like Crowfeather and Ashfoot, switched tunes because of Firestar. There's a lot of unnamed cats on both sides, especially considering only ThunderClan had a full fledged allegiance back then but WindClan, and the other clans for that matter, didn't. The only reason Mudclaw didn't have a guaranteed victory is because of ThunderClan showing up to back up Onestar. ThunderClan basically carried Onestar to leadership, so it's quite ironic how they turn out in the future. A few cats isn't the whole clan, and if Mudclaw's position was really so strong, he would not have needed to drag Shadowclan and Riverclan into it. It is a little bit hypocritical to complain about Onestar asking Thunderclan for backup when Mudclaw is the one who actually started that by dragging in not one, but TWO clans to support his claim. On the contrary, this rather does imply that the Onestar supporters greatly outnumbered the Mudclaw supporters. That is to say, Onestar+one clan's aid>Mudclaw+two clans' aid. If Mudclaw can't win even when the odds are stacked in his favor, how is he supposed to win fairly? The answer is that he can't, that's why he tried to stack the deck. That he failed in spite of that is just proof of how weak his support in Windclan really was. We're talking sub Brokenstar levels of support for leadership here if it was that easy to get rid of him even with a numerical advantage of called in help. He didn't drag River and Shadow into it, there were cats that believed he was the rightful leader, so they joined, with or without Hawk's encouragement. The coup was going to happen regardless, Hawkfrost and others just offered their support. ThunderClan's involvement was a thing far before the coup, even before TNP. It's one of the reasons why WindClan struggles to stand on their own and have become annoyed at ThunderClan's constant interferences. I'm not complaining about ThunderClan supporting Onestar, I'm just pointing out that without Firestar carrying Onestar like a lost child from start to finish, I doubt he would have made it to leadership. That's my point. Also there is the fact that cats can be "sheep". They believed Firestar's words, and followed it just like that, and just because he's the leader by "code" they went along with it as well. We'll never know specifically why cats followed Onestar except because of Firestar's word, because no cat outside him and Bramble truly know the truth. Onewhisker just happened to be the only WindClan cat to hear as well, the same cat that happened to be Firestar's friend. Imo, to me, numbers on either side never mattered, just that cats supported Mudclaw enough for him to rebel, and that's the point I'm making. Who outnumbers who doesn't matter especially when there's no official allegiances and telling of who is on what side. I also respectfully disagree, he obviously was popular and respected among his clan, and easily would have become leader if not for Firestar stepping in at all, another point I'm making here. Onestar would have been lost from the start if not for Firestar, even before the coup was conceded as a plan. And I'm going to be real with you Vect, we've done this many...many, many times, to the point that it's tiring. And I'd rather not get back into another repetitive unnecessary debate that goes no where about Mudclaw/Onestar. My opinion will not change on Mudclaw, especially not before the newest comic comes out. So I'm asking this in the most polite way possible, agree to disagree, and leave it at that this time. Please.
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Post by Rainfire on May 18, 2021 22:04:51 GMT -5
I don't like him or really feel sorry for him, but I do think he's an interesting character.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 18, 2021 22:06:44 GMT -5
i'm a mudclaw loyalist to this day and no one can convince me to stop. probably gonna be the only one on here that will say they like him. he's the true leader of windclan.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 18, 2021 22:11:41 GMT -5
Never really cared about him much. He was as arrogant, nasty and unfit for leadership as Onestar became, though at the time Onewhisker seemed he would be peaceful, hence why I’m not surprised that Tallstar switched them out. Mudclaw brought his own downfall onto himself by choosing to make deals with other clans and ambushing his way back into a position he no longer had. I think Mudclaw’s an interesting character for sure, just like I think Onestar also is, but I have no sympathy for Mudclaw’s fate. He brought it upon himself.
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Post by Hollyfall on May 18, 2021 23:33:57 GMT -5
I can feel a bit of sympathy for him given what happened. Yeah, he got cheated out of leadership for a Clan he very clearly loves and wants the best for, and that sucks. It was a shady switch and I don't blame him at all for being angry. But as others have pointed out, Tallstar had good mind to change deputies given how aggressive Mudclaw can be. The guy ended up getting help from two enemy Clans to try and validate his leadership through force, while all Tallstar wanted was peace and friendship between ThunderClan and WindClan. Mudclaw was a traitor and just proved Tallstar right in the end. Onestar even offered for Mudclaw to remain deputy but he spat that right back at him and rebelled. Pretty telling if you ask me.
I do find him quite interesting as a character though. For his faults, he seems a competent deputy (before being demoted anyways lol) and genuinely wants the best for WindClan. I'm assuming his graphic novel will paint him more along the lines of an anti-hero, but that remains to be seen. They seem to be sticking with the "Mudclaw is a traitor" idea with what we've seen so far. Who knows. Maybe Mudclaw would have been a great and admirable leader if he won. But based off what we saw of him in TNP, I'm inclined to say no.
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Post by Brindlefern on May 19, 2021 0:00:52 GMT -5
i'm a mudclaw loyalist to this day and no one can convince me to stop. probably gonna be the only one on here that will say they like him. he's the true leader of windclan. Joining ya in the "Like Mudclaw" corner there if ya don't mind. :P
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on May 19, 2021 6:51:43 GMT -5
I'm in the middle when it comes to Mudclaw. Interesting character, I feel sorry for him because he was cheated out of leadership, but also don't like how he went behind some of his Clan's back and brought in forces from other Clans to attack his new leader.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 19, 2021 15:26:46 GMT -5
He's an interesting character, and i always liked his personality. He can be wild, arrogant, stubborn, territorial and reckless, but he does seem to care for the wellbeing of his Clan and his littermates. He's a character with a lot of depth as he always seems to be desperate to protect his Clan. He developed this desperation from young age, causing him to grow reckless and too proud to admit when his Clan is weak. He can be supportive and friendly, but his flaws overweight his positive traits.
Homever, i can't say that he would have been a good leader though. He was too reckless and arrogant and he would have started fights for everything, jumping straight at battle whitout thinking and making poor decisions. Example is when he crossed a thunderpath during the great journey and did it whitout thinking for the safety of his Clan, wich almost caused for a queen and elder to get hit by a monster. He's a good deputy to balance Tallstar's doormat personality, but as a leader... i just see WindClan being unnecessarily agressive during his reign, and Hawkfrost would have also been his deputy as he said he had promised.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on May 20, 2021 14:37:48 GMT -5
I honestly would have liked to see Mudclaw as leader because I'm under the impression that he wouldn't even have been half as bad compared to whatever mess Onestar turned into. Perhaps he could've been similar to Blackstar, who was aggressive but still had some common sense, at least after the first arc.
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Post by Lionstrike on May 20, 2021 17:04:30 GMT -5
I wonder why Onestar turned into such a mess.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 20, 2021 18:49:08 GMT -5
I wonder why Onestar turned into such a mess. he built up resentment for firestar and thunderclan because firestar peer pressured him into accepting leadership. onestar was a coward from the beginning. he couldn't find the courage to say no, so he kept blaming firestar and thunderclan until the eclipse battle happened and he made up an excuse to fight them. a lot of weight was placed on him once becoming leader and he wasnt ready or qualified for it.
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