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Post by Mothdapple on Apr 5, 2021 14:16:53 GMT -5
Ever since Moonkitti’s video (which I agree with by the way, both Squirrel and Bramble are bad for each other, but Bramble is worse), I have seen some videos going the extra mile with a “Bramblestar is abusive” rhetoric. Yes, he was an jerk to her on multiple occasions plus some gaslighting, but I believe the term “abuse” has been thrown around so much that it had undermined the true meaning and severity of the word. This was the same with how people starting saying Crowfeather was abusive to Nightcloud (which HE WASN’T, it was the other way around, in matter of fact). I have seen videos where the Impostor’s actions can be seen as the actual Bramblestar’s actions, which I can tell have misled some people who aren’t caught up with the books. I don’t like Bramblestar, but I find it frustrating that people try to say he was physically abusive (there’s an argument for mentally abusive) to her when he wasn’t. Moonkitti’s video is all correct and is based off factual book content, but some of these fans have taken it way too far and it’s honestly frustrating. Squirrelflight isn’t all innocent either. They are both bad for each other and they just don’t fit as mates at all.
Here’s one of the animations I was thinking of which can be seen as misleading to anyone who hasn’t read TBC:
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 5, 2021 15:06:33 GMT -5
I can agree that the term abusive could be seen as too strong of a word to describe Bramble/Squirrel. It is very unhealthy and pretty toxic, and it does involve some emotional manipulation on Bramblestar's part. However, I think it can qualify as abusive depending on how you look at it, as the relationship follows the "cycle of abuse" which is mentioned in Moonkitti's video.
Do we know for sure that this increase in portraying Bramble-Squirrel as abusive is a result of Moonkitti's video? I can see how her video, being a major fandom name and all, might have helped shed light on reading Bramble/Squirrel as toxic and negative, but I doubt that video directly caused more people to portray it as abuse.
Besides, I think it's fine that fans want to portray the relationship involving a more obvious power-dynamic where Bramblestar is clearly a textbook abuser. I think fans just want to use these characters to explore an abusive situation, and recognise that this a fan-interpretation that isn't expressed in canon.
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Aroace
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 5, 2021 15:31:46 GMT -5
Bramblestar was definitely written by the authors as being mentally abusive towards Squirrelflight even if that was ultimately decided by the editors, although I doubt that they did so intentionally in any way. I've also seen an abundance of comments on Youtube of people thinking that he was the one to throw her off of highledge and lash out at her before that, despite it actually being Ashfur who physically harmed her. Me, as a fan of both Bramblestar and Squirrelflight, them as individual characters and not the horrendous couple they are together, I'm saddened to now see all of the blame at how their relationship dynamic was problematic, even from the start, being put soely on Bramblestar. Because, while he is for sure "worse", there are fans who seem to completely disregard how some of Squirrelflight's actions have actually instead hurt him in the past. While Moonkitti is correct on most points in her video, I already pointed out in a different comment in the "Hypocrisy in the Warriors Fandom" Thread on here, which also had the fandoms overall response to her essay as a matter of discourse, that she has an obvious bias in favour of Squirrelflight and clearly against Bramblestar which might contribute to her deeming Squirrelflight as constantly doing the right thing and Bramblestar as always being wrong. Although Moonkitti has made a few Twitter statements about the increasing backlash against Bramblestar and the pairing BrambleSquirrel back in November of last year, I feel like people will continue to have heated discussions about this despite of it. Which is, of course, not at all her responsibility to ease but will still create some tense arguments as there are fans who feel passionate about each or both characters, on either side. Here are two of Moonkitti's Tweets about the situation:
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Post by Mothdapple on Apr 5, 2021 16:20:59 GMT -5
Bramblestar was definitely written by the authors as being mentally abusive towards Squirrelflight even if that was ultimately decided by the editors, although I doubt that they did so intentionally in any way. I've also seen an abundance of comments on Youtube of people thinking that he was the one to throw her off of highledge and lash out at her before that, despite it actually being Ashfur who physically harmed her. Me, as a fan of both Bramblestar and Squirrelflight, them as individual characters and not the horrendous couple they are together, I'm saddened to now see all of the blame at how their relationship dynamic was problematic, even from the start, being put soely on Bramblestar. Because, while he is for sure "worse", there are fans who seem to completely disregard how some of Squirrelflight's actions have actually instead hurt him in the past. While Moonkitti is correct on most points in her video, I already pointed out in a different comment in the "Hypocrisy in the Warriors Fandom" Thread on here, which also had the fandoms overall response to her essay as a matter of discourse, that she has an obvious bias in favour of Squirrelflight and clearly against Bramblestar which might contribute to her deeming Squirrelflight as constantly doing the right thing and Bramblestar as always being wrong. Although Moonkitti has made a few Twitter statements about the increasing backlash against Bramblestar and the pairing BrambleSquirrel back in November of last year, I feel like people will continue to have heated discussions about this despite of it. Which is, of course, not at all her responsibility to ease but will still create some tense arguments as there are fans who feel passionate about each or both characters, on either side. Here are two of Moonkitti's Tweets about the situation: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think people have really started to paint Bramblestar as almost like a villain as they try to make Squirrelflight seem completely innocent or a victim. Their relationship is unhealthy on both sides and I believe that them become leader and deputy respectfully made it a lot worse. I agree that Bramblestar is borderline mentally abusive to Squirrelflight at times, but he never hurts her like some people say, and they are making it a much bigger deal than it actually is. The Warriors fandom tosses around the word way too easily. Squirrelflight isn’t an angel like some people make her out to be. She made Bramble believe that Holly, Jay, Lion were theirs for AROUND A YEAR. He was rightfully upset that Squirrel did not trust him with the truth. Bramblestar has definitely got so much slack from the fandom recently, some for good reasons, but some people need to realize that Squirrelflight isn’t innocent. It’s come to a point when people say that Ashfur’s actions in TBC were the actions of the true Bramblestar and I’ve even seen people say that Ashfur would’ve been better for her than Bramblestar (which is a huge NOPE for me).
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 5, 2021 16:29:40 GMT -5
Bramblestar was mentally abusive at best, which is of course still horrible, but I've no idea where all this other stuff is coming from. In terms of the impostor thing though, one argument I've heard is that because hardly anyone stood up to him or noticed anything strange about his harsh behavior that it apparently said more about Bramblestar than the books let on, which I think is ridiculous.
If you're gonna hate a character, at least hate them for the stuff they actually did.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 5, 2021 16:30:07 GMT -5
Do we know for sure that this increase in portraying Bramble-Squirrel as abusive is a result of Moonkitti's video? I can see how her video, being a major fandom name and all, might have helped shed light on reading Bramble/Squirrel as toxic and negative, but I doubt that video directly caused more people to portray it as abuse. Once again, I agree with you, but especially with this part here. My own personal dislike of Bramblestar has nothing to do with the video, but even if her analysis contributed to a rise in Bramble haters... so what? I genuinely don't see why that should be a bad thing, especially since she provided actual textual evidence that people can pause and read at any time anyway.
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Aroace
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 5, 2021 16:34:03 GMT -5
Mothdapple I know that there are a lot of Warriors series fans who also have experienced emotional abuse in their real lives, which often times goes together with physical abuse, so there could be a possibilty that some of them might be projecting their personal feelings onto Bramblestar and his relationship with Squirrelflight. Others, however have simply not read all the books or any of them at all, especially when it comes to the current arc. I'm noticing a return to the "Ashfur would have been better for Squirrelflight" sentiment as well which Moonkitti thankfully does not seem to share as she is rather busy fawning over the Moonlight x Squirrelflight ship instead.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 5, 2021 16:36:34 GMT -5
Mothdapple I know that there are a lot of Warriors series fans who also have experienced emotional abuse in their real lives, which often times goes together with physical abuse, so there could be a possibilty that some of them might be projecting their personal feelings onto Bramblestar and his relationship with Squirrelflight. Others, however have simply not read all the books or any of them at all, especially when it comes to the current arc. I'm noticing a return to the "Ashfur would have been better for Squirrelflight" sentiment as well which Moonkitti thankfully does not seem to share as she is rather busy with fawning over the ship Moonlight x Squirrelflight instead. ironic bc moonlight x squirrelflight is just as gross and toxic
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Post by Mothdapple on Apr 5, 2021 16:39:53 GMT -5
Mothdapple I know that there are a lot of Warriors series fans who also have experienced emotional abuse in their real lives, which often times goes together with physical abuse, so there could be a possibilty that some of them might be projecting their personal feelings onto Bramblestar and his relationship with Squirrelflight. Others, however have simply not read all the books or any of them at all, especially when it comes to the current arc. I'm noticing a return to the "Ashfur would have been better for Squirrelflight" sentiment as well which Moonkitti thankfully does not seem to share as she is rather busy fawning over the Moonlight x Squirrelflight ship instead. Yeah, I completely understand the former. That’s completely fine. But the latter? I hope people realize that they should be fully informed on the books before trying to argue something that isn’t very true.
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Aroace
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 5, 2021 16:41:41 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ Agreed but if Moonkitti likes it then that is completely up to her although if I were to pair Squirrelflight up with any of The Sisters it would be Sunrise as there isn't as much canon evidence of her being a coldhearted sexist.
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Asexual
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Apr 5, 2021 17:07:28 GMT -5
I think in these kinds of situations, it is a very black-and-white one, with a lack of nuance in the fandom- you can only side with Squirrelflight or Brambleclaw, you can either hate/love one or the other, and you can't criticize both cats and their actions or you'll get a ton of backlash from both sides. It just muddies the waters around BrambleSquirrel and makes things worse imo.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 5, 2021 17:17:28 GMT -5
Why would the animation be misleading when the description says "I haven’t actually read the broken code or squirrelflight's hope but heard lots of spoilers about it and bramble getting possessed or something-"
It's pretty clear from that that this is meant to be a possessed Brambleclaw.
Anyway, the Warriors fandom is dramatic and declares itself the arbiter of moral justice on every single hill, more news at 11.
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Post by Mothdapple on Apr 5, 2021 17:19:23 GMT -5
I think in these kinds of situations, it is a very black-and-white one, with a lack of nuance in the fandom- you can only side with Squirrelflight or Brambleclaw, you can either hate/love one or the other, and you can't criticize both cats and their actions or you'll get a ton of backlash from both sides. It just muddies the waters around BrambleSquirrel and makes things worse imo. Exactly. If I criticize Squirrel, I’m called a Bramblestar apologist. Criticizing Bramble is normalized in the community now (which is good), but Squirrel is very flawed as well.
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Post by Mothdapple on Apr 5, 2021 17:20:20 GMT -5
Why would the animation be misleading when the description says "I haven’t actually read the broken code or squirrelflight's hope but heard lots of spoilers about it and bramble getting possessed or something-" It's pretty clear from that that this is meant to be a possessed Brambleclaw. Anyway, the Warriors fandom is dramatic and declares itself the arbiter of moral justice on every single hill, more news at 11. I’ve learned through the years that few people read descriptions on YouTube.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 5, 2021 17:21:59 GMT -5
Why would the animation be misleading when the description says "I haven’t actually read the broken code or squirrelflight's hope but heard lots of spoilers about it and bramble getting possessed or something-" It's pretty clear from that that this is meant to be a possessed Brambleclaw. Anyway, the Warriors fandom is dramatic and declares itself the arbiter of moral justice on every single hill, more news at 11. I’ve learned through the years that few people read descriptions on YouTube. That's on the viewer though. People will see what they want to see, and that's not due to being misleading.
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Aroace
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 5, 2021 17:22:51 GMT -5
Why would the animation be misleading when the description says "I haven’t actually read the broken code or squirrelflight's hope but heard lots of spoilers about it and bramble getting possessed or something-" It's pretty clear from that that this is meant to be a possessed Brambleclaw. This is true but also only for the people who actually check the description of the video, which a lot of people often times don't do and then there is also the issue with some fans who haven't read the current arc and assume that actual Bramblestar is the one assaulting Squirrelflight in the end scene instead of a little incel imposter also known as Ashfur.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 5, 2021 17:24:30 GMT -5
Why would the animation be misleading when the description says "I haven’t actually read the broken code or squirrelflight's hope but heard lots of spoilers about it and bramble getting possessed or something-" It's pretty clear from that that this is meant to be a possessed Brambleclaw. This is true but also only for the people who actually check the description of the video, which a lot of people often times don't do and then there is also the issue with some fans who haven't read the current arc and assume that actual Bramblestar is the one assaulting her in the end scene instead of a little incel imposter also known as Ashfur. I guess, but there's a literal ghost flashing around his head during that scene. It's not subtle.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 5, 2021 17:38:50 GMT -5
This is true but also only for the people who actually check the description of the video, which a lot of people often times don't do and then there is also the issue with some fans who haven't read the current arc and assume that actual Bramblestar is the one assaulting her in the end scene instead of a little incel imposter also known as Ashfur. I guess, but there's a literal ghost flashing around his head during that scene. It's not subtle. A lot of the comments underneath this video are about how they either don't know what is going on or that Bramblestar is abusive, which could either mean their relationship overall or also refer to the actual scene where "Bramblestar" attacks Squirrelflight that might be seen as just another part of the mess that is BrambleSquirrel. If some of them perhaps misinterpreted the end sequence is not set in stone, though it could be possible. The ghost is also an obscure character if some of the commenters have absolutely no idea of what is happening.
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Post by Mothdapple on Apr 5, 2021 17:57:22 GMT -5
I guess, but there's a literal ghost flashing around his head during that scene. It's not subtle. A lot of the comments underneath this video are about how they either don't know what is going on or that Bramblestar is abusive, which could either mean their relationship overall or also refer to the actual scene where "Bramblestar" attacks Squirrelflight that might be seen as just another part of the mess that is BrambleSquirrel. If some of them perhaps misinterpreted the end sequence is not set in stone, though it could be possible. The ghost is also an obscure character if some of the commenters have absolutely no idea of what is happening. The comments are exactly why I started this thread.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 5, 2021 19:48:22 GMT -5
the problem is that "abusive" is, well, relative in definition. everyone can agree it means someone who is toxic and negatively affecting another person in some way, but its exact application is gonna differ between people. so these "bramblestar is/isn't abusive" discussions usually don't make much headway because the people involved have fundamentally different understandings of what entails abuse, and how much abusive behavior a character commits to be labeled abusive.
for instance, some people think one account of manipulation isn't enough to qualify someone as abusive, that you need multiple instances of certain quality. other users believe that one is enough. these people often do not disagree that bramblestar did something wrong, just on the severity of the wrongness and distinction in labeling that behavior. so personally, as long as these discussions center around the specific question of whether he should be labeled "abusive", i dont see much point in the conversation.
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Post by tallshadowstar on Apr 5, 2021 20:13:02 GMT -5
I don't like Moonkitti very much for unrelated reasons, but I still think it's important to call out when these books have harmful messages regardless of the authors' intentions, and it's great that she's done so. The Erins are absolutely not infallible, and have made some very questionable decisions in the past - killing off Ferncloud because she had 'too many babies', initially putting Ashfur in StarClan, and the entirety of Spottedleaf's Heart are good examples of this.
When a young kid reads this series at a formative age, it's likely that what's presented to them will influence their early view of the world. And if they read about a cat who can be interpreted as a bad/abusive partner who is simultaneously upheld as a good partner/person by the narrative, it has the potential to hurt their view of what a healthy relationship should look like.
Let me be clear - I think it's fine to explore less than healthy relationships in fiction, as long as the intended audience can recognize what's being presented to them as unhealthy. I don't hold media meant for adults to the same sort of standard that I do for kids' media. But when you write fiction for kids, I think things need to be more clear-cut. For example, a young reader can easily recognize that someone like Rainflower is abusive, because she's portrayed negatively and never has excuses made for her. But when a character like Bramblestar is constantly mentioned as being noble and kind, while simultaneously treating his mate very poorly - a young reader might assume that's what a good relationship looks like.
This is just my two cents, and it's fine if people disagree.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 5, 2021 21:33:47 GMT -5
When a young kid reads this series at a formative age, it's likely that what's presented to them will influence their early view of the world. And if they read about a cat who can be interpreted as a bad/abusive partner who is simultaneously upheld as a good partner/person by the narrative, it has the potential to hurt their view of what a healthy relationship should look like. Let me be clear - I think it's fine to explore less than healthy relationships in fiction, as long as the intended audience can recognize what's being presented to them as unhealthy. I don't hold media meant for adults to the same sort of standard that I do for kids' media. But when you write fiction for kids, I think things need to be more clear-cut. For example, a young reader can easily recognize that someone like Rainflower is abusive, because she's portrayed negatively and never has excuses made for her. But when a character like Bramblestar is constantly mentioned as being noble and kind, while simultaneously treating his mate very poorly - a young reader might assume that's what a good relationship looks like. This is just my two cents, and it's fine if people disagree. Yeah, you've summed up the heart of the issue here. While Warriors fandom having these debates and making these animations are probably teens or adults, the Warriors series is created for a younger audience and it's important to be more mindful about the ideas that are presented in the story. We already do not have the best education on how to create healthy relationships, and some ideas about love/romance that are in kid's media are simplified and naïve, which can lead to harmful thinking about what relationships are like. Having a dynamic like Squirrelflight and Bramblestar's be presented as normal, in fact I think some people would actually consider their dynamic normal, when it clearly isn't healthy for either character... well it normalises this kind of relationship. It presents the idea to the reader that this kind of dynamic is normal for relationships, that even if your feelings are trampled on, you don't feel heard, and are poorly communicating what you need, it'll all turn be okay because you say you love each other after drama wears you both out to talk things out more deeply. And, like, how many of us know people who get into these kinds of relationships? Sometimes all I need to do is go out to a park, and without looking for it, I'd be listening to somebody telling their friend about a breakup from a toxic relationship, explaining how they thought they could "fix" their ex, or how they'd instigate drama to make things better temporarily. This unhealthy type of relationship is already a common issue! Having it go unchecked in a children's story contributes to the problem where people struggle to identify a toxic relationship. I know it's not intentional, but that kind of proves the point on how normalised it is...
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 5, 2021 22:38:59 GMT -5
I just wish people would stop raging about this whole debacle and about that video and actually read the books for themselves instead of worshipping youtubers and attacking people who genuinely like Bramblestar and don’t find him to be as monstrously abusive as people are claiming him to be. And honest to god, stop painting Squirrelflight out to be some innocent and helpless infant when she’s lied and acted horribly to Bramblestar as well. Still grossed out over her obsession with kits when Bramblestar clearly does not want any and shouldn’t have to feel like he needs to have anymore, but I’m sure that’ll get ignored because apparently she can do no wrong.
Squirrelflight’s Hope was garbage anyway.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 6, 2021 0:54:48 GMT -5
I don't like Moonkitti very much for unrelated reasons, but I still think it's important to call out when these books have harmful messages regardless of the authors' intentions, and it's great that she's done so. The Erins are absolutely not infallible, and have made some very questionable decisions in the past - killing off Ferncloud because she had 'too many babies', initially putting Ashfur in StarClan, and the entirety of Spottedleaf's Heart are good examples of this. When a young kid reads this series at a formative age, it's likely that what's presented to them will influence their early view of the world. And if they read about a cat who can be interpreted as a bad/abusive partner who is simultaneously upheld as a good partner/person by the narrative, it has the potential to hurt their view of what a healthy relationship should look like. Let me be clear - I think it's fine to explore less than healthy relationships in fiction, as long as the intended audience can recognize what's being presented to them as unhealthy. I don't hold media meant for adults to the same sort of standard that I do for kids' media. But when you write fiction for kids, I think things need to be more clear-cut. For example, a young reader can easily recognize that someone like Rainflower is abusive, because she's portrayed negatively and never has excuses made for her. But when a character like Bramblestar is constantly mentioned as being noble and kind, while simultaneously treating his mate very poorly - a young reader might assume that's what a good relationship looks like. This is just my two cents, and it's fine if people disagree. Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I think part of the problem lies with "showing" us versus "telling" us. The books tell us that Bramblestar is a noble, strong, upstanding, and great leader, but when you read a book like Squirrelflight's Hope that portrays Bramblestar...well, as he was in the book, it's quite jarring. I think you touched upon this nicely in the second paragraph. Since we're, well, older, we can see this and be a lot more critical and aware of it. But kids, the age group this series is geared towards, aren't going to see it. Personally that's why I have such an issue with Ashfur being in StarClan. He tried to kill four cats, and played a part in killing another, all because the girl told him no. And despite all he had done, he got granted entry into heaven because not only does the author excuse it, but the narrative. Is that a lesson that children are supposed to learn from reading this? I sure as heck hope not. The Rainflower example is a good one. Throughout Crookedstar's Promise, she's actively abusive and neglectful of Crookedstar, and it's something that's told to us not just by him, but Shellheart, Oakheart, and the narrative itself. But if you look at Bramblestar, he's supposed to be (or at least this is what the editors are trying to do) a good leader and mate, but it's hard to believe that when we see what goes on in SqH. Part of this problem might be because Warriors is geared towards younger audiences, so things a bit more straightforward and clear-cut, such as Tom or Rainflower. But again, you have a situation like this here where Bramblestar's said to be a fantastic leader and mate, but reading the text he kind of...isn't, and seeing a relationship like that can hurt their worldview and how exactly relationships of this kind are supposed to function. It's heavily enforced throughout SqH where we see his actions through the lens of Squirrelflight. She and Bramblestar seem like a functioning and healthy enough couple with the sole exception of SqH (ignoring the drama in PoT and OotS), and it's because we see his actions through Squirrelflight's eyes that make this whole subject so intensely debated, as we're witnessing it from the cat who's closest to him not only by relationship, but also in Clan hierarchy. In fact, part of the problem in their relationship is the power dynamic. It seems to portray this relationship as normal, arguing constantly over the most menial of things. But, then you have ones such as RowanTawny or GorseWind who are in the exact same position in the Clan, but these issues aren't seen or even heard. Clearly the problem lies with Bramblestar and Squirrelflight. Granted, this is coming from someone who likes Bramblestar and doesn't mind Squirrelflight. I think they were both pretty awful in the book (though, Bramblestar was arguably worse) so my response might be a bit biased, but I otherwise do agree with your post. The Erins really aren't...great with writing "complicated" relationships or touchy subjects in general (Spottedleaf's novella comes to mind). It's great and fine to explore less-than-healthy relationships, but they way this was executed, to me anyways, was atrocious. In short; the Erins are telling us one thing, but showing us another, and seeing how this is a fantasy series for kids, I don't think this at all was executed well. Children aren't going to recognize this. They're going to see these two "good" characters bickering and fighting over the most miniscule of things and assume that this is a normalized thing. Which it absolutely isn't. Like you said, it's important to call out the questionable decisions the team has made such as Ashfur in StarClan, killing off Ferncloud for being a permaqueen, killing off Sorreltail for being in a happy relationship (or something to that affect), and the list goes on. Again, I'm no expert on this subject, but these are just my thoughts. You're more than in your right to disagree with me, or if I'm just blatantly incorrect.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 6, 2021 7:28:55 GMT -5
I just wish people would stop raging about this whole debacle and about that video and actually read the books for themselves instead of worshipping youtubers and attacking people who genuinely like Bramblestar and don’t find him to be as monstrously abusive as people are claiming him to be. And honest to god, stop painting Squirrelflight out to be some innocent and helpless infant when she’s lied and acted horribly to Bramblestar as well. Still grossed out over her obsession with kits when Bramblestar clearly does not want any and shouldn’t have to feel like he needs to have anymore, but I’m sure that’ll get ignored because apparently she can do no wrong. Squirrelflight’s Hope was garbage anyway. It's a shame because I recently saw a youtube video for Bramblestar, and the artist was hounded by moonkitti fans demanding they watch their video. For the most part the comment section is now normal, save for comments like "I hate Brambleclaw but love Bramblestar" etc. Or people showing their love for the video and commenting on the wave of hate Bramble is getting. And if you look up Bramblestar on youtube the top results are: And even without taking the newest arc into consideration, there's still plenty of other videos where Bramble is being depicted as a monster because of the Moonkitti video influence. They're especially common in Squirrel x Moon/Shrew/Daisy video, and honestly make me roll my eyes.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 6, 2021 9:01:21 GMT -5
okay i see a lot of comments on this board about being careful about portrayals because younger audiences might not know the difference, but am i the only one who never struggled with that as a kid? like even as an eleven year old, i could look at bramblexsquirrel fighting or squirrel lying about the threes parentage and go “yep thats not good”.
maybe i just had the benefit of good moral education or something that others dont. but i do get kinda wigged out when people talk about kids like theyre all really dumb and just accept anything they read in a book without critical thought at all. my under 8 nephews can do as much. “bramblestar’s mean but the book says he also has good qualities so being mean must have a good quality!” ??? kids are smarter than people generally think
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 6, 2021 9:16:37 GMT -5
okay i see a lot of comments on this board about being careful about portrayals because younger audiences might not know the difference, but am i the only one who never struggled with that as a kid? like even as an eleven year old, i could look at bramblexsquirrel fighting or squirrel lying about the threes parentage and go “yep thats not good”. maybe i just had the benefit of good moral education or something that others dont. but i do get kinda wigged out when people talk about kids like theyre all really dumb and just accept anything they read in a book without critical thought at all. my under 8 nephews can do as much. “bramblestar’s mean but the book says he also has good qualities so being mean must have a good quality!” ??? kids are smarter than people generally think I agree that children are smarter than how some may think. But there are many children who also have unhealthy family situations with parents just like BrambleSquirrel's relationship, and it's still very difficult for a child to understand all the complexities involved in a relationship like this. Children aren't dumb, but the fact is that relationship dynamics are one thing they aren't going to be good at understanding. They may think their parent's situation is normal and what relationships should be like, and when they read children's media that treats this relationship as normal or even Good, it reinforces it. I think what hurts is the tonal dissonance. BrambleSquirrel has a fraught relationship, but often they make up after some big drama and saying "I love you" or something like that. It's one thing to present a complex relationship dynamic in a children's story, but when it also follows a simplified script where everything is fine once they say I love you or something, and the cycle repeats itself, that is actually kind of harmful. It warps the perception on what a healthy relationship is, and simplifies things-- oh they said sorry to each other and are fine now. A lot of adults don't even get how healthy relationships work. Sorry isn't enough, they need to understand the root the issue to prevent it from happening again, and SquirrelBramble have never had a serious talk like this once. I get that the nuances can't all be captured in a children's story, but at least have this tone where a complicated fight requires a complicated talk to reach a solution together. At least it builds the right kind of tone that people need to work together to solve problems, a little sorry I love you isn't going to fix things. I also want to add, I'm not saying this series is wrong for writing SquirrelBramble the way it does. Yeah, for a lot of children they probably have other sources to learn from and this book isn't going to affect them that deeply. But there will also be many children who don't have a healthy support system and learn about relationships from media that they consume. Media is not a good source for learning how to have a healthy relationship, and that's why I do think it is important to consider how our current norms/ideas are reflected by media we create, and how those ideas may get reinforced through its use and consumption.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 6, 2021 9:31:07 GMT -5
I just wish people would stop raging about this whole debacle and about that video and actually read the books for themselves instead of worshipping youtubers and attacking people who genuinely like Bramblestar and don’t find him to be as monstrously abusive as people are claiming him to be. And honest to god, stop painting Squirrelflight out to be some innocent and helpless infant when she’s lied and acted horribly to Bramblestar as well. Still grossed out over her obsession with kits when Bramblestar clearly does not want any and shouldn’t have to feel like he needs to have anymore, but I’m sure that’ll get ignored because apparently she can do no wrong. Squirrelflight’s Hope was garbage anyway. It's a shame because I recently saw a youtube video for Bramblestar, and the artist was hounded by moonkitti fans demanding they watch their video. For the most part the comment section is now normal, save for comments like "I hate Brambleclaw but love Bramblestar" etc. Or people showing their love for the video and commenting on the wave of hate Bramble is getting. And if you look up Bramblestar on youtube the top results are: And even without taking the newest arc into consideration, there's still plenty of other videos where Bramble is being depicted as a monster because of the Moonkitti video influence. They're especially common in Squirrel x Moon/Shrew/Daisy video, and honestly make me roll my eyes. Stuff like that genuinely pisses me off. People need to grow up and stop harassing people for this. It goes to show how mindless the masses can be when one popular artist/creator has a bias. It’s frustrating as all hell when you can’t have a single conversation about Bramblestar without someone blowing their “woke” horn and trashing on you for enjoying a character with heavy flaws and who got shafted in writing in a book 100 percent intending to give Squirrelflight bias.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Apr 6, 2021 11:15:18 GMT -5
okay i see a lot of comments on this board about being careful about portrayals because younger audiences might not know the difference, but am i the only one who never struggled with that as a kid? like even as an eleven year old, i could look at bramblexsquirrel fighting or squirrel lying about the threes parentage and go “yep thats not good”. maybe i just had the benefit of good moral education or something that others dont. but i do get kinda wigged out when people talk about kids like theyre all really dumb and just accept anything they read in a book without critical thought at all. my under 8 nephews can do as much. “bramblestar’s mean but the book says he also has good qualities so being mean must have a good quality!” ??? kids are smarter than people generally think I agree that children are smarter than how some may think. But there are many children who also have unhealthy family situations with parents just like BrambleSquirrel's relationship, and it's still very difficult for a child to understand all the complexities involved in a relationship like this. Children aren't dumb, but the fact is that relationship dynamics are one thing they aren't going to be good at understanding. They may think their parent's situation is normal and what relationships should be like, and when they read children's media that treats this relationship as normal or even Good, it reinforces it. I think what hurts is the tonal dissonance. BrambleSquirrel has a fraught relationship, but often they make up after some big drama and saying "I love you" or something like that. It's one thing to present a complex relationship dynamic in a children's story, but when it also follows a simplified script where everything is fine once they say I love you or something, and the cycle repeats itself, that is actually kind of harmful. It warps the perception on what a healthy relationship is, and simplifies things-- oh they said sorry to each other and are fine now. A lot of adults don't even get how healthy relationships work. Sorry isn't enough, they need to understand the root the issue to prevent it from happening again, and SquirrelBramble have never had a serious talk like this once. I get that the nuances can't all be captured in a children's story, but at least have this tone where a complicated fight requires a complicated talk to reach a solution together. At least it builds the right kind of tone that people need to work together to solve problems, a little sorry I love you isn't going to fix things. I also want to add, I'm not saying this series is wrong for writing SquirrelBramble the way it does. Yeah, for a lot of children they probably have other sources to learn from and this book isn't going to affect them that deeply. But there will also be many children who don't have a healthy support system and learn about relationships from media that they consume. Media is not a good source for learning how to have a healthy relationship, and that's why I do think it is important to consider how our current norms/ideas are reflected by media we create, and how those ideas may get reinforced through its use and consumption. I was one of the children growing up with reading about that problematic BrambleSquirrel relationship in the Warriors series while my parents were constantly arguing and insulting each other only one room away. This actually contributed to my dislike of the pairing even as an eleven year old because it just seems so pointless to be together when they don't even understand or respect each other.
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Post by Amber on Apr 6, 2021 12:57:50 GMT -5
okay i see a lot of comments on this board about being careful about portrayals because younger audiences might not know the difference, but am i the only one who never struggled with that as a kid? like even as an eleven year old, i could look at bramblexsquirrel fighting or squirrel lying about the threes parentage and go “yep thats not good”. maybe i just had the benefit of good moral education or something that others dont. but i do get kinda wigged out when people talk about kids like theyre all really dumb and just accept anything they read in a book without critical thought at all. my under 8 nephews can do as much. “bramblestar’s mean but the book says he also has good qualities so being mean must have a good quality!” ??? kids are smarter than people generally think It's completely true children are way smarter than people give them credit for. A lot of kids know/realize something is bad despite what the text says and have a good grasp on various things. For example, the middle school-aged daughter of one of my coworkers has talked about some of the unhealthy relationships in Warriors with me before. I think it was BrambleSquirrel specifically, but I really don't remember. Point is, kids are very smart and can understand something's bad without it being shown in text. With that said, the people saying what the audience being told versus what is shown have a point. Case and point, Ashfur. I got into the fandom kinda late (a few months before TLH was released) and people were still very vocal about Ashfur being misunderstood and that his actions were okay while Squirrelflight was some awful monster for breaking his heart. While his actions are deplorable and many people (both kids and adults) acknowledged that he was a terrible person, many believed he was justified and even right. That the ridiculous excuse of "he loved too much" was an acceptable reason for attempted murder and trying to ruin some lady's life. So yes, children are very smart and can know the difference between what's said in the text versus what's shown. Most children raised in a healthy environment* will be able to see and acknowledge this. However, let's not pretend that the argument of show versus tell is unfounded because it can definitely skew how people (mostly kids in this case) view something. *This isn't to say children in an unhealthy environment wouldn't be able to tell this either. They definitely can, however if something like the BrambleSquirrel dynamic (I'm not exactly sure what it is beyond toxic and unhealthy as I haven't read the newer books) is normalized for them, they may have a harder time understanding or realizing it's unhealthy. (Sidenote, I really hope this didn't come across as rude or preachy. I really wasn't trying to be either of those things and just wanted to get my two cents in.)
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