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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 20:45:06 GMT -5
I am only making this post as I need to express my distaste for how much the fandom whines and complains about Squirrelflight having such a "horrible life." I am treating this as a fandom wide issue.
Claim #1- Squirrelflight is told she can't have kits
How is this bad? She ends up adopting and raising 3 kits anyways and gets all the credit as being their true mother despite not spending time with them in the nursery due to her lack of milk. I would even argue that Ferncloud spent more time with Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather than she did.
She ends up having her own kits in the end anyways, so this "lie" doesn't even matter.
Claim #2- Her family turns on her after the secret is revealed
This is false. Firestar REWARDS Squirrelflight after the secret is revealed when he hands her Foxleap AND Rosepetal as apprentices back to back. Sandstorm isn't shown distrusting either of her two daughters either. The only cats who turn on her are Lionblaze and Jayefather, but they eventually forgive her and Leafpool, so this point doesn't matter anymore.
Claim #3- Bramblestar is a bad/abusive mate
Both Squirrelflight and Bramblestar are horrible cats to each other, but Bramblestar is NOT abusive. Abuse is outwardly malicious and has an intent to be malicious. Bramblestar is not. Simply not giving in to her demands doesn't mean he's abusing her in her SE. Disagreements aren't abusive.
Claim #4- Firestar, Larksong, and Flickerkit died
This is not even bad compared to other cats like Strikestone (who lost both parents, his brother, has an evil sister, lost his ear, and died before even having his own family or getting the chance to).
Squirrelflight got to live many years with both parents, her sister, 3 adopted children, her grandchildren (through Lionblaze), even had her own 2 children later, was handed apprentices as a consolation prize by Firestar, was made deputy as an apology by Bramblestar, and now is acting leader.
Once again, her loses are NOT as bad as people say. I don't like making things a contest between characters, but people act like other characters don't have it worse than her.
Claim #5- Ashfur tried ruining her life
The only thing that matters for this point is that Firestar did lose a life in the fox trap Ashfur sent him to via his apprentice (I believe it was Birchpaw?).
All other things Ashfur did did not work.
He tried to kill her adopted children in the fire, but did they die or get injured? Nope. They made it out okay, and Hollyleaf eventually killed him, so he ceased to be an issue until years later in TBC.
The only OTHER argument for this point is the fact he is most likely the imposter, so he is once again trying to hurt her. Other than this, it isn't the end of times for her yet.
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I'd like to bring up the fact that Squirrelflight literally blackmailed Brambleclaw into going on the journey with him. She continues to be a nuisance during the journey and made her clanmates back home worry about her for no reason. Instead of being scolded for leaving when she didn't have to, she is hailed as a hero despite not being part of the chosen cats in the first place.
Squirrelflight is ALWAYS shown to be right even if she's wrong. She's entitled and bratty. She started out this way in TNP. Especially in her SE, when she's hailed as being "right all along" despite her selfish ways making everyone else around her act hostile. The clan had every right to act the way they did in Squirrelflight's Hope. Bramblestar as well. He was right to question her, since he knows it's always "Squirrelflight's way or the highway." I don't blame Bramblestar for being harsh toward her in those scenes because he knows how she always disobeys to do her own thing her way when things don't go her way at first.
In conclusion, Squirrelflight's life is not as bad as the fandom wants to claim. They think the writers "torture" her too much, but I say that is false. She gets everything handed to her on a silver platter (apprentices, deputyship, Bramblestar taking her back, etc.). She gets forgiven easily. She gets to have her own kits despite having raised 3 cats already. She gets everything she ever wants, especially if it's "doing what she belives is right", and even gets to live full lives with both her parents, and got to live more than the average warrior lifetime with her sister. Meanwhile, other characters have worse things happen to them. Briarlight gets crippled, Blossomfall feels abandoned by her family, Stikestone loses his entire family and dies relatively young, Birchfall and Brackenfur have lost way more family than Squirrelflight ever has, etc.
Squirrelflight has no excuse for still acting so selfish and entitled and narcissistic. She's not a kit anymore. She's a senior warrior who should know that her way isn't always the right one. She should know other cats in her life have their own desires outside of hers. She hasn't lost as much as others, and if people in this fandom want to make it a contest, well there you go. I don't like seeing people grovel at her feet. People should be happy that Squirrelflight is the center of the universe again in The Broken Code instead of continue to claim her life is oh-so-terrible.
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Post by Fireleap on Jul 27, 2020 21:11:02 GMT -5
Claim #1- Squirrelflight is told she can't have kits How is this bad? She ends up adopting and raising 3 kits anyways and gets all the credit as being their true mother despite not spending time with them in the nursery due to her lack of milk. I would even argue that Ferncloud spent more time with Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather than she did. She ends up having her own kits in the end anyways, so this "lie" doesn't even matter. I think people bring this up because it, along with Feathertail's speech, ended up influencing Squirrelflight's decision to adopt the kits. In LW the text says '"See?" Squirrelflight purred. "You know exactly what to do! I knew you'd be a brilliant mother." There was a ring of sadness in her voice, and Leafpool recalled Yellowfang's prophecy that Squirrelflight would never have kits of her own.' The sadness in her voice implies that she wants to be a mother, and if what Yellowfang said was true this would've been her only chance at becoming a mother. Even besides Yellowfang's lie influencing Squirrelflight's decision, it's just plain cruel for Yellowfang to lie about her fertility. Aside from all that, I agree with your points completely. Thank you for bringing up how she gets all the credit for being Holly, Jay, and Lion's mother when she hardly spent time with them in the nursery. She had some motherly moments, sure, but neither she nor Leafpool deserve all the praise they get for being their mothers. I've never understood why she gets so much praise. Or why she was made deputy. She was a brat in Midnight and she's been one in most of the following books.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:18:27 GMT -5
Claim #1- Squirrelflight is told she can't have kits How is this bad? She ends up adopting and raising 3 kits anyways and gets all the credit as being their true mother despite not spending time with them in the nursery due to her lack of milk. I would even argue that Ferncloud spent more time with Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather than she did. She ends up having her own kits in the end anyways, so this "lie" doesn't even matter. I think people bring this up because it, along with Feathertail's speech, ended up influencing Squirrelflight's decision to adopt the kits. In LW the text says '"See?" Squirrelflight purred. "You know exactly what to do! I knew you'd be a brilliant mother." There was a ring of sadness in her voice, and Leafpool recalled Yellowfang's prophecy that Squirrelflight would never have kits of her own." The sadness in her voice implies that she wants to be a mother, and if what Yellowfang said was true this would've been her only chance at becoming a mother. Even besides Yellowfang's lie influencing Squirrelflight's decision, it's just plain cruel for Yellowfang to lie about her fertility. Aside from all that, I agree with your points completely. Thank you for bringing up how she gets all the credit for being Holly, Jay, and Lion's mother when she hardly spent time with them in the nursery. She had some motherly moments, sure, but neither her nor Leafpool deserve all the praise they get for being their mothers. I've never understood why she gets so much praise. Or why she was made deputy. She was a brat in Midnight and she's been in most of the following books. This made me think of something, the kit situation. In Leafpool's Wish, it sounds like Squirrelflight wasn't going to take Leafpool's kits as her own, and that the only reason she did, was because Yellowfang told her, that she would have never had kits of her own. This kind of makes Squirrelflight look bad, because to me, it seems like she agreed to be the mother of Leafpool's kits for her own reasons, and not for Leafpool, if Yellowfang hadn't mentioned the barren thing, would she have left Leafpool in the dust? Are these two sisters really as close as they claim to be?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 27, 2020 21:20:52 GMT -5
i just think there's a problem in general with a lot of "fiesty female characters" in this series. people put them ahead of male characters who act similarly.
concerning squirrelflight though, i agree about these points. it's fine to feel bad for certain instances she went through, but it's not okay to keep bringing up "poor squirrelflight" in any discussion about her. i feel like people resort to "poor squirrelflight" way too often.
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Post by Fireleap on Jul 27, 2020 21:33:32 GMT -5
I think people bring this up because it, along with Feathertail's speech, ended up influencing Squirrelflight's decision to adopt the kits. In LW the text says '"See?" Squirrelflight purred. "You know exactly what to do! I knew you'd be a brilliant mother." There was a ring of sadness in her voice, and Leafpool recalled Yellowfang's prophecy that Squirrelflight would never have kits of her own." The sadness in her voice implies that she wants to be a mother, and if what Yellowfang said was true this would've been her only chance at becoming a mother. Even besides Yellowfang's lie influencing Squirrelflight's decision, it's just plain cruel for Yellowfang to lie about her fertility. Aside from all that, I agree with your points completely. Thank you for bringing up how she gets all the credit for being Holly, Jay, and Lion's mother when she hardly spent time with them in the nursery. She had some motherly moments, sure, but neither her nor Leafpool deserve all the praise they get for being their mothers. I've never understood why she gets so much praise. Or why she was made deputy. She was a brat in Midnight and she's been in most of the following books. This made me think of something, the kit situation. In Leafpool's Wish, it sounds like Squirrelflight wasn't going to take Leafpool's kits as her own, and that the only reason she did, was because Yellowfang told her, that she would have never had kits of her own. This kind of makes Squirrelflight look bad, because to me, it seems like she agreed to be the mother of Leafpool's kits for her own reasons, and not for Leafpool, if Yellowfang hadn't mentioned the barren thing, would she have left Leafpool in the dust? Are these two sisters really as close as they claim to be? I understand Squirrelflight being hesitant to take in the kits considering what she had to do to keep the secret. I wouldn't be eager to lie to my mate and the entire clan just because my sister broke the code and was too entitled to face the consequences. I think Squirrelflight made the wrong choice, but it's understandable why she took them in. Especially considering Leafpool and StarClan were pressuring her on top of Yellowfang's lie. Also, I don't buy into the legendary sisterly bond they apparently share.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:35:59 GMT -5
This made me think of something, the kit situation. In Leafpool's Wish, it sounds like Squirrelflight wasn't going to take Leafpool's kits as her own, and that the only reason she did, was because Yellowfang told her, that she would have never had kits of her own. This kind of makes Squirrelflight look bad, because to me, it seems like she agreed to be the mother of Leafpool's kits for her own reasons, and not for Leafpool, if Yellowfang hadn't mentioned the barren thing, would she have left Leafpool in the dust? Are these two sisters really as close as they claim to be? I understand Squirrelflight being hesitant to take in the kits considering what she had to do to keep the secret. I wouldn't be eager to lie to my mate and the entire clan just because my sister broke the code and was too entitled to face the consequences. I think Squirrelflight made the wrong choice, but it's understandable why she took them in. Especially considering Leafpool and StarClan were pressuring her on top of Yellowfang's lie. Also, I don't buy into the legendary sisterly bond they apparently share. That's true. Their mind link thing was only used to get burdock root for Tawnypelt, and then after that? Nothing, not when Leafpool was sneaking around, not when she got pregnant, they're not even using it for Leafpool to talk to Squirrelflight beyond the grave about the StarClan situation.
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Post by Lark on Jul 28, 2020 0:43:48 GMT -5
This entire argument bothers me. "How is this bad?" Because, she's being told that she won't be able to have the family that she wanted; this type of news is devastating to learn normally. Add on to that that you have the equivalent of God coming down and telling you that the only way you'll ever have a family is to take in your sister's children, and that's not something most people can even begin to comprehend. How she went on to raise them is irrelevant; the fact that she wanted children and then was lied to and made to feel like she had no other option but to take in her sister's children is blatant manipulation.
So what? That's like saying, "Well, I tried to murder her and she lived anyway, so it doesn't matter." Or even, "I adopted these children because I thought I couldn't have any, but now I'm pregnant, so who cares about them."
Also, putting "lie" in quotes implies that it wasn't really a lie. It was. It was absolutely and factually a lie.
One of my biggest issues with this post is that you seem to want to argue that because Squirrelflight got certain things, it doesn't matter what else happened to her or that she suffered to get there. You're disregarding injustices done to her because she got x, y, z later on.
I don't think Squirrelflight is innocent, but when you can point out the things that happened to her and say, "but it doesn't matter because I said so", it's invalidating the point of even bringing it up. You can dislike Squirrelflight and her behavior while acknowledging that bad things didhappen to her.
Firestar didn't give Squirrelflight apprentices because she lied. He gave her apprentices because he thought she was the best cat for the job. Do I think she should have been given apprentices so soon after the fact? Maybe not, but at the same time, that's a decision Firestar had to weigh, and honestly, what can he really do at this point?
Also, phrasing the claim as "Her family turns on her after the secret is revealed" is a leading claim. Jayfeather and Lionblaze are still her family and they did turn on her, regardless of whether or not they forgave her in the future. Here's a personal example: I didn't talk to my mother for 7 years. Just because I talk to her now doesn't mean that didn't damage the relationship, or that talking to her now means that cutting her off doesn't matter.
You can be abusive without intending to be. Very few abusers think that they're abusive, or act with malicious intent. Bramblestar isn't abusive because he disagrees with her. He's abusive in how he disagrees with her and otherwise treats her. Barely talking to her, gaslighting her, manipulating her... That's abuse, whether or not he realizes it. Like I said before, I don't think Squirrelflight is entirely innocent, but simply calling the way Bramblestar treats her "not abuse" because he doesn't have malicious intent just isn't how this works. Most abusers don't realize they're abusive. Very few people who employ gaslighting and manipulation tactics do so for knowingly bad reasons. But that is still abuse.
Invalidating suffering just because others have suffered more than her just isn't a good argument. Suffering is suffering. Losing a family member is hard no matter how many you have left, how long you got to spend with them, or how hard other people (or cats) might have it. Quantifying suffering in this way is pointless. Pointing out the other things Squirrelflight was given or achievements she may have doesn't negate the suffering and losses she's gone through. Other cats have it harder than her, yes, but she still grieved and lost important cats to her. Would you tell a friend of yours that her suffering doesn't matter because you know someone else who lost three family members compared to her one lost sibling? Would you tell someone that it doesn't matter that their wife and children died because they were elected into a public office?
"The only thing that matters for this point" just feels so dismissive. Just because Ashfur's other plans didn't work, again, doesn't negate the fact that he tried. We send people away for attempted murder, and if Ashfur had been found out, he would have been punished as well. Just because Ashfur didn't manage to kill anyone and was later killed himself, doesn't negate the problems that he caused or the threat he posed to Squirrelflight. It's like saying it doesn't matter if someone had a stalker because eventually he died. It doesn't negate the damage done while he was actively stalking someone.
I think my biggest issue with your post is that you seem so determined to hate Squirrelflight, that you're willing to dismiss suffering that you would consider as valid in other cats. Squirrelflight isn't perfect, she definitely has her flaws, but discounting and invalidating the things she went through simply because you're tired of hearing everyone praise her doesn't exactly bring a valid argument to the table. You can dislike Squirrelflight and acknowledge that she has suffered. You can like Squirrelflight and acknowledge that she has flaws and isn't always in the right.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 28, 2020 7:03:41 GMT -5
Lark already said everything so perfectly, but the fact that this post is so dismissive towards what happened to her is probably what bothers me the most, especially the part about abuse. My main problem with Bramblestar is everything else, but regardless, are we really still at a point where just because the abuser isn't self-aware somehow means they aren't abusive? In general, this argument has never made any sense to me. And Sandstorm never shows that she doesn't trust Squirrelflight and Leafpool, but here's the thing... those are her daughters! Of course she's going to stand by them, and it also shows that she's come a long way from when she didn't trust Graystripe after his own forbidden affair was found out. It wouldn't make any sense for her and Firestar—y'know, the guy whose own leader and best friend were in forbidden relationships and had technically experienced one of his own and also constantly broke the warrior code to do the right thing—to turn on them. The only way this would make sense is if Firestar wasn't given much of a choice but to punish her, but even then, it really was far too late to do anything about it since Leafpool's kits were fully grown. To punish Squirrelflight for taking part in something that happened a long time ago (referring of course to taking in Leafpool's kits) would just be incredibly impractical. Furthermore, Jayfeather is still shown to have really complicated feelings towards the matter; just because she was forgiven doesn't necessarily mean things are perfect between them. Something good happens to Squirrelflight, and people call it bias. Something bad happens, and she gets accused of being overly sympathetic. This isn't exclusive to her, of course, but this just something I noticed recently. There just doesn't seem to be any winning when it comes to characters like her. I'll just end this with saying that just because people pity her doesn't mean they're not aware of her flaws. Some, like me, even like her because of those flaws, or even just like her because they think she's not as bad when compared to other characters.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 28, 2020 9:09:56 GMT -5
pretty much what the others said, minus bramblestar being abusive. i really don't like squirrelflight but that doesn't mean that she somehow has more bad things happen to her than others; all characters have their own tragedies. dustpelt and ferncloud lost three out of their first five kits in horrific circumstances, and then two more that both died young.
i dislike squirrelflight because of her actions, not because i think she gets too much sympathy.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 28, 2020 9:54:14 GMT -5
lark said all that is needed to be said on my part.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 10:20:56 GMT -5
The thing is, Squirrelflight has been used as a punching bag by the authors since forever. She's Kate's least favorite character and it shows in the writing. Vicky let Ashfur get away with what he did to her because he "only loved too much" therefore didn't deserve punishment. She was constantly shat on by Bramble, Lion, and Jay throughout the entirety of OOTS, her SE is basically just the story of her awful relationship and how she'll never get any more kits, the current arc is basically going down the road of her sacrificing everything for her "true love" who she barely gets along with. The narrative treats her like shit, there's no arguing that. And with her being such a central character it's no wonder people would notice how the writers treat her and of course people would sympathize with her. Not sure why you consider it a "fandom wide issue" I think it's good that people recognize the unfairness in her life and sympathize with it
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 11:20:21 GMT -5
The thing is, Squirrelflight has been used as a punching bag by the authors since forever. She's Kate's least favorite character and it shows in the writing. Vicky let Ashfur get away with what he did to her because he "only loved too much" therefore didn't deserve punishment. She was constantly shat on by Bramble, Lion, and Jay throughout the entirety of OOTS, her SE is basically just the story of her awful relationship and how she'll never get any more kits, the current arc is basically going down the road of her sacrificing everything for her "true love" who she barely gets along with. The narrative treats her like shit, there's no arguing that. And with her being such a central character it's no wonder people would notice how the writers treat her and of course people would sympathize with her. Not sure why you consider it a "fandom wide issue" I think it's good that people recognize the unfairness in her life and sympathize with it Honestly, I don't see how the authors hate her? To me, it seems like, they're having all these bad things happen to her, so that the readers will root for her. They never paint her in a negative light, if they disliked her, wouldn't they make her look bad, instead of making bad things happen to her? It's like with Tallstar, Crookedstar, Bluestar, and Yellowfang, they gave them such terrible lives, and made them go through a lot of tragedies, because we're supposed to root for them, and they want people to root for them, it seems the same way with Squirrelflight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 12:25:34 GMT -5
tbh this post is heavily biased. it feels like u dont like squirrelflight bc we sympathize w/ her so you point out everything wrong shes done without trying to understand her pov. shes not narcissistic;she simply doesnt handle things right, but everything shes done, is bc she thought she was doing the right thing. and this is coming from someone who isnt even a squirrelflight fan
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Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 29, 2020 9:35:23 GMT -5
The thing is, Squirrelflight has been used as a punching bag by the authors since forever. She's Kate's least favorite character and it shows in the writing. Vicky let Ashfur get away with what he did to her because he "only loved too much" therefore didn't deserve punishment. She was constantly shat on by Bramble, Lion, and Jay throughout the entirety of OOTS, her SE is basically just the story of her awful relationship and how she'll never get any more kits, the current arc is basically going down the road of her sacrificing everything for her "true love" who she barely gets along with. The narrative treats her like shit, there's no arguing that. And with her being such a central character it's no wonder people would notice how the writers treat her and of course people would sympathize with her. Not sure why you consider it a "fandom wide issue" I think it's good that people recognize the unfairness in her life and sympathize with it Honestly, I don't see how the authors hate her? To me, it seems like, they're having all these bad things happen to her, so that the readers will root for her. They never paint her in a negative light, if they disliked her, wouldn't they make her look bad, instead of making bad things happen to her? It's like with Tallstar, Crookedstar, Bluestar, and Yellowfang, they gave them such terrible lives, and made them go through a lot of tragedies, because we're supposed to root for them, and they want people to root for them, it seems the same way with Squirrelflight. Kate Cary blatantly stated that Squirrelflight is her least favorite character, the other characters with tragic backstories aren't protagonists, and their tragedies are usually backstories. Kate just uses her as a punching bag, and Vicky didn't bother bringing Ashfur to justice.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 29, 2020 13:02:21 GMT -5
There's a lot wrong here but just about almost everyone else's replies basically spoke for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 10:57:26 GMT -5
man, the replies here are really good- love the level of discussion happening. ive never really cared about squirrel one way or another, but i have to agree with everybody above.
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Lesbian
TigerLily
Thinks too much about Warriors
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Post by TigerLily on Jul 30, 2020 12:57:10 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't see how the authors hate her? To me, it seems like, they're having all these bad things happen to her, so that the readers will root for her. They never paint her in a negative light, if they disliked her, wouldn't they make her look bad, instead of making bad things happen to her? It's like with Tallstar, Crookedstar, Bluestar, and Yellowfang, they gave them such terrible lives, and made them go through a lot of tragedies, because we're supposed to root for them, and they want people to root for them, it seems the same way with Squirrelflight. Kate Cary blatantly stated that Squirrelflight is her least favorite character, the other characters with tragic backstories aren't protagonists, and their tragedies are usually backstories. Kate just uses her as a punching bag, and Vicky didn't bother bringing Ashfur to justice. I think Leafpool has been the preferred one among the authors, more than Squirrelflight at least.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 30, 2020 13:11:32 GMT -5
Kate Cary blatantly stated that Squirrelflight is her least favorite character, the other characters with tragic backstories aren't protagonists, and their tragedies are usually backstories. Kate just uses her as a punching bag, and Vicky didn't bother bringing Ashfur to justice. I think Leafpool has been the preferred one among the authors, more than Squirrelflight at least. Kinda makes sense. I've got nothing against Leafpool, don't get me wrong, but it seems Squirrelflight's dragged into most of Leafpool's problems.
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Post by highprince on Jul 30, 2020 16:07:05 GMT -5
My main issue with her is that she lied to Bramble about the kits. I mean, if they're mates, shouldn't she trust him enough to tell him their children aren't really his? It's pretty scummy to leave him out of it when he's one of the ones it impacts the most.
Other than that, I don't really have an opinion on her. She's whiny in her SE and I wish she would retire already, but that's about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 18:38:24 GMT -5
My main issue with her is that she lied to Bramble about the kits. I mean, if they're mates, shouldn't she trust him enough to tell him their children aren't really his? It's pretty scummy to leave him out of it when he's one of the ones it impacts the most. Other than that, I don't really have an opinion on her. She's whiny in her SE and I wish she would retire already, but that's about it. squirrelflight probably didnt want brambleclaw to risk ruining his reputation. its a **** move to lie to him, but he worked so hard for the clan to trust him, she wouldnt want that ruined for him all over again. its not his fault that squirrelflight was dragged into leafpools mess.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 30, 2020 19:01:02 GMT -5
My main issue with her is that she lied to Bramble about the kits. I mean, if they're mates, shouldn't she trust him enough to tell him their children aren't really his? It's pretty scummy to leave him out of it when he's one of the ones it impacts the most. Other than that, I don't really have an opinion on her. She's whiny in her SE and I wish she would retire already, but that's about it. squirrelflight probably didnt want brambleclaw to risk ruining his reputation. its a **** move to lie to him, but he worked so hard for the clan to trust him, she wouldnt want that ruined for him all over again. its not his fault that squirrelflight was dragged into leafpools mess. i dont see the reason to not tell brambleclaw...? leafpool's biggest mistake was assuming firestar would punish her for the kits in the first place.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 30, 2020 19:24:53 GMT -5
leafpool's biggest mistake was assuming firestar would punish her for the kits in the first place. Anyone (Anyone meaning the cats btw) who believes FIRESTAR would punish them harshly are dumb as is tbh. Like, it's Firestar, you get points if you're his frickin' daughter but at the end of the day he's Firestar. Leafpool's worries on that notion were so stupid tbh, does she seriously not know or haven't seen how fair her father is? Did Vicky really think that was ever gonna be a logical internal conflict for Leafpool to go through, knowing the characters? Why can't she just TALK to him in private 1 on 1? I'm absolutely sure he'd vouch for her and make sure nothing happens to her kits! Sandstorm too for the same reason of her being her daughter. God these cats don't know how to COMMUNICATE.
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Post by highprince on Jul 30, 2020 21:01:48 GMT -5
My main issue with her is that she lied to Bramble about the kits. I mean, if they're mates, shouldn't she trust him enough to tell him their children aren't really his? It's pretty scummy to leave him out of it when he's one of the ones it impacts the most. Other than that, I don't really have an opinion on her. She's whiny in her SE and I wish she would retire already, but that's about it. squirrelflight probably didnt want brambleclaw to risk ruining his reputation. its a **** move to lie to him, but he worked so hard for the clan to trust him, she wouldnt want that ruined for him all over again. its not his fault that squirrelflight was dragged into leafpools mess. Imo, it's not Squirrelflight's place to decide that. Brambleclaw was a grown adult, and he should have known the truth. He was mature enough to decide if he wanted to admit he knew the truth if the time came, feign ignorance, or break up with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight was selfish in lying to him for well over a year and devastating him, even if you claim that she meant well.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 30, 2020 21:04:59 GMT -5
squirrelflight probably didnt want brambleclaw to risk ruining his reputation. its a **** move to lie to him, but he worked so hard for the clan to trust him, she wouldnt want that ruined for him all over again. its not his fault that squirrelflight was dragged into leafpools mess. Imo, it's not Squirrelflight's place to decide that. Brambleclaw was a grown adult, and he should have known the truth. He was mature enough to decide if he wanted to admit he knew the truth if the time came, feign ignorance, or break up with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight was selfish in lying to him for well over a year and devastating him, even if you claim that she meant well. true. if bramble wanted in on the lying for the greater good, then that would be his choice as much as it was squirrel's choice to help leaf in the first place. starclan didnt need to peer pressure her so hard in the first place.
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Post by highprince on Jul 30, 2020 21:11:53 GMT -5
Imo, it's not Squirrelflight's place to decide that. Brambleclaw was a grown adult, and he should have known the truth. He was mature enough to decide if he wanted to admit he knew the truth if the time came, feign ignorance, or break up with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight was selfish in lying to him for well over a year and devastating him, even if you claim that she meant well. true. if bramble wanted in on the lying for the greater good, then that would be his choice as much as it was squirrel's choice to help leaf in the first place. starclan didnt need to peer pressure her so hard in the first place. The whole situation is a great example of the narrative not trusting characters to do the right thing. Squirrel and Leaf's bond would've been so much more powerful if she took the kits without starclan's bs, and having Brambleclaw put his family over his reputation would've such a nice choice for his character and a foil to Tigerstar I. PoT Brambleclaw absolutely would've loved those kits as if they were his own blood if he was told the truth.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 30, 2020 21:15:12 GMT -5
true. if bramble wanted in on the lying for the greater good, then that would be his choice as much as it was squirrel's choice to help leaf in the first place. starclan didnt need to peer pressure her so hard in the first place. The whole situation is a great example of the narrative not trusting characters to do the right thing. Squirrel and Leaf's bond would've been so much more powerful if she took the kits without starclan's bs, and having Brambleclaw put his family over his reputation would've such a nice choice for his character and a foil to Tigerstar I. PoT Brambleclaw absolutely would've loved those kits as if they were his own blood if he was told the truth. squirrel and leaf not trusting their own freakin' father is the biggest thing i hate about the whole thing :c
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Post by highprince on Jul 30, 2020 21:24:13 GMT -5
The whole situation is a great example of the narrative not trusting characters to do the right thing. Squirrel and Leaf's bond would've been so much more powerful if she took the kits without starclan's bs, and having Brambleclaw put his family over his reputation would've such a nice choice for his character and a foil to Tigerstar I. PoT Brambleclaw absolutely would've loved those kits as if they were his own blood if he was told the truth. squirrel and leaf not trusting their own freakin' father is the biggest thing i hate about the whole thing :c ikr. Firestar's best friend was in a half-clan relationship and still promoted to deputy, she definitely wouldn't have been punished that harshly, or really at all. Even then, there are better options than lying about birthing the kits. Why not say they were abandoned rogue kits? It would've been so much less of a scandal.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 30, 2020 21:26:41 GMT -5
squirrel and leaf not trusting their own freakin' father is the biggest thing i hate about the whole thing :c ikr. Firestar's best friend was in a half-clan relationship and still promoted to deputy, she definitely wouldn't have been punished that harshly, or really at all. Even then, there are better options than lying about birthing the kits. Why not say they were abandoned rogue kits? It would've been so much less of a scandal. the one time they could have relied on the bias firestar has, and yet they didn't...what a waste
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