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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 17:16:56 GMT -5
That's true, I just wish it didn't have to last for arcs and what not, I'm mostly miffed about Bramblestar x Squirrelflight, who was supposed to be their "power couple" i understand, and i agree that the erins aren't particularly good at writing engaging romances. bramble x squirrel is becoming a textbook case of toxic relationship. Yeah true, and it's a shame that it's the longest running relationship in the series, I know that technically some relationships have lasted longer, in the books, Bramble x Squirrel's relationship has been the longest, and it's featured heavily in pretty much every arc
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 26, 2020 17:21:30 GMT -5
okay but "healthy and happy" is not synonymous with "no conflict ever". i understand that a lot of relationships in warriors have not been portrayed/developed in the healtiest of manners and that's a valid complaint. but at times it seems like the fandom thinks that a good relationship means no drama/problems, when that's just not how actual relationships work. Hmm...My apologies. I guess I understand what you're saying here. In this series, "no drama/conflict" usually means they're background couples with "no problems" simply because we do not see them often or at all. Many people are quick to point to Fernsong x Ivypool as the pinnacle of a healthy "perfect" couple in this series with "no drama." it's okay, i definitely see what you mean. i think dustpelt x ferncloud is another good example-- they are clearly loving and happy together, but we as the reader never see their conflicts because most people don't show that in public. i get nervous when people suggest the presence of any conflict makes a relationship bad, 'cause that's idealizing an unachievable perfection. i think the issue OP was maybe trying to get at is not that the relationships have drama, but that often the chosen drama is bad; typically it's based on poor communication or half-baked resolutions rather than mature growth.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 26, 2020 17:27:51 GMT -5
i understand, and i agree that the erins aren't particularly good at writing engaging romances. bramble x squirrel is becoming a textbook case of toxic relationship. Yeah true, and it's a shame that it's the longest running relationship in the series, I know that technically some relationships have lasted longer, in the books, Bramble x Squirrel's relationship has been the longest, and it's featured heavily in pretty much every arc i think i mentioned this on another thread a bit back, but it's pretty much impossible to constantly put a relationship in the spotlight (as a source for conflict) for that long without destroying it. there's only so many things that will make a reader wonder if the relationship will "make it"-- doing it once can have great impact and make readers root for the couple. but they keep recreating that drama over and over so the reader just ends up thinking that any couple that argues that much over the same fundamental things is...well, not meant to be together. the most frustrating thing is that bramble x squirrel never really resolve their issues. they have these big fights but reconcile without ever sitting down to talk out what they both did wrong and how they can avoid that problem again in the future. its like "im sorry we're never on the same page ever, i love you and forget it every happened"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 17:29:58 GMT -5
Yeah true, and it's a shame that it's the longest running relationship in the series, I know that technically some relationships have lasted longer, in the books, Bramble x Squirrel's relationship has been the longest, and it's featured heavily in pretty much every arc i think i mentioned this on another thread a bit back, but it's pretty much impossible to constantly put a relationship in the spotlight (as a source for conflict) for that long without destroying it. there's only so many things that will make a reader wonder if the relationship will "make it"-- doing it once can have great impact and make readers root for the couple. but they keep recreating that drama over and over so the reader just ends up thinking that any couple that argues that much over the same fundamental things is...well, not meant to be together. the most frustrating thing is that bramble x squirrel never really resolve their issues. they have these big fights but reconcile without ever sitting down to talk out what they both did wrong and how they can avoid that problem again in the future. its like "im sorry we're never on the same page ever, i love you and forget it every happened" Agreed, the more they drag out the drama, the less hopeful, and more annoyed I become. I think they've talked it out before, but talking it out makes it even worse, because they continue to keep doing it, so they learned nothing, even after talking it out.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 26, 2020 18:01:03 GMT -5
100% agree, the amount of times I've seen complaining about something followed by hating it and moving the goalposts once it actually happens in this fandom is kind of crazy. So, what you guys are saying, is that no one is allowed to complain about things they don't like or find tiring? Alright. Complaining is fine. What I take issue with are complaints where even if the issue was addressed, it obviously wouldn't be enough to satisfy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 18:01:39 GMT -5
So, what you guys are saying, is that no one is allowed to complain about things they don't like or find tiring? Alright. Complaining is fine. What I take issue with are complaints where even if the issue was addressed, it obviously wouldn't be enough to satisfy. Ohh, that makes sense
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 26, 2020 23:54:24 GMT -5
DustFern and BrackenSorrel needs some love.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 27, 2020 13:28:07 GMT -5
At the moment, the healthiest is probably Ivy x Fern if we're talking about main pairings, and probably Violet x Tree after. I'm also tired of how the Erins have been writing the majority of the pairings for protagonist, would be nice to just have a well-written relationship that's long-lasting for once. And not stereotypical or incredibly toxic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 18:32:38 GMT -5
At the moment, the healthiest is probably Ivy x Fern if we're talking about main pairings, and probably Violet x Tree after. I'm also tired of how the Erins have been writing the majority of the pairings for protagonist, would be nice to just have a well-written relationship that's long-lasting for once. And not stereotypical or incredibly toxic. Agreed, and if they do want to make a main character relationship toxic, why not make the she-cat look bad for once? Brambestar x Squirrelflight - Bramblestar is almost always portrayed as in the wrong, even when he's not Finleap x Twigbranch - Finleap was the jerk Raggedpelt x Yellowfang - Raggedpelt was way worse etc
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 27, 2020 18:47:26 GMT -5
At the moment, the healthiest is probably Ivy x Fern if we're talking about main pairings, and probably Violet x Tree after. I'm also tired of how the Erins have been writing the majority of the pairings for protagonist, would be nice to just have a well-written relationship that's long-lasting for once. And not stereotypical or incredibly toxic. Agreed, and if they do want to make a main character relationship toxic, why not make the she-cat look bad for once? Brambestar x Squirrelflight - Bramblestar is almost always portrayed as in the wrong, even when he's not Finleap x Twigbranch - Finleap was the jerk Raggedpelt x Yellowfang - Raggedpelt was way worse etc part of me wants to say that dovewing looked kinda bad for dumping bumblestrip for tigerheart but that's more of a personal opinion than canon narrative. (i get she wasn't into him as much but idk something about it bugged me). rainflower was depicted as the jerk, but she wasn't a protag couple
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 18:50:08 GMT -5
Agreed, and if they do want to make a main character relationship toxic, why not make the she-cat look bad for once? Brambestar x Squirrelflight - Bramblestar is almost always portrayed as in the wrong, even when he's not Finleap x Twigbranch - Finleap was the jerk Raggedpelt x Yellowfang - Raggedpelt was way worse etc part of me wants to say that dovewing looked kinda bad for dumping bumblestrip for tigerheart but that's more of a personal opinion than canon narrative. (i get she wasn't into him as much but idk something about it bugged me). rainflower was depicted as the jerk, but she wasn't a protag couple True, but whenever Bumblestripe and Dovewing were together, they had him be snappy at her in one scene, and also Bumblestripe was painted as a "nice guy"
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 27, 2020 21:09:43 GMT -5
part of me wants to say that dovewing looked kinda bad for dumping bumblestrip for tigerheart but that's more of a personal opinion than canon narrative. (i get she wasn't into him as much but idk something about it bugged me). rainflower was depicted as the jerk, but she wasn't a protag couple True, but whenever Bumblestripe and Dovewing were together, they had him be snappy at her in one scene, and also Bumblestripe was painted as a "nice guy" that's fair. i think fandoms in general can be a bit...sensitive to "nice guy syndrome" and jump the gun a bit on accusing characters of it. "nice guy" is someone who thinks they're owed a woman's love/affection just because he is nice, and then gets angry when the woman wants a guy with more traits than just "nice". but fandom seems to think it applies to any guy who is upset at rejection. bumblestripe wasn't mean, nor was he entitled. they were mates. he realized that she was not as invested as he was and that she was emotionally invested in someone else the whole time. she pretty much left him to be with another guy, of course he's going to feel bitter about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:10:46 GMT -5
True, but whenever Bumblestripe and Dovewing were together, they had him be snappy at her in one scene, and also Bumblestripe was painted as a "nice guy" that's fair. i think fandoms in general can be a bit...sensitive to "nice guy syndrome" and jump the gun a bit on accusing characters of it. "nice guy" is someone who thinks they're owed a woman's love/affection just because he is nice, and then gets angry when the woman wants a guy with more traits than just "nice". but fandom seems to think it applies to any guy who is upset at rejection. bumblestripe wasn't mean, nor was he entitled. they were mates. he realized that she was not as invested as he was and that she was emotionally invested in someone else the whole time. she pretty much left him to be with another guy, of course he's going to feel bitter about it. Agreed, and Bumblestripe wasn't even the one who kept pressuring her to be with him, it was Whitewing and Rosepetal
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 27, 2020 21:16:23 GMT -5
that's fair. i think fandoms in general can be a bit...sensitive to "nice guy syndrome" and jump the gun a bit on accusing characters of it. "nice guy" is someone who thinks they're owed a woman's love/affection just because he is nice, and then gets angry when the woman wants a guy with more traits than just "nice". but fandom seems to think it applies to any guy who is upset at rejection. bumblestripe wasn't mean, nor was he entitled. they were mates. he realized that she was not as invested as he was and that she was emotionally invested in someone else the whole time. she pretty much left him to be with another guy, of course he's going to feel bitter about it. Agreed, and Bumblestripe wasn't even the one who kept pressuring her to be with him, it was Whitewing and Rosepetal honestly, dovewing gave him hella mixed signals. she couldn't make up her mind about wanting to be with tigerheart, which meant she went back-and-forth about staying with bumblestripe. i'm not saying that she should have stayed with him if her heart wasn't in it, but his reaction was definitely reasonable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:20:02 GMT -5
Agreed, and Bumblestripe wasn't even the one who kept pressuring her to be with him, it was Whitewing and Rosepetal honestly, dovewing gave him hella mixed signals. she couldn't make up her mind about wanting to be with tigerheart, which meant she went back-and-forth about staying with bumblestripe. i'm not saying that she should have stayed with him if her heart wasn't in it, but his reaction was definitely reasonable. Yeah, and also, Bumblestripe asks her if she wants to try for kits AGAIN, meaning that they had tried before, and...wait, did they ever officially break up before she got with Tigerheart?
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 27, 2020 21:29:12 GMT -5
honestly, dovewing gave him hella mixed signals. she couldn't make up her mind about wanting to be with tigerheart, which meant she went back-and-forth about staying with bumblestripe. i'm not saying that she should have stayed with him if her heart wasn't in it, but his reaction was definitely reasonable. Yeah, and also, Bumblestripe asks her if she wants to try for kits AGAIN, meaning that they had tried before, and...wait, did they ever officially break up before she got with Tigerheart? they broke up at the end of BrS. they seem to be on friendly terms and amicable again in early AVoS. the scene you're referring to is in Shattered Sky, where Bumblestripe (motivated by purdy's death) suggests they should get back together and give it another go. he also wants to have kits, and when Dovewing says it's not a good time, he asks her to think about it. so they never got back together before she ran off with Tigerheart, but their relationship had been repaired enough for them to be on good terms and for Bumblestripe to suggest getting together again. EDIT: IIRC dovewing does seriously think about it for a bit but ultimately chooses tigerheart
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:30:11 GMT -5
Yeah, and also, Bumblestripe asks her if she wants to try for kits AGAIN, meaning that they had tried before, and...wait, did they ever officially break up before she got with Tigerheart? they broke up at the end of BrS. they seem to be on friendly terms and amicable again in early AVoS. the scene you're referring to is in Shattered Sky, where Bumblestripe (motivated by purdy's death) suggests they should get back together and give it another go. he also wants to have kits, and when Dovewing says it's not a good time, he asks her to think about it. so they never got back together before she ran off with Tigerheart, but their relationship had been repaired enough for them to be on good terms and for Bumblestripe to suggest getting together again. Ohh okay, thanks
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Jul 28, 2020 9:10:59 GMT -5
At least we have Crooked x Willow...:-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 11:14:57 GMT -5
At least we have Crooked x Willow...:-) Too bad they didn't last as long as the toxic ones, like Raggedpelt x Yellowfang and Bramblestar x Squirrelflight
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 30, 2020 22:17:58 GMT -5
At least we have Crooked x Willow...:-) Too bad they didn't last as long as the toxic ones, like Raggedpelt x Yellowfang and Bramblestar x Squirrelflight It's cause Vicky says no happy couples allowed :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 22:21:29 GMT -5
Too bad they didn't last as long as the toxic ones, like Raggedpelt x Yellowfang and Bramblestar x Squirrelflight It's cause Vicky says no happy couples allowed :-) Dang, that's super lame. Too bad that even though she's not on the writing team anyone (at least, I don't think she is?) the relationships continue to go down the crapper.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 30, 2020 22:40:42 GMT -5
It's cause Vicky says no happy couples allowed :-) Dang, that's super lame. Too bad that even though she's not on the writing team anyone (at least, I don't think she is?) the relationships continue to go down the crapper. At least they haven't screwed over IvyFern and kept TreeViolet's issues low on Violetshine's part (Points to the flipflopping abandonment issues throughout RoF but that's just one book) and also Tree's leaving issues are a him problem rather than a problem for the ship.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 30, 2020 22:50:01 GMT -5
Dang, that's super lame. Too bad that even though she's not on the writing team anyone (at least, I don't think she is?) the relationships continue to go down the crapper. At least they haven't screwed over IvyFern and kept TreeViolet's issues low on Violetshine's part (Points to the flipflopping abandonment issues throughout RoF but that's just one book) and also Tree's leaving issues are a him problem rather than a problem for the ship. Agreed, but lately it looks like they've been poking the bear. I'm glad that IvyFern's kits all have personality and moments on screen, unlike another certain other litter. *cough*Dovewing's*cough* But it is low key suspicious, the direction things are going as of GV, especially with Flipclaw. As for Tree x Violet, that's why I think their relationship is at least the second healthiest in the series. Because no relationship doesn't have some sort of conflict. Even Ivypool and Fernsong working out how they wanted to have kits is a type of conflict. With Tree and Violet its more major but handled very well. You have two characters with their own personalities and individualism, different backgrounds, and they meet in the middle to compromise because they truly do love one another. If anything their relationship is the exact opposite of modern BrambleSquirrel, who clash so much they can't even compromise because of their individualism.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 22:56:23 GMT -5
Dang, that's super lame. Too bad that even though she's not on the writing team anyone (at least, I don't think she is?) the relationships continue to go down the crapper. At least they haven't screwed over IvyFern and kept TreeViolet's issues low on Violetshine's part (Points to the flipflopping abandonment issues throughout RoF but that's just one book) and also Tree's leaving issues are a him problem rather than a problem for the ship. That's true! I hope no other relationship gets ruined by the end of this arc
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