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Post by Aqua on May 2, 2021 11:35:52 GMT -5
Was she wrong to lie to her clan about the kits' father?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 2, 2021 12:38:16 GMT -5
Of course, she was. However, people need to acknowledge that the whole lie came about from Frecklewish's delusional behavior and pushing the idea on her in the first place. Mapleshade not answering her in the spur of the moment ended up making Frecklewish confirm her delusions on her own. Honestly what she should have done is deny the claims from the start, but she didn't.
The problem here is that regardless of her lying or not, the results will have most likely been the same. At the end of the day, those kits were still Appledusk's kin. And that alone was enough to get her persecuted, attacked, and exiled.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 2, 2021 14:05:16 GMT -5
idk why she couldnt keep that info private and still be okay. i miss when the kits father didnt need to be known to everyone in the clan as if its their business. maple's whole novella hinges on this idea not being a thing for some reason idk
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Post by Mothdapple on May 2, 2021 14:51:25 GMT -5
In a way, yes. She should’ve been able to keep it a secret no problem without questioning, but what she did wrong was not correcting Frecklewish when she assumed the kits were Birchface’s. She should’ve told her they aren’t his, saving a lot of trouble, but she just went along with it, which is just as bad as lying about it herself. It’s called lying by omission, which just as disgusting as claiming that the kits are Birchface’s herself.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on May 2, 2021 15:19:15 GMT -5
Yes, she was wrong about that. Instead, that whole thing where the queen didn't have to confirm who fathered a litter should have been applied to Mapleshade as well. But then, we wouldn't have much of a story about her at all.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on May 2, 2021 17:26:24 GMT -5
Yes. She lied to everyone. She could have just said she wanted to keep it a secret instead of leading them to believe it was Birchface.
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Post by Ivyfalcon on May 2, 2021 19:07:10 GMT -5
Yes, lying by omission is still lying. It was a bad idea to let Frecklewish assume the kits were Birchface’s. Of course, telling the whole truth would’ve also been a bad idea, as it’s likely she still would’ve ended up exiled because of who the father was. She should’ve just chosen to not disclose the father, like others said, but confirmed to Frecklewish that it wasn’t Birchface.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on May 2, 2021 19:10:29 GMT -5
Yes, Saying that the father of her kits was a decently deceased, fairly popular cat was really gross, and especially grosser when you remember that she had an easier, totally possible way to "say" who the father was.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 2, 2021 19:35:55 GMT -5
Even if she didn't disclose who the father was, it didn't exactly stop the cats from figuring it out on their own. The elders were suspicious, Ravenwing was too because of the prophecy, and when he confronted Mapleshade with the accusation, she didn't confirm it was Appledusk. But even without the confirmation, Ravenwing still went to Oakstar about it. Mapleshade never admitted who the actual father was, and the others still figured it out on their own. Whether she had said who the father was or not, again, I doubt it would have changed much. Which is unfortunate. Even if they had respected her wishes and didn't ask her about who the father was, they would have treated her and her kits like trash regardless when they jumped to conclusions.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 2, 2021 20:10:52 GMT -5
Even if she didn't disclose who the father was, it didn't exactly stop the cats from figuring it out on their own. The elders were suspicious, Ravenwing was too because of the prophecy, and when he confronted Mapleshade with the accusation, she didn't confirm it was Appledusk. But even without the confirmation, Ravenwing still went to Oakstar about it. Mapleshade never admitted who the actual father was, and the others still figured it out on their own. Whether she had said who the father was or not, again, I doubt it would have changed much. Which is unfortunate. Even if they had respected her wishes and didn't ask her about who the father was, they would have treated her and her kits like trash regardless when they jumped to conclusions. I don’t think she would’ve been treated as badly if she just confirmed from the start that the kits weren’t Birchface’s though. That’s where I criticize her logic. The result would be largely the same since Appledusk was the father, but I don’t think it would’ve been as bad if she just said that the father wasn’t Birchface from the start. Especially Frecklewish’s reaction.
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Post by Cheetahstar on May 2, 2021 20:49:51 GMT -5
Even if she didn't disclose who the father was, it didn't exactly stop the cats from figuring it out on their own. The elders were suspicious, Ravenwing was too because of the prophecy, and when he confronted Mapleshade with the accusation, she didn't confirm it was Appledusk. But even without the confirmation, Ravenwing still went to Oakstar about it. Mapleshade never admitted who the actual father was, and the others still figured it out on their own. Whether she had said who the father was or not, again, I doubt it would have changed much. Which is unfortunate. Even if they had respected her wishes and didn't ask her about who the father was, they would have treated her and her kits like trash regardless when they jumped to conclusions. I don’t think she would’ve been treated as badly if she just confirmed from the start that the kits weren’t Birchface’s though. That’s where I criticize her logic. The result would be largely the same since Appledusk was the father, but I don’t think it would’ve been as bad if she just said that the father wasn’t Birchface from the start. Especially Frecklewish’s reaction. I still think Frecklewish would have attacked her and insulted the kits
Appledusk did kill her brother afterall
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 2, 2021 21:14:38 GMT -5
she was wrong for allowing people to think they were birchface. thats lying by omission.
but not openly announcing that they were half clan would have been smart lol
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Post by Mothdapple on May 2, 2021 22:38:01 GMT -5
I don’t think she would’ve been treated as badly if she just confirmed from the start that the kits weren’t Birchface’s though. That’s where I criticize her logic. The result would be largely the same since Appledusk was the father, but I don’t think it would’ve been as bad if she just said that the father wasn’t Birchface from the start. Especially Frecklewish’s reaction. I still think Frecklewish would have attacked her and insulted the kits
Appledusk did kill her brother afterall
I don’t think she would’ve reacted as much if she wasn’t led to believe that they were her brother’s kits for two whole moons, though. She still would’ve been very angry and resentful, obviously, but not to the same degree.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 2, 2021 23:07:31 GMT -5
I still think Frecklewish would have attacked her and insulted the kits
Appledusk did kill her brother afterall
I don’t think she would’ve reacted as much if she wasn’t led to believe that they were her brother’s kits for two whole moons, though. She still would’ve been very angry and resentful, obviously, but not to the same degree. Frecklewish didn't attack her until she found out the father was Appledusk, not because it wasn't Birchface's. Same with Oakstar and Ravenwing. Ravenwing accused her of mothering Appledusk's kits. And the first thing Oakstar demanded was who was the father of the kits, using Ravenwing's claim that they were Appledusk's. The point Mapleshade kept driving was that the father of the kits shouldn't matter. And they shouldn't. But it's very much because of who their father is that they drove them out. Frecklewish literally says that their father killed Birch and Flower and that her deserved to be driven out. Added to the fact that Ravenwing had a prophecy, Oakstar uses it as means to rationalize his decisions to exile kits. He even implies that if they belonged to any other tom he would have been different toward the decision. Whether the kits belonged to Birchface or not wouldn't have changed a single thing, the mere fact that they shared the same blood as Appledusk would have been enough for them to treat Maple and her kits like trash.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 2, 2021 23:11:29 GMT -5
I don’t think she would’ve reacted as much if she wasn’t led to believe that they were her brother’s kits for two whole moons, though. She still would’ve been very angry and resentful, obviously, but not to the same degree. Frecklewish didn't attack her until she found out the father was Appledusk, not because it wasn't Birchface's. Same with Oakstar and Ravenwing. Ravenwing accused her of mothering Appledusk's kits. And the first thing Oakstar demanded was who was the father of the kits, using Ravenwing's claim that they were Appledusk's. The point Mapleshade kept driving was that the father of the kits shouldn't matter. And they shouldn't. But it's very much because of who their father is that they drove them out. Frecklewish literally says that their father killed Birch and Flower and that her deserved to be driven out. Added to the fact that Ravenwing had a prophecy, Oakstar uses it as means to rationalize his decisions to exile kits. He even implies that if they belonged to any other tom he would have been different toward the decision. Whether the kits belonged to Birchface or not wouldn't have changed a single thing, the mere fact that they shared the same blood as Appledusk would have been enough for them to treat Maple and her kits like trash. I still don’t believe Frecklewish wouldn’t have lashed out as badly had she not been led to believe that the kits were her dead brother’s. The fact that she was led to believe that they were her brother’s for two moons AND that they were actually the kits of the cat who killed her brother combined are what caused her to lash out. Not just one or the other.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 2, 2021 23:17:10 GMT -5
Frecklewish didn't attack her until she found out the father was Appledusk, not because it wasn't Birchface's. Same with Oakstar and Ravenwing. Ravenwing accused her of mothering Appledusk's kits. And the first thing Oakstar demanded was who was the father of the kits, using Ravenwing's claim that they were Appledusk's. The point Mapleshade kept driving was that the father of the kits shouldn't matter. And they shouldn't. But it's very much because of who their father is that they drove them out. Frecklewish literally says that their father killed Birch and Flower and that her deserved to be driven out. Added to the fact that Ravenwing had a prophecy, Oakstar uses it as means to rationalize his decisions to exile kits. He even implies that if they belonged to any other tom he would have been different toward the decision. Whether the kits belonged to Birchface or not wouldn't have changed a single thing, the mere fact that they shared the same blood as Appledusk would have been enough for them to treat Maple and her kits like trash. I still don’t believe Frecklewish wouldn’t have lashed out as badly had she not been led to believe that the kits were her dead brother’s. The fact that she was led to believe that they were her brother’s for two moons AND the fact that they were actually the kits of the cat who killed her brother combined are what caused her to lash out. Not just one or the other. My point here is that regardless of if Mapleshade lied or not the results would have been the same. Frecklewish would have lashed out because of who the father was. She even makes it a point that the kits should be driven out as well because of who their father was.
Those kits were innocent, but merely because of who's blood they shared they were persecuted along side their mother. Her lying about the father shouldn't = to her being slashed in the face and attacked in front of her children, then exiled.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 2, 2021 23:36:04 GMT -5
I still don’t believe Frecklewish wouldn’t have lashed out as badly had she not been led to believe that the kits were her dead brother’s. The fact that she was led to believe that they were her brother’s for two moons AND the fact that they were actually the kits of the cat who killed her brother combined are what caused her to lash out. Not just one or the other. My point here is that regardless of if Mapleshade lied or not the results would have been the same. Frecklewish would have lashed out because of who the father was. She even makes it a point that the kits should be driven out as well because of who their father was.
Those kits were innocent, but merely because of who's blood they shared they were persecuted along side their mother. Her lying about the father shouldn't = to her being slashed in the face and attacked in front of her children, then exiled. I agree with that last part. Mapleshade’s kits had no control over the situation they were born into and they should not have been exiled. Only Mapleshade needed to be punished. But I don’t think cats such as Frecklewish and Oakstar wouldn’t feel AS passionately wronged if they weren’t led to believe the kits were Birchface’s. I am not saying the results wouldn’t be the same or that Frecklewish still wouldn’t have lashed out. I just don’t think it would’ve been AS bad. I still think Mapleshade and the kits would’ve been driven out as the clan was bound to find out at some point regardless. I believe it was very wrong for Mapleshade to let Frecklewish and the rest of the Clan believe that the kits were Birchface’s. She could’ve corrected Frecklewish by saying that the kits weren’t Birchface’s, but she didn’t, which thus led to a possibly larger reaction from Frecklewish, Oakstar, and the rest of the Clan. Frecklewish was passionate about the fact that the kits were her brother’s only for that to be crushed moons later. She even wanted Mapleshade to name one of the kits after him. She became very attached to the idea that her brother would live through these kits. Had Mapleshade told her they weren’t his in the first place and not let her to so strongly believe in this misconception, then I don’t think Frecklewish would have had AS big as a reaction, but still would’ve lashed out.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 2, 2021 23:48:11 GMT -5
Mapleshade’s whole plan was to let the Clan believe they were Birchface’s kits until they were ready to be apprenticed, and then reveal it later once they were established in the Clan. Same with RiverClan. Which, in my opinion, is horrible and also stupid. That might’ve even led to an even bigger reaction from ThunderClan.
She was going to tell the truth eventually, but she had no consideration that the consequences would apply to her. She believed the rules wouldn’t apply then, which only makes me believe she is entitled. And she was planning on using the kits to ensure her relationship with Appledusk. In the first chapter, when Mapleshade sees Reedshine brush against Appledusk and tells him to hear a funny story, she thinks that Appledusk is hers and the kits will make sure of that.
These poor kits, they were born with the sole purpose of being used either way. As tools for their parents’ relationship and for tools of revenge. I just wish they were born into a better situation.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 2, 2021 23:59:15 GMT -5
My point here is that regardless of if Mapleshade lied or not the results would have been the same. Frecklewish would have lashed out because of who the father was. She even makes it a point that the kits should be driven out as well because of who their father was.
Those kits were innocent, but merely because of who's blood they shared they were persecuted along side their mother. Her lying about the father shouldn't = to her being slashed in the face and attacked in front of her children, then exiled. I agree with that last part. Mapleshade’s kits had no control over the situation they were born into and they should not have been exiled. Only Mapleshade needed to be punished. But I don’t think cats such as Frecklewish and Oakstar wouldn’t feel AS passionately wronged if they weren’t led to believe the kits were Birchface’s. I am not saying the results wouldn’t be the same or that Frecklewish still wouldn’t have lashed out. I just don’t think it would’ve been AS bad. I still think Mapleshade and the kits would’ve been driven out as the clan was bound to find out at some point regardless. I believe it was very wrong for Mapleshade to let Frecklewish and the rest of the Clan believe that the kits were Birchface’s. She could’ve corrected Frecklewish by saying that the kits weren’t Birchface’s, but she didn’t, which thus led to a possibly larger reaction from Frecklewish, Oakstar, and the rest of the Clan. Frecklewish was passionate about the fact that the kits were her brother’s only for that to be crushed moons later. She even wanted Mapleshade to name one of the kits after him. She became very attached to the idea that her brother would live through these kits. Had Mapleshade told her they weren’t his in the first place and not let her to so strongly believe in this misconception, then I don’t think Frecklewish would have had AS big as a reaction, but still would’ve lashed out. No offense, but how would the situation not be AS bad if she hadn't lied. You agree that she would have lashed out regardless, but it wouldn't have been AS bad? Lashing out means to harm someone, to which Frecklewish did to Mapleshade in front of her children. And even if she didn't physically hurt Mapleshade she still took disgusting low shots at the kits because of who the father was. Calling them "half-clan creatures" which is pretty much the equivalent of dehumanizing. Mapleshade never got a chance to plea her case against the accusation before Frecklewish attacked her. And even when she did she never had a chance period. Oakstar, before even speaking about the prophecy, tells Mapleshade she can't expect his forgiveness because of who the father was. Frecklewish wanted the kits gone because of who the father was. And Ravenwing used the prophecy as means to justify his accusations in the first place. I find it hard to see how this wouldn't be AS bad, especially if the results are the same regardless of what led up to it. Her lying or not is just a factor in this scenario that doesn't change the outcome, it's not even relevant. Say that Mapleshade was the only one punished, can we actually be okay with the idea that ThunderClan would have kept those kits safe or treated them properly? I highly doubt Frecklewish wouldn't still continue to treat them scornfully, along with the rest of the clans, but who knows, maybe Oakstar would still be keen on using them as weapons against their own father. If it wasn't going to be as bad, then that's like saying lying by omission isn't AS bad as lying out right.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 3, 2021 0:26:34 GMT -5
Mapleshade’s whole plan was to let the Clan believe they were Birchface’s kits until they were ready to be apprenticed, and then reveal it later once they were established in the Clan. Same with RiverClan. Which, in my opinion, is horrible and also stupid. That might’ve even led to an even bigger reaction from ThunderClan. She was going to tell the truth eventually, but she had no consideration that the consequences would apply to her. She believed the rules wouldn’t apply then, which only makes me believe she is entitled. And she was planning on using the kits to ensure her relationship with Appledusk. In the first chapter, when Mapleshade sees Reedshine brush against Appledusk and tells him to hear a funny story, she thinks that Appledusk is hers and the kits will make sure of that. These poor kits, they were born with the sole purpose of being used either way. As tools for their parents’ relationship and for tools of revenge. I just wish they were born into a better situation. Whole plan? No, I disagree. The idea was pushed onto her from Frecklewish, her original plan was to keep the father a secret to herself then tell her clan the truth. Mapleshade believed that StarClan was offering her a way to help raise her kits, but she was still unable to find herself lying to her clanmates out right, so she did it by omission. I find it highly unlikely the clans would be so eager to kick out apprentices over kits, who are reliant on their mother. Apprentices are old enough to follow the code, fight and die for their clans, and serve their leaders. Exiling them, when they're no longer dependent on their mother would make them look even worse imo. Especially when at that point, it's Mapleshade who without a doubt could have taken all the blame. It's like the idea of Leafpool's secret getting out while the three weren't warriors for long, what are they going to do? Exile the three? It would have made more sense to exile Leafpool. But then again, there's no use crying over spilt milk at that point, or so to speak. Kits are what bind two cats together, it takes two to tango after all. Appledusk told Mapleshade he loved her, so why else would she be angry at another woman trying to hit on him when he's supposed to be in a relationship with her? The kits are proof of their love, is it not? Mapleshade didn't exactly expect Appledusk to cheat on her, and even have another set of kits on the way. I hardly see Mapleshade seeing the kits as proof of her relationship between her now ex-beloved, or equivalent to her now ex-husband, as proof of their relatioship to be as bad as, or on the same levels of Oakstar literally wanting to raise kits to murder Appledusk one day out of revenge. Even Mapleshade pointed out how their behavior was against the code, but both Oak and Freckle could care less and even defended the idea.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 3, 2021 0:34:22 GMT -5
I agree with that last part. Mapleshade’s kits had no control over the situation they were born into and they should not have been exiled. Only Mapleshade needed to be punished. But I don’t think cats such as Frecklewish and Oakstar wouldn’t feel AS passionately wronged if they weren’t led to believe the kits were Birchface’s. I am not saying the results wouldn’t be the same or that Frecklewish still wouldn’t have lashed out. I just don’t think it would’ve been AS bad. I still think Mapleshade and the kits would’ve been driven out as the clan was bound to find out at some point regardless. I believe it was very wrong for Mapleshade to let Frecklewish and the rest of the Clan believe that the kits were Birchface’s. She could’ve corrected Frecklewish by saying that the kits weren’t Birchface’s, but she didn’t, which thus led to a possibly larger reaction from Frecklewish, Oakstar, and the rest of the Clan. Frecklewish was passionate about the fact that the kits were her brother’s only for that to be crushed moons later. She even wanted Mapleshade to name one of the kits after him. She became very attached to the idea that her brother would live through these kits. Had Mapleshade told her they weren’t his in the first place and not let her to so strongly believe in this misconception, then I don’t think Frecklewish would have had AS big as a reaction, but still would’ve lashed out. No offense, but how would the situation not be AS bad if she hadn't lied. You agree that she would have lashed out regardless, but it wouldn't have been AS bad? Lashing out means to harm someone, to which Frecklewish did to Mapleshade in front of her children. And even if she didn't physically hurt Mapleshade she still took disgusting low shots at the kits because of who the father was. Calling them "half-clan creatures" which is pretty much the equivalent of dehumanizing. Mapleshade never got a chance to plea her case against the accusation before Frecklewish attacked her. And even when she did she never had a chance period. Oakstar, before even speaking about the prophecy, tells Mapleshade she can't expect his forgiveness because of who the father was. Frecklewish wanted the kits gone because of who the father was. And Ravenwing used the prophecy as means to justify his accusations in the first place. I find it hard to see how this wouldn't be AS bad, especially if the results are the same regardless of what led up to it. Her lying or not is just a factor in this scenario that doesn't change the outcome, it's not even relevant. Say that Mapleshade was the only one punished, can we actually be okay with the idea that ThunderClan would have kept those kits safe or treated them properly? I highly doubt Frecklewish wouldn't still continue to treat them scornfully, along with the rest of the clans, but who knows, maybe Oakstar would still be keen on using them as weapons against their own father. If it wasn't going to be as bad, then that's like saying lying by omission isn't AS bad as lying out right. Like I said before, I agree the outcome would’ve been the same. I do think Frecklewish still would’ve lashed out otherwise, but maybe she wouldn’t have attacked Mapleshade in the same way. Yes, the fact that Appledusk is the father is the main reason for the reaction from ThunderClan, but her lying to her Clan is part of the reason too. You cannot deny that. Like I said before, it isn’t the sole reason. The reaction is a compilation of: 1. Mapleshade breaking the Warrior Code by having a Half Clan relationship 2. The fact that this cat is from RIVERCLAN, a Clan in which ThunderClan has had a rivalry with over Sunningrocks 3. Mapleshade lying for two moons about the kits’ father, going along with the misconception that the father is Birchface 4. Mapleshade allowing the Clan to believe the kits are Birchface’s 5. The ultimate fact that the true father of the kits was the cat who had accidentally killed Birchface and Flowerpaw It’s not one factor or the other. It is all of these factors building off on each other that led to rage and bitterness towards Mapleshade from the entirety of ThunderClan. The fact that Mapleshade didn’t think she’d get punished for any of this is beyond me. Frecklewish acted in a sudden rage. I don’t think she should’ve attacked Mapleshade in front of her kits or called them half-Clan creatures, but she was blinded by rage and acted wrongfully. Mapleshade also is blinded by rage and acts wrongfully later on. They were both in the wrong here. I am NOT saying what Frecklewish said or did wasn’t wrong. It absolutely was. But I am saying that Mapleshade made her own situation worse by allowing the Clan to believe that the kits were Birchface’s for her own selfish reasons.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 3, 2021 0:46:16 GMT -5
Mapleshade’s whole plan was to let the Clan believe they were Birchface’s kits until they were ready to be apprenticed, and then reveal it later once they were established in the Clan. Same with RiverClan. Which, in my opinion, is horrible and also stupid. That might’ve even led to an even bigger reaction from ThunderClan. She was going to tell the truth eventually, but she had no consideration that the consequences would apply to her. She believed the rules wouldn’t apply then, which only makes me believe she is entitled. And she was planning on using the kits to ensure her relationship with Appledusk. In the first chapter, when Mapleshade sees Reedshine brush against Appledusk and tells him to hear a funny story, she thinks that Appledusk is hers and the kits will make sure of that. These poor kits, they were born with the sole purpose of being used either way. As tools for their parents’ relationship and for tools of revenge. I just wish they were born into a better situation. Whole plan? No, I disagree. The idea was pushed onto her from Frecklewish, her original plan was to keep the father a secret to herself then tell her clan the truth. Mapleshade believed that StarClan was offering her a way to help raise her kits, but she was still unable to find herself lying to her clanmates out right, so she did it by omission. I find it highly unlikely the clans would be so eager to kick out apprentices over kits, who are reliant on their mother. Apprentices are old enough to follow the code, fight and die for their clans, and serve their leaders. Exiling them, when they're no longer dependent on their mother would make them look even worse imo. Especially when at that point, it's Mapleshade who without a doubt could have taken all the blame. It's like the idea of Leafpool's secret getting out while the three weren't warriors for long, what are they going to do? Exile the three? It would have made more sense to exile Leafpool. But then again, there's no use crying over spilt milk at that point, or so to speak. Kits are what bind two cats together, it takes two to tango after all. Appledusk told Mapleshade he loved her, so why else would she be angry at another woman trying to hit on him when he's supposed to be in a relationship with her? The kits are proof of their love, is it not? Mapleshade didn't exactly expect Appledusk to cheat on her, and even have another set of kits on the way. I hardly see Mapleshade seeing the kits as proof of her relationship between her now ex-beloved, or equivalent to her now ex-husband, as proof of their relatioship to be as bad as, or on the same levels of Oakstar literally wanting to raise kits to murder Appledusk one day out of revenge. Even Mapleshade pointed out how their behavior was against the code, but both Oak and Freckle could care less and even defended the idea. Mapleshade still planned on telling the truth anyways even after Frecklewish’s misconception. If she waited even longer for the truth to come out, I believe cats such as Oakstar and Frecklewish would’ve been even angrier with her since she went along with the lie for even longer, which means they held onto the belief that Birchface was living through the kits longer. I was addressing how Mapleshade would’ve been treated, but I’m not sure about the kits. I would like an AU where this happened. Either they stay in the Clan, get exiled with their mother over parentage like they were as kits, or try to stay but then leave to join their mother after being treated horribly by the Clan. And I think the latter would be most likely. I am not justifying anyone’s actions. My point is that Mapleshade’s own reasons were selfish as well, nor did I say it is as bad as Oakstar’s own selfish intentions. Mapleshade should not have gotten herself in this situation in the first place. And for all we know, Appledusk likely was already with Reedshine before hooking up with Mapleshade. She shouldn’t have gotten with Appledusk, period. And she knew she shouldn’t. But she did anyways, and surprised when she was punished for it. You play with fire, you might get burned, I guess.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 3, 2021 0:55:28 GMT -5
No offense, but how would the situation not be AS bad if she hadn't lied. You agree that she would have lashed out regardless, but it wouldn't have been AS bad? Lashing out means to harm someone, to which Frecklewish did to Mapleshade in front of her children. And even if she didn't physically hurt Mapleshade she still took disgusting low shots at the kits because of who the father was. Calling them "half-clan creatures" which is pretty much the equivalent of dehumanizing. Mapleshade never got a chance to plea her case against the accusation before Frecklewish attacked her. And even when she did she never had a chance period. Oakstar, before even speaking about the prophecy, tells Mapleshade she can't expect his forgiveness because of who the father was. Frecklewish wanted the kits gone because of who the father was. And Ravenwing used the prophecy as means to justify his accusations in the first place. I find it hard to see how this wouldn't be AS bad, especially if the results are the same regardless of what led up to it. Her lying or not is just a factor in this scenario that doesn't change the outcome, it's not even relevant. Say that Mapleshade was the only one punished, can we actually be okay with the idea that ThunderClan would have kept those kits safe or treated them properly? I highly doubt Frecklewish wouldn't still continue to treat them scornfully, along with the rest of the clans, but who knows, maybe Oakstar would still be keen on using them as weapons against their own father. If it wasn't going to be as bad, then that's like saying lying by omission isn't AS bad as lying out right. Like I said before, I agree the outcome would’ve been the same. I do think Frecklewish still would’ve lashed out otherwise, but maybe she wouldn’t have attacked Mapleshade in the same way. Yes, the fact that Appledusk is the father is the main reason for the reaction from ThunderClan, but her lying to her Clan is part of the reason too. You cannot deny that. Like I said before, it isn’t the sole reason. The reaction is a compilation of: 1. Mapleshade breaking the Warrior Code by having a Half Clan relationship 2. The fact that this cat is from RIVERCLAN, a Clan in which ThunderClan has had a rivalry with over Sunningrocks 3. Mapleshade lying for two moons about the kits’ father, going along with the misconception that the father is Birchface 4. Mapleshade allowing the Clan to believe the kits are Birchface’s 5. The ultimate fact that the true father of the kits was the cat who had accidentally killed Birchface and Flowerpaw It’s not one factor or the other. It is all of these factors building off on each other that led to rage and bitterness towards Mapleshade from the entirety of ThunderClan. The fact that Mapleshade didn’t think she’d get punished for any of this is beyond me. Frecklewish acted in a sudden rage. I don’t think she should’ve attacked Mapleshade in front of her kits or called them half-Clan creatures, but she was blinded by rage and acted wrongfully. Mapleshade also is blinded by rage and acts wrongfully later on. They were both in the wrong here. I am NOT saying what Frecklewish said or did wasn’t wrong. It absolutely was. But I am saying that Mapleshade made her own situation worse by allowing the Clan to believe that the kits were Birchface’s for her own selfish reasons. I never denied that there weren't other factors in play. What I'm saying is that regardless of if those factors were changed or not, at the end of the day the result would have been the same. Solely because of who the father was. That is my point. And it still doesn't justify their treatment of a queen and her kits., but especially the kits.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 3, 2021 1:12:18 GMT -5
Like I said before, I agree the outcome would’ve been the same. I do think Frecklewish still would’ve lashed out otherwise, but maybe she wouldn’t have attacked Mapleshade in the same way. Yes, the fact that Appledusk is the father is the main reason for the reaction from ThunderClan, but her lying to her Clan is part of the reason too. You cannot deny that. Like I said before, it isn’t the sole reason. The reaction is a compilation of: 1. Mapleshade breaking the Warrior Code by having a Half Clan relationship 2. The fact that this cat is from RIVERCLAN, a Clan in which ThunderClan has had a rivalry with over Sunningrocks 3. Mapleshade lying for two moons about the kits’ father, going along with the misconception that the father is Birchface 4. Mapleshade allowing the Clan to believe the kits are Birchface’s 5. The ultimate fact that the true father of the kits was the cat who had accidentally killed Birchface and Flowerpaw It’s not one factor or the other. It is all of these factors building off on each other that led to rage and bitterness towards Mapleshade from the entirety of ThunderClan. The fact that Mapleshade didn’t think she’d get punished for any of this is beyond me. Frecklewish acted in a sudden rage. I don’t think she should’ve attacked Mapleshade in front of her kits or called them half-Clan creatures, but she was blinded by rage and acted wrongfully. Mapleshade also is blinded by rage and acts wrongfully later on. They were both in the wrong here. I am NOT saying what Frecklewish said or did wasn’t wrong. It absolutely was. But I am saying that Mapleshade made her own situation worse by allowing the Clan to believe that the kits were Birchface’s for her own selfish reasons. I never denied that there weren't other factors in play. What I'm saying is that regardless of if those factors were changed or not, at the end of the day the result would have been the same. Solely because of who the father was. That is my point. And it still doesn't justify their treatment of a queen and her kits., but especially the kits. And I agree with you. I’m sorry for assuming that. You made it seem like Appledusk being the father was the only reason in play. And I agree, Mapleshade and her kits were wronged in this situation, especially the kits. They had no control over the situation they were born into and also had little idea as to what was going on while Mapleshade did. Mapleshade knew what she was doing was wrong. Falling in love with Appledusk and having his kits. But she did it anyways and thought she might find a way make out it scot-free. ThunderClan’s treatment and the subsequent drowning of Mapleshade’s kits was absolutely horrible, but Mapleshade knew what she was doing. She knew falling in love with Appledusk was wrong. She knew the river was dangerous, and yet she still took the risk. She knew that there was a possibility her kits would drown in a flooded river during a storm, but once it happened she couldn’t accept it after the fact. She almost drowned herself and would have if it wasn’t for the RiverClan patrol showing up just in time. What I cannot comprehend is Mapleshade’s later actions. Her delusions and her killing spree. None of her victims deserved to be killed. She went absolutely mad over something she knew could possibly happen. She had delusions that she had to kill her kits for them to go to StarClan, but what innocent kits wouldn’t be let into StarClan? What kits would be like “mother, I want murder”?? Like??? And then her actions and words towards other cats such as Crookedstar and Goosefeather make it hard for me to like her. Crookedstar can’t help who his great grandparents were!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 3, 2021 1:17:29 GMT -5
Whole plan? No, I disagree. The idea was pushed onto her from Frecklewish, her original plan was to keep the father a secret to herself then tell her clan the truth. Mapleshade believed that StarClan was offering her a way to help raise her kits, but she was still unable to find herself lying to her clanmates out right, so she did it by omission. I find it highly unlikely the clans would be so eager to kick out apprentices over kits, who are reliant on their mother. Apprentices are old enough to follow the code, fight and die for their clans, and serve their leaders. Exiling them, when they're no longer dependent on their mother would make them look even worse imo. Especially when at that point, it's Mapleshade who without a doubt could have taken all the blame. It's like the idea of Leafpool's secret getting out while the three weren't warriors for long, what are they going to do? Exile the three? It would have made more sense to exile Leafpool. But then again, there's no use crying over spilt milk at that point, or so to speak. Kits are what bind two cats together, it takes two to tango after all. Appledusk told Mapleshade he loved her, so why else would she be angry at another woman trying to hit on him when he's supposed to be in a relationship with her? The kits are proof of their love, is it not? Mapleshade didn't exactly expect Appledusk to cheat on her, and even have another set of kits on the way. I hardly see Mapleshade seeing the kits as proof of her relationship between her now ex-beloved, or equivalent to her now ex-husband, as proof of their relatioship to be as bad as, or on the same levels of Oakstar literally wanting to raise kits to murder Appledusk one day out of revenge. Even Mapleshade pointed out how their behavior was against the code, but both Oak and Freckle could care less and even defended the idea. Mapleshade still planned on telling the truth anyways even after Frecklewish’s misconception. If she waited even longer for the truth to come out, I believe cats such as Oakstar and Frecklewish would’ve been even angrier with her since she went along with the lie for even longer, which means they held onto the belief that Birchface was living through the kits longer. I was addressing how Mapleshade would’ve been treated, but I’m not sure about the kits. I would like an AU where this happened. Either they stay in the Clan, get exiled with their mother over parentage like they were as kits, or try to stay but then leave to join their mother after being treated horribly by the Clan. And I think the latter would be most likely. I am not justifying anyone’s actions. My point is that Mapleshade’s own reasons were selfish as well, nor did I say it is as bad as Oakstar’s own selfish intentions. Mapleshade should not have gotten herself in this situation in the first place. And for all we know, Appledusk likely was already with Reedshine before hooking up with Mapleshade. She shouldn’t have gotten with Appledusk, period. And she knew she shouldn’t. But she did anyways, and surprised when she was punished for it. You play with fire, you might get burned, I guess. You're right, Mapleshade shouldn't have gotten herself into the situation she was in in the first place, she should have followed the code and everything would have been fine. But we're past that point in the story, since chapter one of the novella. From the moment Appledusk became enemy number one in ThunderClan and blamed for the deaths of Birchface and Flowerpaw, despite it being an accident, Mapleshade never had a chance. A little leniency for a queen and her kits shouldn't be impossible.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 3, 2021 1:30:05 GMT -5
I never denied that there weren't other factors in play. What I'm saying is that regardless of if those factors were changed or not, at the end of the day the result would have been the same. Solely because of who the father was. That is my point. And it still doesn't justify their treatment of a queen and her kits., but especially the kits. And I agree with you. I’m sorry for assuming that. You made it seem like Appledusk being the father was the only reason in play. And I agree, Mapleshade and her kits were wronged in this situation, especially the kits. They had no control over the situation they were born into and also had little idea as to what was going on while Mapleshade did. Mapleshade knew what she was doing was wrong. Falling in love with Appledusk and having his kits. But she did it anyways and thought she might find a way make out it scot-free. ThunderClan’s treatment and the subsequent drowning of Mapleshade’s kits was absolutely horrible, but Mapleshade knew what she was doing. She knew falling in love with Appledusk was wrong. She knew the river was dangerous, and yet she still took the risk. She knew that there was a possibility her kits would drown in a flooded river during a storm, but once it happened she couldn’t accept it after the fact. She almost drowned herself and would have if it wasn’t for the RiverClan patrol showing up just in time. What I cannot comprehend is Mapleshade’s later actions. Her delusions and her killing spree. None of her victims deserved to be killed. She went absolutely mad over something she knew could possibly happen. She had delusions that she had to kill her kits for them to go to StarClan, but what innocent kits wouldn’t be let into StarClan? What kits would be like “mother, I want murder”?? Like??? And then her actions and words towards other cats such as Crookedstar and Goosefeather make it hard for me to like her. Crookedstar can’t help who his great grandparents were! When did she ever think she would get off scott-free. Just because she had hopes for a better future for her kits, and her clan, doesn't mean that she expected to get off scott-free. She very much showed guilt during her trial, she very much didn't even want to outright lie to her clanmates. She wanted her kits to become strong loyal warriors to her clan, and then possibly finally bring peace between two feuding clans one day. I hardly see that as villainous like so many people claim, they think that she's some sort of master manipulator prior to her spiral, when it's not even close. It's just a queen, over her head, and delusional. What other choice should she have made when she was casted out of ThunderClan. Her going to RiverClan was her best shot, out of a bunch of other horrible choices. Because it didn't matter what she chose to do, her kits should have never been in a situation like that form the start. Mapleshade may have lied, but it was Oakstar who casted her and her kits out into a storm. It was Frecklewish who stalked after her, saw her drowning, then left them to their fates despite knowing her there was a patrol near by. It was Appledusk who broke the code with her, claimed he loved her yet cheated on her and threw her away to save himself. As I said before, it takes two to tango. After losing her kits, her home, her mate, and being treated like trash, and even ready to waste away in a ditch, it's obvious that Mapleshade's mental state has deteriorated. She went through traumatic things, yet people never acknowledge that. So her hallucinating and thinking that getting revenge would put her kits to rest properly makes sense to her. She's not thinking even remotely logically at that point, she's far gone. I don't see anything wrong with people being angry at Mapleshade the moment she took another cats life. My issue is people that blame the entirety of the situation prior to her exile on her, while also justifying the actions of the cats that treated her like trash. That is my issue. When people ignore the the fact that Mapleshade herself is also a victim simply because she became a villain, it's nonsensical imo.
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Post by Aqua on May 3, 2021 7:30:52 GMT -5
Mapleshade chose to break the warrior code and lie to her clan at the wrong time. She chose to have kits with Appledusk, planned to tell the truth later about her kits, KNOWING that Oakstar wanted to use them for revenge. She chose to lie about Birchface and allowed the clan to believe he was their father. She chose to let her kits play in the river outside of her own camp.
Mapleshade constantly breaks the code, and lied to her clan while they were still grieving over a well respected warrior. No, she doesn't deserve to be exiled, and her kits were completely innocent, but she didn't think twice about ANYTHING. Mapleshade brought 95% of her problems on her own, and had no one to blame but herself. The rest was just an unfortunate timing of everyone else figuring out something was off about the kits, but remember Mapleshade was the one who didn't protect her kits all that well either and treated them like prizes to solve everyone's problems. Plenty of times she thought everything would be okay and she'd be off scott-free. PLENTY. I really don't like Mapleshade and her stupidity. She didn't think twice about anything, and was unrealistic about how everything would come out once she planned to tell the truth. She really should've just moved them to RiverClan; they'd have been treated better there, and she would have been happy with Appledusk.
She's not innocent. But most of her problems were her own fault because she didn't think twice. And none of this would've happened if she was loyal to her clan in the first place. /: Mapleshade really didn't have the right to blame everyone for the problems she caused. And she had the chance to live a better life with Myler, and took that down as well. Myler was nice and cared about her, but Mapleshade was a jerk and turned that help down. She's stupid, doesn't think twice, and blames everyone for her own problems she caused alone. She was unsympathetic with everyone except herself.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 3, 2021 9:12:47 GMT -5
And I agree with you. I’m sorry for assuming that. You made it seem like Appledusk being the father was the only reason in play. And I agree, Mapleshade and her kits were wronged in this situation, especially the kits. They had no control over the situation they were born into and also had little idea as to what was going on while Mapleshade did. Mapleshade knew what she was doing was wrong. Falling in love with Appledusk and having his kits. But she did it anyways and thought she might find a way make out it scot-free. ThunderClan’s treatment and the subsequent drowning of Mapleshade’s kits was absolutely horrible, but Mapleshade knew what she was doing. She knew falling in love with Appledusk was wrong. She knew the river was dangerous, and yet she still took the risk. She knew that there was a possibility her kits would drown in a flooded river during a storm, but once it happened she couldn’t accept it after the fact. She almost drowned herself and would have if it wasn’t for the RiverClan patrol showing up just in time. What I cannot comprehend is Mapleshade’s later actions. Her delusions and her killing spree. None of her victims deserved to be killed. She went absolutely mad over something she knew could possibly happen. She had delusions that she had to kill her kits for them to go to StarClan, but what innocent kits wouldn’t be let into StarClan? What kits would be like “mother, I want murder”?? Like??? And then her actions and words towards other cats such as Crookedstar and Goosefeather make it hard for me to like her. Crookedstar can’t help who his great grandparents were! When did she ever think she would get off scott-free. Just because she had hopes for a better future for her kits, and her clan, doesn't mean that she expected to get off scott-free. She very much showed guilt during her trial, she very much didn't even want to outright lie to her clanmates. She wanted her kits to become strong loyal warriors to her clan, and then possibly finally bring peace between two feuding clans one day. I hardly see that as villainous like so many people claim, they think that she's some sort of master manipulator prior to her spiral, when it's not even close. It's just a queen, over her head, and delusional. What other choice should she have made when she was casted out of ThunderClan. Her going to RiverClan was her best shot, out of a bunch of other horrible choices. Because it didn't matter what she chose to do, her kits should have never been in a situation like that form the start. Mapleshade may have lied, but it was Oakstar who casted her and her kits out into a storm. It was Frecklewish who stalked after her, saw her drowning, then left them to their fates despite knowing her there was a patrol near by. It was Appledusk who broke the code with her, claimed he loved her yet cheated on her and threw her away to save himself. As I said before, it takes two to tango. After losing her kits, her home, her mate, and being treated like trash, and even ready to waste away in a ditch, it's obvious that Mapleshade's mental state has deteriorated. She went through traumatic things, yet people never acknowledge that. So her hallucinating and thinking that getting revenge would put her kits to rest properly makes sense to her. She's not thinking even remotely logically at that point, she's far gone. I don't see anything wrong with people being angry at Mapleshade the moment she took another cats life. My issue is people that blame the entirety of the situation prior to her exile on her, while also justifying the actions of the cats that treated her like trash. That is my issue. When people ignore the the fact that Mapleshade herself is also a victim simply because she became a villain, it's nonsensical imo. She absolutely thought she could’ve gotten away with it. Mapleshade thought that Oakstar would understand once the kits became old enough to be apprenticed. She also believed that the kits would be accepted by both ThunderClan and RiverClan, ending the Sunningrocks feud. She also showed carelessness by bringing young kits to the river with the risk of danger outside of ThunderClan camp and the risk of being caught, which did happen. Mapleshade did not think logically at some points. Mapleshade absolutely is a victim prior to her killing spree, but we need to remember she got herself into this situation. She shouldn’t have gotten with Appledusk in the first place.
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Post by Card against Humanity on May 3, 2021 9:46:54 GMT -5
i don't think anyone would deny she was in the wrong tbh. whether she deserved everything that happened to her is a different story
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 3, 2021 10:38:02 GMT -5
ppl keep talking about oakstar like he specifically wanted to raise the kits to assassinate appledusk, but wasnt it basically "the best revenge is to raise these kits as strong warriors to show rival clans that we will always defend what is ours" or something.
correct me if im wrong, i dont remember specifically what oakstar said, but i dont remember it being as specific as "were gonna train these kits to kill appledusk"
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