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Post by tallshadowstar on Mar 2, 2021 17:30:06 GMT -5
Does anyone else find the line of succession in the Clans very unfair? They basically operate under a non-hereditary dictatorship, where only the current leader of a given Clan gets to pick their successor. None of their Clanmates get any real say in the future of their society.
To be fair, most of the time this turns out fine; Clan leaders generally have good judgement and pick competent deputies. But this system isn't infallible. Take Clan leaders consistently nominating their kin, friends, or former apprentices as deputies, for example. What makes a cat like Graystripe better qualified to be deputy than Longtail, Mousefur or Dustpelt? Basically nothing, aside from the fact that he just so happened to be Firestar's best friend instead of them.
What do you think? Is this system due for a change, or should it stay the same?
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Mar 2, 2021 18:04:38 GMT -5
I think that the Clan leader should consult the medicine cats and some trusted senior warriors, and they should have a fair say in who becomes deputy. The leader should then carefully weigh their decisions and pick who. I prefer this way because if all cats did have a fair vote, there would be extra new complicated rules- who gets to vote and when, who is eligible to become deputy, and so on and so forth. I prefer the leader choosing as it's more straightforward that way.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 2, 2021 18:21:14 GMT -5
I'd prefer a veto system amongst the senior positions. Basically, everyone who is classified as senior, plus the medicine cat(s) get to vote, but the leader has the final say and can go against the vote if they feel it's necessary.
Basically exactly what they have already.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2021 18:40:36 GMT -5
I believe everyone should get a say since everyone in the clan will be affected by this.
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Post by The One and Only Moongaze on Mar 2, 2021 19:00:04 GMT -5
I was actually thinking about this recently. I feel that the medicine cats and senior warriors should have a say in who becomes deputy.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 2, 2021 19:07:04 GMT -5
every cat should vote. it will lower the chances of nepotism (but since firekin are the majority in thunderclan, i doubt it'd lower the chances too much for them). also, senior warriors arent the only ones who will be affected by the choice. so just consulting them and a medicine cat shouldn't be enough. the whole clan should decide. i think if they made a rule about no cat can nominate themselves or no direct kin (like parent,sibling, child, or mate) can nominate each other, then it'd be more fair.
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Post by Rainsplash on Mar 2, 2021 19:15:55 GMT -5
Normal Clanmates would be biased as well, like our OOC-Bramblestar-I'll-make-you-look-good Ashfur was in GV. Medicine cats and senior warriors should have their say, and the leader has the final call, carefully reviewing their opinions.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Mar 2, 2021 20:12:14 GMT -5
They sorta did this in TPB. Bluestar discussed with her senior warriors I believe, twice, when she chose a new deputy.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Mar 3, 2021 7:03:41 GMT -5
They sorta did this in TPB. Bluestar discussed with her senior warriors I believe, twice, when she chose a new deputy. And Hailstar did this (discussed it with his senior warriors) in Crookedstar's Promise. That was, until, Mapleshade made Crookedjaw's prey an omen.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 3, 2021 8:30:38 GMT -5
I like how they do it in the books, as the leader does consult others typically. Leaders also have a few cats to choose from. I disagree with the entire Clan voting because that comes down to popular vote over actual skills.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Mar 3, 2021 12:01:25 GMT -5
I belive leaders should talk with trusted, unbaised senior warriors and medicine cats. That way, the deputy choice would be a little more fair and the leader could have the final say if he's supported by all his advisors.
The leader will usually choose cats who they can trust, but sometimes, the only cats they can sure trust ar their kin and close friends, and it leaves other clanmates who are also qualified out of being choosen. This is why senior warriors and medicine cats, preferably who have many interactions beetwen different clanmates, should have a say. That way, many more clanmates will have a chance to climb the ranks.
And also, leave the unbaised "this cat can't be made deputy because they challenge me" way of choosing deputies. Cats aren't supposed to lick their leader's paws and follow them with a sheep mentality.
About the other options, i don't think the entire Clan should have a say. I belive unbaised, wise senior warriors would be a better choice for advice.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Mar 3, 2021 13:32:25 GMT -5
I found it a bit confusing as to how some deputies were chosen by StarClan and others were not. Both Firestar and Bramblestar had prophetic dreams about them delivered to Medicine cats for example.
All things considered I'm sure some Clanmates would be biased towards each other as well and so perhaps elect someone to be deputy who is popular within the Clan but turns out to be incompetent or even abuses their power.
The current system works fine for me except for that part about certain deputies being more special than others. The authors need a more consistent way of either all deputies being determined by omens and signs or none of them.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 3, 2021 14:06:30 GMT -5
I belive leaders should talk with trusted, unbaised senior warriors and medicine cats. That way, the deputy choice would be a little more fair and the leader could have the final say if he's supported by all his advisors. The leader will usually choose cats who they can trust, but sometimes, the only cats they can sure trust ar their kin and close friends, and it leaves other clanmates who are also qualified out of being choosen. This is why senior warriors and medicine cats, preferably who have many interactions beetwen different clanmates, should have a say. That way, many more clanmates will have a chance to climb the ranks. And also, leave the unbaised "this cat can't be made deputy because they challenge me" way of choosing deputies. Cats aren't supposed to lick their leader's paws and follow them with a sheep mentality. About the other options, i don't think the entire Clan should have a say. I belive unbaised, wise senior warriors would be a better choice for advice. Deputies challenging the leader is generally a bad idea. It leads to a paralyzed clan that can't act decisively(see Squirrelflight's Hope). The only benefit of choosing a deputy who's challenging is I guess in case you need advice, but as Goosefeather smartly put it in Bluestar's Prophecy, if a leader wanted advice they could just ask their senior warriors. A deputy is supposed to help their leader and succeed them, and for that purpose, being challenging is not helpful.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Mar 3, 2021 14:36:28 GMT -5
I belive leaders should talk with trusted, unbaised senior warriors and medicine cats. That way, the deputy choice would be a little more fair and the leader could have the final say if he's supported by all his advisors. The leader will usually choose cats who they can trust, but sometimes, the only cats they can sure trust ar their kin and close friends, and it leaves other clanmates who are also qualified out of being choosen. This is why senior warriors and medicine cats, preferably who have many interactions beetwen different clanmates, should have a say. That way, many more clanmates will have a chance to climb the ranks. And also, leave the unbaised "this cat can't be made deputy because they challenge me" way of choosing deputies. Cats aren't supposed to lick their leader's paws and follow them with a sheep mentality. About the other options, i don't think the entire Clan should have a say. I belive unbaised, wise senior warriors would be a better choice for advice. Deputies challenging the leader is generally a bad idea. It leads to a paralyzed clan that can't act decisively(see Squirrelflight's Hope). The only benefit of choosing a deputy who's challenging is I guess in case you need advice, but as Goosefeather smartly put it in Bluestar's Prophecy, if a leader wanted advice they could just ask their senior warriors. A deputy is supposed to help their leader and succeed them, and for that purpose, being challenging is not helpful. On this note, Sharpclaw has been mentioned to be challenging to Leafstar, which led to him thinking independently about the whole situation with Stick. It's okay for the deputy to keep the leader on their toes, maybe they can discuss issues in private or propose differing views, but an outright disagreement or undermining the leader's authority leads to subordination and a rift for the Clan. As long as the deputy is respectful and doesn't defy the leader in a middle of a meeting, but rather talk it over in private, I think it's fine for them to be a little independent.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 3, 2021 17:19:31 GMT -5
Deputies challenging the leader is generally a bad idea. It leads to a paralyzed clan that can't act decisively(see Squirrelflight's Hope). The only benefit of choosing a deputy who's challenging is I guess in case you need advice, but as Goosefeather smartly put it in Bluestar's Prophecy, if a leader wanted advice they could just ask their senior warriors. A deputy is supposed to help their leader and succeed them, and for that purpose, being challenging is not helpful. On this note, Sharpclaw has been mentioned to be challenging to Leafstar, which led to him thinking independently about the whole situation with Stick. It's okay for the deputy to keep the leader on their toes, maybe they can discuss issues in private or propose differing views, but an outright disagreement or undermining the leader's authority leads to subordination and a rift for the Clan. As long as the deputy is respectful and doesn't defy the leader in a middle of a meeting, but rather talk it over in private, I think it's fine for them to be a little independent. That's fine, and deputies should do that, I'm just saying that it makes perfect sense to want to avoid splitting up leadership sensibilities if a deputy is too challenging.
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Post by Vale on Mar 5, 2021 13:00:16 GMT -5
I think it makes the most sense for a leader to discuss with their trusted senior warriors and their medicine cat it in case they're missing something but I think it's understandable it's up to them as they have to lead together until one of them passes away. Traditionally Starclan would leave a sign if there was a cat they favored as well to either leader or medicine cat to help make the choice.
I wouldn't be against a voting system, but I would want to see it in action before I can really judge. I can see it ending up like the Windclan civil war, where half the clan throws their hat behind one while the others another. It's different due to the fact that they had no leader to quell it, but I can see how warriors will go from doing their best in general to point-scoring with individual cats to gain a vote. Perhaps a leader could go and poll various clan members for their opinion if they are concerned or torn between two great options. Democracy is a good idea in general though, and I would like to see certain decisions polled, especially at the moment in the books where everyone has different ideas on what the clans should do.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 5, 2021 14:43:02 GMT -5
I think it makes the most sense for a leader to discuss with their trusted senior warriors and their medicine cat it in case they're missing something but I think it's understandable it's up to them as they have to lead together until one of them passes away. Traditionally Starclan would leave a sign if there was a cat they favored as well to either leader or medicine cat to help make the choice. I wouldn't be against a voting system, but I would want to see it in action before I can really judge. I can see it ending up like the Windclan civil war, where half the clan throws their hat behind one while the others another. It's different due to the fact that they had no leader to quell it, but I can see how warriors will go from doing their best in general to point-scoring with individual cats to gain a vote. Perhaps a leader could go and poll various clan members for their opinion if they are concerned or torn between two great options. Democracy is a good idea in general though, and I would like to see certain decisions polled, especially at the moment in the books where everyone has different ideas on what the clans should do. Well the Windclan situation was more like 70% of the clan want one guy, the remaining 30% get salty and try rigging the game by calling in help from other clans.
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Post by fangbranch on Mar 5, 2021 16:35:42 GMT -5
I believe everyone should get a say since everyone in the clan will be affected by this. yes!
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Altair
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Post by Altair on Mar 5, 2021 19:16:58 GMT -5
Assuming that democracy works better in fictional cat land than the US, everybody (except the kits/apprentices) gets a vote.
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Mar 5, 2021 19:35:43 GMT -5
I'm against this idea since if it were a thing, great leaders such as Firestar and Crookedstar probably wouldn't have been promoted
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Post by Aku on Mar 6, 2021 1:17:00 GMT -5
I'm against this idea since if it were a thing, great leaders such as Firestar and Crookedstar probably wouldn't have been promoted This is unfortunately true. Firestar wasn't well liked by a good portion of his Clan back then. A direct democracy in warriors would result in a popularity contest to be the next leader. Cats would be more likely to vote for their friends than consider their actual skill and temperament. By having the leader turn to trusted senior warriors and medicine cat, it can help turn away from popularity contests and still allow for some input from the rest of the Clan.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 6, 2021 23:10:48 GMT -5
I think leaders should ask senior warriors/medicine cats for their opinion, but it should ultimately be up to the leader as it's their right hand man and the person they have to trust to not want to kill them in order to gain their position Hawkfrost
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Mar 7, 2021 15:21:22 GMT -5
I think leaders should ask senior warriors/medicine cats for their opinion, but it should ultimately be up to the leader as it's their right hand man and the person they have to trust to not want to kill them in order to gain their position HawkfrostI don't really know why but I'm just chuckling at Hawkfrost.He would've probably done the same thing that his father tried to do if he had stayed alive for much longer.
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Chasm
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Post by Chasm on Mar 7, 2021 19:44:33 GMT -5
hm, i feel like some members of the clan should be consulted on which cat would make the best deputy. the senior warriors would know them more personally cause of patrols and perhaps even mentored the cat the leader is consulting them about. medicine cats would know how cats act when their injured, which doesn't seem like much of a reason, but how someone acts when injured can definitely tell more about them.
hope that makes sense
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