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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 14:42:47 GMT -5
I mean he ended up being right about Tigerheart, he was in fact a power hungry jerk who tried to invade Skyclan multiple times and performed diplomacy by threatening to invade anything and everyone. Can't hold that one against Brambleclaw, he pegged Tigerheart perfectly. His problem is that despite pegging him perfectly, his response to Tigerheart is to quail before him It makes a lot of sense, but it's just baffling to see him being mad at Squirrelflight for judging Hawkfrost for acting like Tigerclawstar, only for him to make it worse by judging just for name and appereance. To be fair, Hawkfrost was ALSO a bad guy and that was years ago. It comes off more like Brambleclaw learning from his mistakes than anything else and realizing that broad-shouldered tabbies with ambition are in fact problematic haha.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 7, 2021 14:46:40 GMT -5
It makes a lot of sense, but it's just baffling to see him being mad at Squirrelflight for judging Hawkfrost for acting like Tigerclawstar, only for him to make it worse by judging just for name and appereance. To be fair, Hawkfrost was ALSO a bad guy and that was years ago. It comes off more like Brambleclaw learning from his mistakes than anything else and realizing that broad-shouldered tabbies with ambition are in fact problematic haha. That makes a lot of sense. I can see him being more aware of trusting brown tabbies now. It's even more funnier when even outside the book, the Erins make almost all brown tabby males jerks/evil. Atleast we have Lightleap now to break the cycle.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 14:51:03 GMT -5
To be fair, Hawkfrost was ALSO a bad guy and that was years ago. It comes off more like Brambleclaw learning from his mistakes than anything else and realizing that broad-shouldered tabbies with ambition are in fact problematic haha. That makes a lot of sense. I can see him being more aware of trusting brown tabbies now. It's even more funnier when even outside the book, the Erins make almost all brown tabby males jerks/evil. Atleast we have Lightleap now to break the cycle. Brambleclaw is aware of the fourth wall, he's transcended now
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 7, 2021 15:08:05 GMT -5
I would think the fact he’s getting so agitated by it is an indication that she has brought it up before multiple times beforehand. Sure, she could have just then stopped, but even so, Bramblestar is never obligated to have anymore kits if he does not want them. Squirrelflight should have told him how she felt, and yes, he could have been more questioning than sharp, but I still stand by my feelings that her basing everything on whether or not he’ll have kits with her and that being the only sign she’ll accept that he still loves her is...not super great. I could say that after Dovewing told Bumblestripe a solid no to kits during the Purdy incident, he backed off and never asked again. But everyone still comes for him and trashes on him even when he very clearly backed off. This isn’t the case for Squirrelflight, and it’s bothersome for me personally to see her getting countless excuses for it. And whether or not it was a genuine question or not, that phrase “Don’t you love me?” in response to everything, him not wanting kits, him having his responsibilities as leader to manage over every cat and not just her, can certainly come off as manipulative without her intending it to be. I do genuinely believe Squirrelflight felt like Bramblestar wasn’t the most attentive mate, but honestly I can’t be surprised he wasn’t spending every waking moment with her when he has an extremely important responsibility as leader. Had they communicated that more mutually, maybe I’d be more sympathetic. i personally believe this was the first time she brought it up but everyone interprets the plot in their own way. squirrelflight did explain how she felt, that they were getting old and they might not have time anymore and bramblestar disagreed and brushed off her concerns, saying they both had enough responsibilities. they should have communicated more properly because they never addressed squirrelflight's worries about him replacing her and such. i don't think she was basing everything on having kits, she did say he hadn't been paying much attention to her lately resulting in her feeling unloved and him refusing to have kits brought up her insecurities on that matter. bumblestripe generally gets scolded because he persistently asked for or hinted at wanting kids for several books - from bramblestar's storm to a vision of shadows when every single time he brought it up dovewing was shown to be very uncomfortable and he very well understood that yet he kept asking. as for squirrelflight, after that one conversation, she never brought it up again because she wasn't going to guilt bramblestar into having them. if she cared more about having kits than his feelings, she would have accepted it when he unenthusiastically agreed to have kits for her sake. but she didn't. she specifically thought, "but i want you to want them too." i get that leaders have lots of responsibilities and it's not really his fault he doesn't have time to see her but it's honestly understandable for anyone to feel neglected in that situation and try to reform a connection with them. i feel like she misunderstood him not wanting kits due to his responsibilities to him brushing off another connection she was trying to form with him and that was a big miscommunication between both of them. I can agree with most of this because it’s mutual miscommunication and issues instead of just one cat being completely in the wrong or right, so I appreciate that. Though I’m pretty sure Bumblestripe only asked for them twice. I genuinely can’t remember any other times than those two before he backed off and even reluctantly supported her choice to be with Tigerheart too. Needless to say, I wanted Squirrelflight and Bramblestar to talk instead of her just assuming he doesn’t love her and putting him in difficult situations by going behind his back. Bramblestar is incredibly flawed, but in the case of BrambleSquirrel, it takes two to tango for their issues with eachother.
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Post by crunchyboness on Apr 7, 2021 15:40:06 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Bramblestar myself, but this literally isn't true at all. Bramblestar has expressed pride in his son quite a few times already and literally the only reason Alderheart was made a medicine cat at all was because StarClan wanted him to be one. Bramblestar, Leafpool, and Jayfeather were pretty much just messengers. If you're going to hate Bramblestar, at least get your facts straight. Alderheart may have felt like his father wasn't proud of him at the beginning of AVoS, but the narrative clearly proves otherwise considering we have scenes of Bramblestar comforting him.
You don't need to be rude, lmao. Maybe I didn't put it correctly, and 'embarrassed of him' probably isn't the right phrase. But the way it all unfolded for Alderpaw didn't seem natural to me. Alderpaw repeatedly felt that 'the vision' Bramblestar was speaking of wasn't true, even though he felt like 'Bramblestar, his dad, wouldn't lie to him'. To my knowledge the vision they were talking about wasn't explained further than 'it's your destiny' either. ThunderClan already had two fully-fledged medicine cats plus having Briarlight around for extra help; there was really no reason for him to be there.
There was ONE scene afaik of Bramblestar comforting Alderpaw, and it's just him telling his son about the time he busted his face in the woods with Firestar. Bramblestar didn't really show consistent support of his son, imo.
"Part of him was looking forward to that, but Alderpaw was sure that Jayfeather, who was always so snappy and short-tempered, didn’t really want him there. Leafpool is much kinder, he thought with a sigh, but I wish she would stop giving me funny looks." (pg122, AVoS)
“This is Alderpaw,” Leafpool replied. “He’s our new apprentice.” A murmur of surprise came from the other medicine cats. “Really?” Kestrelflight responded. “I should have thought the last thing ThunderClan needed was another medicine cat!” “We don’t question the will of StarClan,” Leafpool replied levelly, while Jayfeather flicked his whiskers irritably." (pg161, AVoS)
You could blame Alderpaw's thoughts on the situation on his anxiety and lack of self-esteem/self-confidence in himself, you can say he's just feeling bad about not being able to be a warrior anymore, you could say Leafpool and Jayfeather don't want another apprentice, you could say a lot, you could even say it's a reach.
But Bramblestar also not listening to Alderheart, Bramblestar being insecure with how he's perceived socially, Sparkpaw being a very talented hunter while Alderpaw is deemed useless by others, etc just makes it more suspicious that it was Bramblestar's idea or influence. It would've felt more legitimate if Alderpaw wanted or realized his destiny himself.
Bramblestar is still a really horrible, toxic character though :/ This is just a tiny drop in the ocean.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 15:57:14 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Bramblestar myself, but this literally isn't true at all. Bramblestar has expressed pride in his son quite a few times already and literally the only reason Alderheart was made a medicine cat at all was because StarClan wanted him to be one. Bramblestar, Leafpool, and Jayfeather were pretty much just messengers. If you're going to hate Bramblestar, at least get your facts straight. Alderheart may have felt like his father wasn't proud of him at the beginning of AVoS, but the narrative clearly proves otherwise considering we have scenes of Bramblestar comforting him.
You don't need to be rude, lmao. Maybe I didn't put it correctly, and 'embarrassed of him' probably isn't the right phrase. But the way it all unfolded for Alderpaw didn't seem natural to me. Alderpaw repeatedly felt that 'the vision' Bramblestar was speaking of wasn't true, even though he felt like 'Bramblestar, his dad, wouldn't lie to him'. To my knowledge the vision they were talking about wasn't explained further than 'it's your destiny' either. ThunderClan already had two fully-fledged medicine cats plus having Briarlight around for extra help; there was really no reason for him to be there.
There was ONE scene afaik of Bramblestar comforting Alderpaw, and it's just him telling his son about the time he busted his face in the woods with Firestar. Bramblestar didn't really show consistent support of his son, imo.
"Part of him was looking forward to that, but Alderpaw was sure that Jayfeather, who was always so snappy and short-tempered, didn’t really want him there. Leafpool is much kinder, he thought with a sigh, but I wish she would stop giving me funny looks." (pg122, AVoS)
“This is Alderpaw,” Leafpool replied. “He’s our new apprentice.” A murmur of surprise came from the other medicine cats. “Really?” Kestrelflight responded. “I should have thought the last thing ThunderClan needed was another medicine cat!” “We don’t question the will of StarClan,” Leafpool replied levelly, while Jayfeather flicked his whiskers irritably." (pg161, AVoS)
You could blame Alderpaw's thoughts on the situation on his anxiety and lack of self-esteem/self-confidence in himself, you can say he's just feeling bad about not being able to be a warrior anymore, you could say Leafpool and Jayfeather don't want another apprentice, you could say a lot, you could even say it's a reach.
But Bramblestar also not listening to Alderheart, Bramblestar being insecure with how he's perceived socially, Sparkpaw being a very talented hunter while Alderpaw is deemed useless by others, etc just makes it more suspicious that it was Bramblestar's idea or influence. It would've felt more legitimate if Alderpaw wanted or realized his destiny himself.
Bramblestar is still a really horrible, toxic character though :/ This is just a tiny drop in the ocean.
If there's no evidence it's Bramblestar's fault then it's really stretching things to just say that because the event didn't work out great it must have been his fault. Leafpool was staring right at Alderheart even at the gathering, it's pretty believable that they just got some vision saying Alderheart must be a medicine cat and that was that.
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Post by crunchyboness on Apr 7, 2021 16:02:55 GMT -5
Moonblazer u're 100% right. squirrelflight was manipulative in her SE. squirrelflight doesn't get what she wants, so she uses "dont u love me anymore?" to guilt trip bramblestar into getting her way...they may not have intended it to be read this way, but it's what it seems like on the surface to me. it's just weird they'd spend the whole SE in squirrelflight's favor only to have her say this and make her look like a manipulative, toxic partner who uses blackmail and guilt tripping tactics to get her way. both bramble and squirrel were jerks in SqH in their own ways, but this one instance stuck out to me, and really annoyed me when I read it... Whoa, Squirrelflight is definitely not manipulative. If you read foxstep's argument you can clearly see that Squirrelflight is asking a genuine question; Bramblestar is constantly mean to her, never really has any couples-time for her anymore (understandable because he is leader, but it is still worth sympathizing for), gaslights and manipulates her, and lashes out in anger instead of communicating his feelings every time something goes wrong. She is not in the wrong for asking that question after literally being mistreated by him for SO long. She does nothing manipulative while Bramblestar projects all his insecurities on her constantly, belittles her, and never treats her as an equal.
What does Squirrelflight do? Talk back to him? Feel bad? Be loud? Go against his wishes sometimes? She's his mate, not his child or apprentice.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 16:09:19 GMT -5
Moonblazer u're 100% right. squirrelflight was manipulative in her SE. squirrelflight doesn't get what she wants, so she uses "dont u love me anymore?" to guilt trip bramblestar into getting her way...they may not have intended it to be read this way, but it's what it seems like on the surface to me. it's just weird they'd spend the whole SE in squirrelflight's favor only to have her say this and make her look like a manipulative, toxic partner who uses blackmail and guilt tripping tactics to get her way. both bramble and squirrel were jerks in SqH in their own ways, but this one instance stuck out to me, and really annoyed me when I read it... Whoa, Squirrelflight is definitely not manipulative. If you read foxstep's argument you can clearly see that Squirrelflight is asking a genuine question; Bramblestar is constantly mean to her, never really has any couples-time for her anymore (understandable because he is leader, but it is still worth sympathizing for), gaslights and manipulates her, and lashes out in anger instead of communicating his feelings every time something goes wrong. She is not in the wrong for asking that question after literally being mistreated by him for SO long. She does nothing manipulative while Bramblestar projects all his insecurities on her constantly, belittles her, and never treats her as an equal.
What does Squirrelflight do? Talk back to him? Feel bad? Be loud? Go against his wishes sometimes? She's his mate, not his child or apprentice.
Mistreated by him for so long? What has he even done prior to Squirrelflight's Hope? And where is this gaslighting you speak of prior to it too? As far as we know, their relationship has been fine throughout the whole of the end of OOTS to the beginning of Squirrelflight's Hope and had been fine throughout the period from the end of TNP to the end of PoT. The beginning argument on Squirrelflight's Hope isn't built on any problems in recent memory, the question she asks is entirely unfair.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 7, 2021 16:13:46 GMT -5
Moonblazer u're 100% right. squirrelflight was manipulative in her SE. squirrelflight doesn't get what she wants, so she uses "dont u love me anymore?" to guilt trip bramblestar into getting her way...they may not have intended it to be read this way, but it's what it seems like on the surface to me. it's just weird they'd spend the whole SE in squirrelflight's favor only to have her say this and make her look like a manipulative, toxic partner who uses blackmail and guilt tripping tactics to get her way. both bramble and squirrel were jerks in SqH in their own ways, but this one instance stuck out to me, and really annoyed me when I read it... Whoa, Squirrelflight is definitely not manipulative. If you read foxstep's argument you can clearly see that Squirrelflight is asking a genuine question; Bramblestar is constantly mean to her, never really has any couples-time for her anymore (understandable because he is leader, but it is still worth sympathizing for), gaslights and manipulates her, and lashes out in anger instead of communicating his feelings every time something goes wrong. She is not in the wrong for asking that question after literally being mistreated by him for SO long. She does nothing manipulative while Bramblestar projects all his insecurities on her constantly, belittles her, and never treats her as an equal.
What does Squirrelflight do? Talk back to him? Feel bad? Be loud? Go against his wishes sometimes? She's his mate, not his child or apprentice.
both bramble and squirrel r bad, but i put squirrel as worse bc she's been selfish since TNP. it's always about her feelings. i dont like it when people constantly defend and place the victim card on squirrelflight for her biased SE...bramblestar was purposefully made a jerk to make squirrelflight look better. she even acknowledges she went behind his back. she's not just his mate, she's his deputy. they both have a responsibility to put the clan first, not their relationship first. squirrelflight never seems to understand that she has to put others before herself or her relationship. bramblestar's choice of words makes him look bad, so thats one sign of him being to blame, but squirrels just as much to blame. she puts herself and her ego first by wanting to be right, so much so she sneaks behind her LEADER'S back, and then has the nerve to get upset when bramble says he cant trust her for what she did...he has ever right to be mad when she went behind his back just to look right about the sisters situation. squirrelflight has a pattern of wanting to be right about everything and guilt trips people by acting upset about it when no one listens to her. she's been like this since TNP. bramble's actions in the SE go against his own SE, and its obvious its bc of POV and intent. bramble's SE Was from his POV, therefore he acted better there, but squirrel's SE is in her POV, therefore everything had to be in her favor, including sympathy.
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Apr 7, 2021 16:51:08 GMT -5
the thing is, his toxic behavior wasn't limited to sqH as some people believe. yes, he didn't always behave the way he did and was genuinely a good mate to her for most of their relationship. but in starlight and twilight, you can see how terrible he can treat her with the hawkfrost argument. when all she did was say she had a bad feeling about hawkfrost, brambleclaw immediately assumed it was her judging him for his father and twisted her words to make it seem like by not trusting hawkfrost, she didn't trust brambleclaw, because they share a father. he constantly twists her words, back then and now. a lot of their arguments in sqh consisted of him twisting every point she made to make her look like she had poor judgement or was disloyal to her clan when she made a lot of great points and only meant well. and every time she reached out in starlight, he always pushed her away which finally drove her to end their friendship and start hanging out with ashfur. he can't understand in any way how this could be his fault and then starts tormenting her and ashfur and purposefully looks for opportunities to berate both of them when neither were doing anything wrong. instead of fixing his relationship with squirrelflight, he feels the need to punish her. sound familiar?
they're both terrible at communication and while i only picked on brambleclaw, squirrelflight definitely could have done better on her part too, but i wanted to bring up that he has mistreated her in the past and sqh is just a repetition of his toxic actions.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 17:09:34 GMT -5
the thing is, his toxic behavior wasn't limited to sqH as some people believe. yes, he didn't always behave the way he did and was genuinely a good mate to her for most of their relationship. but in starlight and twilight, you can see how terrible he can treat her with the hawkfrost argument. when all she did was say she had a bad feeling about hawkfrost, brambleclaw immediately assumed it was her judging him for his father and twisted her words to make it seem like by not trusting hawkfrost, she didn't trust brambleclaw, because they share a father. he constantly twists her words, back then and now. a lot of their arguments in sqh consisted of him twisting every point she made to make her look like she had poor judgement or was disloyal to her clan when she made a lot of great points and only meant well. and every time she reached out in starlight, he always pushed her away which finally drove her to end their friendship and start hanging out with ashfur. he can't understand in any way how this could be his fault and then starts tormenting her and ashfur and purposefully looks for opportunities to berate both of them when neither were doing anything wrong. instead of fixing his relationship with squirrelflight, he feels the need to punish her. sound familiar? they're both terrible at communication and while i only picked on brambleclaw, squirrelflight definitely could have done better on her part too, but i wanted to bring up that he has mistreated her in the past and sqh is just a repetition of his toxic actions. Starlight and Twilight was when they weren't together and also a lifetime ago in terms of the series. If Squirrelflight is only bringing up an issue with that behavior years later when Brambleclaw isn't acting the same way (yet), then her question is very unjustified. Brambleclaw gets worse later in Squirrelflight's Hope, but that's later, not in the scene being discussed here.
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Apr 7, 2021 17:15:09 GMT -5
the thing is, his toxic behavior wasn't limited to sqH as some people believe. yes, he didn't always behave the way he did and was genuinely a good mate to her for most of their relationship. but in starlight and twilight, you can see how terrible he can treat her with the hawkfrost argument. when all she did was say she had a bad feeling about hawkfrost, brambleclaw immediately assumed it was her judging him for his father and twisted her words to make it seem like by not trusting hawkfrost, she didn't trust brambleclaw, because they share a father. he constantly twists her words, back then and now. a lot of their arguments in sqh consisted of him twisting every point she made to make her look like she had poor judgement or was disloyal to her clan when she made a lot of great points and only meant well. and every time she reached out in starlight, he always pushed her away which finally drove her to end their friendship and start hanging out with ashfur. he can't understand in any way how this could be his fault and then starts tormenting her and ashfur and purposefully looks for opportunities to berate both of them when neither were doing anything wrong. instead of fixing his relationship with squirrelflight, he feels the need to punish her. sound familiar? they're both terrible at communication and while i only picked on brambleclaw, squirrelflight definitely could have done better on her part too, but i wanted to bring up that he has mistreated her in the past and sqh is just a repetition of his toxic actions. Starlight and Twilight was when they weren't together and also a lifetime ago in terms of the series. If Squirrelflight is only bringing up an issue with that behavior years later when Brambleclaw isn't acting the same way (yet), then her question is very unjustified. Brambleclaw gets worse later in Squirrelflight's Hope, but that's later, not in the scene being discussed here. even if they weren't together, they were still very close and had feelings for each other at the time and how someone treats another pre-relationship can definitely carry on into the relationship. it's still a point in their relationship whether they were together at the time or not. even if it was a long time ago, you can see how some of his behavior from back then are still prevalent now. i'm not saying this in regards to her question, i'm saying this about his treatment of her in general and how nothing he's done in sqh is new from him and he has mistreated her in the past.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 17:22:03 GMT -5
Starlight and Twilight was when they weren't together and also a lifetime ago in terms of the series. If Squirrelflight is only bringing up an issue with that behavior years later when Brambleclaw isn't acting the same way (yet), then her question is very unjustified. Brambleclaw gets worse later in Squirrelflight's Hope, but that's later, not in the scene being discussed here. even if they weren't together, they were still very close and had feelings for each other at the time and how someone treats another pre-relationship can definitely carry on into the relationship. it's still a point in their relationship whether they were together at the time or not. even if it was a long time ago, you can see how some of his behavior from back then are still prevalent now. i'm not saying this in regards to her question, i'm saying this about his treatment of her in general and how nothing he's done in sqh is new from him and he has mistreated her in the past. I'm not saying he hasn't, I'm just talking about the question in Squirrelflight's Hope specifically. It comes off as very manipulative on Squirrelflight's part without any recent cause to get on Brambleclaw's case like that. Yes, if you stretch things back to TNP then you could find justification there, but if Squirrelflight was referring to TNP then it was not clear at all.
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Apr 7, 2021 18:08:29 GMT -5
even if they weren't together, they were still very close and had feelings for each other at the time and how someone treats another pre-relationship can definitely carry on into the relationship. it's still a point in their relationship whether they were together at the time or not. even if it was a long time ago, you can see how some of his behavior from back then are still prevalent now. i'm not saying this in regards to her question, i'm saying this about his treatment of her in general and how nothing he's done in sqh is new from him and he has mistreated her in the past. I'm not saying he hasn't, I'm just talking about the question in Squirrelflight's Hope specifically. It comes off as very manipulative on Squirrelflight's part without any recent cause to get on Brambleclaw's case like that. Yes, if you stretch things back to TNP then you could find justification there, but if Squirrelflight was referring to TNP then it was not clear at all. I didn't mean to say she was referring to TNP and I don't think she was. I just brought that up because I saw someone ask when Bramblestar mistreated her prior to SqH sjjsj sorry if i was confusing
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Post by crunchyboness on Apr 7, 2021 18:30:55 GMT -5
Whoa, Squirrelflight is definitely not manipulative. If you read foxstep's argument you can clearly see that Squirrelflight is asking a genuine question; Bramblestar is constantly mean to her, never really has any couples-time for her anymore (understandable because he is leader, but it is still worth sympathizing for), gaslights and manipulates her, and lashes out in anger instead of communicating his feelings every time something goes wrong. She is not in the wrong for asking that question after literally being mistreated by him for SO long. She does nothing manipulative while Bramblestar projects all his insecurities on her constantly, belittles her, and never treats her as an equal.
What does Squirrelflight do? Talk back to him? Feel bad? Be loud? Go against his wishes sometimes? She's his mate, not his child or apprentice.
Mistreated by him for so long? What has he even done prior to Squirrelflight's Hope? And where is this gaslighting you speak of prior to it too? As far as we know, their relationship has been fine throughout the whole of the end of OOTS to the beginning of Squirrelflight's Hope and had been fine throughout the period from the end of TNP to the end of PoT. The beginning argument on Squirrelflight's Hope isn't built on any problems in recent memory, the question she asks is entirely unfair. Their relationship prior to Squirrelflight's Hope has never been fine. They are literally the least fine relationship in the entire Warriors series.
In TNP he accused her of hating Hawkfrost because of Tigerstar being their father, when in reality (which he didn't choose to acknowledge) she hated him because he was power-hungry and Leafpaw heard him arguing about Mistyfoot being deputy. Brambleclaw even chooses to keep his dreams with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost from her. It is clear he does not trust her nor does he take her concerns seriously. Before being possessed, he still did this.
He patronizes her during her fling with Ashfur, polices her, and still treats her like an actual child. He went out of his way to order her around in the meanest way possible and becomes immaturely aggressive towards Ashfur, even separating them sometimes (ex; Ashfur wanting to go train Birchpaw and Brambleclaw stopping Squirrelflight with the authority of him being deputy). It's almost as if he's punishing her for hanging out with another guy?
Keep in mind Brambleclaw literally never admits he's wrong in any of these situations and their relationship is only 'fixed' by the crisis situation of foxes/badgers attacking the camp.
They are mostly okay in PO3, but that's likely only because they have kits. There is complete peace in their relationship when they have kits and literally never at any other time in their relationship. This is interrupted when their kits grow up and Brambleclaw/Bramblestar decides that Squirrelflight did something wrong again so he must punish her; the cycle repeats. This is EXTREMELY similar to the structure of actual abuse cycles in real life.
Even still in PO3 though, after Hollyleaf exposes her, Brambleclaw punishes her by ignoring and avoiding her, acting passive-aggressive, and singling her out from other warriors (ex; Squirrelflight scolding Lionblaze for wanting to attack ShadowClan and then Bramblestar contradicting her right after clearly to single her out). His anger stemmed from the fact that she lied to him about their adopted kits is valid, but the way he humiliates her and is cruel to her is not.
In OOTS he demonstrates the exact same behavior and even lashes out at her for not telling him Dovewing was the third cat. Bramblestar clearly shows deflecting behavior and jumps to conclusions. They only reconnect, because, AGAIN, of a crisis situation.
He treated her like this, for like,, a year.
In Bramblestar's Storm Squirrelflight is 'meaner' in a sense, but because there is literally a flood and her Clan is riddled with disease and they aren't taking care of themselves. There is a passage in this SE where Squirrelflight blows up over Jesse and Bramblestar going to fetch a blanket from the twoleg-place, saying that it was stupid to risk their lives for something so dirty and disgusting. After she leaves, Jesse asks, "wow, is she always like this?" And Bramblestar says "yep, pretty much." Even though they aren't technically together in this book, Squirrelflight is STILL being patronized. Squirrelflight also behaves jealously throughout the book because of Jessie, who she argues with. Bramblestar does not defend her at all. Another crisis situation with fighting for ShadowClan & Tawnypelt; they reconcile.
There is yet again peace in their relationship in AVoS when Alderkit and Sparkkit at born, and there is peace until they grow up.
Finally, in Squirrelflight's Hope, Squirrelflight is clearly feeling dejected because Bramblestar is busy and doesn't have time for her. This is understandable, Bramblestar is the leader and he has a lot of political stuff to sort out, especially with SkyClan moving in and everything. After a meeting, they get into a fight about Squirrelflight's idea to benefit all the Clans and Bramblestar attacks her for mentioning that there will be new mouths to feed by newleaf. He deflects and jumps to conclusions again.
"I know!" Bramblestar didn't look at her. "They're old enough to look after themselves. Why are you being so desperate to be responsible for new lives? Isn't being deputy enough?" (Chapter 1, Squirrelflight's Hope). He guilt-trips her wanting kits, something very important and personal to her.
He tries to apologize but still explains it was her fault he got angry at her because she wasn't being on his side at the meeting. This is,, literally an abuse tactic.
After all of this, "don't you love me anymore?" Is not an invalid question. It is not an unfair question. Bramblestar is a horrible mate and Squirrelflight is totally in the right to feel the way she does. Squirrelflight has been feeling unloved, neglected, disappointed, and Bramblestar abuses her verbally, mentally, and emotionally constantly. He is impossible to have a conversation with, he is impossible to trust, and he is scary. Most if not all of his actions towards Squirrelflight are control tactics. Naturally, Squirrelflight is an independent, headstrong, loud character. But with Bramblestar she is submissive and scared.
Squirrelflight spends most of the book feeling replaceable, unworthy of her position, and unimportant. Bramblestar treats her worse than before and Squirrelflight is miserable.
Looking back on it, he did not explicitly gaslight her per say. But he used a million other verbally manipulative abuse tactics against her and,, that makes it worse. Their relationship is not fine, it is toxic and abusive and they both should not be together at all lmao
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Apr 7, 2021 18:45:26 GMT -5
Mistreated by him for so long? What has he even done prior to Squirrelflight's Hope? And where is this gaslighting you speak of prior to it too? As far as we know, their relationship has been fine throughout the whole of the end of OOTS to the beginning of Squirrelflight's Hope and had been fine throughout the period from the end of TNP to the end of PoT. The beginning argument on Squirrelflight's Hope isn't built on any problems in recent memory, the question she asks is entirely unfair. Their relationship prior to Squirrelflight's Hope has never been fine. They are literally the least fine relationship in the entire Warriors series.
In TNP he accused her of hating Hawkfrost because of Tigerstar being their father, when in reality (which he didn't choose to acknowledge) she hated him because he was power-hungry and Leafpaw heard him arguing about Mistyfoot being deputy. Brambleclaw even chooses to keep his dreams with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost from her. It is clear he does not trust her nor does he take her concerns seriously. Before being possessed, he still did this.
He patronizes her during her fling with Ashfur, polices her, and still treats her like an actual child. He went out of his way to order her around in the meanest way possible and becomes immaturely aggressive towards Ashfur, even separating them sometimes (ex; Ashfur wanting to go train Birchpaw and Brambleclaw stopping Squirrelflight with the authority of him being deputy). It's almost as if he's punishing her for hanging out with another guy?
Keep in mind Brambleclaw literally never admits he's wrong in any of these situations and their relationship is only 'fixed' by the crisis situation of foxes/badgers attacking the camp.
They are mostly okay in PO3, but that's likely only because they have kits. There is complete peace in their relationship when they have kits and literally never at any other time in their relationship. This is interrupted when their kits grow up and Brambleclaw/Bramblestar decides that Squirrelflight did something wrong again so he must punish her; the cycle repeats. This is EXTREMELY similar to the structure of actual abuse cycles in real life.
Even still in PO3 though, after Hollyleaf exposes her, Brambleclaw punishes her by ignoring and avoiding her, acting passive-aggressive, and singling her out from other warriors (ex; Squirrelflight scolding Lionblaze for wanting to attack ShadowClan and then Bramblestar contradicting her right after clearly to single her out). His anger stemmed from the fact that she lied to him about their adopted kits is valid, but the way he humiliates her and is cruel to her is not.
In OOTS he demonstrates the exact same behavior and even lashes out at her for not telling him Dovewing was the third cat. Bramblestar clearly shows deflecting behavior and jumps to conclusions. They only reconnect, because, AGAIN, of a crisis situation.
He treated her like this, for like,, a year.
In Bramblestar's Storm Squirrelflight is 'meaner' in a sense, but because there is literally a flood and her Clan is riddled with disease and they aren't taking care of themselves. There is a passage in this SE where Squirrelflight blows up over Jesse and Bramblestar going to fetch a blanket from the twoleg-place, saying that it was stupid to risk their lives for something so dirty and disgusting. After she leaves, Jesse asks, "wow, is she always like this?" And Bramblestar says "yep, pretty much." Even though they aren't technically together in this book, Squirrelflight is STILL being patronized. Squirrelflight also behaves jealously throughout the book because of Jessie, who she argues with. Bramblestar does not defend her at all. Another crisis situation with fighting for ShadowClan & Tawnypelt; they reconcile.
There is yet again peace in their relationship in AVoS when Alderkit and Sparkkit at born, and there is peace until they grow up.
Finally, in Squirrelflight's Hope, Squirrelflight is clearly feeling dejected because Bramblestar is busy and doesn't have time for her. This is understandable, Bramblestar is the leader and he has a lot of political stuff to sort out, especially with SkyClan moving in and everything. After a meeting, they get into a fight about Squirrelflight's idea to benefit all the Clans and Bramblestar attacks her for mentioning that there will be new mouths to feed by newleaf. He deflects and jumps to conclusions again.
"I know!" Bramblestar didn't look at her. "They're old enough to look after themselves. Why are you being so desperate to be responsible for new lives? Isn't being deputy enough?" (Chapter 1, Squirrelflight's Hope). He guilt-trips her wanting kits, something very important and personal to her.
He tries to apologize but still explains it was her fault he got angry at her because she wasn't being on his side at the meeting. This is,, literally an abuse tactic.
After all of this, "don't you love me anymore?" Is not an invalid question. It is not an unfair question. Bramblestar is a horrible mate and Squirrelflight is totally in the right to feel the way she does. Squirrelflight has been feeling unloved, neglected, disappointed, and Bramblestar abuses her verbally, mentally, and emotionally constantly. He is impossible to have a conversation with, he is impossible to trust, and he is scary. Most if not all of his actions towards Squirrelflight are control tactics. Naturally, Squirrelflight is an independent, headstrong, loud character. But with Bramblestar she is submissive and scared.
Squirrelflight spends most of the book feeling replaceable, unworthy of her position, and unimportant. Bramblestar treats her worse than before and Squirrelflight is miserable.
Looking back on it, he did not explicitly gaslight her per say. But he used a million other verbally manipulative abuse tactics against her and,, that makes it worse. Their relationship is not fine, it is toxic and abusive and they both should not be together at all lmao
THIS 👏 THIS NAILS EVERY POINT
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 7, 2021 19:15:18 GMT -5
I mean, in my opinion, if anyone’s impossible to trust, it’s the she-cat who lies to Brambleclaw that his own kits who he loved and cherished actually were never his to begin with. Or the time she goes behind his back and betrays his explicit trust as her leader, setting a poor example in an already unstable time in the clans by being a deputy who does exactly the opposite of what he’s saying and then getting cross when he’s genuinely upset by it. I honestly fail to see how Bramblestar is treating her as a child instead of him getting tired of her doing whatever she feels like and scolding her. You know, like a leader should do when his Warriors are unruly. Like what everyone apparently gets on Rowanstar’s case for not doing.
In my opinion, Bramblestar has every right to be pissed and give Squirrelflight a cold shoulder after she didn’t tell him anything about the Three not being his kits. He’s not together with her. I don’t even like BrambleJessy but honestly why is it any of her business if he’s liking another she-cat instead of her? She screwed up, she kept that secret, as unfair as it is with Starclan, she still made her choice.
Also, I’m genuinely not surprised Brambleclaw assumed Squirrelflight was hating Hawkfrost because of who his father was. I mean, the entirity of Thunderclan did that all of Brambleclaw’s childhood. Tawnypelt leaves the clan because of it. It’s not some haha gossip, these are grown Warriors saying awful things about cats who had nothing to do with their father’s actions. Even if Squirrelflight was right that Hawkfrost was bad news, she’s wrong for saying Brambleclaw shouldn’t ever get to know the kin he never got to. Especially when Squirrelflight has her sister and her family is basically beloved by this time in the books.
I’m not saying Brambleclaw hasn’t messed up or been rude and short with Squirrelflight. But why does nobody bring up the multitude of times that she has either started the argument or instigated just as toxic behaviors? She keeps him for knowing his kin, she tricks him into raising kits that were not his own and expects him to just be over it in a week, she’s just as snappy and harsh to him at times as he is to her. She gets obscenely envious of Bramblestar with another she-cat when they are literally not together due to a choice that she made.
There seriously is a difference between a mate snapping at their mate and a leader getting pissed off that his deputy is going behind his back. I genuinely saw the book as more of the latter, honestly. And I’m not saying nobody can call Bramblestar abusive. Call him whatever you want. But if that’s the case then yikes, Squirrelflight is rather abusive herself, and that’s not okay either.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 7, 2021 19:22:21 GMT -5
crunchyboness That's a pretty good breakdown of why Bramblestar has been emotionally unable to handle the relationship well at best, and intentionally manipulative at worst. I do want to acknowledge that some people are just really immature and not aware of their own emotions, how to maturely solve problems, and instead project their issues onto others. If we want to be generous, we can read Bramblestar as being as such a person, but still, this makes him a) not well-equipped to handle a relationship and b) still responsible for his actions. Squirrelflight isn't a great communicator either, yes. She is stubborn, and often insists on doing what she feels is right even if it means risking disapproval and conflict. And the "don't you love me anymore?" wasn't the best way to express her feelings of doubt and worry that they're losing connection with each other. It was a question that came from a genuine place of insecurity, that could be misinterpreted and didn't convey what she really was concerned about. What I'm getting at, is I sensed that as a whole, she was trying to make some sort of effort to express herself as best as she could. Again, to reiterate the kits point, she brought it up once with Bramblestar and when he gave a lukewarm "sure", she backed off because she wanted him to be on the same page as her. Yes, she vented to Leafpool about it often, but there hasn't been evidence in text to suggest she was trying to push him to change his mind. Any time the kits issue has been brought it, it was by Bramblestar himself, when Squirrelflight simply mentions kits in the context of helping OTHER Clans or the Sisters. In TNP, Squirrelflight also voices her worries that maybe Hawkfrost isn't a good cat, but she didn't blow up at Brambleclaw about it until AFTER he continues to brush off her concerns and accuses her of not trusting him. In POT, when the secret of the kits got out, Brambleclaw is rightfully upset and it's fine that he doesn't want to talk to Squirrelflight. But there are numerous occasions where he makes a snide remark or attempts to single her out, even though Squirrelflight clearly expresses remorse and accepts his choice to not want to be with her anymore. If he wanted to make the relationship done and over with, that's fine, but it's seriously not necessary and just outright mean to make these underhanded remarks to her for many years after the fact, instead of choosing to heal and work through his hurt. That's like, the literal opposite of cutting ties, it's as though he wants to punish her for it and keep them both trapped in this cycle. To people who consider Squirrelflight worse or just as bad as Bramblestar, I want to know why you think that way. A relationship is only as healthy as those functioning in it, yes, and I'm willing to give Bramblestar the benefit of the doubt and say his actions came from a place of poor emotional management than a calculated malice/desire to control her. Still, I see more evidence that points to Bramblestar not making as much of an effort to meet Squirrelflight halfway with their communication. Squirrelflight isn't a great communicator and her main flaw is her stubbornness, but at the same time I see a genuine attempt to solve problems together by getting her thoughts and feelings across from her. I see less of that with Bramblestar.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 7, 2021 19:30:37 GMT -5
Needless to say, my piece on it is that they’re both awful with eachother but neither are horrendous monsters that want to purposefully control or destroy eachother like they’re painted out to be. I think that the intense bias to one side is really unfair and that people take popular creator’s words like gospel in a way that ruins experiences for other people. Do I think their relationship is toxic? Yes, they should break up, hopefully both die by the end of the series. But I also do not think Bramblestar is some evil abusive monster and that Squirrelflight is an innocent and incapable maiden in distress of the big bad Bramblestar either.
I just feel bad for people who genuinely want to make content for a cat like Bramblestar or like his character and who get harassed by people who think that he’s the spawn of Satan. I also apologize if I came off shortly in my responses. I’m not intending to belittle anyone’s experiences in real life, I just simply comprehended the book differently.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 19:31:02 GMT -5
Mistreated by him for so long? What has he even done prior to Squirrelflight's Hope? And where is this gaslighting you speak of prior to it too? As far as we know, their relationship has been fine throughout the whole of the end of OOTS to the beginning of Squirrelflight's Hope and had been fine throughout the period from the end of TNP to the end of PoT. The beginning argument on Squirrelflight's Hope isn't built on any problems in recent memory, the question she asks is entirely unfair. Their relationship prior to Squirrelflight's Hope has never been fine. They are literally the least fine relationship in the entire Warriors series.
In TNP he accused her of hating Hawkfrost because of Tigerstar being their father, when in reality (which he didn't choose to acknowledge) she hated him because he was power-hungry and Leafpaw heard him arguing about Mistyfoot being deputy. Brambleclaw even chooses to keep his dreams with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost from her. It is clear he does not trust her nor does he take her concerns seriously. Before being possessed, he still did this.
He patronizes her during her fling with Ashfur, polices her, and still treats her like an actual child. He went out of his way to order her around in the meanest way possible and becomes immaturely aggressive towards Ashfur, even separating them sometimes (ex; Ashfur wanting to go train Birchpaw and Brambleclaw stopping Squirrelflight with the authority of him being deputy). It's almost as if he's punishing her for hanging out with another guy?
Keep in mind Brambleclaw literally never admits he's wrong in any of these situations and their relationship is only 'fixed' by the crisis situation of foxes/badgers attacking the camp.
They are mostly okay in PO3, but that's likely only because they have kits. There is complete peace in their relationship when they have kits and literally never at any other time in their relationship. This is interrupted when their kits grow up and Brambleclaw/Bramblestar decides that Squirrelflight did something wrong again so he must punish her; the cycle repeats. This is EXTREMELY similar to the structure of actual abuse cycles in real life.
Even still in PO3 though, after Hollyleaf exposes her, Brambleclaw punishes her by ignoring and avoiding her, acting passive-aggressive, and singling her out from other warriors (ex; Squirrelflight scolding Lionblaze for wanting to attack ShadowClan and then Bramblestar contradicting her right after clearly to single her out). His anger stemmed from the fact that she lied to him about their adopted kits is valid, but the way he humiliates her and is cruel to her is not.
In OOTS he demonstrates the exact same behavior and even lashes out at her for not telling him Dovewing was the third cat. Bramblestar clearly shows deflecting behavior and jumps to conclusions. They only reconnect, because, AGAIN, of a crisis situation.
He treated her like this, for like,, a year.
In Bramblestar's Storm Squirrelflight is 'meaner' in a sense, but because there is literally a flood and her Clan is riddled with disease and they aren't taking care of themselves. There is a passage in this SE where Squirrelflight blows up over Jesse and Bramblestar going to fetch a blanket from the twoleg-place, saying that it was stupid to risk their lives for something so dirty and disgusting. After she leaves, Jesse asks, "wow, is she always like this?" And Bramblestar says "yep, pretty much." Even though they aren't technically together in this book, Squirrelflight is STILL being patronized. Squirrelflight also behaves jealously throughout the book because of Jessie, who she argues with. Bramblestar does not defend her at all. Another crisis situation with fighting for ShadowClan & Tawnypelt; they reconcile.
There is yet again peace in their relationship in AVoS when Alderkit and Sparkkit at born, and there is peace until they grow up.
Finally, in Squirrelflight's Hope, Squirrelflight is clearly feeling dejected because Bramblestar is busy and doesn't have time for her. This is understandable, Bramblestar is the leader and he has a lot of political stuff to sort out, especially with SkyClan moving in and everything. After a meeting, they get into a fight about Squirrelflight's idea to benefit all the Clans and Bramblestar attacks her for mentioning that there will be new mouths to feed by newleaf. He deflects and jumps to conclusions again.
"I know!" Bramblestar didn't look at her. "They're old enough to look after themselves. Why are you being so desperate to be responsible for new lives? Isn't being deputy enough?" (Chapter 1, Squirrelflight's Hope). He guilt-trips her wanting kits, something very important and personal to her.
He tries to apologize but still explains it was her fault he got angry at her because she wasn't being on his side at the meeting. This is,, literally an abuse tactic.
After all of this, "don't you love me anymore?" Is not an invalid question. It is not an unfair question. Bramblestar is a horrible mate and Squirrelflight is totally in the right to feel the way she does. Squirrelflight has been feeling unloved, neglected, disappointed, and Bramblestar abuses her verbally, mentally, and emotionally constantly. He is impossible to have a conversation with, he is impossible to trust, and he is scary. Most if not all of his actions towards Squirrelflight are control tactics. Naturally, Squirrelflight is an independent, headstrong, loud character. But with Bramblestar she is submissive and scared.
Squirrelflight spends most of the book feeling replaceable, unworthy of her position, and unimportant. Bramblestar treats her worse than before and Squirrelflight is miserable.
Looking back on it, he did not explicitly gaslight her per say. But he used a million other verbally manipulative abuse tactics against her and,, that makes it worse. Their relationship is not fine, it is toxic and abusive and they both should not be together at all lmao
You make it sound as though it was an arbitrary decision. She DID do something wrong, and his reaction to it is not abuse. I can tell from this statement alone that these arguments are being cribbed from Moonkitti's video, mostly because of the massive lack of context. In that exact same scene as you're talking about, Squirrelflight yells at Blossompaw so brusquely that she almost falls out of a tree and it's noted in the narrative that every single cat on the patrol was on edge thanks to the earlier battles. Brambleclaw's actions there are not singling her out anymore than any other cat on the patrol is singling each other out when there was a bad mood in the air. There is no evidence of this. Even in Moonkitti's cherrypicked bunch, the most we get is a couple of negative statements from Brambleclaw, a good number of which become innocuous when placed within the proper context. There is no great humiliation here beyond the kind of petty sniping one might expect in a couple which broke up under bad terms. These seem like incredibly minor things. That's not what happens. "I’m sorry.” He hurried to her side and pressed his muzzle against her cheek. “I shouldn’t have said anything. I was angry. I felt you weren’t on my side at the meeting. I was trying to protect SkyClan.”"At no point does he say it's her fault, he just explains why he was angry. That's not an abuse tactic, I'm sorry. There's no blame of her in that sentence. He says a lot of other really problematic things don't get me wrong, but the problem I'm seeing is that even things which aren't are turned into being an issue. This is one of them. Can what he did be an abuse tactic? Of course it can be, but it's also something I have seen in many things about how to communicate healthily, to talk with "feeling" language to try to get the other person to understand your own perspective. It's not so cut and dry as you paint it with him saying it was her fault. Again, I see Moonkitti's arguments but they lack substance. Squirrelflight is so afraid of Brambleclaw apparently that she defies his will constantly in this book, she is so submissive that she outright tells him face to face that he is wrong on multiple occasions. The fact that she sometimes feels doubt about if the path she is choosing is right is twisted and mangled into a version of the story where Squirrelflight quavers before Brambleclaw, but quite frankly the only one quavering in the book is Brambleclaw whenever Tigerheart so much as breathes in his direction. She is no less headstrong than before, she just faces a difficult choice and isn't sure of what the right path is. They shouldn't be together because deputy-leader relationships are a bad idea, on that I can agree. But the idea that Brambleclaw is historically abusive in cycles to her holds no water. The only times there was anything approaching that were towards the tail end of TNP and in Squirrelflight's Hope, at no other time is this a real thing. The OOTS examples are torn out of context in a manner to create a misleading narrative and the Bramblestar's Storm examples don't mean much of anything either. Does that lessen how bad it is in Squirrelflight's Hope or TNP? No, but it does make Squirrelflight's words at the beginning of Squirrelflight's Hope much more unjustified since Brambleclaw as of that moment hasn't actually done anything to merit the question yet. He will do so later in the book, and he did so in TNP, but at no other time was there any hint of it. I agree, break them up, they're bad for each other, but it's not some case of one being a monster either
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Apr 7, 2021 19:57:50 GMT -5
Still, even if he's leader, it's still awful of him as a mate to punish his own mate instead of communicating with her? They should be professional to an extent but not to a point where he patronizes her for disobeying him, something he did even when he was a deputy and had no reason at all to.
Brambleclaw was definitely singling her out. In The Fourth Apprentice, he berated Squirrelflight for speaking out of turn when every warrior is at liberty to share their opinion at gatherings and commonly do say anyways, and then proceeded to AGREE with her, making it clear his only point to call her out was to embarrass her. That's much different than Squirrelflight telling off an apprentice for climbing the gathering tree which is meant for leaders and anyone else who climbed up is being disrespectful. Yes, he had every right to give her the cold shoulder. But it was very petty of him to keep singling her out when she didn't even say anything wrong (gathering, when she told lionblaze to stop picking fights).
Actually, the part where he blames her is right there in the quote and even beyond that. "I shouldn’t have said anything. I was angry. I felt you weren’t on my side at the meeting. I was trying to protect SkyClan." This is still blaming her for his actions. And after that he calls her foolish for undermining him when she never did so and only suggested a plan that he didn't even openly disagree with, so none of the clans detected weakness anyways?
I also feel like it's unfair to pass off every argument as coined by Moonkitti. I understand that a huge wave of Squirrelflight support was in light of watching Moonkitti's video but some of us may have had these opinions even before Moonkitti made these videos and it's unfair to claim every argument as just following a popular influencer? I don't know about anyone else but I had my opinions before watching Moon's video and seeing her video just strengthened these opinions, rather than producing them.
She is definitely scared of Bramblestar. I know everyone can have a different interpretation of it but I personally felt like her avoiding Bramblestar or telling Leafpool she's nervous to talk to him because that might make things worse between them show she can't trust him to have an understanding conversation with her which is fueled by how often he twists her words in this book and exudes control over her by making her run every decision by her when that's unfair to any deputy, especially a mate.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 7, 2021 20:12:36 GMT -5
crunchyboness, sorry, my post about Bramblestar and Alderheart wasn't meant to come off as rude. I felt like you were really exaggerating Bramblestar's role as a father since the book makes it pretty clear that Leafpool and Jayfeather had taken an interest in Alderpaw since they were staring at him, and when Alderpaw's first hunt goes wrong, all Bramblestar does is comfort him. Even when he tells him about Leafpool and Jayfeather's vision, he's nothing but kind and sympathetic. There's really nothing to indicate that Bramblestar considered his son an embarrassment unless you take Alderpaw's insecurities literally. This isn't to say that his feelings are invalid (I myself suffer from anxiety, so I know what it's like), but nothing in the first book really supports his worries, either. Not listening to him as a medicine cat though, that I get.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 7, 2021 20:23:11 GMT -5
Still, even if he's leader, it's still awful of him as a mate to punish his own mate instead of communicating with her? They should be professional to an extent but not to a point where he patronizes her for disobeying him, something he did even when he was a deputy and had no reason at all to. Brambleclaw was definitely singling her out. In The Fourth Apprentice, he berated Squirrelflight for speaking out of turn when every warrior is at liberty to share their opinion at gatherings and commonly do say anyways, and then proceeded to AGREE with her, making it clear his only point to call her out was to embarrass her. That's much different than Squirrelflight telling off an apprentice for climbing the gathering tree which is meant for leaders and anyone else who climbed up is being disrespectful. Yes, he had every right to give her the cold shoulder. But it was very petty of him to keep singling her out when she didn't even say anything wrong (gathering, when she told lionblaze to stop picking fights). Actually, the part where he blames her is right there in the quote and even beyond that. "I shouldn’t have said anything. I was angry. I felt you weren’t on my side at the meeting. I was trying to protect SkyClan." This is still blaming her for his actions. And after that he calls her foolish for undermining him when she never did so and only suggested a plan that he didn't even openly disagree with, so none of the clans detected weakness anyways? I also feel like it's unfair to pass off every argument as coined by Moonkitti. I understand that a huge wave of Squirrelflight support was in light of watching Moonkitti's video but some of us may have had these opinions even before Moonkitti made these videos and it's unfair to claim every argument as just following a popular influencer? I don't know about anyone else but I had my opinions before watching Moon's video and seeing her video just strengthened these opinions, rather than producing them. She is definitely scared of Bramblestar. I know everyone can have a different interpretation of it but I personally felt like her avoiding Bramblestar or telling Leafpool she's nervous to talk to him because that might make things worse between them show she can't trust him to have an understanding conversation with her which is fueled by how often he twists her words in this book and exudes control over her by making her run every decision by her when that's unfair to any deputy, especially a mate. Yes, but leaders should punish insubordinate deputies too. Hence the big problem with leader deputy relationships. It just shouldn't happen, it's too easy to go wrong. He shouldn't punish her as her mate, but as her leader he should. This conflict is behind a lot of the problems. The Gathering snipe was petty, but the one with Lionblaze had everyone on the patrol being sour. It wasn't just them two, everyone on it was snapping at each other and it was noted by Lionblaze how everyone was in a bad mood. And if the Gathering one is really the only example of such, it's quite a small thing to be resting the argument on. That quote isn't blaming her. It's explaining why he felt the way that he did, but he doesn't pass moral judgement on her as in the very same sentence he's also lamenting that he shouldn't have acted in that fashion. Explaining one's actions and blaming them are not the same thing, and the way in which he says that he merely felt that way rather than saying something like "It's all because you weren't on my side" makes it far more likely it's simply an attempt to be honest in that particular sentence. The rest of the conversation proceeds to go downhill I'll agree, but it has a lot to do with Brambleclaw being a paranoid coward who jumps at Tigerheart's shadow. He's not imagining Squirrelflight causing problems but rather imagining up some doomsday scenario where Tigerheart imagines some weakness. Again though, big problem with leader deputy relationships(and the fact that he's a poor leader and shouldn't have become one) I say they're Moonkitti's arguments because some of them are pretty clearly the same spliced out of context scenes I saw in her video. It's possible someone else independently came to the same conclusion and spliced the exact same scenes out, but I hardly think it's a stretch that a video with hundreds of thousands of views might be behind it. If it's not, then the same thing applies, I feel it splices out context.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 21:25:41 GMT -5
On the Bramblestar vs Squirrelflight front, one thing that should be noted, is that in every instance where they're fighting, we don't ever see it from Bramblestar's POV. The only time we ever see things from his perspective is in Bramblestar's Storm, and that's when he and Squirrelflight were temporarily broken up, so even in the books there's a pretty big bias there.
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Post by crunchyboness on Apr 7, 2021 21:49:48 GMT -5
I mean, in my opinion, if anyone’s impossible to trust, it’s the she-cat who lies to Brambleclaw that his own kits who he loved and cherished actually were never his to begin with. Or the time she goes behind his back and betrays his explicit trust as her leader, setting a poor example in an already unstable time in the clans by being a deputy who does exactly the opposite of what he’s saying and then getting cross when he’s genuinely upset by it. I honestly fail to see how Bramblestar is treating her as a child instead of him getting tired of her doing whatever she feels like and scolding her. You know, like a leader should do when his Warriors are unruly. Like what everyone apparently gets on Rowanstar’s case for not doing. In my opinion, Bramblestar has every right to be pissed and give Squirrelflight a cold shoulder after she didn’t tell him anything about the Three not being his kits. He’s not together with her. I don’t even like BrambleJessy but honestly why is it any of her business if he’s liking another she-cat instead of her? She screwed up, she kept that secret, as unfair as it is with Starclan, she still made her choice. Also, I’m genuinely not surprised Brambleclaw assumed Squirrelflight was hating Hawkfrost because of who his father was. I mean, the entirity of Thunderclan did that all of Brambleclaw’s childhood. Tawnypelt leaves the clan because of it. It’s not some haha gossip, these are grown Warriors saying awful things about cats who had nothing to do with their father’s actions. Even if Squirrelflight was right that Hawkfrost was bad news, she’s wrong for saying Brambleclaw shouldn’t ever get to know the kin he never got to. Especially when Squirrelflight has her sister and her family is basically beloved by this time in the books. I’m not saying Brambleclaw hasn’t messed up or been rude and short with Squirrelflight. But why does nobody bring up the multitude of times that she has either started the argument or instigated just as toxic behaviors? She keeps him for knowing his kin, she tricks him into raising kits that were not his own and expects him to just be over it in a week, she’s just as snappy and harsh to him at times as he is to her. She gets obscenely envious of Bramblestar with another she-cat when they are literally not together due to a choice that she made. There seriously is a difference between a mate snapping at their mate and a leader getting pissed off that his deputy is going behind his back. I genuinely saw the book as more of the latter, honestly. And I’m not saying nobody can call Bramblestar abusive. Call him whatever you want. But if that’s the case then yikes, Squirrelflight is rather abusive herself, and that’s not okay either. How is Squirrelflight abusive??
Squirrelflight didn't WANT to take Leafpool's kits. The situation was thrust onto her suddenly and she was pressured into it by outside forces. I feel like everyone forgets that Yellowfang literally lied to Squirrelflight about her being infertile to manipulate her into taking them. At the time she thought taking Leafpool's kits was going to be her only chance at being a mother, a role she obviously loves and holds close to her heart. Leafpool is also Squirrelflight's sister and it's been proven time and time again they'd both do ANYTHING for each other, how could she not take her kits knowing what would happen to Leafpool if she didn't?
Was it okay for her to lie to Brambleclaw? Probably not. But Squirrelflight did not trust him with that secret for OBVIOUS reasons. I wouldn't trust him either. Perhaps if he were a better mate, a better person, and actually treated Squirrelflight as an equal, she would've told him. She didn't expect him to get over it, but she did expect him to try to understand and sympathize with her like a normal person who isn't insecure about every little thing.
Bramblestar doesn't even realize what she did was justified until Bramblestar's Storm where he's thrown into a situation where he has to help Tawnypelt. It's ridiculous how long it took him to put himself in her shoes, especially since he has a sister himself.
The point of Brambleclaw's behavior being wrong during TPN with Hawkfrost is that he was projecting his insecurities of how people viewed him based on his father onto Squirrelflight. She snapped at him because he was accusing her of completely unrelated thoughts and even implied SHE hated HIM for being Tigerstar's son. Her defending herself is not abusive or mean behavior. His actions at the time made it clear that he did not trust her, and that hurt her.
The only times Squirrelflight is truly snappy and harsh is when Bramblestar is scolding her or being rude to her. As the story progresses she even stops doing this and is rendered submissive. She's not being mean or difficult, she's defending herself from a controlling POS. It's made clear that Squirrelflight is not usually the type of character to let people walk all over her multiple times, not just by Bramblestar either. Bramblestar treats Squirrelflight like a child by scolding her constantly whenever she does something HE doesn't like or isn't "careful enough" or doesn't "do it right". He is never not exercising some form of power or authority over her - in fact there is not a time in their relationship where Squirrelflight isn't beneath him in Clan hierarchy. Every time he gets angry at her he is always calling her "lazy apprentice" or tells her she's "acting like an apprentice" and belittles her, saying she her actions and thoughts are wrong and incorrect regardless of how morally correct they are. I'm pretty sure he even criticizes her for having fun with Ashfur.
If you want to criticize her for "going behind her leader's back" then you need to hold Firestar and every other cat who's ever done the opposite of what their leader wanted them to do to the same standard. If you're talking about the scene I mentioned, Squirrelflight was doing it for the greater good of the Clans; everyone would've gotten a lot more territory and SkyClan would've basically had the outside of the lake. Bramblestar was criticizing her idea by claiming she didn't know what was out there, so what did she do? She literally took action and went and checked the completely empty territory while Bramblestar sat in camp and worried about how the other Clan leaders thought of him because Squirrelflight didn't agree with him at the meeting. If Squirrelflight & Leafstar hadn't have gone and checked then nobody would've known The Sisters were there and something worse could've happened.
Yes, Squirrelflight did act jealous and immature when Jesse was around. I never said that was fine for her to be that way. But feeling jealous because your cat ex-husband is dating another she-cat is not abuse and it doesn't suddenly make her a bad character lmao. Squirrelflight has never used any legitimate abuse tactics on Brambleclaw/Bramblestar VS the handful he's used on her.
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Post by mapleleafsunset on Apr 8, 2021 1:31:22 GMT -5
crunchybonessI don't have much to add but I entirely agree with you here. Everyone forgets that all Squirrelflight was doing was literally defending herself from his abusive behaviour, that doesn't make her abusive that means that she's trying to cope/get herself out of this situation. For everyone saying the two should just communicate better, it's incredibly hard to communicate with an abuser I'm sure, and everytime Squirrel shares her view she's shut down at told she's acting like an apprentice, of course she wouldn't endlessly keep trying to communicate when it becomes hopeless
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 8, 2021 6:12:28 GMT -5
I mean, in my opinion, if anyone’s impossible to trust, it’s the she-cat who lies to Brambleclaw that his own kits who he loved and cherished actually were never his to begin with. Or the time she goes behind his back and betrays his explicit trust as her leader, setting a poor example in an already unstable time in the clans by being a deputy who does exactly the opposite of what he’s saying and then getting cross when he’s genuinely upset by it. I honestly fail to see how Bramblestar is treating her as a child instead of him getting tired of her doing whatever she feels like and scolding her. You know, like a leader should do when his Warriors are unruly. Like what everyone apparently gets on Rowanstar’s case for not doing. In my opinion, Bramblestar has every right to be pissed and give Squirrelflight a cold shoulder after she didn’t tell him anything about the Three not being his kits. He’s not together with her. I don’t even like BrambleJessy but honestly why is it any of her business if he’s liking another she-cat instead of her? She screwed up, she kept that secret, as unfair as it is with Starclan, she still made her choice. Also, I’m genuinely not surprised Brambleclaw assumed Squirrelflight was hating Hawkfrost because of who his father was. I mean, the entirity of Thunderclan did that all of Brambleclaw’s childhood. Tawnypelt leaves the clan because of it. It’s not some haha gossip, these are grown Warriors saying awful things about cats who had nothing to do with their father’s actions. Even if Squirrelflight was right that Hawkfrost was bad news, she’s wrong for saying Brambleclaw shouldn’t ever get to know the kin he never got to. Especially when Squirrelflight has her sister and her family is basically beloved by this time in the books. I’m not saying Brambleclaw hasn’t messed up or been rude and short with Squirrelflight. But why does nobody bring up the multitude of times that she has either started the argument or instigated just as toxic behaviors? She keeps him for knowing his kin, she tricks him into raising kits that were not his own and expects him to just be over it in a week, she’s just as snappy and harsh to him at times as he is to her. She gets obscenely envious of Bramblestar with another she-cat when they are literally not together due to a choice that she made. There seriously is a difference between a mate snapping at their mate and a leader getting pissed off that his deputy is going behind his back. I genuinely saw the book as more of the latter, honestly. And I’m not saying nobody can call Bramblestar abusive. Call him whatever you want. But if that’s the case then yikes, Squirrelflight is rather abusive herself, and that’s not okay either. How is Squirrelflight abusive??
Squirrelflight didn't WANT to take Leafpool's kits. The situation was thrust onto her suddenly and she was pressured into it by outside forces. I feel like everyone forgets that Yellowfang literally lied to Squirrelflight about her being infertile to manipulate her into taking them. At the time she thought taking Leafpool's kits was going to be her only chance at being a mother, a role she obviously loves and holds close to her heart. Leafpool is also Squirrelflight's sister and it's been proven time and time again they'd both do ANYTHING for each other, how could she not take her kits knowing what would happen to Leafpool if she didn't?
Was it okay for her to lie to Brambleclaw? Probably not. But Squirrelflight did not trust him with that secret for OBVIOUS reasons. I wouldn't trust him either. Perhaps if he were a better mate, a better person, and actually treated Squirrelflight as an equal, she would've told him. She didn't expect him to get over it, but she did expect him to try to understand and sympathize with her like a normal person who isn't insecure about every little thing.
Bramblestar doesn't even realize what she did was justified until Bramblestar's Storm where he's thrown into a situation where he has to help Tawnypelt. It's ridiculous how long it took him to put himself in her shoes, especially since he has a sister himself.
The point of Brambleclaw's behavior being wrong during TPN with Hawkfrost is that he was projecting his insecurities of how people viewed him based on his father onto Squirrelflight. She snapped at him because he was accusing her of completely unrelated thoughts and even implied SHE hated HIM for being Tigerstar's son. Her defending herself is not abusive or mean behavior. His actions at the time made it clear that he did not trust her, and that hurt her.
The only times Squirrelflight is truly snappy and harsh is when Bramblestar is scolding her or being rude to her. As the story progresses she even stops doing this and is rendered submissive. She's not being mean or difficult, she's defending herself from a controlling POS. It's made clear that Squirrelflight is not usually the type of character to let people walk all over her multiple times, not just by Bramblestar either. Bramblestar treats Squirrelflight like a child by scolding her constantly whenever she does something HE doesn't like or isn't "careful enough" or doesn't "do it right". He is never not exercising some form of power or authority over her - in fact there is not a time in their relationship where Squirrelflight isn't beneath him in Clan hierarchy. Every time he gets angry at her he is always calling her "lazy apprentice" or tells her she's "acting like an apprentice" and belittles her, saying she her actions and thoughts are wrong and incorrect regardless of how morally correct they are. I'm pretty sure he even criticizes her for having fun with Ashfur.
If you want to criticize her for "going behind her leader's back" then you need to hold Firestar and every other cat who's ever done the opposite of what their leader wanted them to do to the same standard. If you're talking about the scene I mentioned, Squirrelflight was doing it for the greater good of the Clans; everyone would've gotten a lot more territory and SkyClan would've basically had the outside of the lake. Bramblestar was criticizing her idea by claiming she didn't know what was out there, so what did she do? She literally took action and went and checked the completely empty territory while Bramblestar sat in camp and worried about how the other Clan leaders thought of him because Squirrelflight didn't agree with him at the meeting. If Squirrelflight & Leafstar hadn't have gone and checked then nobody would've known The Sisters were there and something worse could've happened.
Yes, Squirrelflight did act jealous and immature when Jesse was around. I never said that was fine for her to be that way. But feeling jealous because your cat ex-husband is dating another she-cat is not abuse and it doesn't suddenly make her a bad character lmao. Squirrelflight has never used any legitimate abuse tactics on Brambleclaw/Bramblestar VS the handful he's used on her.
No. Squirrelflight gets no excuses for the POT thing. She doesn’t. Make an argument for anything else and I may agree with some points, but no. Not this one. Squirrelflight is absolutely the only one to blame for this situation besides Starclan being Starclan. You do not get to lie to your mate and make him raise kits that are not his and expect him to be kind and soft with you afterwards. The reasonings leading up to it do not matter. They really don’t. People don’t get to turn around and blame Brambleclaw for this situation, because that’s obscenely unfair. “He was a bad mate so he gets to be lied to and should shut his mouth and keep raising kits that aren’t even his and instantly forgive the she-cat who hid the truth from him.” No. Absolutely not. Because most of this bad mate crap is biased speculation and holds no proof beyond Brambleclaw calling an immature cat immature. Which she is. Squirrelflight has always been headstrong, brash and immature. She really has. Why is it suddenly abuse when Bramblestar also defends himself in arguments? Honestly he has no obligation to forgive her for it or be the one to try to mend the bridge she willingly broke between them. She could have told him earlier. Nothing was stopping her. She’s willing to go behind her leader’s back plenty of times, what’s stopping her from being honest with her mate about something serious like this? Why is Squirrelflight the only one that gets to defend herself and it’s not called abusive? Why can’t Brambleclaw defend himself too? The whole point of my argument is that either both of them are abusive to eachother or neither of them are abusive. Not one or the other. And no biased argument you post is going to change that opinion. Because every moment of brutal abuse that people are claiming are nothing more than petty spats between an incompatible couple. But Bramblestar’s comments aren’t even all that wrong. She didn’t know what was out there. She’s being a deputy who openly argues at gatherings instead of talking to him beforehand. Now Thunderclan looks divided in front of Tigerstar, who is literally being a pretty big issue in this book. A leader getting pissed at his deputy is not abuse to me. It really isn’t. And I can understand how you or anyone else would view all these moments as some nasty ploy on Bramblestar’s side to control and abuse his mate, but I do not see it that way, not at all. We’re going to have to agree to disagree at this point, because I really don’t have the energy to do a circling argument. You hate Bramblestar, and that’s fine, but I don’t, and I’m not going to act like he’s entirely to blame for a very mutually negative couple.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 8, 2021 6:59:47 GMT -5
On the Bramblestar vs Squirrelflight front, one thing that should be noted, is that in every instance where they're fighting, we don't ever see it from Bramblestar's POV. The only time we ever see things from his perspective is in Bramblestar's Storm, and that's when he and Squirrelflight were temporarily broken up, so even in the books there's a pretty big bias there. I doubt that EVERY instance is shown from Squirrel's perspective. What about their fights in TNP? Brambleclaw was the main perspective character in this series. I find it hard to believe that for all the times they bickered and fought, esp re Hawk and Ashfur, it was all only on Squirrel's pov. What about the big one in POT? The way he treated her in OOTS? Those were from Holly, Lion and Jay's perspective. Lion and Jay were angry at both Leafpool and Squirrelflight in OOTS, but even they felt that Brambleclaw was harsh and singling out Squirrelflight. Like, this isn't just fan speculation it's literally in the text. If even another character mentions that Brambleclaw is hurting her deliberately when they really shouldn't have anything to do with each other anymore, then that's what other characters in the book literally see and tell us readers. Like, Lionblaze is established to be very angry at Squirrelflight for her lie, but even he cringes at the way Brambleclaw treated her. There isn't a Squirrelflight bias there, it's from other cat's perspective. Yeah, Squirrelflight's Hope was shown from her perspective, and it's also the book when Bramblestar is at his worst with her. When we get her POV, sure we're let into her headspace and see why she justified taking the action she did, and why she felt the way she did. But just because we have access to this headspace, doesn't mean we can't still take the objective actions and direct quotes from other characters and evaluate them as impartially as we can. Like, there isn't any bias in saying that Squirrelflight doesn't bring up the kits issue to Bramblestar after the first chapter, and any time in the text it is brought up, it is by Bramblestar himself. That's simply a fact. And we use factual statements like this to piece together what's going on. Yes, the book being from Squirrel's POV means we're missing other facts that another character would have access to, and unfortunately we are going to miss those pieces by way of the book using in a POV character. But nonetheless we're still basing our claim that Bramblestar treated Squirrelflight much more poorly than she did him ON the facts we were presented. Also, just to make my stance clear, I don't fully agree that this relationship is abusive. I think it's unhealthy and toxic, and there are elements of abuse in it, that makes it dangerously close to becoming one. But while I feel like Bramblestar does treat Squirrelflight with at least some malicious intent, I don't think he is intentionally trying to control her. In Bramblestar's Storm it shows that he does genuinely care and respect Squirrelflight. But it is relatively inconsistent with some Brambleclaw portrayals in other books. In this book he inwardly appreciates how headstrong Squirrelflight is, and believes her capable and able to challenge him productively. He also made her deputy because, his words in TLH, she is a cat he trusts the most. Yet in other books he calls her an apprentice and SqH outright punishes her to do apprentice duties, and reacts aggressively because he feels she doesn't trust hum. Squirrelflight's headstrong nature means she isn't afraid to express what she wants, and imo that's a strength in this relationship. However, there is less of that on Bramblestar's part. I noticed that in Bramblestar's Storm, even if Bramblestar internally understands Squirrelflight or finds a reason to be sympathetic, he doesn't always express or show this. Instead, he hides that beneath the air of must take professional action. It's not necessarily wrong, but what their conflict needs to be resolved is opening up honestly to reach mutual understanding. Squirrelflight, after feeling understood, often is willing to compromise with him. Even if she snaps and can be harsh, lets things go quickly. In Bramblestar's Storm: I think as a whole and depending on which portrayal of Bramblestar there is, the SquirrelBramble relationship is salvageable, and could be made into a healthy one, provided they are both willing to express each other's perspectives clearly and understand each other. Their relationship is fine in Bramblestar's Storm, they both try to meet each other half way when they disagree, which is funny since the best their relationship has been was when they aren't fully romantically involved. Still, later, they aren't just deputy and leader anymore, they are also mates, and when the relationship is intertwined with both, it's hard to separate the professional relationship from the personal. It takes a good deal of careful navigation that they don't seem to be aware of.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 7:49:43 GMT -5
αɳσɱαʅყ I'll admit that I forgot that Bramblestar had a POV, but never did I say that we only see their fights through Squirrelflight's POV. If you pay attention, you'll notice that these books are strongly biased in Squirrelflight's favor, and it's kind of nonsense to say that isn't true, just because one of the Erins listed Squirrelflight as their least favorite character. Squirrelflight can break the rules, put her own feelings above everyone else, and she'll turn out to be right in the end. Even on the lying about kits thing, the books made it seem like Squirrelflight was in the right with that. Or at least they tried painting her as way more sympathetic than Bramblestar.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 8, 2021 8:31:18 GMT -5
αɳσɱαʅყ I'll admit that I forgot that Bramblestar had a POV, but never did I say that we only see their fights through Squirrelflight's POV. If you pay attention, you'll notice that these books are strongly biased in Squirrelflight's favor, and it's kind of nonsense to say that isn't true, just because one of the Erins listed Squirrelflight as their least favorite character. Squirrelflight can break the rules, put her own feelings above everyone else, and she'll turn out to be right in the end. Even on the lying about kits thing, the books made it seem like Squirrelflight was in the right with that. Or at least they tried painting her as way more sympathetic than Bramblestar. Squirrelflight was scorned by her own children, and Brambleclaw, for lying to them. She and Leafpool acknowledged what they did caused a lot of hurt, and broken trust. The story presents Squirrelflight's actions as sympathetic, but also hurtful and not without consequences, which is made very clear. If you don't believe she deserves sympathy, that says more about your moral boundaries than the books' imo. I was a child who grew up not knowing my birth father wasn't the same as the person who raised me until I was a teenager. I understand the position my mother was in, so I can extend my sympathy to her even if she had kept this a secret from me. I think Squirrelflight should be presented in a sympathetic light, and that's from my own experiences with a situation similar to hers. Because, it sounds like you have less of an issue with the books being biased towards Squirrelflight and more with the fact that she's forgiven for her actions in the story. If you don't think she deserves forgiveness, that is your own opinion. But I don't think it's fair to say the books are biased for Squirrelflight just because it wants to portray this kind of topic as sympathetic. Squirrelflight isn't the only character to break rules. Why not say the whole series is biased towards Firestar, then? He puts his feelings first, which leads him to breaking rules, and his actions are portrayed as doing something for the greater good. What about Bluefur and her situation with Oakheart and the kits? She could have stayed in line and not have kits, but she chose to anyways. Instead, she ended up involving so many cats who don't have an obligation to help her with the kits, and she's never vilified for having them. She's presented sympathetically. Is the story biased towards her? Why not say the books are biased towards StarClan, for presenting them as all-knowing and necessary to keep around when they probably are not, and have mislead cats like Squirrelflight and forgiven cats like Ashfur. Furthermore, we can agree Mapleshade is terrible, but the situations that lead her to that point were partially exacerbated by flaws in the way Clans operate. If I were in her position, I don't know, maybe I would have lied about the kit's father as well, since I don't have a trusted support system like Silverstream, Bluestar, or Leafpool to keep my secret safe. I wouldn't want to be exiled with a bunch of babies to care for, we all probably wouldn't make it ourselves. Fictional books aren't meant to be objective, they need to portray a subjective perspective to be interesting and for readers to understand a character's situation better. Call it bias if you want, but I say it's about exploring a new angle.
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