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Post by MadameDelune on Apr 23, 2021 15:43:07 GMT -5
I mean Vicky really sent Thistleclaw there for having interest in baby Spotted but Dustpelt got to go to StarClan after his relationship with Ferncloud? Even though she was also extremely young when he started to catch feelings for her?
I’m just still mad about Spottedleaf’s heart I’m sorry y’all
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Apr 23, 2021 15:54:33 GMT -5
I don't think Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest because of what happened with Spottedleaf - or at the very least, it wasn't the only deciding factor. After all, Thistleclaw had been sent to the Dark Forest before the Erins even came up with Spottedleaf's Heart, so there's no way that was the only deciding factor. From what I understand, Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest because he was training in the Dark Forest and because he was bad at heart - he didn't seem to care much for the well being of his Clan in Bluestar's Prophecy.
Dustpelt never trained in the Dark Forest, and was a genuinely good guy. Yeah, he was a bit of an ass in the first arc, but he was a good cat who was completely loyal to his Clan. There is absolutely no reason for him to go to the Dark Forest.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 23, 2021 15:55:00 GMT -5
I guess you could explain it as Dustpelt and Ferncloud actually entering a relationship when Ferncloud became a warrior. Dustpelt had feelings for her when she was young, yes, but he didn't try anything until she was old enough, unlike what Thistleclaw tried to do. It's still a bit weird but at least they were both consenting adults when they became mates.
That and I don't think Thistleclaw was canonically sent into the Dark Forest for his relationship with Spottedleaf? I had assumed it was for his bloodthirst and evil nature, and considering that we saw him in the Dark Forest before the novella even came out.
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Post by MadameDelune on Apr 23, 2021 16:02:09 GMT -5
I don't think Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest because of what happened with Spottedleaf - or at the very least, it wasn't the only deciding factor. After all, Thistleclaw had been sent to the Dark Forest before the Erins even came up with Spottedleaf's Heart, so there's no way that was the only deciding factor. From what I understand, Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest because he was training in the Dark Forest and because he was bad at heart - he didn't seem to care much for the well being of his Clan in Bluestar's Prophecy. Dustpelt never trained in the Dark Forest, and was a genuinely good guy. Yeah, he was a bit of an ass in the first arc, but he was a good cat who was completely loyal to his Clan. There is absolutely no reason for him to go to the Dark Forest. Vicky actually stated that it was exactly the reason why he went to the dark forest.
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Post by MadameDelune on Apr 23, 2021 16:03:49 GMT -5
Here’s her quote actually: “...I am intrigued by the twin themes of criticism, that I have never really proved why Thistleclaw deserved to go to the Dark Forest, and that I have included something as nasty as a very young apprentice being approached by a much older warrior. Well, this is why Thistleclaw was consigned to the Place of No Stars. For Spottedleaf, becoming a medicine cat was also finding a place of sanctuary from cats with confusing, sinister motivations and ulterior motives.”
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Post by Cheetahstar on Apr 23, 2021 16:06:03 GMT -5
Here’s her quote actually: “...I am intrigued by the twin themes of criticism, that I have never really proved why Thistleclaw deserved to go to the Dark Forest, and that I have included something as nasty as a very young apprentice being approached by a much older warrior. Well, this is why Thistleclaw was consigned to the Place of No Stars. For Spottedleaf, becoming a medicine cat was also finding a place of sanctuary from cats with confusing, sinister motivations and ulterior motives.” oh my god that makes me upset
they decided to handle such a dark topic
and they did it so
poorly?
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 23, 2021 16:06:39 GMT -5
During A Shadow in RiverClan Ferncloud herself confirms that her and Dustpelt became mates only recently after she had been named as a warrior. While him having an obvious crush on her in the TPB arc during which she had still been an apprentice was a bit weird for me, it is nothing compared to what Thistleclaw did to Spottedleaf when she was just a kit/apprentice. Also, like both 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 and Hollyfall have already stated, the actual reason for Thistleclaw going to the Dark Forest was his bloddthirsty nature and ruthless treatment of others, which had nothing to do with how he treated Spottedleaf as her novella and thus their problematic relationship dynamic was also established in 2017, after OotS had already been long wrapped up for about five years.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 23, 2021 16:52:43 GMT -5
vicky was in the wrong for spottedleaf's heart and everything she said about it, even thistle's reason for being in the dark forest. to me, his reason for being there will ALWAYS be about being power hungry, not for being a creep to a kit...if someone's already a villain for being a power hungry, violence loving jerk, then why tf would u add something to that to say "no THIS is the reason why he's in hell instead" and it just adds NOTHING to him? it's so dumb. tangent here: all this does is remind me of adam from RWBY. adam's a villain because he's a flawed ideal having terrorist. why did they need to turn him into a stalker ex bf to justify his villainy when he ALREADY had a reason to be a villain in his terrorism? makes no sense to do this to ANY character.
dustpelt showed concern for fernpaw, but he didn't do anything beyond that. plus, he's only 9 months older than ferncloud. it's not as creepy as thistle and spotted or leopard and pine. dust had been an apprentice for around 3 months by the time fern was even born. dust doesnt interact with her until she's an apprentice (she should have been made an apprentice at the end of forest of secrets instead of in the beginning of rising storm), and even then it's just a convo that fireheart doesnt know the context of. and the only reason fire was nervous about it is bc dustpelt was close to tigerclaw's crowd at the time (longtail, darkstripe, etc.) then in the next book dangerous path, it's noted dustpelt has a liking toward her. by then, ferncloud is almost a year old. dustpelt never had an interaction with her when she was a kit. only when she was an apprentice. and since they're only 9 months apart in age, it's not as creepy as the others. plus, him being noted to like her when she's almost a year old is way better than saying he liked her right away when she just became an apprentice (them talking here and there isnt worrying imo). plus she'd be over a year when they become mates, then have kits. 1-2 years old for fern.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Apr 23, 2021 16:57:18 GMT -5
Here’s her quote actually: “...I am intrigued by the twin themes of criticism, that I have never really proved why Thistleclaw deserved to go to the Dark Forest, and that I have included something as nasty as a very young apprentice being approached by a much older warrior. Well, this is why Thistleclaw was consigned to the Place of No Stars. For Spottedleaf, becoming a medicine cat was also finding a place of sanctuary from cats with confusing, sinister motivations and ulterior motives.” If I'm being honest, this really just sounds like Vicky coming up with a bs excuse because she never came up with a legitimate reason for Thistleclaw to be in the Dark Forest, and she wanted a way to explain away the abomination that is Spottedleaf's Heart. Despite that, like the others have said, Dustpelt never actually approached Ferncloud in a romantic way until she was a full warrior. Yes, he is noted to have a liking for her, but he never actually did anything, and instead seemed to be expressing concern for her well-being more than anything else. Aside from that, Dustpelt is a good cat at heart who was always loyal to his Clan and the warrior code, whereas Thistleclaw was... not so much.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 23, 2021 16:58:38 GMT -5
Once again, this is why I hate Spottedleaf's Heart, and I honest to goodness can't tolerate.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 23, 2021 17:02:39 GMT -5
Here’s her quote actually: “...I am intrigued by the twin themes of criticism, that I have never really proved why Thistleclaw deserved to go to the Dark Forest, and that I have included something as nasty as a very young apprentice being approached by a much older warrior. Well, this is why Thistleclaw was consigned to the Place of No Stars. For Spottedleaf, becoming a medicine cat was also finding a place of sanctuary from cats with confusing, sinister motivations and ulterior motives.” If I'm being honest, this really just sounds like Vicky coming up with a bs excuse because she never came up with a legitimate reason for Thistleclaw to be in the Dark Forest, and she wanted a way to explain away the abomination that is Spottedleaf's Heart. Despite that, like the others have said, Dustpelt never actually approached Ferncloud in a romantic way until she was a full warrior. Yes, he is noted to have a liking for her, but he never actually did anything, and instead seemed to be expressing concern for her well-being more than anything else. Aside from that, Dustpelt is a good cat at heart who was always loyal to his Clan and the warrior code, whereas Thistleclaw was... not so much. thistle's reason being power grabbing and preferring violence as a solution was good enough for me so idk why they had to add that stupid novella onto him for no reason :\ all of vicky's work in spottedleaf's novella and her answers/retcons r pointless to me and i will refuse to acknowledge it as canon.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Apr 23, 2021 17:08:02 GMT -5
Vicky, I love you, but please stop adding onto the canon like that. It only make everything more worse and confusing.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 23, 2021 17:22:13 GMT -5
Vicky, I love you, but please stop adding onto the canon like that. It only make everything more worse and confusing. I feel like she only did it because of the controversy. She went from, I made an amazing new novel about Spottedleaf! To, oh yeah I totally intended it to come off like that, just to totally prove it's the reason why Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest. Totally wasn't just some excuse I added to canon, to help save face from all the backlash, totally~
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 23, 2021 17:36:19 GMT -5
Thistleclaw was corrupted by the Dark Forest enough that he eventually couldn't leave it even if he wanted to by the end. Same thing that happened to Antpelt and the same thing that Lionblaze cautions in TBC. The Dark Forest poisons a cat's soul with every exposure, and Thistleclaw went there longer than any living cat we've seen, I think. It was his drug to try to drown out his pain, but in the end it condemned him.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 23, 2021 18:10:51 GMT -5
Thistleclaw was corrupted by the Dark Forest enough that he eventually couldn't leave it even if he wanted to by the end. Same thing that happened to Antpelt and the same thing that Lionblaze cautions in TBC. The Dark Forest poisons a cat's soul with every exposure, and Thistleclaw went there longer than any living cat we've seen, I think. It was his drug to try to drown out his pain, but in the end it condemned him. Seriously. This would have been a perfect explanation for Thistleclaw being stuck in there. He went there too much out of despair after Snowfur's death and got dragged down. Instead...they did SH. Which is trash and I refuse to acknowledge it. I'm pretty sure Vicky made that book just because she hates Thistleclaw
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Post by Brindlefern on Apr 23, 2021 19:58:13 GMT -5
Here’s her quote actually: “...I am intrigued by the twin themes of criticism, that I have never really proved why Thistleclaw deserved to go to the Dark Forest, and that I have included something as nasty as a very young apprentice being approached by a much older warrior. Well, this is why Thistleclaw was consigned to the Place of No Stars. For Spottedleaf, becoming a medicine cat was also finding a place of sanctuary from cats with confusing, sinister motivations and ulterior motives.” If I'm being honest, this really just sounds like Vicky coming up with a bs excuse because she never came up with a legitimate reason for Thistleclaw to be in the Dark Forest, and she wanted a way to explain away the abomination that is Spottedleaf's Heart. It really does. Then again during the SH fiasco she practically backpedaled hard about it when she got backlash about it. So it coming off as a BS excuse isn't a surprise to me considering it IS a BS excuse.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Apr 23, 2021 22:13:05 GMT -5
spottedleaf’s heart always came across to me like Vicky realized people thought bluestar’s hatred of Thistleclaw was over-the-top and came up with a bs reason he went to the dark forest. this just makes me think that more lmao
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 23, 2021 22:41:12 GMT -5
spottedleaf’s heart always came across to me like Vicky realized people thought bluestar’s hatred of Thistleclaw was over-the-top and came up with a bs reason he went to the dark forest. this just makes me think that more lmao i havent read BP in a while but im pretty sure thistle being a violence loving jerk was enough for bluestar to be concerned. given that she has a prophecy knowing she would win deputyship over thistle, i can see why she would draw the conclusion that a guy who prefers violence than diplomacy would flood thunderclan with blood or whatever it was. plus, her personal stake: her sister loved this violence loving jerk. she had every right to be upset and concerned about it. what if thistle was faking loving snowfur to get under bluefur's skin? imo, thistle saying snow and white were weaklings made me think he didnt truly love them and was just too in love with violence and strength instead. why would he be mates with a cat he thought was weak if he is a cat who values strength and violence and power above all else?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 23, 2021 23:21:58 GMT -5
spottedleaf’s heart always came across to me like Vicky realized people thought bluestar’s hatred of Thistleclaw was over-the-top and came up with a bs reason he went to the dark forest. this just makes me think that more lmao i havent read BP in a while but im pretty sure thistle being a violence loving jerk was enough for bluestar to be concerned. given that she has a prophecy knowing she would win deputyship over thistle, i can see why she would draw the conclusion that a guy who prefers violence than diplomacy would flood thunderclan with blood or whatever it was. plus, her personal stake: her sister loved this violence loving jerk. she had every right to be upset and concerned about it. what if thistle was faking loving snowfur to get under bluefur's skin? imo, thistle saying snow and white were weaklings made me think he didnt truly love them and was just too in love with violence and strength instead. why would he be mates with a cat he thought was weak if he is a cat who values strength and violence and power above all else? The issue isn't that he deemed them weak, he deemed them not suited for something like the Dark Forest. At the end of the day he didn't get his mate nor his son involved in the Dark Forest and their shenanigans. Also Snowfur's death was something that heavily affected him to the point he was blinded by hatred and blamed Bluestar. He didn't even like her being around his kid because of it either. And it seems that Snowfur's behavior and personality gets overlooked a lot too, people say that Thistleclaw was aggressive but Snowfur was almost just as battle hungry, just that she had morals is all. The actual problem is that, prior to Crooked's SE, there was literally no inherit reason for him to go to the Dark Forest. He was an aggressive and ambitious cat, but it didn't make him an evil cat. So they revealed he was one of the DF trainees thanks to Silverhawk's influence. But then the final battle came out, proved that cats can be led astray, and manipulated by the DF and not all trainees are inherently bad because they used to be there. This is applied to both Ivypool and Lionblaze's characters even. So eventually...we get to Spottedleaf's Heart. It honestly doesn't help that the Erins really did not know what to do with Thistleclaw's character, since initially he was a StarClan cat, then they said Bluestar probably chased him out, then it was said he went straight to the Dark Forest. His character, after Bluestar's SE, is pretty inconsistent.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 24, 2021 9:13:50 GMT -5
potentially unpopular opinion but thistleclaw didn't need "dark forest trainee" on his resume to be a bad cat. they could have shown specific instances of him allowing hunger for power/glory overcome the warrior code (needlessly killing in battle, willingness to put clanmates in danger for his own agenda, etc) and that would suffice.
i do feel like training in the DF is becoming the catch-all explanation for villains. twice now they're effectively retconned OG characters backstories to incorporate DF influence in some way rather than relying on character flaws. it's dissatisfying, imo.
and also contradictory to earlier canon. it was previously hinted that DF inhabitants couldn't interact due to the structure of the afterlife meant to keep them isolated and alone (Tigerstar's conversation with Darkstripe in Sunset, the unknown voice to Mapleshade in MV). and through PO3-OOTS, the DF training slowly grows over the two arcs into a fully-fledged system/community, initially beginning just with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar and gradually incorporating other members. in TNP i swear Tigerstar talks about walking in his sons' dreams like it was a previously unknown ability. but spottedleaf's heart shows that this level of socialization and training amongst DF cats was already well established ages before. that annoys me.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 24, 2021 10:00:10 GMT -5
potentially unpopular opinion but thistleclaw didn't need "dark forest trainee" on his resume to be a bad cat. they could have shown specific instances of him allowing hunger for power/glory overcome the warrior code (needlessly killing in battle, willingness to put clanmates in danger for his own agenda, etc) and that would suffice. i do feel like training in the DF is becoming the catch-all explanation for villains. twice now they're effectively retconned OG characters backstories to incorporate DF influence in some way rather than relying on character flaws. it's dissatisfying, imo. and also contradictory to earlier canon. it was previously hinted that DF inhabitants couldn't interact due to the structure of the afterlife meant to keep them isolated and alone (Tigerstar's conversation with Darkstripe in Sunset, the unknown voice to Mapleshade in MV). and through PO3-OOTS, the DF training slowly grows over the two arcs into a fully-fledged system/community, initially beginning just with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar and gradually incorporating other members. in TNP i swear Tigerstar talks about walking in his sons' dreams like it was a previously unknown ability. but spottedleaf's heart shows that this level of socialization and training amongst DF cats was already well established ages before. that annoys me. Yes, the retcons hit TNP hard. In TNP, the Dark Forest was so impossibly vast and empty that no one could find each other except by dumb luck or the dream training. However, the fault really lies with Crookedstar's Promise. That is the one which established precedence before Spottedleaf's Heart. Coincidentally it was also used as a stick to whack Thistleclaw with.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 24, 2021 13:26:44 GMT -5
potentially unpopular opinion but thistleclaw didn't need "dark forest trainee" on his resume to be a bad cat. they could have shown specific instances of him allowing hunger for power/glory overcome the warrior code (needlessly killing in battle, willingness to put clanmates in danger for his own agenda, etc) and that would suffice. i do feel like training in the DF is becoming the catch-all explanation for villains. twice now they're effectively retconned OG characters backstories to incorporate DF influence in some way rather than relying on character flaws. it's dissatisfying, imo. and also contradictory to earlier canon. it was previously hinted that DF inhabitants couldn't interact due to the structure of the afterlife meant to keep them isolated and alone (Tigerstar's conversation with Darkstripe in Sunset, the unknown voice to Mapleshade in MV). and through PO3-OOTS, the DF training slowly grows over the two arcs into a fully-fledged system/community, initially beginning just with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar and gradually incorporating other members. in TNP i swear Tigerstar talks about walking in his sons' dreams like it was a previously unknown ability. but spottedleaf's heart shows that this level of socialization and training amongst DF cats was already well established ages before. that annoys me. Yes, the retcons hit TNP hard. In TNP, the Dark Forest was so impossibly vast and empty that no one could find each other except by dumb luck or the dream training. However, the fault really lies with Crookedstar's Promise. That is the one which established precedence before Spottedleaf's Heart. Coincidentally it was also used as a stick to whack Thistleclaw with. i can kinda forgive CP for mapleshade's intrusion. its suggested that the veil is difficult to pierce, but that doesn't necessarily mean tigerstar had to be the first. and it makes sense that cats with unfinished business like he and mapleshade would be most likely to achieve it. but yeah i cant forgive CP for including the scene with the DF trainees, it just wasn't necessary.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on May 6, 2021 13:41:58 GMT -5
Actually, Thistleclaw was grooming Spottedpaw, and Dustpelt and Fernpaw were developing a relationship together. Also, Thistleclaw killed a cat in The Dark Forest for no reason, and he just was a very bad cat. Dustpelt wasn't.
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on May 6, 2021 17:14:08 GMT -5
Dustpelt is one of the greatest warriors to ever live.
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