|
Post by แแชแ แฝ แพf fแชแแ แพms ใโ on Mar 28, 2021 16:16:01 GMT -5
a lot of people in the community deem any books that feature or deal with the tribe of rushing water as boring and bad.
what would the books need to do for u to consider liking the tribe? is it the tribe as a whole or is it just books involving them?
i think it's mostly to do with the journeys. many people don't like reading journey plots now because it's boring, long/dragged out, and it's the same things over and over (cats face a problem, they conquer it, move on, cross thunderpaths, rinse and repeat, etc.)
i like the idea of the tribe, but as i've said on other topics before, i wish the tribe wasn't related to the clans at all. when they were introduced in TNP, they weren't a part of the clan lore yet (power of three and omen on the stars made the tribe the ancestor place of the clans; and the cats from the lake too. the lake cats became the tribe, then parts of the tribe became the clans, etc.)
the plots involving the tribe in the main series though...it kinda felt pointless after TNP. i wish the tribe remained a stand alone group, not tied to the clans, and that they didnt need the clans' help after TNP...
|
|
|
Post by foxstride on Mar 28, 2021 16:45:30 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. If the Tribe was more standalone, I'd love it! I didn't mind them in DOTC, though admittedly that was pretty brief. My main issue with the Tribe is that we never get to see any of the characters actually develop. They're just names. I know Brook and Stormfur have kits, I know that Stormfur is a cave-guard, I know what Stoneteller does and I know how they hunt but... nothing is memorable about the Tribe's actual members! It's why I don't like the later series where they have so many cats and no development for them. They just exist.
I also feel like all the Tribe plots go the same way: - Clan cats have to travel - Other Clan cats don't want them to go - Clan cats end up travelling - Journey chapter(s), usually only one though unless they drag it out too long (with nothing of consequence happening or just repeating what's wrong) - they reach the Tribe, cats are hostile at first, then someone recognises them - Stoneteller - sharing prey - solution almost immediately - a protagonist debates whether they would prefer to stay with the Tribe forever - the Clan cats leave - journey chapter - nobody ever mentions the Tribe again past "oh the Tribe solved it" or something
TNP did the Tribe well and handled the whole arc fantastically with the Tribe. Every plot afterwards seems to try and capture that spirit and make sure we see how the Tribe are doing without actually giving us... any reason to be attached with it? At least in my experience!
|
|
|
Post by แแชแ แฝ แพf fแชแแ แพms ใโ on Mar 28, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5
foxstrideagreed. they don't really give much to attach to other than stormfur x brook, and even then, it doesnt really meam that much in the grand scheme of things. it's just weird they shoehorned in that the tribe is actually related to the clans...why cant we have a gorup of cats similar to the clans without having them be related to the clans? the sisters in TBC prove theres groups of cats out there that can have powers without needing to come from starclan itself.
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Mar 28, 2021 17:50:32 GMT -5
I actually like the Tribe, but because the space is so limited, I'm not surprised the plots involving them aren't very interesting except for maybe their debut. And honestly, I think I'd prefer it if they either didn't appear in the series anymore or if the Erins somehow managed to do something else with them (not sure what, just something that doesn't involve the Clans saving them again, and this goes for outside groups in general, really). As other fans have stated, their portrayal is pretty offensive.
|
|
|
Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Mar 28, 2021 18:05:18 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, their portrayal is painfully stereotypical and offensive. As someone who grew up on a reservation and was raised traditionally, it's hard to find indigenous characters written by non-native folks enjoyable to read.
Their Tonto speak, stereotypical names, and characteristics of the 'noble savage' is aggravating and it's hard to finish reading the books that include the Tribe because of it.
|
|
|
Post by foxstride on Mar 28, 2021 18:25:50 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, their portrayal is painfully stereotypical and offensive. As someone who grew up on a reservation and was raised traditionally, it's hard to find indigenous characters written by non-native folks enjoyable to read. Their Tonto speak, stereotypical names, and characteristics of the 'noble savage' is aggravating and it's hard to finish reading the books that include the Tribe because of it. Definitely understandable! There are a lot of aspects about the Tribe where, as a kid, it didn't quite sit right with me but I wasn't aware enough (being in one of the whitest places in England) of the issues with it. The past few years have definitely opened my eyes a lot to it and how often the Tribe plots resolve around Clan cats fixing things for them as if they're helpless, plus the whole colonisation attempt against the rogues was... wow.
|
|
|
Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Mar 28, 2021 18:33:30 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, their portrayal is painfully stereotypical and offensive. As someone who grew up on a reservation and was raised traditionally, it's hard to find indigenous characters written by non-native folks enjoyable to read. Their Tonto speak, stereotypical names, and characteristics of the 'noble savage' is aggravating and it's hard to finish reading the books that include the Tribe because of it. Definitely understandable! There are a lot of aspects about the Tribe where, as a kid, it didn't quite sit right with me but I wasn't aware enough (being in one of the whitest places in England) of the issues with it. The past few years have definitely opened my eyes a lot to it and how often the Tribe plots resolve around Clan cats fixing things for them as if they're helpless, plus the whole colonisation attempt against the rogues was... wow. [b The passive aggressive forced assimilation is disgusting. And some readers genuinely want to blame the Tribe for being 'helpless' when it's the editors who wrote the Tribe this way? LMAO
|
|
|
Post by แแชแ แฝ แพf fแชแแ แพms ใโ on Mar 28, 2021 18:59:06 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, their portrayal is painfully stereotypical and offensive. As someone who grew up on a reservation and was raised traditionally, it's hard to find indigenous characters written by non-native folks enjoyable to read. Their Tonto speak, stereotypical names, and characteristics of the 'noble savage' is aggravating and it's hard to finish reading the books that include the Tribe because of it. i never realized this or thought of it like this. i feel bad i never realized it.
|
|
Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
แนขanษypawโข
The Shiny User
๐ตGuess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go๐ต
|
Post by แนขanษypawโข on Mar 28, 2021 21:20:31 GMT -5
As someone else has already said, just a standalone book for the Tribe with no Clan cat appearances. I feel like that's the best way to fully flesh out their culture and other stuff.
|
|
|
Post by Fireleap on Mar 29, 2021 20:37:39 GMT -5
I like the Tribe well enough, but like other people have said the way the Clans force their culture on the Tribe does not sit well with me. It's the same reason I don't like most of Tigerheart's Shadow. I wish we would get a Tribe book with no Clan interference, or at least one where the Clans realize forcing their culture on others is harmful.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 29, 2021 22:11:43 GMT -5
The Tribe isn't inherently bad as a concept but everything surrounding the execution is atrocious. Not only are they saddled with journey plots which already stink by themselves, but their presence is rarely ever justified. They are too far removed from the clans for their problems to matter to the clans so everything with them feels like a filler distraction rather than anything plot relevant. Their gimmick of just being lamer at life than the clans is also kind of pathetic. I can understand a culture not being used to constant war, but the way they just roll over and require being saved just goes beyond the pale.
They'd be better as a stand alone group, but at that point, why even bother talking about them? It's true sure, that a novella or SE dedicated purely to them could be good, but why in the world would I ever want to see that to try to salvage a failure when I could see that applied to characters who are actually good or interesting? Which I think is the biggest problem the Tribe faces. They COULD be renewed, in theory, but there's no real incentive to do so because that would take a lot of time and effort in reviving an idea that the books clearly want to avoid nowadays.
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฏ๐๐๐๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ฃ๐ฏ๐ฌ๐ฐ๐ฑ on Mar 30, 2021 21:00:02 GMT -5
I like some of the Tribe books. Moonrise is really good, in my opinion. So is Tawnypeltโs Clan. The journeys to the tribe in PO3 and OOTS are a bit... irritating though. They genuinely just feel like filler for some bigger plot that we never really see.
|
|
|
Post by Hollyfall on Mar 31, 2021 0:17:39 GMT -5
I like the Tribe as a concept, and some books with them aren't bad in my opinion (Moonrise, Dawn, Tawnypelt's Clan, Graystripe's Vow), but the way they're executed is awful. It feels like if the editors need to pan out a story, they just shove the Tribe in there requiring the Clan cats to go in there and help them as a filler book (looking at you, Sign of the Moon). I'm fine with the Tribe and Clans interacting, but I wish it was something beyond needing the Clans' help because apparently they're too inept to do it themselves. In fact, that's something most if not all non-Clan groups seem to have in common. It's a little irritating.
Vectoring's mostly summed up my thoughts on them. I do agree they'd work well as a stand alone group, but like they pointed out, why even talk about them? I'd be worried they'd make the tribe somehow worse.
|
|
|
Post by Thunderheart57 on Mar 31, 2021 7:41:10 GMT -5
I feel that we didnโt get enough pages dedicated to learning about the Tribeโs customs and traditions in the books they were featured in. Like what some people have said, I would have loved it if the Tribeโs adventures were more standalone similar to how SkyClan was treated. It would have given them time to be actual characters instead of one dimensional characters with only a few traits. I wish that they had more of a bigger role to play in the Omen of the Stars plot. It would have been cool to see them and their ancestors (other than Fallen Leaves and the few ancient cats that did) show up in the Great Battle to help their modern counterparts.
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฏ๐๐๐๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ฃ๐ฏ๐ฌ๐ฐ๐ฑ on Mar 31, 2021 23:59:30 GMT -5
I feel that we didnโt get enough pages dedicated to learning about the Tribeโs customs and traditions in the books they were featured in. Like what some people have said, I would have loved it if the Tribeโs adventures were more standalone similar to how SkyClan was treated. It would have given them time to be actual characters instead of one dimensional characters with only a few traits. I wish that they had more of a bigger role to play in the Omen of the Stars plot. It would have been cool to see them and their ancestors (other than Fallen Leaves and the few ancient cats that did) show up in the Great Battle to help their modern counterparts. That really wouldโve nicely tied together the whole โyou must journey to the mountainsโ thing in OOTS. Like, what if Jayfeather had mentioned to Crag that the Dark Forest was a threat, or the Tribe of Endless Hunting told the new Stoneteller (Crag) about the threat so they could help the Clans for a change. It wouldโve made Jayfeather needing to go to the mountains and picking the new Stoneteller that much more meaningful if it played any significant part at all in the main plot of the arc.
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฏ๐๐๐๐ฆ๐ฑ๐ฃ๐ฏ๐ฌ๐ฐ๐ฑ on Apr 1, 2021 0:00:24 GMT -5
I feel that we didnโt get enough pages dedicated to learning about the Tribeโs customs and traditions in the books they were featured in. Like what some people have said, I would have loved it if the Tribeโs adventures were more standalone similar to how SkyClan was treated. It would have given them time to be actual characters instead of one dimensional characters with only a few traits. I wish that they had more of a bigger role to play in the Omen of the Stars plot. It would have been cool to see them and their ancestors (other than Fallen Leaves and the few ancient cats that did) show up in the Great Battle to help their modern counterparts. That really wouldโve nicely tied together the whole โyou must journey to the mountainsโ thing in OOTS. Like, what if Jayfeather had mentioned to Crag that the Dark Forest was a threat, or the Tribe of Endless Hunting told the new Stoneteller (Crag) about the threat so they could help the Clans for a change. It wouldโve made Jayfeather needing to go to the mountains and picking the new Stoneteller that much more meaningful if it played any significant part at all in the main plot of the arc. Like, at least when they go in PO3 it gives Lionpaw the opportunity to discover his power (though that easily couldโve been done in a battle with another Clan instead). But the journey in OOTS is pointless.
|
|