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Post by wheeledwarrior on Mar 19, 2021 11:33:06 GMT -5
Daisy- same problem with her too, to be honest. Clovertail and Ferncloud at least had training in fighting and other survival skills, but Daisy doesn’t even have much of that. And if Clovertail could learn even if she wasn’t good at either, why couldn’t Daisy? Daisy actually did learn to fight, though, she just wasn't very successful. It was part of the reason why she spent so much time with Cloudtail in the first place, and even when she wants to give up, she doesn't. And in TLH, she's even mentioned to be fighting against the Dark Forest, literally slamming one of them to the ground. I know she does in the last hope, but by then it feels like it’s too little too late. And it was more basic fighting techniques out of desperation than anything, if I remember. She doesn’t even use them again after that. I feel like it would’ve made more sense for her to be like Ferncloud or Clovertail, where she learned those techniques initially but then decided that her talents lie elsewhere. I know she had a session with Cloudtail, but it was only once and she didn’t really understand the concept.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Mar 19, 2021 14:18:55 GMT -5
Dovewing and Tigerheartstar2.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 19, 2021 15:42:51 GMT -5
How is her disability worse than it is portrayed in the series? I don't know much about this topic and I'm genuinely curious, though from what I've read from fans criticizing the series' disabled representation, cats who are paralyzed are able to get around better than the series portrays it (like people have posted videos of them running around pretty nimbly). There is an essay called the truth about briarlight that explains it. It’s not so much the paralysis as it is where are the injury occurred (The spinal cord) and the fact that the cats don’t have access to many treatments for it. As a result, things like sores, being unable to control bodily functions, internal organs at risk of issues (I believe one of them was infection, organs rotting, or otherwise some sort of atrophy, but I don’t remember the specifics; it did explain that the issues with them would just get worse and worse), breathing problems to the point where she would just be drowning in fluid if she didn’t get something like pneumonia, and even dystentry (i’m probably not spelling it right; it’s the disease characters can die from in the Oregon Trail games). According to the essay, the prognosis for cats with that damage from The type of injury Briarlight has is so bad that a lot of them are just euthanized right away. The essay pointed out that well it makes sense for a human to survive and live a quality life thanks to treatments that are available, it doesn’t make sense for a feral cat and if the series were more realistic, Briarlight would have no quality of life at all, and the author theorized that one point she might’ve even asked to be mercy killed or should have. But of course the series glosses over all of that. It’s just another example of the characters being human is a bit too much, and probably not a lot of research done. I can’t find the essay now anymore, but maybe you would be able to find it in an archive of some sort (it was posted on the Warriors wiki as a discussion thread). It was very interesting, but also very sad. EDIT: I found the post. It is under Blogclan and a different name now, but it is the same. This post sums up the issues I have with the character from someone that also liked the character but didn’t like how the disability was handled. Unfortunately, the comments that one into a bit more detail The problem with humans being treated versus feral cats and a bit more insight on how Millie reacted to the whole thing are gone, but the original article is still there. It can be read here: blogclan.katecary.co.uk/2016/10/26/anatomy-medicine-mercy-and-spines-oh-my-by-cloudwhisper/comment-page-1/You are correct medically but this series already gets enough hate for icing Snowkit. Imagine the kind of outrage people would have had if we had a Briarlight mercy killing. There'd be mass outrage if that took place.
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Post by halogen on Mar 19, 2021 16:17:12 GMT -5
There is an essay called the truth about briarlight that explains it. It’s not so much the paralysis as it is where are the injury occurred (The spinal cord) and the fact that the cats don’t have access to many treatments for it. As a result, things like sores, being unable to control bodily functions, internal organs at risk of issues (I believe one of them was infection, organs rotting, or otherwise some sort of atrophy, but I don’t remember the specifics; it did explain that the issues with them would just get worse and worse), breathing problems to the point where she would just be drowning in fluid if she didn’t get something like pneumonia, and even dystentry (i’m probably not spelling it right; it’s the disease characters can die from in the Oregon Trail games). According to the essay, the prognosis for cats with that damage from The type of injury Briarlight has is so bad that a lot of them are just euthanized right away. The essay pointed out that well it makes sense for a human to survive and live a quality life thanks to treatments that are available, it doesn’t make sense for a feral cat and if the series were more realistic, Briarlight would have no quality of life at all, and the author theorized that one point she might’ve even asked to be mercy killed or should have. But of course the series glosses over all of that. It’s just another example of the characters being human is a bit too much, and probably not a lot of research done. I can’t find the essay now anymore, but maybe you would be able to find it in an archive of some sort (it was posted on the Warriors wiki as a discussion thread). It was very interesting, but also very sad. EDIT: I found the post. It is under Blogclan and a different name now, but it is the same. This post sums up the issues I have with the character from someone that also liked the character but didn’t like how the disability was handled. Unfortunately, the comments that one into a bit more detail The problem with humans being treated versus feral cats and a bit more insight on how Millie reacted to the whole thing are gone, but the original article is still there. It can be read here: blogclan.katecary.co.uk/2016/10/26/anatomy-medicine-mercy-and-spines-oh-my-by-cloudwhisper/comment-page-1/You are correct medically but this series already gets enough hate for icing Snowkit. Imagine the kind of outrage people would have had if we had a Briarlight mercy killing. There'd be mass outrage if that took place. I feel like the series would be able to better get away with playing Briarlight's situation for realism if they treated other characters with more relatively minor disabilities realistically in a positive way (like injuries like Cinderpelt's not stopping them from being a warrior), and just treated the characters with more minor disabilities better. It's the context that would make something like mercy-killing Briarlight look bad, taken by itself in a series that treats cats with disabilities well there would be no problem with it. Given that it was earlier established that ShadowClan does mercy killing and ThunderClan doesn't (and maybe that's just what they did with Wildfur), it could set up a conflict, maybe could tie in with the conflict between the ThunderClan and ShadowClan medicine cats in Night Whispers, where it's not just "oh StarClan is telling us to withhold herbs from each other" but "Littlecloud and Flametail want me to murder a cat", "Jayfeather is keeping a cat alive to torture her". Add to that how Jayfeather didn't condemn doing it like Leafpool did, but thought it was a good idea for all the wrong reasons (wanting power over life and death, rather than actual compassion for the cats in question), you could have a situation where Jayfeather kind of wants to kill Briarlight, out of spite for Leafpool and to appease ShadowClan, and because who cares "when StarClan wants a cat to die" or whatever excuse Leafpool has, and has to confront the fact that even if his instinct is right, he's not really doing it for her, but for himself. And then for more realism, it could show how paralyzed cats can actually get around way better than the series shows, so Briarlight herself would be genuinely able to perform some warrior duties and happy, even as the medicine cats all know she's doomed.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 19, 2021 16:59:43 GMT -5
You are correct medically but this series already gets enough hate for icing Snowkit. Imagine the kind of outrage people would have had if we had a Briarlight mercy killing. There'd be mass outrage if that took place. I feel like the series would be able to better get away with playing Briarlight's situation for realism if they treated other characters with more relatively minor disabilities realistically in a positive way (like injuries like Cinderpelt's not stopping them from being a warrior), and just treated the characters with more minor disabilities better. It's the context that would make something like mercy-killing Briarlight look bad, taken by itself in a series that treats cats with disabilities well there would be no problem with it. Given that it was earlier established that ShadowClan does mercy killing and ThunderClan doesn't (and maybe that's just what they did with Wildfur), it could set up a conflict, maybe could tie in with the conflict between the ThunderClan and ShadowClan medicine cats in Night Whispers, where it's not just "oh StarClan is telling us to withhold herbs from each other" but "Littlecloud and Flametail want me to murder a cat", "Jayfeather is keeping a cat alive to torture her". Add to that how Jayfeather didn't condemn doing it like Leafpool did, but thought it was a good idea for all the wrong reasons (wanting power over life and death, rather than actual compassion for the cats in question), you could have a situation where Jayfeather kind of wants to kill Briarlight, out of spite for Leafpool and to appease ShadowClan, and because who cares "when StarClan wants a cat to die" or whatever excuse Leafpool has, and has to confront the fact that even if his instinct is right, he's not really doing it for her, but for himself. And then for more realism, it could show how paralyzed cats can actually get around way better than the series shows, so Briarlight herself would be genuinely able to perform some warrior duties and happy, even as the medicine cats all know she's doomed. Even assuming they had done that, I really can't see any world where people would take that well. Briarlight in your proposed version would essentially become kind of a prop being passed around between medicine cats as a bludgeon in an ideological debate, it wouldn't exactly be good characterization. I'd argue that would actually be worse if it's made about Jayfeather and Leafpool in terms of the implications. As an aside That isn't realistic at all. We know what happens to actual wild cats when their spine is maimed, they drag themselves with agonizing slowness by their front legs. Which is pretty much exactly what Briarlight does. Cute videos of housepets moving rapidly on slick floors is not remotely the same as hauling yourself over rocks, grass, and foliage day in and day out. Paralyzed cats DO NOT get around well in wild conditions and Warriors is pretty accurate in that depiction. There's plenty of videos of lion cubs who got maimed by buffalo that show exactly what it looks like, and it's pretty much dead on accurate to Briarlight's sluggish movement.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 19, 2021 21:53:25 GMT -5
Personally...I feel like the Erins just aren't that good at writing disabled representation tbh. I feel like they don't really know how to deal with certain characters in a setting that is realistic but also has fantasy elements to it.
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Post by crowspirit on Mar 20, 2021 4:58:19 GMT -5
Bristlefrost. She just irritates the hell out of me. To me she feels like she wants to be Ivypool but utterly failed.
Tigerheartstar. He's arguably the best leader in TBC but I still can't like him because of what he did in TRS and SqH.
Swiftpaw. The only thing I remember him doing apart from dying was telling ShadowClan that ThunderClan was sheltering Brokenstar, which did not end well.
Skystar. He's one of the most complex characters in Warriors, which I usually really like but I still can't stand the dude.
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Post by leapoffaith on Mar 20, 2021 16:02:04 GMT -5
Dovewing. I think she's so cute how people draw her but idk just can't bring myself to like her
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Bisexual
barley
Bramblestar Hater
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Post by barley on Mar 20, 2021 16:04:33 GMT -5
Hollyleaf and Ivypool, I usually love their tropes and characters like them but ... i just dont like them.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Mar 21, 2021 12:13:08 GMT -5
I may as well add Dovewing on here. I was neutral on her in the beginning, felt a bit sorry for her when it was revealed how much the prophecy and The issues with her sister weighed on her, and hated her in Tigerheart’s Shadow. I’m glad that she finally got a happy ending after everything that happened to her, but I got frustrated that she more or less abandoned everything she stood for abruptly (as opposed to trying as much she could to work things out and think things through). I predicted something like that might happen considering what was going on in her life, but it still frustrates me that there wasn’t more of a build up.
Ivypool goes on here as well. I was neutral at first, but after all the sister of the drama that never healthily got resolved, I disliked her. Someone on another thread I read a while ago mentioned that Ivypool was as much to blame for Dovewing Abandoning her Clan as Dovewing herself was (complete with the book quotes which I don’t remember). If the sister just sat down and talked and try to understand each other instead of constantly having conflict (regardless of how justified it was or how valid the concern was), The whole issue of Dovewing abandoning her family might never of happened.
I guess I’m more or less just frustrated because it doesn’t seem like anyone has a healthy relationship and warriors or they are few and far between (or just not expanded upon). I get that unhealthy relationships make more drama, but it gets frustrating to read. I have to wonder how many of the problems will be resolved if A mediator were in every Clan and the problems were caught and resolved before it was too late...
I might also be a bit harsher on Ivypool and Dovewing because a similar situation happened to my family, two of the people involved took the same action as Dovewing, things were never properly resolved, still aren’t, and probably never will be. And the consequences were disastrous for everyone else left behind. So it would’ve been nice if the issue in the books resolved with a healthy understanding or just happily for almost everyone. But it wasn’t, and I find that frustrating...
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Mar 21, 2021 12:32:14 GMT -5
Ivypool Dovewing Twigbranch Violetshine Alderheart Shadowsight Rootspring Bristlefrost
I know that's all the most recent protags but I just find them all a mixture of boring or annoying
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Post by tallshadowstar on Mar 21, 2021 16:09:23 GMT -5
I may as well add Ivypool (from AVOS-present) to my list, primarily because of her relationship with her sister. I understood her grievances with Dovewing in OOTS and I liked her a lot there, but the fact that the conflict just kept being drawn out really hurt her character.
Ivypool and Dovewing are both grown adults in AVOS, and yet Ivypool continues to act like the same angsty teen that she was in the previous arc. It was wrong of Dovewing to vanish without warning; that would make anyone upset and angry. But Ivypool refuses to acknowledge that Dovewing has her own agency, and a life outside of her sister. People say that Dovewing is selfish, and she is to an extent, but honestly I feel that Ivypool comes off as the selfish one in the sister dynamic just as much. She's allowed to dislike her sister's relationship with Tigerheart, but refusing to talk to Dovewing when she needs her the most, unless she drops her boyfriend, is just petty. Meanwhile, Dovewing asks her sister to keep her illegal relationship a secret, and I get that there would be a breaking point for Ivypool after a while. It's just such an unhealthy dynamic from both sides, and it was insufferable to read through.
At least they've FINALLY put an end to the petty sister conflict in TBC. Too bad that Ivypool has now been relegated to 'generic parent character' and is rarely seen doing anything of importance. Dovewing still gets plot importance, and honestly I think she's very sweet in TBC, so she's redeemed herself to me. Ivypool still hasn't.
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