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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Mar 4, 2021 10:29:19 GMT -5
Bramblestar and Squirrelflight have argued and had break-ups due to many issues.
One argument had to do with Brambleclaw wanting to get to know his half-brother, his kin, better, but Squirrelflight didn’t trust Hawkfrost and accused Brambleclaw of being besotted with him. Should Brambleclaw have listened to Squirrelflight and opened up his eyes to Hawkfrost's true nature? Should Squirrelflight have been less judgmental and more respectful of Brambleclaw's wish since he had no kin (besides Goldenflower) in his Clan?
The second was when Squirrelflight lied about her and Brambleclaw being the parents of the Three in order to protect Leafpool and Brambleclaw felt like Squirrelflight should have told him the truth so he could have helped. Should Squirrelflight have told the truth to Brambleclaw even if the secret could hurt him? Should Brambleclaw not have given Squirrelflight such cold treatment for so long?
The most recent one was when Squirrelflight felt they needed to protect the Sisters and Moonlight's unborn kits while Brambleclaw wanted to keep peace within the Clans, even if it meant war against the Sisters. Should Squirrelflight have obeyed her leader and focused on the Clans? Should Brambleclaw have consented with Squirrelflight to wait a little longer before going into battle against the Sisters?
Out of their three biggest break-ups, who do you agree with on each circumstance?
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Post by Snowfire on Mar 4, 2021 10:40:00 GMT -5
I agree with Squilf all the way through, she had the right circumstances and she is always going to do what’s right.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 4, 2021 10:49:53 GMT -5
Brambleclaw was being an idiot during the Hawkfrost incident. Mudclaw confessed that Hawkfrost was conspiring with him yet he refused to see any fault in him, Squirrelflight was definitely in the right there.
By contrast, the incident with the Three was an atrocious lie which led to horrific consequences and should never have been done. Squirrelflight did great wrong with that.
The Sisters was just both being stupid.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Mar 4, 2021 11:28:32 GMT -5
Brambleclaw had every right in wanting to get to know Hawkfrost, as he had only recently found out that they were kin. The way Brambleclaw naively trusted his rather obviously scheming half-brother though, was just for the plot of BrambleSquirrel breaking up for the first time.
Brambleclaw also had every right to be furious at Squirrelflight for lying to him about the Original Three being his kits. Squirrelflight might've had good intentions in keeping her sister's secret but she should've at least confided in her mate about it.
Brambleclaw was also kind of right about The Sisters being a threat, as they did take both Leafstar and Squirrelflight as hostages to keep the territory beyond Clanland to themselves. Although the situation with Sunrise was not something that he solved very well and his submissive stance when it came to his nephew Tigerstar II wanting to drive The Sisters out before Moonlight kitted resulted in the deaths of Moonlight and Leafpool, as well as almost Squirrelflight. In the end I'm still convinced that Squirrelflight was too trusting of them and too demanding of her mate in that regard.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 4, 2021 11:59:36 GMT -5
How interesting! Let's see, I don't blame Brambleclaw for wanting to get to know his kin, but I also feel like Squirrelflight was being too judgemental (especially since Dawn does at least imply that she didn't trust Hawkfrost because of his relation to Tigerstar, though it's not like he was doing much to dispel this, either). This could've at least not had gotten as bad as it had if she'd just had Leafpool and Sorreltail back her up, since they were familiar with Hawkfrost's cruelty firsthand.
That being said, Brambleclaw should've at the very least been suspicious after Mudclaw confessed. Even if he didn't believe him, you'd think Hawkfrost having initially supported him would've raised some alarm bells.
With the kits, I can see why Squirrelflight didn't tell him since doing so would've meant he'd had to earn the Clans' trust all over again if the truth ever came out, but as the foster father, I'd say he had the right to know that the kits weren't at least theirs. Squirrelflight and Leafpool could've even pulled an Oakheart and say they found the kits. Now, whether he should've been as cold as he'd been is a different story, but overall, I don't blame him.
Now for the Sisters. Honestly, I blame all the Clans for this. All they had to do was be a little more patient and wait a moon. And it was greenleaf, so it's not like they were struggling with prey. So yeah, I think I'm on Squirrelflight's side, even if I don't like the Sisters (their treatment towards toms aside, they still kidnapped her and Leafstar, after all). Or at the very least, I definitely wasn't on Bramblestar's side, no matter how many times I read the book, which was all kinds of stupid to begin with.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 4, 2021 12:16:51 GMT -5
Brambleclaw wanting to get to know his own kin was his own right, and just because Squirrelflight happened to be right about Hawkfrost, with baseless accusations from the start, doesn't make her in the right in this situation. She heckled her him for wanting to give his brother the benefit of the doubt and getting to know him better, but it was also his own choice as a character in the end to do what he had to do when he was faced with the truth. That was his fight and situation to deal with, with his family, and Squirrel had no business sticking her nose in it. On the other hand, the situation with the three involves both of them, however, again it's Bramblestar who was dragged into the mess. Bramble didn't drag Squirrel into his family drama with Hawkfrost, she just decided that on her own. But when it comes to the three, Squirrel used Bramble as father-fodder, and lied to him about his own children. After everything he went through, losing his half-brother, both his sisters rarely interact with him, his mother passing away, and his father being murdered with a horrible reputation behind him; all Bramble had left that he could call a real family was the one he made with Squirrelflight. And she turned around and lied to him about his own kids for years. He was hurt that she didn't trust him enough to tell him the truth. Trust is a big thing between them, because it's also the reason why Bramblestar forgives her and makes her deputy, because if you can't trust your partner then how do you expect things to work out. However, this was a bad move on Bramble's part, because after making her deputy Squirrelflight was especially known for undermining him constantly, going behind his back, and breaking the rules. Rightfully she was punished for her actions because her being his mate should not be a reason to give her a free pass for acting like an insubordinating apprentice. Yet some think it does. She not only undermined him in front of the other leaders, after giving her a clear order- she went against it behind his back and even got their own daughter to lie and cover for her. Her actions were embarrassing, even Leafstar called her out for doing what she did without her leader's approval. Doesn't help that she also was more concerned about kits than actual political business of the clans and tried to pressure Bramble into a second litter, her priorities were atrocious. Her actions got her kidnapped, along with another clan leader, who was also injured, and if not for Sparkpelt telling Bramble the truth, it probably would have taken even longer to rescue her. The Sisters were a troublemaking group that were intentionally starting trouble with patrols, attacking cats, and even held her prisoner, yet she sided with them, over her clan, putting her clanmates in danger, all because she was having a mid-life crises about kits. The amount of times Squirrelflight has gotten away with her immature and ridiculous behavior in the narrative is just mind-boggling.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 4, 2021 14:44:25 GMT -5
first one is obviously squirrelflight since she was right about hawkfrost being evil and manipulative, etc. however, she still went about it in an insensitive way. brambleclaw and tawnypelt were seperated, then he learns he has more siblings in his neighbor clan riverclan (in the forest anyways). brambleclaw was clearly going through stuff and was lonely enough to try to reach out to his brother (even though he was naive about the whole thing, he was still allowed to try reaching out to family regardless). if squirrelflight handled it in a more mature and sensitive way, i would be agreeing with her more but i dont.
second one is obviously brambleclaw. he 100% had a right to know about the kits not being his. i still dont understand why both leafpool and squirrelflight couldnt tell him and have him in on the secret. yes, they'd all be lying, but at least all parties in charges of the kits would be in the know together and help each other out in the future if anything happens. as much as i love leafpool, i gotta admit this one is on her, not squirrelflight (even though squirrelflight only took the kits once learning SHE is barren, which is imo selfish in itself)
third one. both are stupid, but i agreed with bramblestar way more on the sisters situation way more. the sisters are awful and bramblestar was in the right to put his clan first like a leader should. squirrelflight is an awful deputy and puts her personal feelings and wants before her leaders AND before the whole clan too.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Mar 4, 2021 15:58:05 GMT -5
Well, this is interesting.
First of all, i agree with Squirrelflight on the Hawkfrost situation. Brambleclaw was within his rights to meet his kin since he was going through hard times. But the fact that he was as naive as to continue saying Hawkfrost was innocent after it was revealed he conspired with Mudclaw to take over WindClan, was just being an idiot and stubborn. He refused to see any red flags, any faults on him, and at this point he was being stupid. He should have been more aware of his half-brother, and thus, i agree that Squirrelflight was right that he shouldn't be so trusting with him.
Second, in the situation with the Three, i see both of their reactions are justified, and none of them are more right or wrong in the situation. Squirrelflight being afraid to ruin Brambleclaw's reputuation, knwoing the struggle he had to prove himself from his father's shadow, is understandable. And her fear for her sister is also reasonable, she was a medicine cat, having a mate in another Clan. And there was already enough tension within the Clan, to the point Mousefur called a clan meeting. Squirrelflight was scared, and even when the secret got out, she felt extremely guilty about it. Meanwhile, Brambleclaw got lied for an entire year that those were his children, so i can see why he was angry.
And again, with The Sisters, none of them were right or wrong in the situation, although i'm leaning with Squirrelflight. Yes, the sisters held her captive, and yes, they attacked the Clan cats, but the way Bramblestar just handled the situation sometimes was just cowardly or foolish. Meanwhile, Squirrelflight went behind his back to try and help the Sisters, homever, i can see her reasoning. She was scared of how Bramblestar would react, and so she decided to try and solve the problem in her own. This ended badly on both sides.
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*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 4, 2021 17:41:28 GMT -5
In the Hawkfrost situation, Bramblestar just wanted to get to know his RiverClan kin. Squirrelflight was right that Hawkfrost was up to no good, but she didn't handle it well.
She had good intentions when she took in her sister's kits, but lying to Bramblestar was a terrible way to raise kits and keep them safe.
The Sisters' thing was a huge mess. She shouldn't have trusted them after they captured her and Leafstar. She was wrong to sneak out of camp to check out the land when she wasn't supposed to. Bramblestar had every right to be mad at her and think of demoting her. He's the leader, and she went out of line.
Yeah, it was wrong to refuse to treat Sunrise, but the whole situation was horrible. The Sisters attacked ShadowClan warriors, so it's no wonder ShadowClan wanted to drive them out! And they'd be mad if they found out some of the Sisters were in ThunderClan camp. Having the Sisters in ThunderClan camp at that time would no doubt put stress on Bramblestar. Remember Brokenstar? WindClan and ShadowClan weren't happy about him safe in ThunderClan.
I like that Squirrelflight tries to do the right thing, I just wish she did it in a better way.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Mar 4, 2021 18:12:43 GMT -5
#1: Squirrelflight should have handled the Hawkfrost situation better. #2: She had good intentions, but those are only a shield to block from her actual actions. Bramble really had every right to be mad at her. #3: The Sisters was just a mess and she was in the wrong.
I should have not written this when I re-watched Satisfied this morning, now it's in my head because of the numbers. FFs.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 4, 2021 19:37:49 GMT -5
I'm actually shocked to find I fall on Bramble's side on all three.
First one is where I'm the most split: Squirrel was objectively correct and Bramble was being an idiot, yes. But in terms of the argument itself, Bramble seemed way more justified than Squirrel did.
Second one is obviously Bramble, no two ways about it. Squirrel was in a shitty situation, but Bramble is under no obligation to immediately forgive her for that.
Third one I think Bramble slightly edges out ahead for me. The Sunrise situation was obviously terrible and lore-breaking, but other than that, I think he was more justified than Squirrel; especially since he clearly showed some doubt before essentially being forced into a decision whereas Squirrel just picked a side from the beginning and kept whacking him with it all book.
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foxstep
loves squirrelflight way too much
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Post by foxstep on Mar 5, 2021 0:03:38 GMT -5
Bramblestar was right to be upset about the Three, she was wrong to not have told him, but him not giving her even one second to talk to him about it was just petty and rude. I get he's very rightfully upset and needs time alone but how can he judge her when he doesn't even know why she did it?
Hawkfrost, I get why Bramblestar wanted to be close to his family. But goodness, him not being suspicious after Mudclaw's warning was unbelievably dumb. He has no reason to be blinded by Hawkfrost's loyalty when he barely knows him. Shared blood doesn't excuse someone's actions or give them credibility. He was also beyond rude to Squirrelflight when she was concerned about Hawkfrost and accused her of judging him and Hawkfrost for their father which was so unnecessary.
As for the Sisters, I get why Bramblestar was hostile to them and wanted to protect his Clan but the way he behaved to Squirrelflight and acted like she was disloyal to her Clan when she was just trying to find a peaceful solution that worked for both groups, ESPECIALLY since the Sisters had a pregnant cat amongst them just pissed me off. He didn't even try to see her point of view, he just kept talking over her and twisting her words. If he had just been willing to communicate and set aside his ego, they could have worked together and solved the issue. But he didn't so it was his fault, not Squirrelflight's.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Mar 5, 2021 2:27:04 GMT -5
On Hawkfrost, I understand Bramblestar wanting to get to know his kin, but I side with Squirrelfight, though she should have been a bit more understanding. I also side with Squirrelflight in the situation with the three, because she hadn't even wanted to lie. She was only lying to protect her kits and Leafpool. However, she should have told Brambleclaw instead of letting him live a lie. I also agree with Squirrelflight on the Sisters. All Bramblestar seemed to care about then was how he looked to Tigerheartstar, and was behaving in a very cowardly manner. All the Clans really needed to be more patient in that situation.
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Post by Rainsplash on Mar 5, 2021 5:29:30 GMT -5
I can't really side on anyone with Hawkfrost, but Brambleclaw was being dumb. Yes, I understand wanting to be with his kin, but y'know, Mudclaw gasping Hawkfrost when he's dying and Hawkfrost willingly helping Mudclaw fully should've raised some 'Hey, why-'s.
On the Three, I can't either. Squirrelflight had nice reasoning, I guess, since Brambleclaw had just earned total respect, and if the truth got out and it was revealed that he knew the lie all along would've been very trustworthy to the cats, and Squirrelflight thought that was better. No, I'm not going to talk about Yellowfang and Feathertail. That's just so dumb. But Brambleclaw had the right to know, still, but he didn't need to be so chilly.
On the Sisters, totally side with Squirrelflight. Who are you, Mister Brambles? He was just dumb the whole time, it's literally impossible to side with him. Well, yes, there are people who defend him but - you get the idea, he was being obnoxious.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Mar 6, 2021 8:10:06 GMT -5
It seems as if Squirrelflight generally has the best intentions, but executes them poorly. Although I agree with her on Hawkfrost, that he shouldn't be trusted, she was being rather rude and antagonistic about it.
With the Three, though I understand Squirrelflight wanting to protect Brambleclaw, this was too big of an issue not to include Brambleclaw in. He had a right to know.
As for the Sisters, I'd have to lean a little more towards Bramblestar. The whole situation was unreasonable, but keeping peace within the Clans is more important than rogues who INSIST, despite being fairly warned, on keeping their home, making Moonlight knowingly putting her unborn kits in danger.
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