|
Post by Aqua on Apr 23, 2021 0:37:01 GMT -5
These days Squirrelflight gets a lot of crap because people are annoyed with her because of the fandom, but I know there are some people that love her, and that's okay! I don't like her that much anymore. I know she means well and has good intentions, but the books act like she's always right about everything, and frankly, it's kind of annoying.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 23, 2021 0:42:49 GMT -5
yes. squirrelflight is extremely overrated and has over stayed her welcome. plus, lately, the books focus too much on her when her focus should have ended years ago. i dont understand the series and fandom's obsession with her...i don't believe she was ever this amazing character to begin with and it's just gotten worse in my opinion as the series goes on and keeps giving her overdone focus.
edit: also, u're right. the books and fandom always have to make her right. and if someone in the books ever points out her flaws, it's always "poor squirrelflight" this and that, etc. it's annoying imo.
|
|
|
Post by Aqua on Apr 23, 2021 0:53:08 GMT -5
yes. squirrelflight is extremely overrated and has over stayed her welcome. plus, lately, the books focus too much on her when her focus should have ended years ago. i dont understand the series and fandom's obsession with her...i don't believe she was ever this amazing character to begin with and it's just gotten worse in my opinion as the series goes on and keeps giving her overdone focus. edit: also, u're right. the books and fandom always have to make her right. and if someone in the books ever points out her flaws, it's always "poor squirrelflight" this and that, etc. it's annoying imo. Well, the pity party isn't what bothers me; what bothers me the most about the way how the fandom treats Squirrelflight is because they praise her for everything she does, even if her actions were wrong. I can understand her actions for everything, even defending the Sisters, but I can't defend her for lying to her own mate about the Three. It's annoying when I see fans paint Bramblestar as an asshole and say "If he was a better mate to her, she'd have told the truth from the beginning" but I feel like people forget she was terrible to him from the start. Bramblestar was more upset about Squirrelflight not trusting him than being lied to, and even said so himself that he would have helped her if she told the truth, so it's frustrating how people think he's so ~cold~ by not speaking to her for a while after that. I can understand his behavior in SqH. I'm not really on anyone's side in that book, but giving Bramblestar crap for the way how he behaved about the Three? No. Squirrelflight was completely wrong for this case, EVEN IF SHE HAD GOOD INTENTIONS TO PROTECT LEAFPOOL. I don't even care about Bramblestar, but honestly, the fandom kinda made me lose my taste for her character over the years. This fandom has also ruined other characters for me as well, but I won't get into that since this is a Squirrelflight topic.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Apr 23, 2021 4:12:19 GMT -5
Well, this thread is going to be fun to watch over the next few days.
|
|
|
Post by Twilight Sparkle on Apr 23, 2021 6:10:02 GMT -5
A lot of people defend Squirrelflight because she had good intentions for the choices she made (she didn't want Brambleclaw getting too close with Hawkfrost since she didn't trust the latter, she wanted to protect Brambleclaw from the truth about the Three, she didn't want the Clans to fight the Sisters since unborn kits could be in danger), but she executed a lot of them poorly.
She was rude and pushy in the issue with Hawkfrost, she didn't have a right to withhold the truth about the Three, and in defending the Sisters she was disloyal to her Clan.
Personally, I like Squirrelflight, because she always wants to do the right thing, even if she carries them out in a poor manner. But I think she is becoming an overused character. Hopefully TBC arc would put a stop to that.
|
|
|
Post by Aqua on Apr 23, 2021 10:10:12 GMT -5
A lot of people defend Squirrelflight because she had good intentions for the choices she made (she didn't want Brambleclaw getting too close with Hawkfrost since she didn't trust the latter, she wanted to protect Brambleclaw from the truth about the Three, she didn't want the Clans to fight the Sisters since unborn kits could be in danger), but personally, she executed a lot of them poorly. She was rude and pushy in the issue with Hawkfrost, she didn't have a right to withhold the truth about the Three, and in defending the Sisters she was disloyal to her Clan. Personally, I like Squirrelflight, because she always wants to do the right thing, even if she carries them out in a poor manner. But I think she is becoming an overused character. Hopefully TBC arc would put a stop to that. People are aware Squirrelflight has good intentions. It's just kind of annoying how they'll defend her for everything and paint Bramblestar as a jerk, even if she's WRONG about it. Even if she treats others nasty, she'll get excused because she's right about it. I don't even like Bramblestar, but I'm finding myself siding with him more because of how the fandom treats her.
|
|
Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
|
Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 23, 2021 10:41:31 GMT -5
As Twilight Sparkle has already pointed out, Squirrelflight is a cat who always wants to do the right thing but I'm adding onto this by saying that she also always believes that she is doing the right thing, even when she happens to be incorrect about something or goes about it in the wrong manner. I personally, have grown rather tired of the renewed BrambleSquirrel character spotlight in this current arc and hope that they will at least ascend to StarClan soon so fans can finally focus on anything but their dysfunctional relationship dynamic and its overused drama trope. Both of them have far outstayed their welcome, in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Apr 23, 2021 10:47:25 GMT -5
Not to mention the fact that she wasn’t the only one who had good intentions, they were just different. Brambleclaw wanting to know Hawkfrost as his brother stemmed from good intentions of him just wanting to know the kin he never got to have. Squirrelflight had good intentions to not want him around Hawkfrost, but Brambleclaw also had good intentions. Squirrelflight had good intentions to protect the Three from ridicule for being from forbidden romance. But Brambleclaw had good intentions of being a father with the she-cat he loved and he trusted in her with those good intentions. Squirrelflight had good intentions when it came to the Sisters, but Bramblestar also had good intentions in terms of putting Thunderclan first and having to decide which choice was worth making in the long run with the entire clan and how the other clans would respond in mind.
This being said, the fandom only ever brings up Squirrelflight’s good intentions and ignores any other’s. They’ll do everything to villianize another character while ignoring alot of her own glaring flaws. Good intentions are indeed good, but in a Clan, your actions still affect everyone else, good or not.
|
|
|
Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 23, 2021 10:53:42 GMT -5
This subject always comes down to anyone's views. No view is true or right. It's always the fandom trying to convince eachother from what's "right" or "wrong" but most of the times it's neither one of those two. Some people will defend Bramblestar, others will defend Squirrelflight, and that's how it will go most of the time.
Personally, i'm defending Squirrelflight because i actually belive her reason for acting that way, but i won't deny she has acted some ways that are inexcusable. I won't deny, either, that Brambleclaw didin't have a reason for his actions- I just find them way less justified than his mate.
In the Hawkfrost situation, when Brambleclaw had it pointed out to his face his half-brother worked with Mudclaw to become WindClan's deputy and he continued beliving Hawkfrost was still a good guy, i'm glad Squirrelflight called him out and put him in his place.
On the lie of the Three, both of them had a reason to act the way they did, but That was to protect Bramblestar from getting his reputation ruined. He had the Clan's trust, and she knows how much he cares as not being seen as Tigerstar's son, so imagine her telling him to protect half-Clan kits. He would absolutely throw a fit because it could give him a bad social status in the Clan. (Ex. "Oh look! Tigerstar's son protecting Half-Clan kits!") This was also the same time Mousefur called a Clan meeting; The Clan was very tense from all the half-clan blood and hearing Brambleclaw lying to protect those kits would be the breaking point. I've also always seen this thrown around a lot that Squirrelflight never cared how much it hurt him, and she only used him as a daddy fodder. I think the opposite. Squirrelflight felt a lot of guilt and she never even forgave herself for hurting him so deeply. She didin't even want to do it at first; She had just been manipulated and guilt-tripped by StarClan to take in those kits.
Meanwhile, i can see from where Brambleclaw's anger is from: He trusted her once again and she broke his trust. He has every right to be angry at her.
This dosen't excuse it. But it gives me less reason to give her all the crap when i know she has such good intentions.
In the Sisters situation, i can actually see why Bramblestar is punishing her, as she went behind his back, but the moment she sometimes brought up reasonable concerns (Ex. He's literally going to lead an attack against a pregnant queen- He dosen't even want to ensure she's safe meanwhile the able bodies are attacked) She's put down and she's literally told she's his deputy- Like... He choose her because she wasn't afraid of standing up or disagreeing with him, but then he treat her like she's some apprentice who needs to be submissive?? And then he brings up the fact she wants kits when she isin't even talking about it??
Yes she's irresponsable and goes behind his back, i will admitit, but sometimes i have to admit that she isin't being treated fairly, either.
|
|
|
Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 23, 2021 11:01:47 GMT -5
But no matter my stence in this three situations, i will admit that both are too overused and their annoying back-and-forth drama is just getting me so tired... I wouldn't mind them together if their relationship wasn't so dysfunctional.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 23, 2021 11:20:04 GMT -5
Even as someone who loves Squirrelflight, I think she does. The books do seem to lean more in her favor between her and Bramblestar. When it comes to Hawkfrost for example, while Brambleclaw is portrayed as sympathetic, we're clearly meant to side with her (and anyone else who's against Hawkfrost, really, Squirrelflight is just the most vocal about it).
Similarly with the Three, she and Leafpool are both condemned for their actions while still being painted as sympathetic. Brambleclaw too, but not as much from what I can recall (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't read OotS in awhile, I just remember Lionblaze pitying both of them on occasion).
SqH is weird, because it seems like it's in Squirrelflight's favor with the way everyone else is acting, but then after she wakes from her coma, Bramblestar says, "We should never have let things get so bad." So that makes me believe that Kate was trying to make them both in the wrong, but in general, I think the book is clearly in her favor once more when it comes to the Sisters, especially since Moonlight was pregnant.
Squirrelflight clearly has good intentions, but the way she goes about certain things are certainly questionable at best.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 23, 2021 11:35:13 GMT -5
ever since moonki**i's video people can't think for themselves and throw up the same points she cherrypicked over and over to justify squirrelflight and it's the most annoying thing i've ever had to go through in a fandom. If someoone swoons over squirrel because of "mean abusive bramble" one more time- People were hating on Bramblestar long before that video came out, especially considering that more than a year had already passed between the releases. That's more than enough time for people to be able to "think for themselves". All it did was repeat what other people had already been saying. And regardless of who made it or who it's about, I personally think it's a little unfair to blame a single hour-long video on how a fandom feels about a certain character (though you can certainly argue that it contributed to it, which is different). Just because some people agreed with this or that popular person doesn't make them sheep.
|
|
|
Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 23, 2021 11:52:35 GMT -5
ever since moonki**i's video people can't think for themselves and throw up the same points she cherrypicked over and over to justify squirrelflight and it's the most annoying thing i've ever had to go through in a fandom. If someoone swoons over squirrel because of "mean abusive bramble" one more time- People were hating on Bramblestar long before that video came out, especially considering that more than a year had already passed between the releases. That's more than enough time for people to be able to "think for themselves". All it did was repeat what other people had already been saying. And regardless of who made it or who it's about, I personally think it's a little unfair to blame a single hour-long video on how a fandom feels about a certain character (though you can certainly argue that it contributed to it, which is different). Just because some people agreed with this or that popular person doesn't make them sheep. It's also nothing new for the fandom to change their opinions due to others' views of the story. This has even happened to me- I used to dislike Dovewing but many rants about her changed my opinion on her 100%.
|
|
|
Post by Aqua on Apr 23, 2021 12:01:21 GMT -5
People were hating on Bramblestar long before that video came out, especially considering that more than a year had already passed between the releases. That's more than enough time for people to be able to "think for themselves". All it did was repeat what other people had already been saying. And regardless of who made it or who it's about, I personally think it's a little unfair to blame a single hour-long video on how a fandom feels about a certain character (though you can certainly argue that it contributed to it, which is different). Just because some people agreed with this or that popular person doesn't make them sheep. It's also nothing new for the fandom to change their opinions due to others' views of the story. This has even happened to me- I used to dislike Dovewing but many rants about her changed my opinion on her 100%. I've definitely noticed that the fandom can have the power to change someone's mind sometimes. It's very interesting how it works like this. A fandom can either sour your opinion on the character because of how they treat you when they debate, or how they treat the character themselves, or they can change your mind with their own evidence from the books in a positive manner and help you understand their motives. I have had this fandom sour my opinion on a couple of characters over the years, but a lot of the debates can be pretty fun as long as people don't overreact over things or say offensive things like "we're defending an abuser" or "why would you defend a villain?" because then it becomes personal and it's just not fun anymore when people do that lol. This is my personal experience with the fandom when it comes to debating. It really depends on what side of the fandom you're on, really, or how mature the people can be.
|
|
|
Post by Ghost/Aster on Apr 23, 2021 12:51:19 GMT -5
ever since moonki**i's video people can't think for themselves and throw up the same points she cherrypicked over and over to justify squirrelflight and it's the most annoying thing i've ever had to go through in a fandom. If someoone swoons over squirrel because of "mean abusive bramble" one more time- I honestly mostly agree. But I'll say my own opinion. The BrambleSquirrel drama was annoying, mostly because of "mean abusive Bramble". Honestly, BrambleSquirrel was never healthy, but on both sides, due to both sides actions, though I will still say that Bramblestar is abusive. (My memories are fuzzy about TNP) I like Squirrelflight, but I think some of her actions aren't that great. Second, even if Moonkitti's comedy video's are good, especially her short video's,she is not the goddess of the warrior's fandom. You are free to have your own opinions, as long as you are not problematic in other senses. Last, I think that the Erin's are to blame about the unhealthyness, because, well, they are the writers. They don't really seem to be that good, nor can they write a major romance without it being unhealthy or weird.
|
|
|
Post by Ghost/Aster on Apr 23, 2021 12:54:27 GMT -5
It's also nothing new for the fandom to change their opinions due to others' views of the story. This has even happened to me- I used to dislike Dovewing but many rants about her changed my opinion on her 100%. I've definitely noticed that the fandom can have the power to change someone's mind sometimes. It's very interesting how it works like this. A fandom can either sour your opinion on the character because of how they treat you when they debate, or how they treat the character themselves, or they can change your mind with their own evidence from the books in a positive manner and help you understand their motives. I have had this fandom sour my opinion on a couple of characters over the years, but a lot of the debates can be pretty fun as long as people don't overreact over things or say offensive things like "we're defending an abuser" or "why would you defend a villain?" because then it becomes personal and it's just not fun anymore when people do that lol. This is my personal experience with the fandom when it comes to debating. It really depends on what side of the fandom you're on, really, or how mature the people can be. Yeah. The fandom has really changed my views on things. Still, I have my opinions. A lesson: People can still like a problematic character, and be aware of their flaws at the same time. People can also like a character for no particular reason.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 23, 2021 13:29:41 GMT -5
i dont have strong feelings about squirrelflight one way or the other. she's always just been a "meh" character to me, not particularly likeable or worth hating.
the only thing that fandom does that bugs me is when they will condemn bramblestar for wrongful actions, but then not notice when squirrelflight does the same, or come up with reasons why it's different when she does it.
|
|
Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
|
Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 23, 2021 14:13:33 GMT -5
Due to Moonkitti's video on the BrambleSquirrel situation coming up in some of the posts on this thread I would also like to add my opinion on that. Her video certainly did not cause the increased hate on Bramblestar but definitely contributed further to the point that people are still being harrassed by some of her fans when they mention liking him or have him as a favorite character. A couple of them even get called abuse apologists. Of course, it's not Moonkitti's job to monitor her fans response on the topic.
However, I also feel like she has always been rather biased against Bramblestar and in favour of Squirrelflight because I've never heard her aknowledge any of Squirrelflight's faults, instead she has mentioned how Squirrelflight is apparently portayed as being wrong by the narrative when she is actually right about a situation. So this could be seen as a somewhat confirmation regardig the question up above about how Squirrelflight seems to constantly be correct and get all the credit for everything.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 23, 2021 14:17:30 GMT -5
idk why people think squirrel wanting to do the right thing is a good reason or excuse...who is she to say what's "Right" or not? what's "right" for a whole group or not? she goes out of her way to do things HER way and her way only because only SHE is right. she always has put her own wants and needs before the whole clan's, before her duties, etc. she always wants to be right no matter what, and that gets in the way of her being a good mate or a good deputy. she sulks whenever smoeone shuts her down because she keeps believing "im right though! why would u hurt me!" and this is shown in the narrative to this day. with other characters thinking of saying "poor squirrelfligt" in their POV's lmao
|
|
|
Post by Ghost/Aster on Apr 23, 2021 14:23:35 GMT -5
Due to Moonkitti's video on the BrambleSquirrel situation coming up in some of the posts on this thread I would also like to add my opinion on that. Her video certainly did not cause the increased hate on Bramblestar but definitely contributed further to the point that people are still being harrassed by some of her fans when they mention liking him or have him as a favorite character. A couple of them even get called abuse apologists. Of course, it's not Moonkitti's job to monitor her fans response on the topic. However, I also feel like she has always been rather biased against Bramblestar and in favour of Squirrelflight because I've never heard her aknowledge any of Squirrelflight's faults, instead she has mentioned how Squirrelflight is apparently portayed as being wrong by the narrative when she is actually right about a situation. So this could be seen as a somewhat confirmation regardig the question up above about how Squirrelflight seems to constantly be correct and get all the credit for everything. This is true. Moonkitti is a known lover of Squirrelflight, so a video about how Bramblestar is abusive towards Squirrelflight from the perspective of someone who loves Squirrelflight a lot (not in that way), is likely to be biased, even if there is good evidence. I also have seen Bramblestar haters before the Moonkitti video. Yeah, usually Squirrelflight is in the "right", or at least in her head.
|
|
Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
|
Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 23, 2021 14:35:44 GMT -5
Due to Moonkitti's video on the BrambleSquirrel situation coming up in some of the posts on this thread I would also like to add my opinion on that. Her video certainly did not cause the increased hate on Bramblestar but definitely contributed further to the point that people are still being harrassed by some of her fans when they mention liking him or have him as a favorite character. A couple of them even get called abuse apologists. Of course, it's not Moonkitti's job to monitor her fans response on the topic. However, I also feel like she has always been rather biased against Bramblestar and in favour of Squirrelflight because I've never heard her aknowledge any of Squirrelflight's faults, instead she has mentioned how Squirrelflight is apparently portayed as being wrong by the narrative when she is actually right about a situation. So this could be seen as a somewhat confirmation regardig the question up above about how Squirrelflight seems to constantly be correct and get all the credit for everything. This is true. Moonkitti is a known lover of Squirrelflight, so a video about how Bramblestar is abusive towards Squirrelflight from the perspective of someone who loves Squirrelflight a lot (not in that way), is likely to be biased, even if there is good evidence. I also have seen Bramblestar haters before the Moonkitti video. Yeah, usually Squirrelflight is in the "right", or at least in her head. While Moonkitti is biased when it comes to both Squirrelflight and Bramblestar, I still agree with her that the latter was written with some emotionally abusive behaviour patterns, especially during Squirrelflight's Hope. My adoration for Bramblestar does not cloud my vision of his many glaring issues. I hope that everyone who immeadietly labels fans of him as abuse apologists will realize that liking a character does not mean ignoring or excusing any of their bad actions.
|
|
|
Post by Lizard 🦎 on Apr 23, 2021 14:35:54 GMT -5
this whole thread screams facts lol
|
|
Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
|
Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Apr 23, 2021 17:14:08 GMT -5
I feel like if people could just try to put themselves in Bramblestar's shoes, they'd have a far more "clear" view of the BrambleSquirrel situation. I do believe that they're not giving him a chance.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 23, 2021 17:18:06 GMT -5
Personally, I used to love Squirrelflight's character, quite a lot. She was always in my top 5 overall in the series, however over time she became less enjoyable. I think the breaking point for me was probably when she lied about the three, at that point, I became neutral on her. But then later down the line, she didn't exactly improve either, she continued to behave like a brat...when wildly in comparison, her sister became more mature despite her dreadful past actions as well. We've gotten to a point where Leafpool can maturely talk about her past relationship and children with Crowfeather in her own den, and be perfectly normal about it. Whereas Squirrelflight continuously undermines her mate and leader and constantly argues with him. It's exhausting to read, and I don't even like LeafCrow, yet it's much more mature than BrambleSquirrel at this point and they're not even together anymore, like?? It bugs me that whenever Squirrelflight does do something out of line, or wrong in general, her behavior gets overlooked, or tucked aside in favor of villainizing Bramble instead. Poeple try to justify her actions, which are in canon, poorly executed, but simply because she had "good intentions" she gets a slap on the wrist. Just because characters have good intentions doesn't mean their actions are actually good or beneficial. It's why Squirrelflight started to come off as selfish to many, especially in SqH and in TBC, because she continuously put her wants and needs over the majority, despite being in a position of power. But ya know, Bramblestar is abusive goes brrrr I guess. At this point, she honestly shouldn't be deputy, and definitely not leader, if she can't even behave like a deputy. Bramblestar made her deputy because he trusted her again, but she has a wild way of showing that imo. Easily her childish behavior that she never outgrew has made me come to dislike her, and detest her even more because of the fandom babying her.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 23, 2021 18:14:24 GMT -5
I feel like if people could just try to put themselves in Bramblestar's shoes, they'd have a far more "clear" view of the BrambleSquirrel situation. I do believe that they're not giving him a chance. the drama is almost never in his favor bc of the POV it's being read from...it's never his POV for long. thats why no one ever sees things from his perspective.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 23, 2021 21:52:17 GMT -5
I feel like if people could just try to put themselves in Bramblestar's shoes, they'd have a far more "clear" view of the BrambleSquirrel situation. I do believe that they're not giving him a chance. I agree with this in general and this is something I try to do with basically any character ever, but please understand that just because a character's actions are understandable doesn't necessarily make them likable. I completely understood him wanting to get to know Hawkfrost, but him training with Tigerstar and just thinking Mudclaw was outright lying instead of being just a little suspicious even as a sort of precaution were both really stupid. And most of TNP is partially from his PoV. He had absolutely every right to know who the father was, no doubt about that. I think how he acted afterwards is a bit different manner, but I honestly never cared for this part of OotS either way. As for SqH, both him and Squirrelflight were clearly trying to do what they thought was best for the Clan, but enemy or not, Bramblestar was so desperate to avoid a potential war with Tigerstar that he was willing to let another cat die. That right there is what does it for me, not his relationship with Squirrelflight (though it definitely didn't help, either). Regardless though, he most certainly didn't deserve what happened to him in TBC.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 23, 2021 23:32:28 GMT -5
I feel like if people could just try to put themselves in Bramblestar's shoes, they'd have a far more "clear" view of the BrambleSquirrel situation. I do believe that they're not giving him a chance. I agree with this in general and this is something I try to do with basically any character ever, but please understand that just because a character's actions are understandable doesn't necessarily make them likable. I completely understood him wanting to get to know Hawkfrost, but him training with Tigerstar and just thinking Mudclaw was outright lying instead of being just a little suspicious even as a sort of precaution were both really stupid. And most of TNP is partially from his PoV. He had absolutely every right to know who the father was, no doubt about that. I think how he acted afterwards is a bit different manner, but I honestly never cared for this part of OotS either way. As for SqH, both him and Squirrelflight were clearly trying to do what they thought was best for the Clan, but enemy or not, Bramblestar was so desperate to avoid a potential war with Tigerstar that he was willing to let another cat die. That right there is what does it for me, not his relationship with Squirrelflight (though it definitely didn't help, either). Regardless though, he most certainly didn't deserve what happened to him in TBC. Imo, he wasn't completely naïve like people paint him to be though, he was probably just giving his brother the benefit of the doubt. Tawnypelt literally scolds him for his decisions, but he's also desperate to get to be close to kin he didn't even know he had. He probably thought that hopefully in the end his brother would make the right choice, but didn't, so he had to be the one to do it instead, which later led to the clash between them. Honestly he had no obligation to forgive her the way he did, and had the right to be upset with her until he felt like he was ready to forgive her. I feel like it should always be noted that the Sisters were an aggressive group, they were by far no means innocent. They kidnapped his deputy/mate, injured another clan leader, and had several aggressive confrontations with other clans. It didn't help that tensions were already at a boiling point because of cramped territory. If the other clans knew he was sheltering cats that were considered an enemy to the other clans at the time, I doubt they would have taken it well. Similar to how easily WindClan and ShadowClan turned on ThunderClan when they found out they had Brokenstar in their camp. Not to mention, Squirrelflight went behind his back and allowed them into the camp in the first place, exposing the location of their home, all without permission. The choice was not hers to make in the first place. Bramblestar was putting his clan's safety and wellbeing first, which as a leader, should come first period, especially because he's in a position of power and is responsible for his cats. It is his role and duty as a leader.
|
|
|
Post by fishbreeze on Apr 27, 2021 13:50:34 GMT -5
Oh I could not agree more about the books writing her as if she's right about everything. Like in the place of no stars, when Bramblestar gets to come back, so Squirrelflight almost helping Ashfur/Bramblestar escape, and everything she did during all that is a-okay, because she was right in the end...like always. Sorry if that was a bit ranty, some of it is annoyance that Bramblestar is still alive, but there are two more books to go for more cats to kick the buckets.
|
|
|
Post by Aqua on Apr 27, 2021 20:31:06 GMT -5
Oh I could not agree more about the books writing her as if she's right about everything. Like in the place of no stars, when Bramblestar gets to come back, so Squirrelflight almost helping Ashfur/Bramblestar escape, and everything she did during all that is a-okay, because she was right in the end...like always. Sorry if that was a bit ranty, some of it is annoyance that Bramblestar is still alive, but there are two more books to go for more cats to kick the buckets. No need to apologize! This is a cat forum; we have every right to discuss or rant about them, it's why it's here after all! I completely agree with how you feel. I don't think they even did this with Tigerheart as much, and I know he's a character treated as the one who's "always right" as well. It was only in the super edition they treated him like this, and since then he's made plenty of mistakes that has affected lives and other Clans. Squirrelflight is almost always right about everything, with cats admitting that she was without finding any fault in any of the stuff she's done. The worst part is, Squirrelflight hasn't changed. She's always been like this, with getting into things that weren't her problem, and dragging other cats along with her. And when she doesn't get her way, she'll be stubborn and won't listen. Even Sandstorm told Firestar once "You know how she works! Scolding her will just make her even more stubborn!" I do understand her behavior, but it doesn't make it right and sometimes YOU SHOULD listen to people and stop being sneaky because you'll end up hurting others, and she has done that but even with her lies about the Three, she was still told as "doing the right thing because she wanted to protect Leafpool". Leafpool ended up getting more shit from her own taste of medicine than Squirrelflight. Leafpool has always been punished and treated like shit by other Clans or even her own CLANMATES sometimes. Squirrelflight is always respected for lying and being sneaky just because she's right. It's frustrating how one sister is punished more than the other, and Leafpool actually LEARNS from her mistakes, yet some cats still hold a grudge against her but forgives Squirrelflight, was earned her place as a deputy for "forgiveness". Honestly, that lie about the Three should've made them stayed permanently broken up. I don't like Bramblestar, but he deserves better. She's hurt him far too often, even if she did have "good intentions". It's not an excuse to hurt people.
|
|
|
Post by fishbreeze on Apr 27, 2021 20:42:25 GMT -5
Oh I could not agree more about the books writing her as if she's right about everything. Like in the place of no stars, when Bramblestar gets to come back, so Squirrelflight almost helping Ashfur/Bramblestar escape, and everything she did during all that is a-okay, because she was right in the end...like always. Sorry if that was a bit ranty, some of it is annoyance that Bramblestar is still alive, but there are two more books to go for more cats to kick the buckets. No need to apologize! This is a cat forum; we have every right to discuss or rant about them, it's why it's here after all! I completely agree with how you feel. I don't think they even did this with Tigerheart as much, and I know he's a character treated as the one who's "always right" as well. It was only in the super edition they treated him like this, and since then he's made plenty of mistakes that has affected lives and other Clans. Squirrelflight is almost always right about everything, with cats admitting that she was without finding any fault in any of the stuff she's done. The worst part is, Squirrelflight hasn't changed. She's always been like this, with getting into things that weren't her problem, and dragging other cats along with her. And when she doesn't get her way, she'll be stubborn and won't listen. Even Sandstorm told Firestar once "You know how she works! Scolding her will just make her even more stubborn!" I do understand her behavior, but it doesn't make it right and sometimes YOU SHOULD listen to people and stop being sneaky because you'll end up hurting others, and she has done that but even with her lies about the Three, she was still told as "doing the right thing because she wanted to protect Leafpool". Leafpool ended up getting more shit from her own taste of medicine than Squirrelflight. Leafpool has always been punished and treated like shit by other Clans or even her own CLANMATES sometimes. Squirrelflight is always respected for lying and being sneaky just because she's right. It's frustrating how one sister is punished more than the other, and Leafpool actually LEARNS from her mistakes, yet some cats still hold a grudge against her but forgives Squirrelflight, was earned her place as a deputy for "forgiveness". Honestly, that lie about the Three should've made them stayed permanently broken up. I don't like Bramblestar, but he deserves better. She's hurt him far too often, even if she did have "good intentions". It's not an excuse to hurt people. Hmm, good point! There have been a lot of instances where Squirrelflight doesn't really get any negativity for lying, one of the biggest being when she came back, after putting her whole clan through worry, after being gone for MOONS! She comes back, and everyone sees her as some hero. Yes, she did help lead them to the new place, thus helping to save all their lives, but really? Nothing about all the worry she caused anyone? Power of Three, Cinder mentioned above, it really does seem like pot was biased in Squirrelflight's favour, and again in Bramblestar's Storm, to me it seemed to be written more in sympathy for Squirrelflight. Then there's Squirrelflight's Hope and tbc, where the cats are calling her out, and being antagonistic towards her, but a lot of their arguments are really unsound, especially the ones accusing her of leading Ashfur on or whatever. That makes it seem like the writers are trying to garner sympathy for her, which again proves your point.
|
|