|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 13:59:26 GMT -5
Another post got me thinking about this, but does anyone else think that their relationship isn't that great? I mean, it is better than a lot of other relationships in the series, but there was also a lot of drama involved. To begin with, Sandstorm and Firestar didn't even like each other when they met, and if Firestar never saved Sandstorm's life, they probably never would. Then, it took Firestar a longg time to realize his feelings for Sandstorm, and this whole time, he was still caught up on Spottedleaf, it seems obvious that his feelings for her never went away, which is super dumb, since he only knew her for like a week before she died, but then she continued to disturb his dreams, so she like never really left. Then, they killed off Spottedleaf, so Firestar wouldn't have to choose. I know he lived a long life with Sandstorm, and that they obviously love each other, but I can't remember many super positives about their relationship, before they were both shoved into the background.
|
|
|
Post by sageheart on Jul 26, 2020 14:08:37 GMT -5
Yeah I agree, i have never been a big fan of them or sandstorm. I felt firestar was never really that into her, plus all the ridiculous spottedleaf stuff makes their relationship look worse imo
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 26, 2020 14:12:05 GMT -5
there...really wasn't a lot of drama? every relationship has some conflict. but they communicated through it pretty well except for some minor misunderstandings.
|
|
|
Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Jul 26, 2020 14:37:13 GMT -5
If only that friking spotted leaf had never existed we would have been able to ship fire and sand safely without and backfire. Btw how come everyone remembers Spottedleaf but not Cinderpelt?.?
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 26, 2020 14:37:16 GMT -5
besides the spottedleaf drama in firestar's SE, this pairing is held in high regard because they're in the background from then on and have no issues that we see.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 26, 2020 14:39:36 GMT -5
If only that friking spotted leaf had never existed we would have been able to ship fire and sand safely without and backfire. Btw how come everyone remembers Spottedleaf but not Cinderpelt?.? cinderpelt didn't cause firexsand any problems once they became official mates though. she wasw a good cat who never acted on her feelings unlike spottedleaf (who is the biggest meddler and pest i've ever seen).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 14:40:36 GMT -5
If only that friking spotted leaf had never existed we would have been able to ship fire and sand safely without and backfire. Btw how come everyone remembers Spottedleaf but not Cinderpelt?.? I didn't know Cinderpelt was even a factor before I joined these forums
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 26, 2020 14:48:23 GMT -5
If only that friking spotted leaf had never existed we would have been able to ship fire and sand safely without and backfire. Btw how come everyone remembers Spottedleaf but not Cinderpelt?.? I didn't know Cinderpelt was even a factor before I joined these forums even back then when i first read the books, i didn't like the cinderpelt having a crush on firestar thing...and i still don't. i will never understand why people prefer firexcinder as an alternative when firestar never saw her that way.
|
|
|
Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Jul 26, 2020 14:49:39 GMT -5
If only that friking spotted leaf had never existed we would have been able to ship fire and sand safely without and backfire. Btw how come everyone remembers Spottedleaf but not Cinderpelt?.? cinderpelt didn't cause firexsand any problems once they became official mates though. she wasw a good cat who never acted on her feelings unlike spottedleaf (who is the biggest meddler and pest i've ever seen). I didn’t mean Cindetpelt on a bad way but a good way as the one Firestar lover that actually doesn’t have nearly as many faults as the other two Sandstorm= You saved me and now I love you. Spottedleaf= Do I really have to say...
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 14:52:59 GMT -5
I didn't know Cinderpelt was even a factor before I joined these forums even back then when i first read the books, i didn't like the cinderpelt having a crush on firestar thing...and i still don't. i will never understand why people prefer firexcinder as an alternative when firestar never saw her that way. Yeah, I can't see Fire x Cinder at ALL, I can only see them as a older brother younger sister pair, nothing else
|
|
|
Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Jul 26, 2020 14:59:32 GMT -5
even back then when i first read the books, i didn't like the cinderpelt having a crush on firestar thing...and i still don't. i will never understand why people prefer firexcinder as an alternative when firestar never saw her that way. Yeah, I can't see Fire x Cinder at ALL, I can only see them as a older brother younger sister pair, nothing else I also see them like that but what I like about Cinderpelt is that she doesn’t act immature and refuse to let go of her love *cough cough* points to Spottedleaf* or a save me love you like Sandstorm.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 15:01:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I can't see Fire x Cinder at ALL, I can only see them as a older brother younger sister pair, nothing else I also see them like that but what I like about Cinderpelt is that she doesn’t act immature and refuse to let go of her love *cough cough* points to Spottedleaf* or a save me love you like Sandstorm. Oh yeah true
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 26, 2020 15:44:39 GMT -5
Firestar and Sandstrom's relationship is probably the best example of the rivals-to-lovers trope in this series. Remember, Sandstorm grew up in a time where kittypets joining a Clan was almost unheard of and it hadn't even been that long ago that Pinestar left to become one, thus giving rise to the fifteenth code. She would've grown up on the story, and she—like many of her Clanmates—took it a little too seriously.
Enter Firestar. No one but Bluestar and Spottedleaf knows he's part of a prophecy and Sandpaw wasn't even present when he helped drive out Brokenstar. And then she finally sees his heroic side for herself after he saves her. It's important to note here that her taking a liking to him wasn't immediate, but awkward until they ended up becoming friends and later something more.
They argued, yes, but they always talked it out not long after like the adults they were. We like to believe that relationships should be perfect, free of any sort of conflict, but realistically, that's just not true. Relationships are hard work, and Firestar and Sandstorm proved that they were able to take it. Not saying it isn't completely possible, but in a series like Warriors, you kind of have to expect some sort of relationship conflict at some point.
As for Spottedleaf and Cinderpelt, the former was just bad writing if we're speaking on a meta level and if I recall correctly, there are subtle hints that Fireheart felt the same way even before he was told, he just didn't realize what it was until afterwards. Sandstorm's affections were definitely more obvious, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Honestly, I never felt like any of the romances in the series were all that great, it's just that FirexSand is easily the best written compared to all the others.
|
|
|
Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 26, 2020 15:50:54 GMT -5
I'm a sucker for enemies-to-lovers, so I enjoyed this. I like irony, and some people might say "love solves all conflicts." So, the idea was sweet. I'm glad they didn't make it some neverending drama, thank god. They start off as immature apprentices loathing each other, (mainly Sandpaw towards Firepaw), into wise elders who love each other very much. Sandstorm didn't--unlike fanon portrayal automatically like him after Firestar's heroic feat, in fact, they grew close during FoS, and with a timeskip into Rising Storm, began to fall for him. I'd take this to any of the other FireX??? ships, and probably my favorite protagonist couple.
|
|
|
Post by Brindlefern on Jul 26, 2020 16:28:55 GMT -5
You already know my feelings on them. The only big drama they had was the Spottedstalker shit but even then they communicated through that so that it wasn't an issue anymore. And they communicated with eachother from that point on afterwards. That's more than one can say to any other ship tbh. Also I don't see why it's so bad for Firestar to not have reciprocated her feelings right away? If that happened then THAT would've been rushed. But it takes four books for him to even get funny feelings about being around her and all. His only experience with "love" if any was a dumb kithood crush, not anything serious. I feel like people who complain it's rushed would've done so even more that it is had he noticed right away. It would've been LeafCrow tier if they did that, but instead they let it hold until later. Would you really not complain about FireSand being rushed if they had him notice her felings right away and returned them by say, the very book he saved her in? I know damn well people would, as much as they'd likely say otherwise, because it's such a thing in the fandom to move goalposts regarding this stuff, it's much to easy to do it here had they actually had him reciprocate early. I'd take 4 books/2 years canon timeline in any day rather than right away as an alt.
Also PLEASE stop saying Spottedleaf was killed so that Firestar wouldn't have to choose, because that is so so SO TERTIARY to the actual reason and to have to clarify this almost every single thread regarding this topic is exhausting at this point to the point I feel like people aren't listening. x.x'''
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 16:35:30 GMT -5
You already know my feelings on them. The only big drama they had was the Spottedstalker shit but even then they communicated through that so that it wasn't an issue anymore. And they communicated with eachother from that point on afterwards. That's more than one can say to any other ship tbh. Also I don't see why it's so bad for Firestar to not have reciprocated her feelings right away? If that happened then THAT would've been rushed. But it takes four books for him to even get funny feelings about being around her and all. His only experience with "love" if any was a dumb kithood crush, not anything serious. I feel like people who complain it's rushed would've done so even more that it is had he noticed right away. It would've been LeafCrow tier if they did that, but instead they let it hold until later. Would you really not complain about FireSand being rushed if they had him notice her felings right away and returned them by say, the very book he saved her in? I know damn well people would, as much as they'd likely say otherwise. I'd take 4 books/2 years canon timeline in any day rather than right away as an alt. Also PLEASE stop saying Spottedleaf was killed so that Firestar wouldn't have to choose, because that is so so SO TERTIARY to the actual reason and to have to clarify this almost every single thread regarding this topic is exhausting at this point to the point I feel like people aren't listening. x.x''' That's the only reason I've heard about why she was killed off. What other reason was there?
|
|
|
Post by Brindlefern on Jul 26, 2020 16:38:51 GMT -5
You already know my feelings on them. The only big drama they had was the Spottedstalker shit but even then they communicated through that so that it wasn't an issue anymore. And they communicated with eachother from that point on afterwards. That's more than one can say to any other ship tbh. Also I don't see why it's so bad for Firestar to not have reciprocated her feelings right away? If that happened then THAT would've been rushed. But it takes four books for him to even get funny feelings about being around her and all. His only experience with "love" if any was a dumb kithood crush, not anything serious. I feel like people who complain it's rushed would've done so even more that it is had he noticed right away. It would've been LeafCrow tier if they did that, but instead they let it hold until later. Would you really not complain about FireSand being rushed if they had him notice her felings right away and returned them by say, the very book he saved her in? I know damn well people would, as much as they'd likely say otherwise. I'd take 4 books/2 years canon timeline in any day rather than right away as an alt. Also PLEASE stop saying Spottedleaf was killed so that Firestar wouldn't have to choose, because that is so so SO TERTIARY to the actual reason and to have to clarify this almost every single thread regarding this topic is exhausting at this point to the point I feel like people aren't listening. x.x''' That's the only reason I've heard about why she was killed off. What other reason was there? This is from Vicky's TLH notes The very line at the end reads more of a footnote than a focused reason, given it's at the very end of it. But that's never been the sole reason for killing her like the fandom claims. This note has been posted many many times before regarding this topic and folks still claim Kate's comment is fact when it's so minor. Spottedleaf wouldn't leave Firestar alone and she meddled in his relationship for so long that had she lived that more than likely would've continued in the afterlife despite being told in SHA that he doesn't like her that way anymore. So it does make things tidier, but not in the sense of Firestar possibly "choosing" her. Now do I believe it made her a better cat? No, because one act doesn't suddenly nullify the selfish ones and all the meddling in his family's life that she did before that.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 16:41:28 GMT -5
That's the only reason I've heard about why she was killed off. What other reason was there? This is from Vicky's TLH notes The very line at the end reads more of a footnote than a focused reason, given it's at the very end of it. But that's never been the sole reason for killing her like stated. This note has been posted many many times before regarding this topic and folks still claim Kate's comment is fact when it's so minor. Spottedleaf wouldn't leave Firestar alone and meddled in his relationship for so long that had she lived that more than likely would've continued in the afterlife despite being told in SHA that he doesn't like her that way anymore. So it does make things tidier, but not in the sense of Firestar possibly "choosing" her. Thanks for showing me this, I tend to not pay much attention to Spottedleaf topics, because she annoys me lol.
|
|
|
Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
|
Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 26, 2020 23:52:48 GMT -5
Their relationship blossomed in such a nice way, and that they have practically no issues now, it's hard to hate it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 0:04:33 GMT -5
FireSand and IvyFern are easily the best protagonist ships in the whole series (CrookedWillow too if they count). Sure it's a common trope, but I'm happy with what we got. Honestly, the Erins could have botched it so badly but the end result was a pretty cute and healthy ship. I like the little background moments the authors snuck in such as them cuddling when the POV cat comes into the leader's den or sneaking off for night hunting. I'll take some wholesome FireSand over toxic af BrambleSquirrel any day.
|
|
|
Post by Brindlefern on Jul 27, 2020 0:06:45 GMT -5
FireSand and IvyFern are easily the best protagonist ships in the whole series (CrookedWillow too if they count). Sure it's a common trope, but I'm happy with what we got. Honestly, the Erins could have botched it so badly but the end result was a pretty cute and healthy ship. I like the little background moments the authors snuck in such as them cuddling when the POV cat comes into the leader's den or sneaking off for night hunting. I'll take some wholesome FireSand over toxic af BrambleSquirrel any day. I remember in FE Jayfeather saw them both sleeping together on the High Rock and went he got into Firestar's head he saw nothing but dreams of them night hunting together and next a mention of how they do it when everyone's gone to sleep for the night. It's the little things like that that are goals tbh. I wish we could've seen them doing it instead of a dream but it's still super cute to have that be a thing anyways. (Then again I'm soft for their romantic moments)
|
|
|
Post by alphayamergo on Jul 27, 2020 0:38:01 GMT -5
Listen, we've got low standards in the Warriors fandom. If a ship keeps its drama to their own arc, then they're cool.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 27, 2020 13:20:25 GMT -5
I don't care for them. I think it's stereotypical and boring for a main pairing, and it's pathetic that it's so sensitive that the Erins had to kill off Spottedleaf a second time because of it. Like...that's pretty funny to me.
My preferred alternative is FireCinder, and has been for a long time. I guess I just genuinely enjoyed Firestar and Cinderpelt's friendship, which was honestly much more realistic to me than FireSand or FireSpotted. Cinderpelt actually respected and admired Firestar from the start, and Firestar saw a lot of potential in her and goes to her a lot for guidance. I could feel the warmth between them when they spoke from the heart to one another, especially when they went on a walk together in the forest. In general, Cinder was always there to support Fire, not just as a medicine cat but as a friend and I think their bond was well written. They made a good team, and I think as mates they would have worked out just fine too.
But you know the Erins, they don't think disabled characters in ThunderClan are capable of anything but being medicine cats. *rolls eyes*
|
|
|
Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 28, 2020 9:17:28 GMT -5
I don't care for them. I think it's stereotypical and boring for a main pairing, and it's pathetic that it's so sensitive that the Erins had to kill off Spottedleaf a second time because of it. Like...that's pretty funny to me. My preferred alternative is FireCinder, and has been for a long time. I guess I just genuinely enjoyed Firestar and Cinderpelt's friendship, which was honestly much more realistic to me than FireSand or FireSpotted. Cinderpelt actually respected and admired Firestar from the start, and Firestar saw a lot of potential in her and goes to her a lot for guidance. I could feel the warmth between them when they spoke from the heart to one another, especially when they went on a walk together in the forest. In general, Cinder was always there to support Fire, not just as a medicine cat but as a friend and I think their bond was well written. They made a good team, and I think as mates they would have worked out just fine too. But you know the Erins, they don't think disabled characters in ThunderClan are capable of anything but being medicine cats. *rolls eyes* Spottedleaf was killed off because they wanted her last action to be a good action towards Sandstorm and Fireheart. The authors stated they didn't like her simply stalking and whispering things into Firestar's ears.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 12:35:43 GMT -5
firestar actually tried to move on from her bc he didnt want to be in love w/ a memory anymore. It was spottedleaf who refused to let him go and give him his space w/ sandstorm. its obvious that firestar loved sandstorm more, and they both communicate in healthy ways, respected each other and helped each other. its not the greatest relationship of all time, no, but its definitely better and healthier than some that weve been seeing recently, like squirrelbramble.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 30, 2020 22:13:14 GMT -5
I don't care for them. I think it's stereotypical and boring for a main pairing, and it's pathetic that it's so sensitive that the Erins had to kill off Spottedleaf a second time because of it. Like...that's pretty funny to me. My preferred alternative is FireCinder, and has been for a long time. I guess I just genuinely enjoyed Firestar and Cinderpelt's friendship, which was honestly much more realistic to me than FireSand or FireSpotted. Cinderpelt actually respected and admired Firestar from the start, and Firestar saw a lot of potential in her and goes to her a lot for guidance. I could feel the warmth between them when they spoke from the heart to one another, especially when they went on a walk together in the forest. In general, Cinder was always there to support Fire, not just as a medicine cat but as a friend and I think their bond was well written. They made a good team, and I think as mates they would have worked out just fine too. But you know the Erins, they don't think disabled characters in ThunderClan are capable of anything but being medicine cats. *rolls eyes* Spottedleaf was killed off because they wanted her last action to be a good action towards Sandstorm and Fireheart. The authors stated they didn't like her simply stalking and whispering things into Firestar's ears. Vicky stated that they initially killed off Spottedleaf because she would have been more interesting dead. While Kate stated the reason they killed her off the second time was so that Firestar didn't have to choose between her and Sandstorm in StarClan and in addition to that she said it was Spottedleaf's destiny to die saving Sandstorm. So either way my point still stands.
|
|
|
Post by Numquam on Jul 30, 2020 23:05:27 GMT -5
I'm a sucker for enemies/rivals to friends to lovers. I'm glad that their romantic relationship didn't have much drama in it, especially compared to other official pairings. It seems like a healthy relationship and I honestly prefer that over constant unnecessary drama.
|
|
|
Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 31, 2020 16:53:03 GMT -5
Spottedleaf was killed off because they wanted her last action to be a good action towards Sandstorm and Fireheart. The authors stated they didn't like her simply stalking and whispering things into Firestar's ears. Vicky stated that they initially killed off Spottedleaf because she would have been more interesting dead. While Kate stated the reason they killed her off the second time was so that Firestar didn't have to choose between her and Sandstorm in StarClan and in addition to that she said it was Spottedleaf's destiny to die saving Sandstorm. So either way my point still stands. If her destiny was always to die, then it always would end in her dying, either way. Calling a relationship 'sensitive' because a character made to die dies is just jumping to conclusions.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2020 21:57:28 GMT -5
Vicky stated that they initially killed off Spottedleaf because she would have been more interesting dead. While Kate stated the reason they killed her off the second time was so that Firestar didn't have to choose between her and Sandstorm in StarClan and in addition to that she said it was Spottedleaf's destiny to die saving Sandstorm. So either way my point still stands. If her destiny was always to die, then it always would end in her dying, either way. Calling a relationship 'sensitive' because a character made to die dies is just jumping to conclusions. You can't have one statement without the other, especially considering the destiny statement was an addition to the first one, so yes I can say that. It is my opinion based on the "word of god" concerning the subject. I think it's pathetic that a pairing that's supposedly the pinnacle of what a good relationship is supposed to be in warriors, despite the bar being so low anyways, is sensitive enough to some stalking she-cat ghost that she has to be killed off so the tom doesn't have to choose between her and his living wife. And quite literally not long before he himself bit the dust too, like it's cringey to hear but also laughable to me. It's like the equivalent of when J.K. Rowling said that Ron and Hermione would need marriage counseling, and then earlier the same month saying that she considered Harry being the better choice with Hermione. Despite Ron and Hermione being set in stone for years in and out of canon, it makes it quite a ridiculous and again laughable statement to read about it. But it is what it is. Also just because an author says it was a character's destiny to die, doesn't mean that was the choice from the start, it's just the overall consensus they came to by that point. The time difference, again irl and in canon, between the first series and OotS is quite literally a huge gap. I highly doubt the Erins planned out every bit of "destiny" for Spottedleaf's character from the start, especially considering you yourself even stated that the authors wanted to give her character at least a saving grace to redeem her somehow. However, the choice of them killing off Spottedleaf just so Firestar wouldn't have to choose between her and Sandstorm in StarClan has a clear contrast to something as mutable as destiny in the series. Especially when literally one of the major focuses in that arc at the time was Lionblaze's focus and him wanting to control his own destiny, along with the jumble of a mess with Cinderheart. What if Spottedleaf hadn't died? What's keeping the Erins from just having Firestar rejecting Spottedleaf in StarClan?? He supposedly did it before right, why not again? Were the Erins really not that confident in their choices of writing that they had to do a cop out about destiny to cover up how ridiculously dumb it is to say that Fire would have difficultly choosing between Spottedleaf and Sandstorm? Or is it because they didn't want Spotted and Fire to be alone in StarClan together while Sand would still be alive for quite some time longer, lol. Who knows. Either way again, it felt like one huge joke, in my opinion at least. The Erins could have actually written the FireSand relationship much better actually, but in reality they didn't, and it just really came down to them being the better of the worse, and horribly low standards for Warrior ships. But please don't take offense, this really is just my opinion and distastes towards the Erins writing in general if anything.
|
|