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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 17, 2020 15:28:10 GMT -5
I don't like it. I do not like the fact he's the impostor. I mean, the whole impostor idea was amazing and all but hardcore Ashfur fans and long-time Warriors fans had a hard time deciding whether or not they thought it was really him because his motives and personality didn't add up to how he was a long time ago, back when he was alive.
I loved the idea of the impostor and reading any scene with him involved sent chills down my spine, especially with the sinister vibes he was giving off. He wasn't giving off vibes of a heartbroken cat in despair, though, which was what the series did with Ashfur in past books, which is why I'm annoyed that it's Ashfur. More so because I feel a few readers demanded to have Ashfur either be 100% villain or 100% redeemed, and as much as I like Ashfur I don't think he should have been brought back just for fn service and I don't feel they're giving his old personality justice. I feel like this impostor isn't even the same cat as Ashfur was and it sucks.
Ashfur was written to be a big plot point in Power Of Three, as well as a cat who had gone insane due to heartbreak. Not so much "evil" as "deranged". He did show signs of being angry a lot but you could tell back then at least that he was motivated due to pain from his obsession with Squirrelflight breaking his heart. Deranged cats tend to turn evil, yes, as with the case of Mapleshade, but not all of them do. Quick Water, for example, was somewhat deranged by the end of Shadowstar's book but in StarClan she apologized and was shown to have been misguided by the complexity of her fear and other emotions. Mudclaw was also driven by fury because he believed his denial of leadership was injustice, yet he was shown to clearly be a StarClan warrior.
Ashfur and Hollyleaf were even friends in Squirrelflight's Hope, which makes me 10X more annoyed that the impostor is him, as they were shown to have gotten along rather well. I don't see Ashfur faking that because, well, he never faked anything or made an effort to hide his pain when he was alive. Plus I always thought that StarClan forgave cats for their acts when they were alive so as long as their spirit itself wasn't one of evil and hatred. Mapleshade was fueled by such hate that she automatically went to the Dark Forest, so I had thought it was safe to assume that Ashfur went to StarClan because even though he was heartbroken he wasn't a malicious spirit within, despite his actions when he was alive. The thing with Ashfur is when he went to StarClan I had assumed it was because he had been guided by pain and emotion rather than morals at that point. I mean, yeah he glared at Jayfeather when he was there but it had been made clear that some StarClan cats held grudges against cats from their lifetime. It doesn't make him bad, since cats like Yellowfang and pretty much all of StarClan held grudges, mostly against Dark Forest cats. It's a bit different than holding a grudge against a fellow member of StarClan itself. So for him to turn on StarClan makes StarClan seem pretty useless for one thing, and for another seems out of character for Ashfur.
Yes, Ashfur wanted Squirrelflight more than anything else, so it would make sense for him to have somehow followed her back down and gotten some sort of power to possess Bramblestar, but at the same time he wasn't much of a plotter. He tended to jump when the moment arose. I could see him possessing Bramblestar and all but not plotting to ruin the Clans like he did. Plus as far as hurting Squirrelflight goes it makes zero sense. He was shown to still love her, even if his respect for her had diminished with his sanity, and didn't want her to get hurt ever by anything when he was in Bramblestar's body, up until the moment he snapped and harmed her himself. He was shown to be full of guilt over her fake death as well. I don't see him plotting to ruin her life and the Clans and be his mate though. Plus he never blamed "the Clans" for his suffering before so it makes zero sense for him to do so now. Also, he never hid his pain that much, even if cats were oblivious to it.
This new version of Ashfur doesn't even add up with how he was before. Before, in life, he would have what I would call "moments of insanity". Even though he was constantly in pain he didn't act on it much. He only did three times: the whole fox trap thing, attacking Lionpaw, and the fire scene, and each time was when the moment arose without much plotting (granted, we don't know what Hawkfrost could've done to manipulate her, that's only a theory). He also wasn't shown to bear a grudge against Brambleclaw,nor was he shown to be sneering. Keep in mind that Graystripe's Vow villainizes him before he even was a villain, back when he had the morals and undamaged heart of every other cat in the Clan. He wasn't shown to be "sneering" like he constantly does in newer books and I feel like these don't give him justice.
Conclusion? I think Ashfur's decline into insanity and unpredictability is what made him a good villain. This new version of him makes him into a new character entirely, just another villain clone. I love the impostor idea, but they made his character off. He was never meant to be a Tigerstar-clone type villain, just one whose constant pain threw him into insanity over time, especially if he got triggered by anything. It was about him turning from a good guy into one who couldn't handle emotions and turned insane. Not a conniving sly villain who plotted every downfall, but a morally corrupted one who took chances to extract pain.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Oct 17, 2020 16:21:27 GMT -5
Ashfur's main interest toward her can be categorized as an unhealthy, selfish love. (Mania, if we're going greek) The main reason he wasn't full-blown was because he didn't hold any power or wisdom.
He definitely isn't a Tigerclone villain by any means, what makes him different is that he holds characteristics that the others don't. Brokenstar, Tigerstar, Hawkfrost, all of them simply had a selfish desire for power. Ashfur was an incel driven mad, he lacks intelligence at times, and gets far too emotional. Something that the previous villains wouldn't dare try.
Ashfur during PoT was scary because he could be real. He's a suburban incel with a one-track mind. Give an incel an opportunity to fully carry out their nasty little plots, and well...there you have it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 17, 2020 16:58:43 GMT -5
"“Brambleclaw isn’t here to look after them now,” Ashfur sneered."
""Ashfur heaved a deep sigh. “Spare me the appeal to my Clan loyalty,” he sneered. “I’ve already had Squirrelflight mewling to me about that. I told her, and I’m telling you now—there’s nothing that any cat can do to stop me.” "
He was definitely flexing in earlier books with sneers. Not to mention it was said he had an aura that was outwardly frightening even to those unrelated to his issue with Squirrelflight. Ashfur was a little more creepy than not.
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 17, 2020 17:04:58 GMT -5
"“Brambleclaw isn’t here to look after them now,” Ashfur sneered." ""Ashfur heaved a deep sigh. “Spare me the appeal to my Clan loyalty,” he sneered. “I’ve already had Squirrelflight mewling to me about that. I told her, and I’m telling you now—there’s nothing that any cat can do to stop me.” " He was definitely flexing in earlier books with sneers. Not to mention it was said he had an aura that was outwardly frightening even to those unrelated to his issue with Squirrelflight. Ashfur was a little more creepy than not. I meant before his heart was broken, like in TNP. In Gray's Vow, he is shown to be sneering and creepy before he was driven to be like that by mania. After he shows the cracks in Power Of Three he progresses further and further. In Power Of Three is where he gives very weird vibes, especially when directly interacting with Squirrelflight or any of The Three, though. It made me wonder what was up with him, and was as subtle of a hint toward his later manic insanity than you could get.
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 17, 2020 17:12:36 GMT -5
Ashfur's main interest toward her can be categorized as an unhealthy, selfish love. (Mania, if we're going greek) The main reason he wasn't full-blown was because he didn't hold any power or wisdom. He definitely isn't a Tigerclone villain by any means, what makes him different is that he holds characteristics that the others don't. Brokenstar, Tigerstar, Hawkfrost, all of them simply had a selfish desire for power. Ashfur was an incel driven mad, he lacks intelligence at times, and gets far too emotional. Something that the previous villains wouldn't dare try. Ashfur during PoT was scary because he could be real. He's a suburban incel with a one-track mind. Give an incel an opportunity to fully carry out their nasty little plots, and well...there you have it. Him and Sol are my favorite villains because of the whole creep factor, not being Tiger-clones, and being driven by emotion. Sol was more unnerving because for the first while nobody knew what his problem was or why he caused trouble, and he knew things that chilled Clan cats to their bones. He used manipulation, and was unpredictable in that sense because he rarely showed any emotion in his gaze and tone in Power Of Three, making his intentions hard to read.
Ashfur was driven powerfully by his unresolved pain but he held it in for a terrifyingly long time until the chance for him to act was given. The raw insanity caused by pain makes him creepy, and made me like him as a character. The heartbreak would make some empathize with him and relate in some ways or simply pity him, but still be in awe of how insane he suddenly becomes.
For me the creep factor is how long Ashfur was the way he was without anyone knowing it. The way he suddenly acted out and yet had been in pain for a long time, and had been secretly not right in the head the whole time.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Oct 17, 2020 18:33:52 GMT -5
Ashfur's main interest toward her can be categorized as an unhealthy, selfish love. (Mania, if we're going greek) The main reason he wasn't full-blown was because he didn't hold any power or wisdom. He definitely isn't a Tigerclone villain by any means, what makes him different is that he holds characteristics that the others don't. Brokenstar, Tigerstar, Hawkfrost, all of them simply had a selfish desire for power. Ashfur was an incel driven mad, he lacks intelligence at times, and gets far too emotional. Something that the previous villains wouldn't dare try. Ashfur during PoT was scary because he could be real. He's a suburban incel with a one-track mind. Give an incel an opportunity to fully carry out their nasty little plots, and well...there you have it. Him and Sol are my favorite villains because of the whole creep factor, not being Tiger-clones, and being driven by emotion. Sol was more unnerving because for the first while nobody knew what his problem was or why he caused trouble, and he knew things that chilled Clan cats to their bones. He used manipulation, and was unpredictable in that sense because he rarely showed any emotion in his gaze and tone in Power Of Three, making his intentions hard to read.
Ashfur was driven powerfully by his unresolved pain but he held it in for a terrifyingly long time until the chance for him to act was given. The raw insanity caused by pain makes him creepy, and made me like him as a character. The heartbreak would make some empathize with him and relate in some ways or simply pity him, but still be in awe of how insane he suddenly becomes.
For me the creep factor is how long Ashfur was the way he was without anyone knowing it. The way he suddenly acted out and yet had been in pain for a long time, and had been secretly not right in the head the whole time. He is driven by emotion, in the DW preview he's so driven by his hormonal emotions that he falls for the oldest trick in the book. When Squirrel is down, he starts to mourn. When she leaves, he doesn't wash or eat. Power is simply secondary in his head, and it seems to be quite clear. I doubt somebody with a mind full of revenge who bottles up everything just to blow up with full power would just settle for threatening somebody for a minute or so. Power in the wrong hands can be disastrous. He gets a taste of it, can see how much he can get in favor, hell yeah he's gonna use it.
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Post by Jaysnow on Oct 17, 2020 19:53:09 GMT -5
Can't wait to see the same thing posted by someone else next week.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Oct 18, 2020 0:29:32 GMT -5
I think it's good, and not OOC at all.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Oct 18, 2020 1:39:18 GMT -5
Can't wait to see the same thing posted by someone else next week. That was a bit unnecessarily rude ngl
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Post by Jaysnow on Oct 18, 2020 1:51:24 GMT -5
Can't wait to see the same thing posted by someone else next week. That was a bit unnecessarily rude ngl It probably was, I'm just tired of seeing the exact same thread concept over and over.
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Genderfluid
Cloud
resident Tribe of Rushing Water enthusiast
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Post by Cloud on Oct 18, 2020 1:56:14 GMT -5
His motives seemed to add up to how he was acting in Long Shadows... if anything, he could have been faking his nice personality, but he was definitely pretty iffy during the entire Power of Three arc... some people can very easily hide their pain for weeks, months, years, before it finally overtakes them and they do something drastic. It's not as uncommon as you'd think.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 18, 2020 4:23:05 GMT -5
Imo, I think a lot of fans were easily able to guess it was Ashfur. I feel the divide in the fandom wasn't because half couldn't recognize it was him, it was because they were in denial it was him. And then tried to think of every other possible answer that wasn't him because some hated the idea of Ashfur's plot continuing, etc. The books, especially over time, really made it obvious, axing out other choices especially because of the impostors obsession with Squirrel. I personally found it a little ridiculous that even after an in-book confirmation that some are still in denial about it being Ashfur.
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Post by The One and Only Moongaze on Oct 18, 2020 9:08:05 GMT -5
I hate Ashfur
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Post by Hollyfall on Oct 18, 2020 11:57:39 GMT -5
He seems in-character enough to me. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to discern his motives and personality. Heck, there's probably some detailed threads on here that make the connection between his PoT personality and his TBC personality and how they're rather similar. We even see the similarities in the books themselves such as his obsession with Squirrelflight, his discrimination against Squirrelflight's kin, and actually physically harming cats when they upset him. "Out of character" just seems like a fallback for the people who don't like that it's him. I'm personally a big fan of the decision to bring him back and I'm happy that his unfinished story will be getting closure.
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Genderfluid
Cloud
resident Tribe of Rushing Water enthusiast
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Post by Cloud on Oct 18, 2020 12:22:08 GMT -5
I hate Ashfur Honestly, this is a fair thing. Not everyone likes him, and it's not my place to try and force you to like him. But I'm curious, do you hate him as a character, or hate the fact he's the imposter? I'm very curious if it's an overall dislike of Ashfur or just the TBC plot choices.
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Post by The One and Only Moongaze on Oct 18, 2020 13:52:57 GMT -5
I hate Ashfur Honestly, this is a fair thing. Not everyone likes him, and it's not my place to try and force you to like him. But I'm curious, do you hate him as a character, or hate the fact he's the imposter? I'm very curious if it's an overall dislike of Ashfur or just the TBC plot choices. Oh I actually love him as the imposter! It's his character I hate. He tries to kill Lionblaze, Jayfeather and Hollyleaf just because Squirrelflight rejected him. Then he gets let into Starclan and STILL choses to posses Bramblestar to get with Squirrelflight and try to kill her kits. Like no
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 18, 2020 20:31:52 GMT -5
Honestly, this is a fair thing. Not everyone likes him, and it's not my place to try and force you to like him. But I'm curious, do you hate him as a character, or hate the fact he's the imposter? I'm very curious if it's an overall dislike of Ashfur or just the TBC plot choices. Oh I actually love him as the imposter! It's his character I hate. He tries to kill Lionblaze, Jayfeather and Hollyleaf just because Squirrelflight rejected him. Then he gets let into Starclan and STILL choses to posses Bramblestar to get with Squirrelflight and try to kill her kits. Like no I hate him as an impostor but I like him as a character tbh.
It was interesting to watch him go from a kind sweet good guy to a demoralized insane guy who had unpredictable behavior. Warriors tends to have cats who you can just tell from the start are villains because they introduce them as such, but Ashfur was a cat who didn't start out as one. I used to hate Ivypool a bit because I would've liked her to be a full villain instead of a redeemed good guy, and I used to hate Ashfur because I wanted him to be a redeemed good guy.
I like characters who are driven insane with it being harder to tell until it slowly unravels rather than being all "Hi guys look at me I'm evil I'm so incredibly evil omg look at how evil I am".
As for the StarClan letting him in thing, to be honest it's on them. I don't like StarClan much and I think this series should make them go back to meddling with the Clans less like they used to.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 18, 2020 20:41:13 GMT -5
Ashfur barely had a unique personality until he was picked at random to be Squirrelflight's chew toy in the love triangle drama they manufactured for a "plot" at the lake.
Ashfur wasn't a "sweet" good guy who turned into a jerk. He was always a jerk. I've had this argument for years, but I will repeat it again: Ashfur never knew the real Squirrelflight, he only "loved" the fake version of her he had in his head. In his head, Squirrelflight is some weak girl who needs his protection and constant help, but if he knew her at all, he'd know that's not who she is and that she never needs anyone's help. She's capable of handling things on her own, and she hates being coddled any anyone.
His love wasn't real because he never knew the real Squirrelflight, so his jealousy and bitterness is all built on a lie as well. If he never loved her the REAL her, then he's bitter for no reason.
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 18, 2020 20:55:39 GMT -5
Ashfur barely had a unique personality until he was picked at random to be Squirrelflight's chew toy in the love triangle drama they manufactured for a "plot" at the lake. Ashfur wasn't a "sweet" good guy who turned into a jerk. He was always a jerk. I've had this argument for years, but I will repeat it again: Ashfur never knew the real Squirrelflight, he only "loved" the fake version of her he had in his head. In his head, Squirrelflight is some weak girl who needs his protection and constant help, but if he knew her at all, he'd know that's not who she is and that she never needs anyone's help. She's capable of handling things on her own, and she hates being coddled any anyone. His love wasn't real because he never knew the real Squirrelflight, so his jealousy and bitterness is all built on a lie as well. If he never loved her the REAL her, then he's bitter for no reason. I disagree. He genuinely liked her fiery personality and bravery. He protected her as a mate should, in my opinion, and was happy to help her. It doesn't mean he didn't love her just because it turned into an obsession. He was doing what a good mate should do, wheras Brambleclaw purposely gave her a hard time because he thought just because Squirrelflight was independent meant she didn't like being treated gently or something dumb (he was always off with her needs).
Ashfur did know the real Squirrelflight in TNP. He was shown to be surprised when she wanted to spend time with him as well, which clearly shows that he knew how she really was. But he got to know her well enough to see that her fiery personality did get her hurt at times and that her emotions needed caring for too. I wrote a blog on this that explains it better but I can't find it anymore to link here since that was, wow, in 2019.
Even if he did protect her when she didn't need it, he didn't mean to harm her or smother her. He was doing what is instinctual for a tom and what a good tom should do. She never told him personally if she felt uncomfortable when they were courting *as moonkitti puts it* and it is something that could have been worked through. He's not a jerk for being oblivious.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 19, 2020 13:47:07 GMT -5
Ashfur barely had a unique personality until he was picked at random to be Squirrelflight's chew toy in the love triangle drama they manufactured for a "plot" at the lake. Ashfur wasn't a "sweet" good guy who turned into a jerk. He was always a jerk. I've had this argument for years, but I will repeat it again: Ashfur never knew the real Squirrelflight, he only "loved" the fake version of her he had in his head. In his head, Squirrelflight is some weak girl who needs his protection and constant help, but if he knew her at all, he'd know that's not who she is and that she never needs anyone's help. She's capable of handling things on her own, and she hates being coddled any anyone. His love wasn't real because he never knew the real Squirrelflight, so his jealousy and bitterness is all built on a lie as well. If he never loved her the REAL her, then he's bitter for no reason. I disagree. He genuinely liked her fiery personality and bravery. He protected her as a mate should, in my opinion, and was happy to help her. It doesn't mean he didn't love her just because it turned into an obsession. He was doing what a good mate should do, wheras Brambleclaw purposely gave her a hard time because he thought just because Squirrelflight was independent meant she didn't like being treated gently or something dumb (he was always off with her needs).
Ashfur did know the real Squirrelflight in TNP. He was shown to be surprised when she wanted to spend time with him as well, which clearly shows that he knew how she really was. But he got to know her well enough to see that her fiery personality did get her hurt at times and that her emotions needed caring for too. I wrote a blog on this that explains it better but I can't find it anymore to link here since that was, wow, in 2019.
Even if he did protect her when she didn't need it, he didn't mean to harm her or smother her. He was doing what is instinctual for a tom and what a good tom should do. She never told him personally if she felt uncomfortable when they were courting *as moonkitti puts it* and it is something that could have been worked through. He's not a jerk for being oblivious. he didn't give her any special attention before she left on the journey, but when she comes back, he is suddenly all up on her acting as if they were close at all before she left...it's obvious they didn't plan this love triangle from the beginning... and if he even knew her fiery personality and bravery, he'd also know she's strong enough and doesn't need to be protected...and "as any mate should" ? that's kinda sexist, ngl. not all female cats are weak and need their mate to constantly coddle and protect them and follow them aroundl ike some helpless kit...it's 2020, why is this so hard to understand about ashxsquirrel? ashfur never knew the real squirrelflight BECAUSE he coddled, sheltered, and tried too hard to protect her when he should have known she wouldn't like that at all. he proejcted this false image of a weak squirrelflight that needed him to be her hero, when that's the furthest from the truth. but it doesnt matter what his intentions where, the FACT IS he DID smother her which constantly annoyed her and made her lash out at him. that's proof enough that it's fact he didn't know the real her. the real squirrelflight can hold her own, do things on her own, and be successful without someone coddling her at every paw step like ashfur did. her lashing out at him was supposed to be a big enough hint. he's not a jerk for being oblivious, he's a jerk for pushing his will onto her's. point blank. no cap. end of discussion. it's 2020. this isn't the early 2010's where excusing ashfur's toxic behavior in the relationship, and shipping ashxsquirrel unironically is a good thing anymore. just accept the facts and stop supporting something toxic by making excuses.
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