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Post by mymerlincat on Apr 10, 2021 10:11:29 GMT -5
Finleap got a lot of flack around the release of the Raging Storm, and is still one of the more unpopular characters, particularly because of his insistence that Twigbranch and him have kits so Finleap can feel like he has a place in the Clan. Though Squirrelflight acted very similarly in Squirrelflight’s Hope to Bramblestar about wanting a second litter, and I never see her get any flack for it. Can someone explain why people constantly hold this against Finleap, but not Squirrelflight?
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Post by Ponyboy on Apr 10, 2021 10:20:06 GMT -5
I think it's because Squirrelflight wasn't as directly pushy about it like Finleap was. As I remember it, Squirrelflight backed off pretty quickly, and most of her thoughts on it, were to herself, or her venting to other cats like Leafpool. Finleap on the other hand, kept pressuring Twingbranch directly.
Edit: At first, I wasn't 100% sure about this, but it was confirmed by Cinder.
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Post by crowspirit on Apr 10, 2021 11:24:40 GMT -5
The two situations are completely different and not comparable at all, in my opinion. Finleap constantly pushed Twigbranch to having kits, threatening to even leave the clan if he didn't get what he wanted. Squirrelflight also brought up the topic of wanting kits, but quickly backed off once she realized that that wasn't what Bramblestar wanted. She even stated that she only wants to have kits again if he wants them too. Bramblestar however uses this against her, stating that she's only thinking about kits because she wants to feel useful again. THAT'S manipulative in my eyes. I don't get how people think that Squirrelflightʼs behaviour was as bad as Finleapʼs, she did some things in Squirrelflight's Hope that weren't good, but this thing in particular is no part of that in my opinion.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 10, 2021 11:32:04 GMT -5
Like others have said, Finleap was pushy, Squirrelflight wasn't.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 10, 2021 11:37:09 GMT -5
I think it's because Squirrelflight wasn't as directly pushy about it like Finleap was. As I remember it, Squirrelflight backed off pretty quickly, and most of her thoughts on it, were to herself, or her venting to other cats like Leafpool. Finleap on the other hand, kept pressuring Twingbranch directly. I could be remembering wrong though, I skimmed Squirrelflight's Hope.
No, you're actually correct. Squirrelflight actually only brings it up to him in the very first chapter and they never really discuss it again after she realizes he doesn't want more kits. She's upset about it, sure, but that's it. Any other time she brings up her desire, it's mostly internally, though she does vent to Leafpool about it at least once. Finleap on the other hand kept pushing and pushing to the point of nearly leaving ThunderClan just because Twigbranch wouldn't give him what he wanted.
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Post by cable on Apr 10, 2021 13:43:38 GMT -5
finleap literally tried to blackmail twigbranch into having his babies by threatening to leave her if she didnt. why do people make this comparison.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 10, 2021 14:37:01 GMT -5
finleap literally tried to blackmail twigbranch into having his babies by threatening to leave her if she didnt. why do people make this comparison. Seriously, just because two situations look similar doesn't mean they're comparable. I get this fandom has a problem with double standards (what fandom doesn't?), but this isn't one of those times.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 10, 2021 15:52:25 GMT -5
Finleap was worse, but both instances were grossly annoying to me, that either felt that the only way they’d be happy or accepted was if they had kits. Reading about both of them made me extremely uncomfortable, and I’ll leave it at that.
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Post by Brindlefern on Apr 10, 2021 16:49:09 GMT -5
Uh... Squirrelflight gets lots of flack to this day about the kits thing???? Every thread about brambleSquirrel and SqH in general has someone going off about it. It's not a "nobody does this" thing when there are a fair amount that still do. It's not even a case of "You need to look for it" either. (Heck, it takes every ounce of my willpower to not join in all those discussions to rant, time to reset the days of doing that back to 0)
Also the situations are not the same if you look AROUND the kits thing. Finleap as much as I like him was still the absolute worse of the two because of how he went about it, Squirrelflight after what, two tries, stopped bringing it up on her own to Bramble (keywords being, on her own) after he reluctantly gave in and she saw that he wasn't in on it, and all future instances involved her either conviding with leafpool (Not Bramblestar) about it, or Bramble bringing every single discussion of kits after she stopped back to her even when not in relation to her but the clans and others as a whole, just to guilt her. She couldn't mention kits AT ALL in ANY context without Bramblestar thinking she's still stuck on him not giving her a second litter when she wasn't, and I think people are too stuck on that to see that Bramble is the one to link it back to that discussion rather than see that he still thinks she's caught on that when that's clearly not the case and rather the other way around. Finleap, you know how that went. He pressured Twigbranch until like what... the last couple of chapters in TRS(?) to the point of threatening to go back to Skyclan because she wouldn't have his children under the belief that she doesn't truly love him UNLESS she does. And even accused her of what was it, cheating with Tree who was her sister's mate or something because he was pissed that Twigbranch doesn't want to carry his babus? And Tree had to talk him the frick down because even tree saw he was being a scumbag. This goes on from as early in TRS to late late, MANY chapters, in. We all know how bad that is.
Squirrelflight does NOT pressure Bramble for kits, and especially not throughout the entire book like I've seen some say, jfc. She unlike Finleap literally stops VERY EARLY IN. She is NOT comparable to Finleap in the SLIGHTEST.
I'm well aware you hate Squirrelflight's fricking guts but don't skewer stuff up for your narrative. Please don't compare the two just by the "they pushed kits onto their partner" idea and look at the situation around it as a whole. I'm sorry for sounding bitchy about this I'm just so tired of this debate AND this comparison. Sorry but yes OF COURSE we who defend Squirrelflight don't give her much flak about the kits thing like we do Finleap, because she unlike him doesn't keep PUSHING.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Apr 10, 2021 17:55:22 GMT -5
Like others have said, the situations are similar but not comparable- Squirrelflight acted far more maturely than Finleap about the kits situation.
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Aroace
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 10, 2021 18:01:52 GMT -5
Squirrelflight asked Bramblestar ONCE at the beginning of Squirrelflight's Hope and after quickly realizing that he is not at all interested in having any, she only rants to Leafpool about it, afterwards just seemingly keeps on yearning for more kits with him in her thoughts.
Finleap CONSTANTLY pressures Twigbranch about having kits during the whole of The Raging Storm and even threatens with going back to SkyClan just because she doesn't want to have them at the time. He later also acts irrationally jealous around her sister's mate Tree and it wouldn't surprise me at all, if they had yet another discussion about kittens offscreen, after Violetshine announced her pregnancy. I'm glad he seems to have calmed down a little bit for now.
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Post by Sundance on Apr 10, 2021 20:10:33 GMT -5
I thought the title of this thread was Squirrelflight x Finleap for a second and was very alarmed
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Post by Ponyboy on Apr 10, 2021 20:13:00 GMT -5
I thought the title of this thread was Squirrelflight x Finleap for a second and was very alarmed Same
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 11, 2021 9:03:12 GMT -5
Bramblestar however uses this against her, stating that she's only thinking about kits because she wants to feel useful again. When exactly does this happen? Because from what I remember wasn't she herself the one thinking she had to have kits to feel useful/needed again? But Bramble is upset at her for prioritizing kits over the current more critical situations like moving SkyClan and dealing with the Sisters.
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Lesbian
Owl
always writing, never finishing
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Post by Owl on Apr 11, 2021 10:02:27 GMT -5
different contexts, i feel. in bramblesquirrel's case, the situation regarding another litter is handled in a way that's more emotional and somber. (as emotional as a book like squirrelflight's hope can be, anyway.) squirrelflight also backs off rather quickly. bramblestar tells her how feels about it pretty fast, so people probably feel less inclined to stand up for him in this situation. we get to read about squirrelflight's disappointment through her internal thoughts, so that combined with the fact that she wasn't pushy means she's easier to sympathize with in this situation.
for twigbranch and finleap, we're reading from twigbranch's point of view, so we get to understand her growing discomfort with finleap's pushiness. finleap most certainly did not let it go as easily as squirrelflight, and instead of backing off and venting his feelings to someone else like squirrelflight did, he takes his anger out on twigbranch for an entire book.
i agree with emerald in that i believe squirrelflight does get flack for the kits situation. finleap's insistence on kits has definitely hurt his popularity, but he's since faded peacefully into background character status and most people at least somewhat accepted his apology. meanwhile, it feels like squirrelflight's wanting another litter gets brought up in almost every negative post about either her as a character or squirrelflight's hope.
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Post by crowspirit on Apr 11, 2021 10:09:14 GMT -5
Bramblestar however uses this against her, stating that she's only thinking about kits because she wants to feel useful again. When exactly does this happen? Because from what I remember wasn't she herself the one thinking she had to have kits to feel useful/needed again? But Bramble is upset at her for prioritizing kits over the current more critical situations like moving SkyClan and dealing with the Sisters. I can't give a direct quote since I don't have the book with me right now. But I remember there being a scene where Squirrelflight mentions kits (I forgot the exact context but I think it was about Moonlight) and Bramblestar immediately saying “Are kits all you're thinking about?”, which indicates for me that he was still guilt tripping her for bringing up the topic to him, even though Squirrelflight didn't even think about having kits by herself in that moment.
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 11, 2021 11:11:20 GMT -5
When exactly does this happen? Because from what I remember wasn't she herself the one thinking she had to have kits to feel useful/needed again? But Bramble is upset at her for prioritizing kits over the current more critical situations like moving SkyClan and dealing with the Sisters. I can't give a direct quote since I don't have the book with me right now. But I remember there being a scene where Squirrelflight mentions kits (I forgot the exact context but I think it was about Moonlight) and Bramblestar immediately saying “Are kits all you're thinking about?”, which indicates for me that he was still guilt tripping her for bringing up the topic to him, even though Squirrelflight didn't even think about having kits by herself in that moment. Do you mean this scene? Bramblestar also says something similar in the first chapter of the book, much closer to your quote.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 11, 2021 12:16:46 GMT -5
I can't give a direct quote since I don't have the book with me right now. But I remember there being a scene where Squirrelflight mentions kits (I forgot the exact context but I think it was about Moonlight) and Bramblestar immediately saying “Are kits all you're thinking about?”, which indicates for me that he was still guilt tripping her for bringing up the topic to him, even though Squirrelflight didn't even think about having kits by herself in that moment. Do you mean this scene? Bramblestar also says something similar in the first chapter of the book, much closer to your quote. Yeah exactly, in these scenes Squirrelflight was talking about the safety of the Sister's kits and then in the second quote she's talking about ThunderClan's kits, that'll need to be fed. She dosen't bring it up, Bramblestar does, trying to guilt-trip her into thinking that's what she only thinks about when kits are a whole Clan's responsability, even kits outside the Clan, as stated by the warrior code.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 11, 2021 18:36:38 GMT -5
Do you mean this scene? Bramblestar also says something similar in the first chapter of the book, much closer to your quote. Yeah exactly, in these scenes Squirrelflight was talking about the safety of the Sister's kits and then in the second quote she's talking about ThunderClan's kits, that'll need to be fed. She dosen't bring it up, Bramblestar does, trying to guilt-trip her into thinking that's what she only thinks about when kits are a whole Clan's responsability, even kits outside the Clan, as stated by the warrior code. No offense, but I think context is important in this. Because from Squirrel's POV, we quite literally see her having an internal crisis over her age, growing old, dying before Bramble, being "replaced", and wanting to feel "needed" again like when she was a queen with kits. This is a constant factor we see rotate in her brain in SqH, to the point where it seems more like her concern for the Sister's and their kits seem to be prioritized more than her actual clan's safety and the more blatant issues. I don't see how Bramblestar being annoyed with his mate, who's also his deputy, constantly bringing up kits, is him "guilt tripping". To guilt trip someone is to try and instill someone with the thought that they're to blame over something, and make them feel bad. And I highly doubt that was Bramblestar's intention. Couples have disagreements, not every annoyance or disagreement is toxic or abusive behavior. Actual guilt tripping would be what Finleap did to Twigbranch, or what Smoky was doing to Daisy in her newest novella. In the second quote, this is easily the case. As for the first, it's obvious at this point there is tension and frustration between them. Because Bramblestar is asking Squirrel to support him as his deputy, but Squirrel is refusing as his mate, hence why relationships like this do no work out. Squirrel keeps prioritizing the fact that Moonlight is an expectant Queen but not acknowledging the bigger issues; the possible wars about to breakout over land. The irony about this is that Squirrel was the one that went behind Bramble's back to try and encourage Leafstar to move SkyClan into the unmarked territory in the first place. And now that Bramble and the other leaders are moving the idea into motion, she's now suddenly against it simply because one she-cat is pregnant. The same she-cat who held her hostage, and has been causing trouble for other patrols. So I can understand Bramblestar's frustrations with his own deputy. If she's not even going to prioritize her duty, then what was the point of her being deputy in the first place. You can have morals and still serve your clan, but considering Squirrelflight already directly undermined Bramblestar and went behind his back already, I doubt that is much of an option anymore. She broke his trust as her deputy after all, but she wants him to bend rules simply because they're mates. Also no rules were being broken. The actual rule is: No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan. Moonlight was pregnant, she didn't have her kits yet, and she was perfectly capable of relocating with her group to give birth elsewhere. I don't see why she couldn't? Especially when we've had examples of pregnant queens traveling great distances; Dove and Poppy, and their kits still turning out fine. I doubt a few bit of walking would do any harm to Moonlight. An actual example of this code being broken was when Russetfur and her patrol straight up ignored Berrykit, when he was caught in a fox trap. That is breaking the code. Not what Bramble and the other leaders agreed on, and it's not even as if the Sisters didn't know the others were coming. They knew and were being stubborn about moving at all, and starting fights with patrols, they're not exactly innocent in all of this.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on May 7, 2021 2:06:52 GMT -5
Finleap He was very pushy about it. He wanted to force Twigbranch into having kits with him. Twigbranch, a strong woman, told him no, and after that, he wanted to manipulate her into doing it, by saying he would leave. Twigbranch told him that he should leave then. Finleap is disgusting.
Squirrelflight She had the fear of getting older and not being able to have another litter again. It maked her feel happy and young. She asked Bramblestar ONE time of they should get another litter of kits. Basically, she presented the idea of having kits. After she asked, she got a little bit an vague answer. He said 'ofcourse' while looking away. Squirrelflight changes the subject. Bramblestar is the one who brings up kits time and time again. Squirrelflight presented the idea ONE time, and she never tried to push Bramblestar into wanting it. This was proven when Bramblestar said: 'Sure Squirrelflight, I'll have kits with you. If you want it.' Or something like that. Squirrelflight immediately came back on the plan. She thought in her head: 'I want you to want it too.'
If somebody says that Squirrelflight tried or wanted to force Bramblestar into having kits, I will throw hands. I guess. Or just scream.
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Post by downfalls on May 14, 2021 9:43:44 GMT -5
Squirrelflight was nowhere near as pushy as Finleap.
Finleap tried to force Twigbranch to have kits because that's what he thought real love was all about. He's just doing it to make Twig uncomfortable.
Squirrelflight wanted to have another litter before she can't have any more kits and dies. She wants to feel young again by having another litter of kits.
Bramblestar yells at Squirrelflight for saying that she wants kits and thinks that she has enough responsibilities when deputies can have kits.
Finleap guilt-trips Twigbranch into having kits when she fights back because he's an immature jerk.
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Post by Aqua on May 14, 2021 10:30:30 GMT -5
Finleap and Squirrelflight were both annoying about it. Squirrelflight was still silent about it but throughout the entire book in SqH she kept talking about kits in her head so often that it became annoying to me. She just wasn't as harsh about it but we still had to deal with her whining about wanting kits. :/ And as for people about to paint Bramblestar for being a jerk to her about not wanting kits, he's allowed to say no. Bramblestar actually said yes at one point, but Squirrelflight realized he didn't want any, and she backed off after that.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 14, 2021 13:56:13 GMT -5
Finleap is worse imo. He literally tried to guilt-trip and blackmail Twigbranch into having his kits, and when she rejected the idea, he literally said he was going to leave ThunderClan if he didin't give her what he wanted. It was really gross, considering what she-cats have to go through to have kits.
Meanwhile, Squirrelflight only brought up the subject to Bramblestar as a suggestion, aand when she realized that that he didin't want any more kits, she backed off and never pressured him. Instead, she only worried about it in her head, wich is understandable as long as she dosen't pressure her mate. She only vented to Leafpool and let go the thought of having kits. It was only Bramblestar who constantly brought up Squirrelflight having kits in situations where she wasn't even talking about herself. I don't know why some fans make the comparision that both were very similar.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 14, 2021 19:09:00 GMT -5
Finleap and Squirrelflight were both annoying about it. Squirrelflight was still silent about it but throughout the entire book in SqH she kept talking about kits in her head so often that it became annoying to me. She just wasn't as harsh about it but we still had to deal with her whining about wanting kits. :/ And as for people about to paint Bramblestar for being a jerk to her about not wanting kits, he's allowed to say no. Bramblestar actually said yes at one point, but Squirrelflight realized he didn't want any, and she backed off after that. I mean, she's allowed to dream about wanting kits? Especially after the realization that she COULD get pregnant after being lied to about it? She never pressures anyone. She just dreams of having more kiddos
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